Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: JustADude on <12-06-11/1726:41>
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Simple question here, that I'm quite sure will come up in my campaign relatively soon, so I want to head it off at the pass: How would a PLEC (Private Law Enforcement Company) like Knight Errant or Lone Star react to armed action by a Megacorp like S-K or Renraku going off their private property to perform armed action, such as retrieving something stolen by Runners?
I'm sure we can safely assume nobody gives a fuck about the Barrens, but what about in the more civilized parts of the Sprawl, where people actually pay rent and can walk around with minimal chances of getting mugged and/or killed and sold to organleggers?
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In a word: Negatively.
That's why corporations hire shadowrunners as deniable assets. To be able to deny involvement. Chances are if Knight Errant finds themselves coming up against an SK strike force in full gear, their going to be calling in the big guns of the RRT and sending footage of the incident directly to the corporate court.
Now, depending on the circumstances, SK might be able to gain clearance from Knight Errant if they request it in advance if its a particularly cut and dry case (they stole from us, here's the proof, we don't have time for you BS), but with all these being different corporations, you could expect it to be like a jurisdiction battle between precincts on steroids.
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Outside their extraterritorial domains, corpsec has to walk carefully. One of the recent Missions had a Horizon strike team ambush the runners at their safehouse, after word had gotten out that the researcher they extracted grabbed a look at some old texts. If the reward is high enough, they'll risk strikes into areas not under their control. The response by KE would depend on how things went down. Running battles through the streets of Seattle? They are going to get pissed at EVERYONE. Surgical strike on a safehouse that remained contained to one building? They won't be happy, and they may forward insurance and wrongful death claims to the corp, but otherwise may just call it a favor they can call in at some time.
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In a word: Negatively.
That's why corporations hire shadowrunners as deniable assets. To be able to deny involvement. Chances are if Knight Errant finds themselves coming up against an SK strike force in full gear, their going to be calling in the big guns of the RRT and sending footage of the incident directly to the corporate court.
Now, depending on the circumstances, SK might be able to gain clearance from Knight Errant if they request it in advance if its a particularly cut and dry case (they stole from us, here's the proof, we don't have time for you BS), but with all these being different corporations, you could expect it to be like a jurisdiction battle between precincts on steroids.
This.
To expand in my own thoughts.
If for some reason SK (to continue the example) really felt the need to send in their own people then
a) They'd probably try and be sneaky. What Knight Errant doesn't know about, it can't complain about. Squads of armoured troopers = no. Squad of people wearing black pyjamas jumping out of the back of an anonymous van = yes. Essentially, corporate shadowrunners.
b) If they can't be sneaky, they'd probably try and be really loud elsewhere to distract them. Or have someone expandable and dumb be loud.
c) They might well try and claim hot pursuit (does that apply in SR?) or some other legal excuse to get away with it. Or at least tie up KE until they've got away with it.
d) The other way of getting KE/LS to let them get away with it is blackmail and bribery. Depending on what and where they're sending it, that might actually be doable.
About the only occasion I can see
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c) They might well try and claim hot pursuit (does that apply in SR?) or some other legal excuse to get away with it. Or at least tie up KE until they've got away with it.
To me this would be the default. Any extraterritorial corp would be allowed to give chase (in corporate friendly sprawls...aka nearly all of them, the only others being feral cities where...hell...there's not much local law other than the gangs running the place) so long as the corp alerted and informed the local law about the pursuit. If the corp (or the individuals from the corp) are paranoid about the nature of the need to chase the runners then they might not involve the local law...but in most cases they would end up working to capture them together with both spinning the event after the fact to make them look good,
"Today local law enforcement teamed up with corporate law enforcement to bring peace and stability to the city by apprehending criminals who broken into the corporation's facilities, murdered in cold blood several security guards [flash images of corpsec bodies in caskets followed by grieving spouses and offspring], destroyed corporate property, and stole undisclosed data which our sources say may have been a cure for cancer, depression, and cold feet. Local law enforcement was able to cordon off the criminals escape path while corporate law as allowed to corner and neutralize the threat allowing a new, peaceful, dawn to break on our beloved city. [interview with corporate law captain] 'The events of the past 24 hours showed that in law enforcement we are all brothers and sisters, working tirelessly to ensure the safety of every citizen regardless of race, gender, creed, or corproate/national affiliation.' Local law enforcement supplied our offices with criminal histories of the apprehended and deceased criminals which proves they were bad bad nasty mean people who hate everything and kick puppies just because they think it's funny."
I also would think that corps with extraterritorial status would have made (and won) legal cases that "stolen property is, in essence, extraterritorial and the use of corporate personnel to retrieve said property is fully in their rights so long as they work with local law enforcement (i.e. at least inform them if only after the fact) about their legal and legitimate actions to reclaim their property by any means necessary."
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I also would think that corps with extraterritorial status would have made (and won) legal cases that "stolen property is, in essence, extraterritorial and the use of corporate personnel to retrieve said property is fully in their rights so long as they work with local law enforcement (i.e. at least inform them if only after the fact) about their legal and legitimate actions to reclaim their property by any means necessary."
Yeah, that's about what I was thinking, at least as far as the AAAs are concerned. There may be some territorial pissing matches, but there's no need for deniability for something totally legitimate and above board like retrieving stolen goods.
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Yeah, that's about what I was thinking. At least as far as the AAAs are concerned.
Yeah, definitely for AAA, and most likely for AA (as they have extraterritorial status as well, IIRC). Sensitive, secretive, or especially publicly-negative data/property may be hunted in more clandestine ways...but for anything short of "we're testing the exposed brains kidnapped children" will lean more towards going through legal channels. That's the problem with the corps, they've written the laws to benefit them (or that's the fun thing...if you're the GM, hehe)
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I also would think that corps with extraterritorial status would have made (and won) legal cases that "stolen property is, in essence, extraterritorial and the use of corporate personnel to retrieve said property is fully in their rights so long as they work with local law enforcement (i.e. at least inform them if only after the fact) about their legal and legitimate actions to reclaim their property by any means necessary."
I have no idea of how good a legal basis that has but in terms of dramatic effect and in-game logic, to my mind that would give the megacorp a bit too much of an easy ride coming off their turf, and therefore I wouldn't use it. Besides, a lot of that stolen property was stolen by another megacorp, so its possible that so far that's been quashed as an idea. If you've gone to all that effort to steal the data, you don't want it to be easy for them to take it back. Just my preferences though. I imagine if that was in effect, a lot of megacorps would just fake the evidence whenever they wanted to go in there...
But yeah. Otherwise, that's fairly how I imagine it when hot pursuit applies. +1.
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I have no idea of how good a legal basis that has but in terms of dramatic effect and in-game logic, to my mind that would give the megacorp a bit too much of an easy ride coming off their turf, and therefore I wouldn't use it. Besides, a lot of that stolen property was stolen by another megacorp, so its possible that so far that's been quashed as an idea. If you've gone to all that effort to steal the data, you don't want it to be easy for them to take it back. Just my preferences though. I imagine if that was in effect, a lot of megacorps would just fake the evidence whenever they wanted to go in there...
But yeah. Otherwise, that's fairly how I imagine it when hot pursuit applies. +1.
Well, yeah; hitting the runners before they make the hand-off would definitely qualify as Hot Pursuit, I think.
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That depends - if you're following hot on their heels in a chase, yeah.
If however three days after getting robbed you get a tip-off and turn up at their safehouse going "Surprise!" - then that doesn't count as Hot Pursuit in my book. Its not even Lukewarm Pursuit.
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Simple question here, that I'm quite sure will come up in my campaign relatively soon, so I want to head it off at the pass: How would a PLEC (Private Law Enforcement Company) like Knight Errant or Lone Star react to armed action by a Megacorp like S-K or Renraku going off their private property to perform armed action, such as retrieving something stolen by Runners?
Company Men (corp shadowrunners) are semi-deniable assets used for Just This Sort Of Thing. Show up at the exchange, shoot the runners, kidnap the Johnson and get their stuff back? Sure. Do it as quietly as possible? Absolutely. Remember, unless it's immediate hot pursuit -- and even that can get dicey for even a megacorp -- the law of the corporations is 'don't provably shoot the place up'. As has been pointed out, this is why they hire shadowrunners, through three layers of deniable assets.
To get back to the 'hot pursuit' angle, the short answer is: Depends. Is the corp you just hit (Ares) in good with local law enforcement (KE)? Is there some friction (Saeder-Krupp)?? Or are they sworn enemies (Lone Star, Aztechnology)?? Understand that any collateral damage able to be provably laid at the pursuing corporation security forces' feet is going to cost the corp money, and if the local cop corp is feeling even vaguely pissy (they usually do, because being pissy on the side of the citizens will increase their approval rating, making keeping the multi-billion-nuyen contract easier), they will do all they can to provide that evidence. 'Oh, sure, those shadowrunners did some damage, but your cars smashed up thirty five others and caused over five million in property damage. Pay up.'
This is why having Inter-Corp Politics as a knowledge skill is a Good Thing. An example in a previous edition (SR2?) had a runner team running like hell from a Knight Errant team after having hit a site whose security contract was 'up for renegotiation', and crossed into territory patrolled by Lone Star. LS pulled them over, they quickly explained the situation and basically offered a bribe to the Star. The Star told them to beat feet, then got into the KE team's face to demand what the hell they thought they were doing, driving around at high speeds in THEIR patrol area. Know the political lay of the land, and it's entirely possible that the guys who should be stopping you will become your temporary best friends, just to tighten the screws on the people you just messed with.
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+1 to you, Wyrm. This is EXACTLY the kind of things runners should look into.
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There was a mention that Aztechnology has a training facility in one of the barrens of Seattle. I could easily seem them taking care of business during a convoy to or from training. It would also depend a great deal on neighborhood.
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Note that outside of their turf, most of their equipment is illegal and not even permittable. If proof can be had, any company has to pay compensation for the damage it does. Again, this is why they hire deniable assets.
Some notes about extraterritoriality.
Corps can claim 1200 meters above the surfaces around their area. While that is well and good, they can't claim an area claimed by another authority. i.e they can't buy the lobby of a building and claim all the floors above it. Seattle has a very busy airspace, and most of it is controlled by SeaTac airport. That control is sort of an inverted layer cake shape though, so there is space below the layers in many locations. However, Fed. Boeing also has many airports in the area which grab up the airspace beneath the SeaTac controlled airspace.
Fun note: The Renraku Arcology enters SeaTac controlled airspace about half way up. That means intercontinental and suborbital flights are blasting by within a hundred meters every day. Imagine looking down from your office to see the incoming flight from Japan with your bosses.
The MCT building "downtown" is pretty much directly in line with the landing pattern for northbound flights into Fed. Boeing Field. Fortunately, most of their flights can be directed out into bay instead of past the MCT towers. However, should FB and MCT get into a pissing match, FB could arrange to have flights blast by the MCT offices during every important meeting "due to weather conditions". In my setting, the Cavilard Research Center (MCT facility) in Bellevue takes up the whole park/wetlands area south of it. The south end, where the river lets out into the lake, has a small harbor for MCT vessels, but the airspace above and north to I 90 is controlled by FB-Renton. By contrast, Cavilard is one of the few zones large enough that a corp would risk shooting down a plane in their airspace without fear of it crossing the border.
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I have another, related question: how big are AAA-corp armies actually? They have a real army, but how much of one. I assume that corps such as Ares, Aztec and S-K have bigger ones than Horizon and NeoNet, but is their size put somewhere in a book? And breakdown in ground, air and sea forces?
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Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.
From Corporate Shadowfiles:
- Ares: Light Regiment
- Aztechnology: Regiment or larger
- Fuchi: Company
- MCT: Company
- S-K: Batallion
Ares' military may be a light regiment, but it also uses KE as a military force to back that force up, e.g., holding the lines in Chicago and Silicon Valley. It's also hard to define what exactly constitutes its military given the size and functions of Ares Arms (though its official military is one part of Ares Arms Military Systems Division).
Aztlan puts the size of Aztechnology's military at 175,000, and Aztlan's at 75,000. Those numbers are both certainly higher now considering that there are 275,000 uniformed servicemen in the UCAS military, and it's at best the third largest in North America behind CAS and Aztlan/Aztechnology.
In CS, Yamatetsu (now Evo) had no military, and didn't participate in Desert Wars. However, in Aztlan it had at least one carrier group. Yamatetsu Naval Technologies is their military, and so it's probably fairly large.
Renraku doesn't have one, but its security forces, specifically the Red Samurai, are military-trained.
S-K has a small standing military unit, but it rotates all of its security forces through there.
Shiawase got Fuchi's military assets when Korin Yamana joined up.
I doubt Horizon has one. They practically have the PSF at their disposal.
It's a very nebulous thing for various reasons. Though I can very much appreciate why people would be interested. Anyway, the info's probably been updated some more, but this is off the top of my head.
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Big enough to be effective, small enough to be cost effective. :P
And secret enough that you'll probably never know. That secretary pool over there? Yeah, SpecOps team. Those freighter crews? Navy crewmen for Subs that are hidden away. Those cargo pilots? Fighter pilots who practice in Sim while the cargo plane is on autopilot.
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Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.
The 'floor' of the sectional wedge at the Arcology is 1800 feet (540 meters). The Arcology is 969 meters tall. Checking the Instrument approach for runway 16 L (the long one) the descent angle etc. put inbound at about 765 meters when passing the Arcology. The flight path is actually about 2 kilometers to the east, but still, you're coming in semi ballistic, that means you don't really have fuel for messing around. If your vector was off slightly inbound you could easily lawn dart the arcology.
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Yeah, I would assume that the FAA would take a kilometer-tall building into account, especially since the SO/SB runways probably don't exist IRL.
I mean, when the suborbital carrying a Corporate Court justice from Neo-Tokyo "crashed" in Blood in the Boardroom, it crashed in the Redmond Barrens.
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Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.
The 'floor' of the sectional wedge at the Arcology is 1800 feet (540 meters). The Arcology is 969 meters tall. Checking the Instrument approach for runway 16 L (the long one) the descent angle etc. put inbound at about 765 meters when passing the Arcology. The flight path is actually about 2 kilometers to the east, but still, you're coming in semi ballistic, that means you don't really have fuel for messing around. If your vector was off slightly inbound you could easily lawn dart the arcology.
Sounds like an excellent way to touch off the eventual El Infierno-style rampage that Seattle is setting itself up for. Love how people don't learn from others' mistakes.
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You mean that you can't effectively wall in a dozen cities? Yeah, no kidding.
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From Corporate Shadowfiles:
- Ares: Light Regiment
- Aztechnology: Regiment or larger
- Fuchi: Company
- MCT: Company
- S-K: Batallion
Big enough to be effective, small enough to be cost effective. :P
And secret enough that you'll probably never know. That secretary pool over there? Yeah, SpecOps team. Those freighter crews? Navy crewmen for Subs that are hidden away. Those cargo pilots? Fighter pilots who practice in Sim while the cargo plane is on autopilot.
Yes and no. Consider Yamatetsu/Evo; how big is a Carrier Strike Group? Quoting from that paragon of information ...
A carrier strike group (CSG) is an operational formation of the United States Navy. It is composed of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers and/or frigates,[1] and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. A carrier strike group also, on occasion, includes submarines, attached logistics ships and a supply ship.
7500 people, with more being possible. That's regiment-plus level -- and I can't imagine one of the ten largest powerhouses in the world having that minimal amount of force projection for its shipping, &c. To give you an idea, the current (late 2011) total personnel count in the US Armed Forces -- second largest in the world -- is 2¼ million people. A lot of those are in support positions; I vaguely remember one comment that said it took 20 support people to keep one soldier in the field. Using that as a benchmark -- and yes, that could be completely wrong -- that'd be 107,000 people on the field/seas/air. No, the corps aren't going to have that size, but consider the Balkanization the world has undergone, and the amount of power the corporations represent -- and thus what they have to protect.
I grant you that Aztechnology is probably going to have the largest standing army among the corps, just because a) it's always at war, and b) it has Aztlan's armed forces to draw from and trade into, but I think -- have always thought -- that the military sizes in the 'Corporate' books were massive underestimations. 5,000 men to put into the field against someone in SE Asia who's doing some Very Bad Things to you and who has 15,000? Can you imagine Fuchi or MCT having only 250 soldiers??
Yes, they have security forces. Yes, in a pinch, they can always pull from the one in 200 corporate citizens who wear a badge and carry a gun. Yes, they can hire mercenaries -- but now you're dealing with the size of the merc outfits. (Fortunately for my peace of mind, the SR writers tend to view mercs the way David Drake does -- and the way I like to think of them.) How big is MET2000, or Tsunami, or 10,000 Daggers, or Combat, Inc? How big is, say, Picador's unit? You can bet that she's coming to the party with everything she has ... but is that anything over 150 people? That's good for protecting a couple of villages or a small town, but your corporation has a lot more at stake than that ...
Consider also the fact that all of the Big 10 -- with the possible exception of Horizon -- are nuclear powers. Ares and SK (at the very least) utilize terminal reentry weapons, i.e. Thor shots. Both of these weapons are purely military in use (so yes, you could consider Danchekker having been taken out in a military operation), and I just can't see a corporation with at most 1500 people under military arms as being capable of dropping the hammer like that.
Last, remember the Ensenada Strike -- the Corporate Court pulled from all the other AAA militaries. I again can't imagine Fuchi saying, 'Uhhh, sure, you can have half our military for this...'
I don't know. I'd personally put the total personnel in all branches of the corporate militaries to be in at least the tens of thousands each, up to 75-100k. If Aztechnology has the biggest at 175k+, then a 'big force' corporation such as Ares or Saeder-Krupp should have 100k, while a 'small force' such as Evo or Horizon should probably run 50k or so. Again, that's among all the branches -- but if you functionally restrict that to two sections, Navy and Marines, each of whom have air support and at least one of which feels no restriction in going 3000km away from the nearest seashore, you have some pretty hefty forces.
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Maybe the personnel in the Desert Wars armies are under the Entertainment Division.
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Maybe the personnel in the Desert Wars armies are under the Entertainment Division.
In that case, Horizon is a sure-winner next year!
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that looked at those numbers and thought there's no damn way. Just looking at a company like Blackwater and its employee pool then comparing what it does to what the AAA's tend to do should be enough to realize the numbers are significantly off.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that looked at those numbers and thought there's no damn way. Just looking at a company like Blackwater and its employee pool then comparing what it does to what the AAA's tend to do should be enough to realize the numbers are significantly off.
Crash, my friend, since when are any of the military-related numbers in this game ever ON?
That said, though, I might consider "Company" or "Battalion" as a good estimate for how many soldiers they have at a single installation.
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I will point out again that corporations can get away with having a deceptively small standing military, for two reasons -- 'support personnel' don't have to be counted as 'military', nor do 'security forces'. If you're Saeder-Krupp and you have 35,000 men and women in Europe walking around with weapons, are they all military? Hell, no. 32,500 of them can be reported as 'security forces', and another 300 are going to be reassigned to 'exploratory research' or some damn thing -- mages, in other words. But if the ball drops, and all of a sudden S-K needs to get people to the Balkans in two days to stop the next Islamic Jihad, you can bet that Joe Dirt over there mopping the floor is going to be going through a crash course in when to shoot at shadowrunners, because those 35,000 men are going to be trading their SMGs for battle rifles and suiting up to kick some serious ass.
But that still means that S-K is going to report their European branch as having a military with only 2,200 effectives.
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Joe: "So dis whatchamacallit..."
Security Chief: "Sub-Machine Gun."
Joe: "Yeah, which end does the milk come out of."
SC: "Can't complain, boss will eat me. Can't complain, boss will eat me..."
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EVERY employee of Lone Star is trained with a handgun.
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Given how common violence is in the world, I'm suprised that handgun training isn't part of your everyday schooling in SR. After all, you've gotta train the kids how to not hurt themselves when they find a gun lying in the street every other day.
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Given how common violence is in the world, I'm suprised that handgun training isn't part of your everyday schooling in SR. After all, you've gotta train the kids how to not hurt themselves when they find a gun lying in the street every other day.
*Cough* (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=21806&view=findpost&p=673679)
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Given how common violence is in the world, I'm suprised that handgun training isn't part of your everyday schooling in SR. After all, you've gotta train the kids how to not hurt themselves when they find a gun lying in the street every other day.
*Cough* (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=21806&view=findpost&p=673679)
Ooooh, score! Gonna have to use that, sometime.
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It gets better when the fiction starts. Speaking of, I need to poke the author with a stick again.
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Oh, bother. The section Military Security is Corp Shadowfiles, pp.112-13.
Currently, no corporation fields more than a full regiment of military forces. In almost all instances, the battalion and larger units are combined-arms forces incorporating air, ground, sea, and possible space elements.
Wow.
It's just all over the place. That's all there is to it. It'd be interesting to tackle, but you could say that about a lot of things.
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Oh, bother. The section Military Security is Corp Shadowfiles, pp.112-13.
Currently, no corporation fields more than a full regiment of military forces. In almost all instances, the battalion and larger units are combined-arms forces incorporating air, ground, sea, and possible space elements.
Wow.
It's just all over the place. That's all there is to it. It'd be interesting to tackle, but you could say that about a lot of things.
I fall back on the idea that this doesn't count "Security Guards", guys who have regular stations among the "Civilians", since otherwise Ares couldn't possibly own Knight Errant, and also doesn't include support staff, who would be part of other divisions of the company. Continuing with Ares, that would mean that the "Light Regiment" would be like a smaller version of the grunts in the USMC*, 3000-ish metahumans whose job is to stay in shape and sit on their asses until the excrement hits the spinny thing.
*Using that 20:1 ratio T.W.O. quoted, the USMC has just over 9000 actual soldiers after you strip away the PoGs.
EDIT: And can we please spare the tired "It's over 9000!!!" jokes?
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There are actually a couple of organizations whose units do not match up.
Uncle Sam's Misguided Children are one of them, as every Marine -- every Marine -- is first and foremost a rifleman. He might fly trash haulers, he might cook at the base, but when the balloon goes up, Cookie is gonna grab his M-16 and hit the beach with the rest of them. The other thing is that except for very few places, such as Camp LeJeune, the Marine support organization is ... well, the Navy.
The Navy, on the other hand, is an odd bird, because 'who do you include as being on the sharp end?' If it's the trigger-pullers, on a ship the size of an aircraft carrier, you're looking at a few score out of the thousands needed to run the floating city. All the rest of them are 'supply corps' -- but they're out there, keeping the boilers going. On the other hand, you don't typically count certain others usually based on land, but sure as hell they're warriors. (I'm lookin' at YOU, SEALs.) On the other hand, a naval base has a huge supply train -- but they don't service ships all at once. Sequentially tends to be the ticket...
Anyhow. Take ratios and numbers with a grain of salt; look to the actual 'projected force' data.
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"The clerks, the cooks, and the Sargent-Major's band..."
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I found the taught in schools post amusing, I can already hear arguments on both sides.
1: We want to keep our kids save and have them know how to defend themselves!
2: Did you just read the news? Some 16 year old went and shot up his school yesterday, we don't need them knowing how to kill each other at such a young age!
3: 16 young? What are you some blasted Faerie? 16 in troll years is like 30 to 40. Damn well old enough, and besides didn't you hear that was a cover up? They never found the kid.
2: Your talking about Shadowrunners? What a complete myth, Cooperations and good ol' Lonestar wouldn't allow them to run amuck.
3: Yeah, and they used to say Dragon's didn't exist.
1: Good point. Got to have them able to defend themselves against shadowrunners if they show up in the office somewhere down the road in their life. Make their Corp proud.
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Given how common violence is in the world, I'm suprised that handgun training isn't part of your everyday schooling in SR. After all, you've gotta train the kids how to not hurt themselves when they find a gun lying in the street every other day.
I suppose given America's history this has a fair degree of logic.
However, like the Limey I am, I'm thinking that dystopian authoritarian bodies don't want the underlings to have the capacity to get uppity, and think how a lot of the anti-Gaddafi fighters learnt how to use AKs at school because Gaddafi said they must, and I'm thinking a fair few corps and governments would stress there is absolutely no need to learn how to use guns at all...
Also, I'm skeptical about any corporation relying on security guards for its military needs. Partially because serious military needs means internal security gets hit, which is a bad idea. Mainly because those security guards are not undertaking military training, because they're busy being security guards, and would probably get chewed up by other units who are used to warfighting.
I don't doubt that most triple As would run rotations of security guards through military units and vice versa. I can see them using the security guards in a reserve role to bring units up to strength, form new units quickly if needed and so on.
But if they're serious about being able to project forces to protect their interests then they can't be relying on them. Not unless they have 2 security guards for every one actually needed.
I suppose the line between security and soldier might blur at some of their most riskily located bases I guess, but still...
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I'm on the fence about that idea too. On one hand, it allows them to keep a better image (read as more peaceful) and is seemingly cost effective.
On the other, you definitely don't want every crisis to lighten your security and security forces generally aren't as trained/equipped as military forces.
Now, to counteract that, you could have your military and "security" receive the same training and be on a rotation in order to see more active duty. To some degree this can be assisted with Knowsofts for tactics and such. I still think that security should be a "reserves" style force rather than a military asset.
As for the schools, I was taught gun safety in middle school. I learned to shoot in High School. I don't find it that weird (it was target shooting of course). Then again, it bugs the hell out of me when I see people doing stupid things (running with fingers on the trigger, clearing the chamber before dropping the clip, not checking the backstop, scoping themselves, etc.). Of course I'm from Arkansas, so it may just be a southern thing.
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Back in post WWII era, kids would bring their hunting rifles into school with them, and show them off... and demonstrate proper gun safety. At some point, the rules changed and they weren't allowed to bring in their guns. Crime, violence, and disrespect for authority grew dramatically.
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As with most things, how commonplace weapons are depends on where you are, and what the cultural norms are. Pretty much anywhere in North America, there's still the 'home defense' idea in our psyche from the frontier days, where the two most important things a man could have were a gun and a horse. And if you didn't have a horse, a gun could get that for you.
In England, there's a long bias against private citizens owning guns, so it makes sense that in the world of SR there aren't many guns in London. In Japan, likewise, they don't have that frontier mindset, which means guns are easier to keep out of the hands of the common man. However, bladed weapons are a big thing in Japan, and have been since the days of the samurai. So this leads to the concept that cops may not bat an eye if you are openly wearing a katana (unless you're a gaijin), but they're going to clamp down hard on even that little holdout you have in your pocket.
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So this leads to the concept that cops may not bat an eye if you are openly wearing a katana (unless you're a gaijin), but they're going to clamp down hard on even that little holdout you have in your pocket.
And, of course, nobody EVER looks twice at the adept wearing Hardliner Gloves... until he Sub-Zero punches someone and shatters them like a meatsicle.
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Depends on the culture of the country/corp. Lone Star trains EVERYONE in firearms, and I'd be Ares does as well.
Aztechnology, OTOH, wants good little drugged sheeple.
Horizon probably preaches that violence is the last solution of the stupid or the desperate.
Evo probably advises you to be the weapon, as demonstrated by their Transhumanism.
The UCAS probably thinks firearms should only be in the hands of the military, and security forces (Oh, and maybe the police as well.).
The CAS likely has a "Bring yer huntin' rifle ta school." day. ;D
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Standing military assets are tricky things. They have a large support cost when idle, and when active, that cost goes way, way higher. They're not that useful for most corps, either, since actual security forces handle the defense of corporate areas... why would, say, MCT need a ten thousand strong force on hand? Who are they going to occupy?
No, most corps have a tiny military force as mentioned, for those rare times when they have to pave something. What's that? Your factory in Somalia has been nationalized by some warlord with a couple hundred drugged-up teens with AK-97s? Yeah, call out the Mitsuhama 1st and remind his neighbors why this was a Bad Idea. The average corp simply isn't going to roll into, say, Spain, and claim it in the name of profit.
This means that mercenary outfits are the way to go. You can bet that your MET and such have a far larger number of on-hand bodies, ready to rent out for the conflict dejour. These guys allow the corps to have military assets when needed, but when NOT needed, they don't get saddled with the peacetime upkeep cost.
It's related to why they don't buy cities, really ... who want sto bleed money like that? Let the government deal with people who want potholes filled and are mad about their neighbor playing music too loud ... the corps go where the money is.
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First meeting of the Corporate Court: "We don't want to have to take out the trash. Unless we're paid for it."
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*hunts*
*hunts*
*hunts*
*hunts*
*hunts*
... THERE it is.
The two Golden Rules of the corporate court, which really means the only two rules for the corporations:
- Don't try to overthrow a national government unless you can get away with it.
Corps tend to frown on knocking over governments, because bringing down a government means that somebody gets stuck dealing with garbage collection and other background noise. Taking care of such minutiae in lieu of a legitimate government distracts the corps from their manifest destiny of making grotesque amounts of nuyen.
- If you break it (or geek it), pay for it.
If another corp can prove that you "wastefully" expended some of their assets by blowing up their lab or killing their people or whatever, you have to pay them a sum equal to the replacement cost of the assets.
Translated: Don't knock over a gov, subvert them. Exhibit A: MCT and the Tsimshian government, allowing MCT to utterly strip Tsimshian lands of everything useful and turn the place into toxic hell before waving good-bye and leaving the government to simultaneously collapse and be overthrown.
Translated: Use somebody deniable to wreck, steal, kill, or otherwise waste another corp's assets. Exhibit B: Shadowrunners. "Oh, hell no, that wasn't us, Corporate Court Investigator, sir. It looks like it was some of those pesky criminals. BeanieBaby Inc. must have really pissed them off when they stopped producing Samurai Rabbit ..." The key word up there is, of course, prove. Make it unprovable, put enough distance between you and the people you hire, and you're golden.
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Simple question here, that I'm quite sure will come up in my campaign relatively soon, so I want to head it off at the pass: How would a PLEC (Private Law Enforcement Company) like Knight Errant or Lone Star react to armed action by a Megacorp like S-K or Renraku going off their private property to perform armed action, such as retrieving something stolen by Runners?
I'm sure we can safely assume nobody gives a fuck about the Barrens, but what about in the more civilized parts of the Sprawl, where people actually pay rent and can walk around with minimal chances of getting mugged and/or killed and sold to organleggers?
The question isn't exactly how those Law Enforcement Companies will react, it's more like if the AAA, AA or A level megacorporations will actually care, but then I would have them send out their strike forces just like Renraku did to your main character in the old Sega Genesis video game. 8) ::)
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BeanieBaby Inc. must have really pissed them off when they stopped producing Samurai Rabbit ..." The key word up there is, of course, prove. Make it unprovable, put enough distance between you and the people you hire, and you're golden.
Wait... They stopped making Samurai Rabbit?
BURN THE HERETICS!!! EVERYONE GRAB A PITCHFORK AND FOLLOW ME!!!
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The question isn't exactly how those Law Enforcement Companies will react, it's more like if the AAA, AA or A level megacorporations will actually care, but then I would have them send out their strike forces just like Renraku did to your main character in the old Sega Genesis video game. 8) ::)
I must point out that Knight Errant is a subsidiary of the AAA corp Ares. ;)
Anyway; the way I decided to handle it in such a way that corporate assets have the right to carry around military-grade equipment, since its licensed, but its appreciated when they're not "obvious" about it, and getting loud and messy is generally frowned on. Active fire-fights, they'll probably try to drop everyone with Stick'n'Shocks and Flashbangs and sort it out later. Fait Accompli will be dealt with on a basis of "how much of a mess are we left to deal with", tempered by things like who appears to have started the violence first.
For example, I ran "Food Fight" for my massively-too-powerful-for-the-module characters, just to get everyone settled in. After all the fireworks settle down Knight Errant, basically, gave them a pass once all their IDs and licenses checked out. This was, of course, helped by the fact that the two surviving hit-men admitted to the bombing that set things off, which meant that the group was acting in legitimate self defense.
The fact that they happened to have a perfectly legal mini-gun mounted in a concealed turret in their armored SUV to help them defend themselves* is just the thugs' bad luck.
*I think dealing 30+ Physical damage to someone with 10-box track qualifies as "defenstrated", yes+? Also, probably "cut in half" as well.
+Apparently not.
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How about.... obliterated?
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To be defenestrated, one must be thrown off a high place -- a roof, an upper-story window, something like that. Technically, you could be defenestrated off a ship mast or tree ... but not by a minigun cutting you in half, as it were.
Well, unless it blew you off the building. Then your parts would have been defenestrated. Probably not the cause of death, though ...
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Trolls are good at Defenestration. Sometimes they can hit the building on the other side of the street.
Poor Jeb in Accounting... He still jitters at any wiggle in the windows.
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One of my favorite spells in D&D is 'Defenestrating Sphere'. Throws you up in the air, and you fall back down. Or you hit the ceiling and fall back down. And if there is a window in range of the spell, it AUTOMATICALLY throws you at it.
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I think I need a "Wreck: Window" spell now...
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I think I need a "Wreck: Window" spell now...
Wreck: NERPS!
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Wreck NERPS?
NERPS?!
NEVER!!!
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The two Golden Rules of the corporate court, which really means the only two rules for the corporations:
There are actually three rules, the third one, "Don't go at war" being in the next column in Corporate Shadowfiles, page 100, and in Corporate Download, page 22.
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There are actually three rules, the third one, "Don't go at war" being in the next column in Corporate Shadowfiles, page 100, and in Corporate Download, page 22.
"War is bad for business." "*Cough*." "War between Corporations is bad for business. Sorry Representative of Ares." "'Salright."