Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Ravenspoe on <01-05-12/1435:59>
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Hi everyone!
I am not new to the Shadowrun game, but I am new in regards to being a GM. I have run games in the past (2nd Edition SR and a one shot of 4e SR). Granted the basics of the system are simple, but every time I try to get a grip on running ranged combat my eyes gloss over. I was reading the cool cheat sheets in the Runner's Toolkit and the steps are just baffling (add this, subtract this, match this recoil number to another set of number and find the remainder...). I really want to run a campaign, but my fear is (like my last attempt) I will get in for one or two sessions and run away.
It cannot be this hard! Am I reading into this too much and the answer is right in front of me?
Help!
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Recoil and remainder? Which sheet are you looking at?
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Recoil and remainder? Which sheet are you looking at?
The Ranged Combat Quick Reference Sheet.
Steps 7-10 make me want to cry :'(
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I'm in the exact opposition position so maybe we can help each other out, I'm pretty comfortable with ranged combat and not at all good on hacking and magic.
Ranged combat has a lot of numbers, but at the same time once you do it a few times it makes so much more sense.
Attacker roles Agility+Combat skill ( say pistols)+lot's of modifiers (more on this in a second) then Defender roles Reaction+modifiers, note how many net hits if any the attacker gets. In other words subtract the defenders hits from the attackers and see if you have a positive number.
Add attackers net hits to DV of weapon ( damage value), determine the type of ammo used and add the ATTACKERS armor penetration to the DEFENDERS armor value. (if attack is physical and the damage value does not exceed the defenders Armour Value than the damage is changed to Stun damage)
Now you have two numbers, the accacker has there number of hits from the attack added to there weapons DV, the defender has there Armour Value minus the Armour Penitration of the attack.
Defender roles Body+Adjusted Armour Value, each hit reduces the attackers DV by one. The Attackers DV minus the Defenders hits in the previously mentioned check equals the damage done.
Yes, this is really complex, one you do it a few times, just for practice, you start to get used to it.
The amount of modifiers is crazy, so make sure your players are the ones figuring out which ones they get in advance and writing that down.
Also, if any one wants to go over what I just wrote and figure out if I messed stuff up I would appreciate that.
And feel free to reword this as well, I'm sure some one can do much better.
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7. Subtract the Recoil Compensation from the number of rounds fired this Phase, then subtract one; the difference is the recoil modifier.
8. If the weapon is a heavy weapon, double the recoil modifier.
9. If the weapon is a shotgun and the fire mode is BF or FA, double the recoil modifier.
10. If the recoil modifier is greater than zero, subtract it from your pool.
Its really simple. A gun in Burst Fire mode shoots 3 rounds in each burst. You can do two bursts as a complex action. Now, this kicks the gun a bit, making it move off target. Each bullet after the first subtracts from your dice pool, so you'd be getting a -5 to hit. However, there are things like gas vent systems, personalized grips, shock pads, and the like that help you negate some of that kick. So if you have a RC on that weapon of 4, then that means you only get a -1 to hit.
Now, some guns kick more than others. Heavy Weapons (machine guns, grenade launchers, assault cannons, etc.) and shotguns in Burst Fire or Full Auto mode are the main candidates. Because these weapons kick more, any recoil you don't compensate for with RC counts double. So in the example above, you'd take a -2 to hit, while if you didn't have any RC at all, you'd take a -10 to hit.
It may look like a lot, but it is really simple once you get the hang of it.
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Okay here is an example of one of the more extreme shots.
Attacker wants to kill Defender quick, so he goes full-auto on the target.
Attacker has a 5 Agility and a 6 in automatics with a specialty in assault rifles and a smartlink (15 dice pool)
He's firing two long, narrow bursts giving a -5 recoil penalty for the first and a -6 for the second.
He has 5 recoil compensation (not that hard to get) so the penalty is mitigated to none for the first and -1 for the second.
Final attack dice pools are 15 for the first and 14 for the second.
Rolling to hit he gets 6 hits on the first and 4 hits on the second.
Defender rolls his Reaction of 7 and gets 3 hits (good roll Defender) on the first.
He then rolls his Reaction - 1 to defend against the second and gets only 1 hit. (Ouch).
Net hits from the attack rolls are 3 for the first and 3 for the second.
Adding this to the 6P DV of the assault rifle comes to 9P for both bursts.
The assault rifle has an AP of -1 which is now subtracted from Defender's ballistic armor (the first number)
Defender now only has 8 ballistic armor after AP making the damage physical for both.
Now the +5 DV is added to both for the long burst making both 14P DV. This is what must be resisted.
Now Defender rolls his 5 Body plus his now 8 ballistic armor (13 dice) to resist.
He gets lucky and manages 6 hits on the resistance, so he "only" takes 8P damage from the first burst.
Rolling again for the second burst, Defender only gets 3 hits, taking 11P damage.
This puts him seven points into Physical Damage Overflow, which I believe is enough to make Defender quite dead.
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Actually, that's wrong. Recoil is cumulative. Those two long narrow bursts? -5 for the first one, -11 for the second.
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Are long burst not limited to 1 per Action Phase? Sorry, AFB at the moment.
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Long bursts are a simple action, but yes, you can only do one per turn. Full bursts are a complex action.
You can, however, do a Long burst and a short burst.
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Long bursts are a simple action, but yes, you can only do one per turn. Full bursts are a complex action.
You can, however, do a Long burst and a short burst.
Unless, of course, it's a High Velocity weapon or Minigun.
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We can solve this simple way, Raven.
We are both orks and we both have:
natural LowLight vision
Single IP
Reaction 4
Intuiition 4
Agility 4
Pistols skill 4
Dodge skill 4
Ares Predator
+Smartgun
We are on the
Narrow street with some garbage cans, two street lamps one on each half of the street
Initial distance is 50 meters
We are trying to kill each other
No surprise happened
Use: www.invisiblecastle.com
Roll initiative!
Raven vs. Test Subject 1
CT1, IP1:
Test Subject: INT(4)+RE(4) (8d6.hits(5)=3) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3319196/) = INI 11
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You going to roll up a battle? Damn, I want to join. XD
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OK it makes a bit more sense now. Thank you for breaking it down like that
But 10 completely looses me...
7. Subtract the Recoil Compensation from the number of rounds fired this Phase, then subtract one; the difference is the recoil modifier.
8. If the weapon is a heavy weapon, double the recoil modifier.
9. If the weapon is a shotgun and the fire mode is BF or FA, double the recoil modifier.
10. If the recoil modifier is greater than zero, subtract it from your pool.
Its really simple. A gun in Burst Fire mode shoots 3 rounds in each burst. You can do two bursts as a complex action. Now, this kicks the gun a bit, making it move off target. Each bullet after the first subtracts from your dice pool, so you'd be getting a -5 to hit. However, there are things like gas vent systems, personalized grips, shock pads, and the like that help you negate some of that kick. So if you have a RC on that weapon of 4, then that means you only get a -1 to hit.
Now, some guns kick more than others. Heavy Weapons (machine guns, grenade launchers, assault cannons, etc.) and shotguns in Burst Fire or Full Auto mode are the main candidates. Because these weapons kick more, any recoil you don't compensate for with RC counts double. So in the example above, you'd take a -2 to hit, while if you didn't have any RC at all, you'd take a -10 to hit.
It may look like a lot, but it is really simple once you get the hang of it.
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Roll initiative!
Raven vs. Test Subject 1
CT1, IP1:
Test Subject: INT(4)+RE(4) (8d6.hits(5)=3) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3319196/) = INI 11
8d6.hits(5) → [2,3,1,3,5,5,1,4] = (2) (You win)
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Test subject 1
Ready weapon (Simple action)
Fire a gun at Ravenspoe (Simple action)
Agility(4)+Pistols(4)+Smartgun(2)-Extreme range(6) (Partial light doesnt matter for the Low light vision so we can leave this out. Only one shot in this IP, so no recoil modifier) (4d6.hits(5)=1) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3319297/)
1 hit
Ravenspoe`s defence roll is next. He needs 1 hit on defence Two choices:
1) Roll Defense: Reaction
2) Roll Full defense: Reaction + Dodge, but consumes 1 complex action. It is interupt action, you may use it anytime, you can even use the first IP from your next Combat turn to do it. Well, using this means you will not be able to return fire (unless you got multiple IPs)
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OK it makes a bit more sense now. Thank you for breaking it down like that
But 10 completely looses me...
10. If the recoil modifier is greater than zero, subtract it from your pool.
A good rule of thumb is that the recoil penalty is equal to rounds fired so far in this phase* (including the shot you're now taking) -1. Or, the first bullet is "free" but every other bullet fired costs you a die.
Let's say I'm firing two short 3 round bursts on my phase. The first 3 round burst has a -2 recoil penalty (3 bullets fired so far -1 for 2). The second 3 round burst has a -5 recoil penalty (6 bullets, 3 from the first burst, -1 for 5).
You can negate the recoil penalty by using recoil compensation. A sample thing that reduces recoil is installing gas vents on your firearm. The recoil compensation reduces the penalty you suffer from recoil. In effect, you get more free bullets before you start to suffer from recoil penalties.
Let's look at the previous example of me firing two short 3 round bursts. This time, I have Gas Vent 3 on my firearm. Gas Vent 3 provides three points of recoil compensation. So my recoil penalty is now Number of Rounds fired this phase - 4 (-1 base -3 from the Gas Vents) with a minimum of 0. My first burst now has -0 recoil penalty (3 rounds -1 base -3 Gas Vent 3= -1 which is raised to 0). My second burst has a -2 recoil penalty (6 rounds - 4 = 2).
Weapons in the Heavy weapons (such as machine guns and grenade launchers) have worse recoil modifiers than this. Once you calculate the recoil penalty, you double it.
Let's say that the firearm I've been firing is a Light Machine Gun with gas vent 3. Now, on my first three round burst, the recoil penalty is still 0 (3 bullets fired - 1 base -3 Gas Vents = -1 raise to 0, 0 times 2 equals 0). On my second three round burst, the recoil penalty is now -4 (6 bullets fired -1 base -3 Gas Vents = 2, 2 times 2 equals 4).
*- A phase is basically your actions in a pass. You get 1 free action and either 2 simple or 1 complex action per phase.
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Defense = Reaction 4d6.hits(5) → [2,4,3,5] = (1)
Now my turn to fire back right?
Test subject 1
Ready weapon (Simple action)
Fire a gun at Ravenspoe (Simple action)
Agility(4)+Pistols(4)+Smartgun(2)-Extreme range(6) (Partial light doesnt matter for the Low light vision so we can leave this out. Only one shot in this IP, so no recoil modifier) (4d6.hits(5)=1) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3319297/)
1 hit
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You dodge as the bullet goes whizzing past your cheek, and indeed it is your turn. :D
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That is indeed, well look at the situation. You still got that -6 penalty for extreme range. you may return fire or use your actions otherwise...to find cover behind some of those garbage can etc. Go on :)
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You dodge as the bullet goes whizzing past your cheek, and indeed it is your turn. :D
Not too sure how far I can move in a turn, so I am going to say 10 Meters, kneel behind a trash can for cover (Free Action) Take Aim (Standard 1) Fire off a Shot (Standard 2). Using the same modifiers as you 5d6.hits(5) → [6,6,1,3,5] = (3) 3 hits on you
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To take aim you need to use Call shot (free action) first
BTW
Your weapon is still the holstered ;)
For a movement rate see rules, it is 10/25 for ork, so possible
Firing from cover is another -2 modifier
Not that simple ;)
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So re-do on my action:
Move 10 meters
Call Shot (free action)
Change Position <drop to knee behind trash can> (Standard 1)
Quick Draw and Fire (Standard 2)
I am minus 2 dice for firing from cover, I cannot find what quick draw penalty is so 2 dice
2d6.hits(5) → [1,5] = (1)
Looks like I glitch
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Quickdraw is a test:
Pistols+Reaction test with thresshold (3) If you make it, imo there is no more penalty
also
Call shot means that you kind of focus on shoting, IMO you cannot call shot for quickdraw well I may be wrong here? Others have an option? So it would be:
Movement to cover (Simple)
Quickdraw and fire (Simple) (roll quickdraw and if sucessfull roll shooting)
- Free action left
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Quickdraw is a test:
Pistols+Reaction test with thresshold (3) If you make it, imo there is no more penalty
also
Call shot means that you kind of focus on shoting, IMO you cannot call shot for quickdraw well I may be wrong here? Others have an option? So it would be:
Movement to cover (Simple)
Quickdraw and fire (Simple) (roll quickdraw and if sucessfull roll shooting)
- Free action left
I actually think he was doing a "Take Aim" Action which adds 1 dice to your dice pool when you fire, a called shot would - 1 to 4 dice in replace for 1 to 4 DV. Also a Called shot is a free action. Isn't movement a free action as well? And you can have as many free actions in a round as a DM will let you right?
So unforunately as far as i know you can't take a "Take Aim" action before drawing out his weapon, so he can't do a quick draw without firing so yeah he can't "take aim" unless he's saving that extra dice for the next round's shot.
Anyways from cover quick drawing you'd roll your eight dice (4 reaction + 4 Pistol skill) and you need 3 hits to be able to draw the gun and fire it in the same simple action. (if you suceed you just got a 2 for 1 deal if not then you simply have pulled your gun out.) (Note: you can reduce the threshold if you have a quick draw holster to only needing 2 hits which is very perferable btw) Anyways if you suceed you roll like you just did if your firing from cover. :D
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true, my fault, I thought you have to call shot to be able to take Aim. Well it is oposite, if you call shot, you must follow with take aim or fire, so this not apply for this situation. Sorry :)
you see Raven...its easy, we just need a little practice :D
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Otherwise
Subject 1 defense:
RE(4) (4d6.hits(5)=1) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3320039/)
That would be miss (@Ravenspoe: Lets consider that you draw your weapon in the first Simple action, during the movement)
New initiative:
RE(4)+INT(4) (8d6.hits(5)=4) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3320040/)
Distance: 40 m
Ravenspoe: Good cover
Test subject 1: No cover, Init 12
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Test subject's going to die out in the open it seems.... xD damn ganger's firing their pistol's sideways and missing!
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Test subject's going to die out in the open it seems.... xD damn ganger's firing their pistol's sideways and missing!
IMO he is far from it :) lets see and wait...
EDIT: I mean wait and see :O
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Test subject's going to die out in the open it seems.... xD damn ganger's firing their pistol's sideways and missing!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b143/CanRay/SightsOnTop.jpg)
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Haha! +1
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Question,
How does recoil work with Single Shot weapons? ???
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Recoil only matters at SA or higher. Single shot, don't worry.
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Question,
How does recoil work with Single Shot weapons? ???
It doesn't. Unless you're a Pixie trying to fire a Panther Assault Cannon. Then you're flying backwards until a wall stops you.
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That was part of the confusion, why there is a RC listed for weapons like the Panther, thought I was missing something.
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That was part of the confusion, why there is a RC listed for weapons like the Panther, thought I was missing something.
There used to be optional rules for firing a weapon bigger than you could handle, IIRC. And RC helped against that.
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That was part of the confusion, why there is a RC listed for weapons like the Panther, thought I was missing something.
There used to be optional rules for firing a weapon bigger than you could handle, IIRC. And RC helped against that.
That and they just used a single template for the charts.
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
Then I guess you don't want to hear my ideas to make it belt fed full auto?
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
Then I guess you don't want to hear my ideas to make it belt fed full auto?
Go ahead. That way I know what to look for. I would just disallow it in my games.
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
Then I guess you don't want to hear my ideas to make it belt fed full auto?
Go ahead. That way I know what to look for. I would just disallow it in my games.
That's what they thought about the machine gun, but look what happened there :P.
I don't think i'd be impossible but you know if your packing that kind of heat almost everything in the area might come down on you.... or someone else is going to want to steal that weapon. xD
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
Dude, they fire rounds in those sizes (I'm assuming in the 20mm-30mm range here) from fully automatic weapons all the time. Heck, the A-10 Warthog is built around the idea of firing them at a rate that can only be described as bullet spam.
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Bullet spam +1 :D
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Oh, and I almost forgot, the GA/U-8 is in the books, Arsenal p124, under the pseudonym "GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon"... though they rather underestimated the potential spread of one of those bursts, as demonstrated "HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuYmn_xYB78)".
The link goes to a team that came this >< close to being a Friendly Fire incident with an A-10. Needless to say, NSFW language is present.
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And you can use the rules in Arsenal to make that Panther do SA, BF, or (if you're truly insane) FA.
I use common sense on that. Common sense says there's no way to go BF or FA with a Panther
Dude, they fire rounds in those sizes (I'm assuming in the 20mm-30mm range here) from fully automatic weapons all the time. Heck, the A-10 Warthog is built around the idea of firing them at a rate that can only be described as bullet spam.
I have once seen a demonstration video where they used one to attack a tank. The tank actually jumped up from the ground a couple of times before exploding in a huge fireball. 40 tons of steel jumping from impact!
The issue with it as a weapon for a shadowrunner is that the A-10 main gun is bigger than a car and not really portable.
(http://mygunculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Size-matters-A10-gatling-gun1.jpg)
Rasmus
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And on Sons of Guns, they took a FA grenade launcher, and not only made it select fire, but they SUPPRESSED it as well!
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I have once seen a demonstration video where they used one to attack a tank. The tank actually jumped up from the ground a couple of times before exploding in a huge fireball. 40 tons of steel jumping from impact!
The issue with it as a weapon for a shadowrunner is that the A-10 main gun is bigger than a car and not really portable.
(http://mygunculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Size-matters-A10-gatling-gun1.jpg)
Rasmus
"So... We can totally fit that in the back of a box trailer, right?" "Oh yeah! Surprise the hell out of anyone that wonders why we're using a Semi to get away!"
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The issue with it as a weapon for a shadowrunner is that the A-10 main gun is bigger than a car and not really portable.
Yes, well, adding FA doesn't make the Panther a minigun, and one must also assume there have been some advances in miniaturization from the 1960s to the 2070s.
Plus, unlike the GA/U-8, the Panther doesn't have the capability to sustain full auto for more than a single burst before it runs out of ammo and needs to be reloaded, so all the extra bulk for ammo feeds, and the super-huge barrel wouldn't need to be there to begin with since it doesn't have a GA/U-8's range.
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You could mod the Panther to be belt-fed.
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You could mod the Panther to be belt-fed.
Don't give me ideas. My group already hates it when I go, "I'm adding more violence!"
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The issue with it as a weapon for a shadowrunner is that the A-10 main gun is bigger than a car and not really portable.
Yes, well, adding FA doesn't make the Panther a minigun, and one must also assume there have been some advances in miniaturization from the 1960s to the 2070s.
Plus, unlike the GA/U-8, the Panther doesn't have the capability to sustain full auto for more than a single burst before it runs out of ammo and needs to be reloaded, so all the extra bulk for ammo feeds, and the super-huge barrel wouldn't need to be there to begin with since it doesn't have a GA/U-8's range.
Add a drum? :D
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You could mod the Panther to be belt-fed.
Don't give me ideas. My group already hates it when I go, "I'm adding more violence!"
You should come join my group. I'm running a team of Saeder-Krupp "Troubleshooters". All sorts of perks, including a wall-sized Trid-viewer in the common lounge leading to the team's fully furnished apartments, S-K Security Force status letting you openly carry all sorts of fun toys that would get a normal Runner locked up, a Megacorp-grade equipment budget to buy those toys with and, best of all, FREE AMMO!
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Just enter another corporations turf and you will see how much of use is that S-K security badge you wear. I.E. Ares...
following comunication:
S-K: We got a group of specialists operating in the area.
A.M: We never seen anyone like those men on ID pictures you sent us. Have a nice day...
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Just enter another corporations turf and you will see how much of use is that S-K security badge you wear. I.E. Ares...
following comunication:
S-K: We got a group of specialists operating in the area.
A.M: We never seen anyone like those men on ID pictures you sent us. Have a nice day...
Except that they're on sanctioned operations, which means they're not going to be stepping on Ares "extra-territorial" toes, and can yell for help if they get blind-sided by an ambush... which is to say, I'm not looking to go there at this time. The game is, at least for now, more about dealing with overt, above-board stuff... like going after Runners to retrieve stolen goods, dealing with threats like Insect Hives, etc.
It's to provide a contrast to our Missions campaign, which requires a more... subtle... play style.
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Besides' Ares wouldn't get their hands dirty if they wanted to kill them, they'd just hire shadowrunners to take them out so that they "weren't involved". XD
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You should come join my group. I'm running a team of Saeder-Krupp "Troubleshooters". All sorts of perks, including a wall-sized Trid-viewer in the common lounge leading to the team's fully furnished apartments, S-K Security Force status letting you openly carry all sorts of fun toys that would get a normal Runner locked up, a Megacorp-grade equipment budget to buy those toys with and, best of all, FREE AMMO!
Thanks, just tease me all the more...
I just wanna play. :'(
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I just wanted to thank everyone on this thread who took the time to help me grok the rules.
It took awhile to sink in, but I am pretty confident in running the game now.
What really confused me was the quick rules that came with the Runner's Toolkit. If I remove 7-10 and add them in when I need to, it all become clear. Now to try and get Magic down.
Thanks again everybody! :D