Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: ArkangelWinter on <12-31-11/2035:12>
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I just joined today, and was wondering if anyone had tips on dealing with either of my 2 games.
The first group is currently made of a chaos mage (initiate 2) with Shapechange, Stunbolt, Sterilize and a ton of mental manipulation spells that he uses to play face. Even though his foci jump his Manipulation DP to 19, hes not too much of a headache, and neither is the technomancer/rigger.
What I cant seem to stop are the combat chars. Troll weapons expert with wired reflexes 2, Automatics DP14, Body 10 and 10/9 armor plus 2 for bone lacing and 2 for dermal sheath. He just wont go down, to anything but spells resisted by Will.
The other half of that duo is a vampire adept. 2 IP for vampire plus 3 for Improved Reflexes, and with max Agility, maxed Blades with Aptitude, and Improved Blades 2 (and custom grip), he's getting 5 passes where he regularly 2 hit kills even heavily armored and cybered opponents. The only real balance Ive found is his restriction to night action, but he uses a body suit and helmet to cirumvent that in rough neighborhoods.
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Just have an NPC ally fire a rocket launcher. That tends to end badly. At least it did for one team I was part of once. 23 dice to soak and still got one-shotted in that attack. Fraggin scatter >:( :-[
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Works fine on the troll, but I'm going to have to build one devil of an NPC to hit the vamp, and then hope he dies before regen. At least he's just a sneaking dodging blade machine, no other tricks up his sleeve
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Welcome to the boards. I hope you find them as helpful as I have. That being said here are my 2 nuyen worth of ideas.
One thing that might help is an ambush. Attack with an assault rifle and narrow long burst should hit. The troll still will have his soak pool, but no dodge so a good shot should do some damage, and I've found that once the ball starts rolling it picks up speed fast. Another strategy is to have an opposing mage mind control the troll. If he and the vampire square off it could get interesting. (and it will make the team more cautious next time)
Even with his vampire ability and adept powers the vampire should only have 4 IP(this is the games limit). This will slow the killing down some. Another thing is since he is a hand to hand specialist is remember that his movement rate is divided between all of his movements in a CT. So with 4 passes you take the total movement and divide by 4 to get how far he can move in a pass. My suggestion would be hit him from range.
Also like All4BigGuns noted explosives are nasty especially in enclosed areas.
Bugs or some of the other threats out of Street Magic could cause them some problems too especially the spirit types where it becomes an attack of will to do damage to them.
Hope this helps
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See, this is why all Shadowrun DMs should cross-train in D&D. If the combat monsters have sunk that much into their combat abilities, how much room do they have for things like spotting and disarming traps? You want someone to have a really bad day? Enclosed space with multiple claymores set to go off when someone opens the door. Chunky Salsa in effect means even that Vampire is going to be feeling godawful, if not killed outright.
Then on their next characters, they might step back from minmaxing things, to cover the other bases.
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It is not the strongest of the species that continues evolution, but the one most able to adapt to the situation as it comes about.
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A perfect example of how effective explosives can be was in a recent game the team was getting ready to hit another group and thought they had surprise. They knew the "bad guys" were on the second floor. The group gets to the stairwell and starts to go in. Luckily for them the first character in noticed the two grenades that were spinning on the floor. (had been dropped on the previous IP) The team had two of the main combat character take severe damage and a third was hurt(a troll damage soaker) The rest of the combat was slow and painful with the team barely surviving.
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Welcome to the boards. I hope you find them as helpful as I have. That being said here are my 2 nuyen worth of ideas.
One thing that might help is an ambush. Attack with an assault rifle and narrow long burst should hit. The troll still will have his soak pool, but no dodge so a good shot should do some damage, and I've found that once the ball starts rolling it picks up speed fast. Another strategy is to have an opposing mage mind control the troll. If he and the vampire square off it could get interesting. (and it will make the team more cautious next time)
Even with his vampire ability and adept powers the vampire should only have 4 IP(this is the games limit). This will slow the killing down some. Another thing is since he is a hand to hand specialist is remember that his movement rate is divided between all of his movements in a CT. So with 4 passes you take the total movement and divide by 4 to get how far he can move in a pass. My suggestion would be hit him from range.
Also like All4BigGuns noted explosives are nasty especially in enclosed areas.
Bugs or some of the other threats out of Street Magic could cause them some problems too especially the spirit types where it becomes an attack of will to do damage to them.
Hope this helps
Using an ambush, put them in a 10 x 10 room and have one opponent double tap two fragmentation rockets into the middle of the room. Have a couple more come in from the sides just after with Full narrow bursts. Between all that, the vampire and the troll should both be reduced to a fine paste (if not a fine mist).
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One word: Snipers.
Yes, snipers. Plural. As in multiple snipers. Firing Barret 121s.
Other option? See how the vampire likes being in a domain aspected to insect spirits, with a few hybrids coming to call.
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The other ploy that I use that usually works is what I have termed with my current group the rule of escalation. It goes something like this, "Anything you do or use your opponents will also. The more insane your firepower/damage ability/ damage soaking ability the more likely you are to run into someone who can do the same or will take more drastic steps to try."
It has been so effective in my current game that I have had a couple of the players come to me and ask if I do ...... will this start start escalating things?
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The other ploy that I use that usually works is what I have termed with my current group the rule of escalation. It goes something like this, "Anything you do or use your opponents will also. The more insane your firepower/damage ability/ damage soaking ability the more likely you are to run into someone who can do the same or will take more drastic steps to try."
It has been so effective in my current game that I have had a couple of the players come to me and ask if I do ...... will this start start escalating things?
And this, folks, is the mark of a great DM. Don't ban things that players use to abuse the system. Instill in them the almighty fear of a DM unleashing his wrath upon them, and then let the players police themselves. +1 to you, sir.
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Control their actions, put them out of their element, misdirect, confuse, distract, delay, and destroy.
1. Gas weapons. Drop Seven-seven or Ringu on them until they are puddles.
2. Engulf the vampire.
3. Possess the troll.
4. DMSO-liquid weapons (Alcohol for the vamp; Narcoject, MAO, and anything else you can imagine for the troll).
5. Hack their toys
6. Corrode their armor
7. Blind them
8. Deafen them
9. Disorient them
10. Drop them through something
11. Have them land in/under water (which really fucks with vampires)
12. Monowire
13. Sawdust
14. Disrupt them, throw powerful wind at them, make them incapable of exploiting some of their power
You don't need to be stronger than them, just smarter. Throw an enemy at them who has Divination.
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A nice trip to Bug City would fit in very well with our campaign, though I may find a way to remove the mage before trying the control trick. Not sure how the +1 thing works, but you've given me some good ideas.
James: I'm not even trying the hacking route. Not enoug high-tech toys to hack. Though the more I watch their technomancer play defense, the more I think she wasted her Submersion on Multiprocessing
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The question I would ask you is: Is the problem coming from inevitable gun fights (planned by you or easily foresaw) or the result of the PCs actions?
If gun fights are planned or unavoidable for any reason, for you and your players, a good challenge is what you guys need. Not bigger badder guys with even bigger fraggin' guns but challenge. Force your players into unusual situations, something they can deal with but are not necessarily equipped or used to. Think a little outside the box. Toxins specifically aimed at Trolls (if the story can explain it), chambers filled with suffocating and/or explosive gas, places really really cold or filled with electrical sparks, situations that will make them think twice about staying and shooting people. Or make consequences of shooting more dire. If they're invincible, their lovers, friends and family might not be. Or I can give you an idea by giving an example of what things my GM throw at my character Smiley. To make it short, Smiley is an assassin using cunning to reach his target up close and kill them with his bare hands (as an Mystic Adept, he's really good at it). He is really tough, magically resistant and really good at avoiding getting hit, so my GM really rarely bothers with tough fights and works on making it tough to reach it instead. My char had a target to kill, a paranoid scientist and engineer, a real genius, working as a freelancer for who pays most. He's a loner and doesn't even know how to fight but... The target had recently and secretly implanted himself with a device that would make everything he owns and himself explode upon his death. It took some planning and a lot more improvisation but I did it. I don't really need to mention how a bad idea it was to just snap his neck and collect the paycheck. Circumstantial difficulties or penalties will make your fights more challenging without trying to pit them against their equal.
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Then throw someone else's hacked toys at them; from emotitoys to runaway cars. Keep them distracted and off-balance.
I've seen characters with more karma than God get wrecked. The vampire is the biggest problem, but there are plenty of countermeasures for it.
Seriously, Ringu is a 20P, AP –4 persistent neurotoxin. It will kill damn near everything unless the vampire's Magic is 10 or higher. In which case you attack their Immunity.
If gun fights are planned or unavoidable for any reason, for you and your players, a good challenge is what you guys need. Not bigger badder guys with even bigger fraggin' guns but challenge.
Indeed.
Escalation is lazy and generally pointless in the long-term.
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They're both really specialized, so theyre fairly useless out of combat, so I've tried to focud on more investigative missions, but then it feels like giving the other 2 time to shine but not the warriors. I judt thought of cutting off or at least attacking the vamps food supply. That'll make him manageable and cripple the party's meler power.
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All right, I want you to look your players right in the eye, and, with a completely straight face and a matter of fact tone, say, "So what if you feel useless? That's what happens when you make a one trick pony. You suck at everything else." And then offer to let them transfer their karma to new characters, which you will perhaps take better care in going over before approving.
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And don't forget to let your players make rolls with their social skills. Too many GMs fall into the trap of "just play it out, no rolling" when it comes to the social stuff. Doing this does nothing but punish the players who aren't 'social butterflies' themselves and makes putting points into the social skills a waste of points.
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Sniper Rifle (or the Elephant Rifle( + Ex Explosive Ammo (or some hardcore vehicle ammo) Alternatively a troll with a really really big gun. A Panther XXL big. (With really explosive ammo)
Give a couple of the opponents Wired Reflexes x3.
Add a mage to the encounter that summons (Or already has) a spirit. If players don't think quick, a spirit can be really deadly.
A grenade or two.
Since the Trolls impact armor is probably the lowest, give him a couple of enemies that take advantage of that.
Flamethrower...Not sure if that is in any of the Shadowrun books....but who says a GM can't have a flamethrower?
Have your guys wear specially made miilitary grade armor. (Il.e to keep player characters from using it..alternatively you can have the design rather obvious to not wear... who exactly is brave enough to walk around in red samari armor?)
Drones...Lots and Lots of Drones.
An explosioin.
Send them to the artic or desert and if they aren't prepared start tossing some negative penalties their way for the environment.
Complex runs that really tax the players.
Tir Ghosts who happen to have two or three or four edge themselves (maybe the player average)
Illusions and other reasons to add penalities to them. Maybe they get gas tossed at them or perhpas the lights get turned off.
And if after all that they refuse to go down...
....One Very Very Very Hungry Dragon who wants to eat a human sized french fry with ketchup.
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Works fine on the troll, but I'm going to have to build one devil of an NPC to hit the vamp, and then hope he dies before regen. At least he's just a sneaking dodging blade machine, no other tricks up his sleeve
Get a Vampire Hunter decked out in cyberware and bioware. Top of the line. And give him a crossbow with exploding arrows. Of course you would want to play this up in story details.
Vampire meets Vampire. Have the opposing guys end up having another Vampire on their side....this could help even up the field.
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'm seriously considering a Nosferatu adept with a team of suitably strange comrades, like a cyberzombie or a rogue cyborg, possibly under the control of aforementioned Insect Shaman. Then numerous traps in the Hive to weaken the non-regenerating party members and their spirits/drones.
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Martin de Vries! *ahem*
Seriously, I definitely echo the comment about escalation. We call it Sowden's Law round here, after the GM who introduced me to it.
As for snipers, don't forget to call a shot to the head. IIRC, cranial/spinal damage isn't fixed by Regeneration. Add that into the two sniper idea from earlier and your vampire problem is solved. Or, yeah, Martin de Vries (from Street Legends).
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Gotta agree with the calls for a vamp hunter like Martin DeVries here. He is a cannon npc. Beyond that there is the massive social consequence of being a vamp. And needing to eat and all the fun that causes. The troll is ultimately easy. Stunbolt. That is all. No need to go against his body/armor. After all what mage in their right mind doesn't immediately think STUNBOLT the second that they see a big hostile troll... And if NPC casters know that the vamp is a vamp, why the hell attack him. Attack his suit. Once its done you get to stand back and watch the vamp bake.
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Canon NPC. Kane is a 'cannon' NPC.
Seriously -- force them to split up.
Two opposing forces, equal in lethality, that they have to either wipe out or negotiate out of being nasty. The one group -- let's use the Ancients, because they're an easy group to talk about -- is at least neutral to the party, maybe even likes them a little. The other -- we'll say the Red Hot Nukes, because when you have to face down PsychoTroll and SlickieVampire you just can not go wrong with an entire gang of dwarven adept explosive experts who like to booby-trap entire apartment complexes as kill-houses for kicks and grins -- is, so far as the players know, considerably less inclined to open the conversation with the PCs with a 'hi, howya been??'
Even better -- use two lower-tier groups or gangs that the PCs have run into in the past, for good or ill. Have them having 'contracted' with the aforementioned groups ...
Anyhow. Face, probably hacker as well, go over to talk to the Ancients. Yay, they get to talk. Let them talk, and shine. Combat monsters get to go fight and kill stuff ... right??
Wrong.
They charge in, shooting and cutting and ... well, wait a second. Nukes are in no way stupid. The things cut and shot? Drones, manikins, even stuffed dummies, all with lame-o guns on simple 'fire/don't fire' triggers. You can even do this remotely, and do not think the Nukes wouldn't enjoy that ability. They get inside an area -- any area -- and have the walls come tumbling down. AND the floor, except for the patch they happen to be standing on.
Let them meet the leader of the Red Hot nukes, with the rest of the gang scattered around. After this amount of time, word is sure to have gotten around about them and their abilities -- AV rocket launchers, grenades, interesting chemicals, let them be really visible. And then open with "Now, I could wipe you out right now, but this guy," hugs the leader of the local gang or whatever, "he had some fine hits of (Bliss/Zen/whatever drug you feel like doing -- even pot would work). So really, all is right with my world. What say we talk this out? Or do you really wanna die right now?" Lifts hand to gesture the order to wipe 'em out, rocks fall, everyone dies.
As said previously, yes, they are going to suck. They made one-great-trick ponies in a world where you need one good trick, and two or three or four other useful tricks. They, frankly, deserve to get screwed, because that's how the SR world works. They've had their time in the spotlight; I bet they spent all their karma on making themselves even more kickass. Great. Now's the time they pay for that.
AFTER this session, THEN you propose new, less-insanely-focused characters, carrying over the karma from the current ones.
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And here I thought Kane was a NPC with a Cannon... :P
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's what I said.
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I think this has already been covered, but I'll say it anyway:
If these characters are that good/well equipped, then they should have a reputation as being such (subject to exaggeration, inaccuracy & incompleteness). So an adversary should be able to tailor their operation to hit 'em where they're (apparently) weak.
Honestly, it sounds like your next benchmark will be a shedim horde. Or experienced Drakes. Or shedim-possessed Drakes.
Alternately, if your players have scruples, hit them there. Say they get offered a run to take out a terrorist training camp. Fine and dandy - only at some point after they get right in the zone, they discover the 'training camp' is in fact an orphanage. If there isn't some soul-searching happening after that . . .
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Reputation is a double edged sword. Yes, people will start figuring out how you operate, but more importantly, people will hire you for what your good at doing. Those two guys are really good at killing. So you're going to get a lot of attrition jobs. Not so much the assassinations. While those two will have ROFLstomps, the reputation and notoriety builds. When payback comes, it won't be at the combat monsters, it will be their support staff. Contacts are going to start turning up dead, or refusing to associate with them. When the assassin's bullet comes, the saying is "Geek the mage first". That means their face is going to get splattered. Then they'll lose their tech support, and probably their bank roll. Skirmishes will deplete supplies. Eventually, it will just be the two of them. Alone in a dark room and hungry. When they fall, it will be at their own hands because that is the only thing they know how to do.
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They drink to a well-done job!
And wake up naked save for some kind of collar in a shipping container with a bunch of other Shadowrunners from the Sprawl. On a deserted island. It opens up to blinding, painful light... And a bunch of clubs and knives and other simplistic weapons...
"You've all have explosive collars attached to your necks, try to remove them, boom. Try to not play the game, boom. The game is... SURVIVAL... Only one of you is getting out alive. The prize? Well, we get the prize... RATINGS!!!"
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They drink to a well-done job!
And wake up naked save for some kind of collar in a shipping container with a bunch of other Shadowrunners from the Sprawl. On a deserted island. It opens up to blinding, painful light... And a bunch of clubs and knives and other simplistic weapons...
"You've all have explosive collars attached to your necks, try to remove them, boom. Try to not play the game, boom. The game is... SURVIVAL... Only one of you is getting out alive. The prize? Well, we get the prize... RATINGS!!!"
So Super Smash TV crossed with Survivor?
"Big money! Big Prizes! I Love it!"
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Battle Royale FTFW!
Honestly, I'm a little surprised how many people are just going for the bigger badder opponent with even bigger friggin' guns. Oh well, people are free to do as wish but I think I'm going to appreciate my GM even more now. :P
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Control their actions, put them out of their element, misdirect, confuse, distract, delay, and destroy.You don't need to be stronger than them, just smarter.
This sums it nicely, and his list is pretty nice. Put aside the concept of winning, and stopping them. Challenge them by changing how the formula works. If they blast their way through every situation, throw a situation that can't be blasted through to complete. Or conversely have them only get jobs that become increasingly more dangerous, and require increasingly heavy weaponry. Drop hints that their street rep is those disposable guys who kill everything. There's a lot of fun to be had-be sure to also discuss what you see with your players. Get their input. If they're having fun, you're doing it right. if they're not having fun then change it. If you're not having fun, let them know why. Most players I've dealt with seem willing to help make the game fun for everyone. Including the Game Master.
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I honestly want to know where the problem is with them being able to consistently and cleanly win at what they do. They are highly skilled professional hitters, aren't they?
The way the world works is if a person is good at their job and doesn't over-reach their capacity (Pink Mohawk assault on an Ares High Threat Incident Response staging facility, anyone?), then they have a very good chance of staying alive and successful. It's not the job of the GM to throw them into a shark tank because they can handle the regular pool, it's to dangle shiny prizes over the shark tank so they jump in willingly.
Of course, this all depends on if they're smart enough to use the rule that allows them to "burn" street cred to get rid of notoriety at a 2:1 ratio to keep a relatively low profile.
EDIT: Looks like Serious Paul summed it all up nicely and beat me to the punch.
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JustADude is right about wondering what is wrong about being over the top in combat and always winning at this. It makes the characters badasses and their players proud of their characters. It's fun and they are happy. At this point if they don't slip up into downright stupidity it's okay that they always win firefights. If their players wants challenges and adversity to spice things up, GMs should do it in other areas. That way they can still boast their chest at being badasses but still have some difficulties along the way.
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They drink to a well-done job!
And wake up naked save for some kind of collar in a shipping container with a bunch of other Shadowrunners from the Sprawl. On a deserted island. It opens up to blinding, painful light... And a bunch of clubs and knives and other simplistic weapons...
"You've all have explosive collars attached to your necks, try to remove them, boom. Try to not play the game, boom. The game is... SURVIVAL... Only one of you is getting out alive. The prize? Well, we get the prize... RATINGS!!!"
So Super Smash TV crossed with Survivor?
"Big money! Big Prizes! I Love it!"
I knew someone would get it!
I was also thinking "Mean Guns". (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119642/) Bad movie, but so Cyberpunk in a lot of ways! Just a hint, don't watch with your Grandmother and Great-Uncle. Oops.
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I honestly want to know where the problem is with them being able to consistently and cleanly win at what they do. They are highly skilled professional hitters, aren't
Of course, this all depends on if they're smart enough to use the rule that allows them to "burn" street cred to get rid of notoriety at a 2:1 ratio to keep a relatively low profile.
EDIT: Looks like Serious Paul summed it all up nicely and beat me to the punch.
Yea, it just gets boring to me and them occassionally when they can go into most combats without fear of great harm. Mostly I get disgruntled bc it's like running 2 meat parties, them plus the other 2, in addition to dealing with the usual astral and matrix events
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And that's cool. Discuss it with them. Solutions can range from retiring those characters-everything ends right?- to they've grown so successful that they now have to worry about the up and coming people who want to wax them to get a rep for themselves. Deal with that. The plot hooks are endless. Off the top of my head here are some the headaches being good can get you:
- People ant to kill you for the rep it will give them.
- Corporations may decide taking you out before you can hurt them suddenly makes sense.
- No one can pay your wages, because your rep precedes you and people figure you'll just cost too much, so they hire the cheaper talent.
- People want your help. I mean like everyone. And it's not just the come get my cat out of this tree stuff, but hey we know you guys can kill this Horror from the 4th world right?
- Fans. Press. Cameras. Add in the local law enforcement becoming aware of these master mind criminals who'd look great cuffed up on the nightly recap...
- Hey it's me Lofwyr, and I heard great things about you guys. I swear I'd never send you on a suicide job, but....
Depending on how your group rolls, discuss it with them. let them know both what you feel (Bored) and the internally consistent consequences of success. Some good. Some bad.
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The other half of that duo is a vampire adept. 2 IP for vampire plus 3 for Improved Reflexes, and with max Agility, maxed Blades with Aptitude, and Improved Blades 2 (and custom grip), he's getting 5 passes where he regularly 2 hit kills even heavily armored and cybered opponents. The only real balance Ive found is his restriction to night action, but he uses a body suit and helmet to cirumvent that in rough neighborhoods.
A few things also about the vampire
1st to damage him, do things he can't heal from like fire, or maybe there's a dojo master that uses a wooden sword who knows? Anyways the allergy can really suck when used against them.
2nd I'm pretty sure the 2 IP's of the vampire and the Wired reflex do not stack IP's so for example a wired reflexes 1 would do nothing for a vampire.
3rd. You do know anything that has regeneration needs Delta ware otherwise the body rejects the bioware, which means that Wired reflexes 3 in that vampire has to be worth 1,000,000 Nuyen because it's * 10 the base cost..... that might be worth killing that vampire just to get the ware.... o.O'
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Rhe vamp isn't cybered; it's the adept Imp Reflex power
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The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.
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The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.
Check again. Here's the relevant quote from SR4A, p68:
"Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4."
So, it is possible for a rare few characters to get 5 IPs, which means that someone with a base of 2 IPs, like a Vampire, can stack an Initiative Pass Booster to get to the hard-cap. However, a Vampire Rigger would NOT be able to get 6 Matrix IPs using the typical combo.
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The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.
Check again. Here's the relevant quote from SR4A, p68:
"Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4."
So, it is possible for a rare few characters to get 5 IPs, which means that someone with a base of 2 IPs, like a Vampire, can stack an Initiative Pass Booster to get to the hard-cap. However, a Vampire Rigger would NOT be able to get 6 Matrix IPs using the typical combo.
The language is open to that interpretation. However, I believe it to be a stretch.
Unwired p 198 Simsense Accelerator:
... It is compatable with simsense booster cyberware (so a hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).
Now, despite a few obvious gramatical mistakes (like the extra close para-emphases, and the "Initiative Passes;"), the intent and meaning is still pretty clear. When the two pieces of equipment are combined it achieves 5 IPs, a break in limit. The important part is that this is CLEARLY EXEMPTED.
I see no reason given this precedence that your interpretation should be considered correct, especially given the ramifications to game balance.
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I see no reason given this precedence that your interpretation should be considered correct, especially given the ramifications to game balance.
Very nice, very nice indeed. You have just one rather tiny flaw in your argument. What I've stated is not an "interpretation". My source is a word-for-word quote from the latest edition of the core rule book. This is a clear statement of system functionality written in plain, properly grammatical English. That trumps any hazy and equivocal reference you may be able to pull from another source.
The hard-cap for IPs is 5. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200¥. Underline, bold, CAPITALIZE, and italicize all you want, it's not going to change that fact.
I don't know what the guy that wrote Simsense Accelerator was trying to say or prove, or what he was smoking when he wrote it. All I can possibly conceive of is that it was meant as an assurance that it does stack with Simsense Booster, and just got phrased in a piss-poor manner.
However, going back and looking at the Infected Attribute Modifier Table in the Runner's Companion (p79) I do see now that the IP boost doesn't stack with other forms of "IP augmentation", so while I am still correct that the potential hard limit is still 5 IPs, the Vampire could not achieve such a state because his HMHVV boost doesn't stack with the Adept Power, and for no other reason.
P.S. The word you were looking for is "precedent". Precedence is used for relative description, with one thing "taking precedence over" another, like the explicit rules in the core rule-book taking precedence over a vague allusion in a supplement.
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The language was put in there because since the fourth edition book came out there were a few, very specific, exceptions to the rule that you could only have four initiative passes. The fact that these ways all specifically say they bypass the normal rule that you can't get more than 4 IP only reinforces the argument. In fact, elsewhere in the book it says that most characters cannot get more than 4 IP, even if they spend Edge, the Increase Reflexes spell out and out says that the most you can get is 4, and all the other ways to get extra IPs are capped at +3 IP, and outright say that they can't be combined with other enhancements to initiative.
Your argument is like saying "Well, no one saw my client shoot the guy five times in the head. They just heard five shots from the next room, and came in thirty seconds later to see him standing over the dead man holding a gun that had recently been fired five times and my client had gunpowder residue on his hands. But that doesn't PROVE anything!"
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The language was put in there because since the fourth edition book came out there were a few, very specific, exceptions to the rule that you could only have four initiative passes. The fact that these ways all specifically say they bypass the normal rule that you can't get more than 4 IP only reinforces the argument. In fact, elsewhere in the book it says that most characters cannot get more than 4 IP, even if they spend Edge, the Increase Reflexes spell out and out says that the most you can get is 4, and all the other ways to get extra IPs are capped at +3 IP, and outright say that they can't be combined with other enhancements to initiative.
Wow, nice attempt at distraction with your hyperbolic analogy, which has nothing at all to do with this situation.
The rules plainly state that the hard-cap is 5, no more and no less. Unless you can explain to me how the phrase "The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5" has any room for an alternate interpretation, then you are just plain wrong. I hate to be like that but, to me, you sound like you're trying to argue that 2+2 equals 3 instead of 4. I can't break things down any further because we're already at the fundamental, self-evident level.
And, before you even go there, the follow-up clause "but most character types can only ever achieve 4" is irrelevant to the discussion. All this does is warn characters of the things that you mentioned, that most, but not all, methods of IP enhancement fall short of the hard limit. This does not, however, change what the limit is any more than the Augmented Maximum on a stat is lowered just because there's no way to stack enough bonuses to reach it.
I'm not above admitting I'm wrong when someone actually invalidates my point or can cite a superior precedent, but so far the only argument I've seen boil down to "The limit is 4 because it's always been 4, and it will always be 4 because it has always been 4... except when it's 5."
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I think we've become distracted. Whether this character has 4 or 5 Initiative Passes is really kind of a side issue to me. How the player uses them is more important. Now this may not be the case in the game we're discussing, but often what I see is people taking more action than they should in a turn-not utilizing the limits set by the break down of free, simple and complex actions; not enforcing movement limits; etc....
Examine those, and if that's not the case then it's time to examine stuff that either slows down their actions (Greater space between targets, after all at their power level people will use cover and concealment, as well other resource or multiple targets); or scenarios that make traditional actions kind of less effective-if your job isn't to gun down the target but schmooze him into giving up information with out knowing it, who cares if you can pull the trigger 5 times in X seconds?
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The players are thinking and believing their characters are invincible, yes? Well... entice them with a big juicy well-paying run. How about a hit on Lofwyr himself? No runner with an ego bigger than the moon could resist the oportunity to boost his rep like that and be renowned as the most badass runner their ever was. Or resist the money (about 3-6million should do) for that matter. Of course nobody messes with a dragon and walks away (maybe crawls away clutching his severed leg in one hand) and it should teach your players to be bloody paranoid again, just like they should be ;D
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(I)f your job isn't to gun down the target but schmooze him into giving up information with out knowing it, who cares if you can pull the trigger 5 times in X seconds?
Well, the target's bodyguards, if any, for one, as well as local security. Also the mark, if they're savvy to the world of the street. They tend to all be able to pick up on those types of things, or at least the signs that accompany it. Of course, that just makes it harder.
The players are thinking and believing their characters are invincible, yes? Well... entice them with a big juicy well-paying run. How about a hit on Lofwyr himself? No runner with an ego bigger than the moon could resist the oportunity to boost his rep like that and be renowned as the most badass runner their ever was. Or resist the money (about 3-6million should do) for that matter. Of course nobody messes with a dragon and walks away (maybe crawls away clutching his severed leg in one hand) and it should teach your players to be bloody paranoid again, just like they should be ;D
I think you mis-spoke. I'm sure you meant to say "Billion" not "Million".
At least that's what my characters would say... right before laughing in the Johnson's face, of course.
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Hey!
I think you mis-spoke. I'm sure you meant to say "Billion" not "Million".
At least that's what my characters would say... right before laughing in the Johnson's face, of course.
Hey, my players are cheap and Im lucky they haven't gone roller-blading yet so they might well take on a dragon for a few million although Lofwyr would cost considerably more; say, a few million each. I also make an incredibly cheap Johnson. Hitmen are not paid millions, or even hundreds of thousands, in the real world so I guess the same applies for the Sixth World. Although we don't have dragons in the real world either :P
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There's hitmen, and then there's hitmen. You're right, the guy you get to put two in the back of the head of a local police captain isn't going to be paid millions of dollars. They guy you pay to shoot the President of the United States? Oh you better believe he will be getting well paid, and spending a healthy chunk of that change to disappear.
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Obviously your mileage will vary at every table-but the basic concepts are still the same. Get out of the win lose rat race, because it's a false dichotomy. I personally say stop the cash flow-stop the paying jobs from coming in, and get them to start addressing the world around them. Shorting them resources is the first step. flesh out their interactions with the world. Pushing them out side their comfort zone will change the game.
But again none of this will remotely work if you don't communicate with your players. Keep them in the loop.
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There's hitmen, and then there's hitmen. You're right, the guy you get to put two in the back of the head of a local police captain isn't going to be paid millions of dollars. They guy you pay to shoot the President of the United States? Oh you better believe he will be getting well paid, and spending a healthy chunk of that change to disappear.
Heck, it may be enough to retire for good, unless he's just addicted to the merc lifestyle. I've had players make huge freelance runs like that and then retire their surviving character to a sunny beach.
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3-5 Mill apiece sounds good. Accept the deal.
THEN
Speak to known enemies of Lofwry. If you're as bad ass as claimed your rep should proceed you. Tell them that you'd be willing to remove him "for a price". If you fail, no harm to them, but how much would success be worth to them? Just be careful not to tip anyone on Lofwry's team.
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3-5 Mill apiece sounds good. Accept the deal.
THEN
Speak to known enemies of Lofwry. If you're as bad ass as claimed your rep should proceed you. Tell them that you'd be willing to remove him "for a price". If you fail, no harm to them, but how much would success be worth to them? Just be careful not to tip anyone on Lofwry's team.
Or, alternatively, you record the conversation, take the deposit (no way I'd do it for less than 10% up front, and I'd try for 50%), and then mosey on over to Saeder-Krupp and sell them Mr. Johnson's face and voice. I'm sure Lofwyr, who believes in buying people's loyalty with pretty, shiny toys and cold hard nuyen, would be quite generous in paying out for such a thing. Sure it probably won't be 3,000,000¥ each but, then again, you won't have to try to kill Lofwyr.
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The bounty on a vampire is 7,500 Nuyen in the UCAS (Running Wild page 64), only 6,000 in the CAS. The bounty might only attract the desperate but the rest of the party may eventually get tired of wasting resources fighting every down on his luck bounty hunter looking for a quick nuyen.
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Divide and conquer!
Players of that skill are probably proud and don't like people stealing their frags. So they normally want to finish their "own" fights.
Lure the vampire away from the troll by having a npc (closer to the vampire than to the troll) appear and shoot at him from not too far away(so he will still decide to attack that one in close combat) right after the vampire finished off his last one( that way you will kinda force him too attack the enemy you picked for him). After attacking that one lure him even farther away, same game. then have him attacked from two direction. there should always be one in his back. Make them aim for the head too (no regen), wear down his armor(the vampire might regenerate, his armor doesn't), and finally him. Those npcs don't need to be skilled, they just need the right tactics.
With vampire out of the way, let someone sneak to and surprise attack the troll in close combat, if its his weakness. Called attacks with +4 dv are important to go through his armor.
Used acid spells early on him. He might laugh while soaking the damage. Then tell him his armor rating has halved.
For shooting use cover, thermal smokes. The goal of defending npcs is to delay until they get stronger backup.
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Offer a job to deliver a package in a van... at rush hour. Cue ambush. The chars can't escape cuz they're stuck in gridlocked traffic and if they're being attacked by guys in plain clothesyou can quite legitimately have more and more enemies appearing. This can be a group of men at the side of the road pull out machine pistols and start raking the van with lead, the dudes in the car next to you pull out sawn-off shotguns, snipers at windows and maybe even a few RPGs on rooftops. This is made even worse if the package is too large and heavy for them to carry on foot because they will have to choose between running for their lives and having their rep tarnished because they let the package be captured, or staying put and try to outlast the bad guys (which they can't because they'll keep coming). The players will start off feeling pretty confident as they nail half a dozen with ease but as the guys start crawling out of the wood-work and start bringing bigger guns, their confidence will turn to paranoia. It isn't a GM's job to try and kill the PCs unless they do something stupid but you certainly shouldn't be scared to give em a couple of bullet holes
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The flu.
No, I'm not joking. Big job come across just as they're hitting the worst part of the flu. Big pay, big rep boost, the works, and they can barely get out of bed. ;D
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CanRay: sadistic and funny and effective all at once. Except for Infected's Immunity to Pathogens
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CanRay: sadistic and funny and effective all at once. Except for Infected's Immunity to Pathogens
Do it on a day the Infected's player doesn't show up.
Or have the Johnson be prejudiced to HMHVV-Infected.
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Two words: Awakened Influenza.
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Two words: Awakened Influenza.
o.O' that sounds like the black plague to me :P
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Two words: Awakened Influenza.
o.O' that sounds like the black plague to me :P
"Governor, Governor, is this VITAS IV?" "No, luckily it's only an awakened form of Influenza. It should only be a real emergency to the already sick, elderly, young, or those with extensive amounts of cybernetics."
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How about a disease that only infects the Infected? That also opens up some strange runs for desperate or concerned Infected Johnsons.
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Maybe I'm over thinking this-but how pissed off as a player would you be if someone ran a game that was specifically tailored to mess you up, screw you over or simply level an opponent that you can't beat? I get that people are presenting various ideas in hopes of leveling the playing field a little, but seriously this all reeks of GM vs. Players mentality to me. It's kind of high schoolish at best, at worst...well as a player I'd be pretty offended.
This isn't to say all of these suggestions are strongbad! or wrong. Just keep in mind that it needs to be internally consistent Lead up these sorts fo events, give them opportunities to interact with them, maybe even change them. As the GM you can constantly change the story line and plot to make the game dynamic.
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The world is not fair. It is not nice. It does not care about your feelings. If you make a name for yourself, people will look to take you down, either out of revenge, or to secure their own rep. If you have a rep as a combat god, even moreso. These two have been running roughshod over the game world, and so it is time to bring them down a couple pegs.
Sometimes, the first warning you have that someone wants to make their bones off your name is that funny feeling in your kidney as they twist the shank.
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Divide and conquer!
Players of that skill are probably proud and don't like people stealing their frags. So they normally want to finish their "own" fights.
Lure the vampire away from the troll by having a npc (closer to the vampire than to the troll) appear and shoot at him from not too far away(so he will still decide to attack that one in close combat) right after the vampire finished off his last one( that way you will kinda force him too attack the enemy you picked for him). After attacking that one lure him even farther away, same game. then have him attacked from two direction. there should always be one in his back. Make them aim for the head too (no regen), wear down his armor(the vampire might regenerate, his armor doesn't), and finally him. Those npcs don't need to be skilled, they just need the right tactics.
With vampire out of the way, let someone sneak to and surprise attack the troll in close combat, if its his weakness. Called attacks with +4 dv are important to go through his armor.
Used acid spells early on him. He might laugh while soaking the damage. Then tell him his armor rating has halved.
For shooting use cover, thermal smokes. The goal of defending npcs is to delay until they get stronger backup.
Dividing the group is a good idea. However just because they are running powerful characters doesn't necessarily mean that they're full of pride and ego. In fact, considering that they've survived so long, I'd say that they're far more likely to be careful.
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They're pretty good at scouting out everything first; even on a short timeframe, swarms of sprited and drones are pretty effective at that, as is Mind Probing baddies. Really, it wouldnt have become an.issue if they didnt work so well together. They even made sure to eventually buold high-tech gear load out and a low-tech one for dealing with hackers. I've had a lot of fun jerking around their moral compass, since the TMs the only one with the guts for wetwork and drugs and such.
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They're pretty good at scouting out everything first; even on a short time-frame, swarms of sprites and drones are pretty effective at that, as is Mind Probing baddies. Really, it wouldn't have become an.issue if they didn't work so well together. They even made sure to eventually build high-tech gear load out and a low-tech one for dealing with hackers. I've had a lot of fun jerking around their moral compass, since the TM's the only one with the guts for wet-work and drugs and such.
Okay, this right here.
They're good, they're smart, and they're cautious. They're doing everything right and they've gotten big and nasty and powerful. In short, they're ripe for a big "retirement" job.
I don't mean "retire" as in "kill them and/or maim them so horribly they can never work again". I mean "retire" as in "retire"... you know, give them one last REALLY hard job with a payday big enough to retire on.
Have them get tasked to steal a huge fortune in gold, gems, orichalcum, etc (whatever you feel is appropriate) are being shipped from somewhere to somewhere else. Probably as a payoff for something from a corp to some huge underground organization that doesn't trust cred-sticks, where it would be spread out far enough that each individual would get a much more 'normal' payout. The reward for the run? The gold/gems/orichalcum itself!
Have the Johnson be Hans Brackhouse (which is Saeder-Krupp's version of "I'm a Johnson, but I want you to know I work for S-K"), since they've got a reputation for generous pay combined with harsh reprisals for screw-ups. Next, throw several other runner teams competing for the same target into the mix (ones who are not amenable to splitting the prize), as well as the type of security a covert shipment worth several large fortunes would have.
If they lose to the runners they get taken down a peg, and if the security wins because they were all too busy in-fighting then they've made an enemy of S-K, and that's not a good enemy to have.
If they get the payday... well "Okay, guys, you all have enough money to retire to a life of filthy, decadent luxury. Roll up new character,"
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In short, they're ripe for a big "retirement" job.
This right here.
You approach the players and say, "I'm sorry, but these guys have gotten way out of hand. I'd like to give them the opportunity of One More Run. Putting together new characters isn't the question; the question is do you do it before your next run, or after. Your choice."
There always comes a time.
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Well if you guys are going to start breaking out the biowarfare agents, just crack open a can of FAB-III around the leech and close the doors.
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If you're not ready to go the route of forced retirement there are other options as well.
Try challenging them in other ways. You mentioned before they wouldn't take wetwork and you were playing with their morality. That's pretty good. I can think of a few ways to make some challenges there.
First off the top of my head is a mob of mind controlled people trying to kill them. Just ordinary folk in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do they use their crazy murder abilities on these people who can't throw more then 4 dice to soak, or do they have to find another option? For added fun, make it happen where there are cameras, fast LEO response time to get the runners in more trouble or slow response to drag it out, etc.
Or you could rework that idea a thousand different ways.
Instead of mind controlled with magic, have the Big Bad use a bunch of gamers who think they're playing a VR game at home, but he's deactivated the safeties that keep people from moving around. They're trying to shoot your players but they think they're just in a video game. And so on. Lots of examples.
Another one you can use is setups. One I'm a fan of is having the run involve a little violence, but the Johnson intentionally recording the meeting and the run in secret. Then providing the victims with the footage and any other data. Obviously, this is a trap run by someone with a grudge, but if they've got the rep they do they've bound to have made some enemies by this point.
And there's always snipers. Always snipers. Magic snipers too, don't discount ritual spellcasting.
Being too good at your job means you stand out, makes you a target. Remember that too.
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Combat in SR is very swing-y due to several mechanical choices (it is easier to hit than to dodge, unless you have plenty of armor most people can be 2 shotted by SnS rounds (especially burst fired)).
I would not try to balance your encounters to make them challenging, instead add encounters that make sense for the story and that the players can defeat. It is much easier for the game to recover from PCs destroying a group of enemies, than a group of enemies destroying the PCs (because they may be dead or in jail). If you don’t intend the combat to be a challenge and instead just another element in the story, then overwhelming violence is a tool in the PC’s toolbox when they plan a run (do we want covert ops or overt and cops?).
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The world is not fair. It is not nice. It does not care about your feelings. If you make a name for yourself, people will look to take you down, either out of revenge, or to secure their own rep. If you have a rep as a combat god, even moreso. These two have been running roughshod over the game world, and so it is time to bring them down a couple pegs.
Sometimes, the first warning you have that someone wants to make their bones off your name is that funny feeling in your kidney as they twist the shank.
If all of this is internally consistent, then yes. If not then it's a steaming pile of crap and just an excuse for lack of ability by a GM to create an interactive, and internally consistent and dynamic setting.
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Okay, so during our run today the party had to extract a target from Kowloon Walled City. Ended up mauled when the vampire got Blasted twice by a Yama King and the troll (rapelling down a building a few blocks away to plant distraction explosives) got lit up by a minigun. Technomancer saved his butt with her Hotspur and mounted Panther, and the mage managed to beat the Yama King by Control Thoughts to make him attack the target, but it cost them the run because the TM was the only one who could go on.
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Okay, so during our run today the party had to extract a target from Kowloon Walled City. Ended up mauled when the vampire got Blasted twice by a Yama King and the troll (rapelling down a building a few blocks away to plant distraction explosives) got lit up by a minigun. Technomancer saved his butt with her Hotspur and mounted Panther, and the mage managed to beat the Yama King by Control Thoughts to make him attack the target, but it cost them the run because the TM was the only one who could go on.
sounds like they had a bad day, nothing they can't recover from however :D