Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Hellfire on <01-14-12/1757:01>
-
Hi chummers,
I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?
what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?
any (official) help or opinions are welcome.
best regards
Hellfre
-
Idk about the armor, but I always rule spirits being the same size as a vehicle close to their force. So a private-jet ally would be pretty damn powerful.
-
1. could he wear it?
Yes. I see no reason why not.
2. would he be encumbered?
From a "factual" standpoint, probably not. From a rules balance standpoint, he should suffer encumbrance under the auspices of having the "illusion of mass."
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
No. That said, it's a spirit, and therefore doesn't have the same physical properties as real substances, e.g. conductivity. Of course, I'd also not want to be "wearing" it in the cold because the human will freeze their ass off since the spirit isn't an insulator either.
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
Force or (Force x 2) if it has Immunity to Normal Weapons
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?
Sure
what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?
There's no hard and fast rule, but after having gone through the math to make a Force 9 free spirit that was a Great Form when it went free (which makes it even bigger than a normal spirit), I'd say that a good rule of thumb is that the spirit should be no bigger than Force cubic meters in usable volume. So it would have to be a damn powerful spirit to manifest as a plane.
If I was an ally spirit, I would curse the day my summoner was born and wish for a painful death for being treated like this, though.
-
The long and short of it is that you (and your GM) have access to the same actual rules we do. From here on out, you're going to be getting interpretations of those rules, and personal opinions of what we'd likely allow at our own games.
If your GM thinks it'll break the game to let it happen (or if you're the GM and you think so), the answer is no, it just doesn't work like that. Make up some mumbo-jumbo about how a living creature's aura projects a few inches from it in every direction, which is why you can see an aura through clothes, and how being wrapped so tightly in the aura of a magically active creature will disrupt one's natural ability to grow as a person and interact with other auras properly and blah blah blah whatever, just make shit up to justify it if you feel like it.
If a Body 2 magician waltzing around unencumbered in Force 12 hardened armor that looks like just form-fit is gonna be a problem, and that can cast spells just like the Magician can, is gonna be a problem...just say no. For spellcasters that want to be directly augmented by spirits, there's always Possession traditions (which are, of course, their own can of worms) instead. Ally Spirits are already pretty damned powerful, since they essentially give a PC a second really awesome and powerful magic-wielding player characters to use, all the time. If letting them use the Ally in this kind of way is gonna bust your game -- or if that's what your GM feels -- then there's no reason not to just decide it doesn't work that way...or to respect your GM's decision, if that's what they think.
-
Critias makes an excellent point on the opposite side of the Force/size spectrum. If you're going to be wearing a Force 6 spirit, it's going to look like a lot of armor because while there aren't clear numbers there is a correlation between Force and manifested size.
And if they are walking around in a full suit spirit, the manifested spirit may seem transparent, but the wearer isn't going to have true line of sight to cast spells.
-
As Critias says, rules-wise? Who knows, there really aren't rules.
Balance wise? Well, instead of having your ally spirit turn into a Armor Jacket and wearing it, you could have your ally spirit be Possession, buy an armor jacket, wear that, and have the ally possess it. There are slight advantages and disadvantages either way but really they're a wash. Based on that: I would say that you can have the ally spirit mimic any armor (including with armor modifications and stuff), but it works exactly like that armor - meaning a spirit Armor Jacket can encumber you, if it has Gel Packs, you take the extra knockdown, etc. I would treat it as providing +Force extra armor (since that's what would happen if the spirit possessed armor), but note that this does increase the encumbrance of the armor. Thus, for example, a f6 spirit that mimics an Urban Explorer jumpsuit would count as 12/12 armor, and you'd need Body 6 to not be encumbered.
-
For spellcasters that want to be directly augmented by spirits, there's always Possession traditions (which are, of course, their own can of worms) instead
Slightly off topic; but could a Free Spirit (or Ally Spirit) from a Possession tradition Possess someone who is brain-dead, but still technically alive, and take over their life, or simply walk out of the hospital and use their new body for whatever they were wanting to do?
As opposed to the Shedim, of course, who do the actual Zombies, that is.
-
Thanks for the opinions so far :)
Taking into account the answer by Criterias "a good rule of thumb is that the spirit should be no bigger than Force cubic meters in usable volume" should outrule the "ally as a plane" scenario, however are there any restrictions as to the size in the other direction?
In the rules description there is the example of the toaster, which even if it is only a force 1 spirit is far less than 1 cubic meter. So in your opinion could the ally be for example a pen, button or even smaller, regardless of force?
However I also find the explanation with two auras overlapping very good, so I would also outrule the "wear the ally as armor" scenario, thanks for this input.
-
However I also find the explanation with two auras overlapping very good, so I would also outrule the "wear the ally as armor" scenario, thanks for this input.
However, if you slap the Endowment power on the Spirit for 5 Karma, then it can Endow you with its Immunity to Normal Weapons, so you get the boost and it can still be out wrecking face instead of busy being worn.
-
a related question:
Can (more like: would you as a GM let) a Spirit manifest as two things? e.g.
a pair of shoes,
a garbage can and its lid,
etc
-
@justadude.
Endowment does not work in my opinion, as no spirit actually has immunity to normal weapons as a power, they only have materialization, which grants the spirit immunity to normal weapons when he is materialized. So IMO the spirit can only endow "materialization" to you, which is absolutely useless for a physical being. I take the endowment power literally: meaning power for me is what is listed under "powers" or "optional powers" in the critter stats.
@makki
I would allow for the spirit to manifest as a number of things, as long as these things are connected somehow, so shoes would work, as long as the shoelaces are bound together, same for the garbage can if the lid is attached by a hinge.
-
@justadude.
Endowment does not work in my opinion, as no spirit actually has immunity to normal weapons as a power, they only have materialization, which grants the spirit immunity to normal weapons when he is materialized. So IMO the spirit can only endow "materialization" to you, which is absolutely useless for a physical being. I take the endowment power literally: meaning power for me is what is listed under "powers" or "optional powers" in the critter stats.
Okay, look at SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.
Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons...
Pretty cut and dry, really. Now lets look at SM, p 99, under the Endowment power.
The spirit grants the use of one of its powers to the subject.
Please take note that the entry does not say anything resembling "one of the powers listed in its Critter entry..." All it states is that it grants "one of its powers". Yeah, I'll grant you that the spirit would have to Materialize before it can grant Immunity to Normal Weapons, but once it's Materialized then it has ItNW, and can grant it via Endowment. No room for ambiguity.
Basically, Hellfire, you aren't taking Endowment literally at all. You're creating a whole new restriction based on trying to force the power to work in a way that aligns with your preconceived notion of how it should work.
If you want to House Rule that it doesn't work at your table then feel free, if you're GM then your rules go after all, but according to strict interpretation of RAW, it does indeed work.
-
Okay, look at SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.
Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons...
Pretty cut and dry, really. Now lets look at SM, p 99, under the Endowment power.
The spirit grants the use of one of its powers to the subject.
Please take note that the entry does not say anything resembling "one of the powers listed in its Critter entry..." All it states is that it grants "one of its powers".
You realize just how cheezeball min-max rules lawyerish that is, yes?
And that's coming from me, the guy who shows up to Missions games with 24-dice-pool-at-chargen characters.
-k
-
You realize just how cheeseball min-max rules lawyerish that is, yes?
And that's coming from me, the guy who shows up to Missions games with 24-dice-pool-at-chargen characters.
Not rules-lawyerish at all, just understanding the true nature of the game. Besides, it requires ether shelling out the Karma for an Ally Spirit, or burning a service off a 5-hit Invoked Spirit to do, so it's not like it's "Woo-Hoo, Free Invincibility!!!"
RULES-LAWYERING would be trying to shoehorn it in under the definition of "available", because the rules for what power you can buy for your Ally Spirit (SM, p104) says "...any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure..." and ItMW is available to any spirit that can Materialize, Inhabit, or Possess something, because it gets it once it has Materialized, Inhabited, or Possessed something.
EDIT: Oh, yes, and if you use an Inabitation spirit that ends up in either a Hybrid Form or Flesh Form, then they ALWAYS have the ItMW power as long as they're Inhabiting.
-
Immunity to Normal Weapons is a side effect of Materialization, not a power in and of itself, at least for spirits.
There's a reason it's not listed separately in their stat block.
Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.
-k
-
Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.
Quoted for truth.
-
Immunity to Normal Weapons is a side effect of Materialization, not a power in and of itself, at least for spirits.
There's a reason it's not listed separately in their stat block.
Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.
No, I'm not saying "it doesn't technically say this", I'm saying that "the rules DO say this", as in there is a positive confirmation in the form of multiple entries in several different books saying that Spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons and that is is, indeed, an actual Power.
SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.
"Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal to twice their Force against all attacks."
Runner's Companion, p92, under Free Spirit Powers
"Spirits also have Immunity to Normal Weapons."
Street Magic, p100, under the Hybrid Form
"A hybrid form spirit has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), but loses the ability to assume an Astral Form (p. 287, SR4)."
Street Magic, p100 again, under Flesh Form
" A flesh form spirit is a dual-natured creature (p. 287, SR4), has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), any of the vessel’s natural and augmented abilities, and also gains the powers of Realistic Form (p. 102) and Aura Masking (p. 98)."
Street Magic, p102, under Possession and Vessels
"When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined being that results is dual-natured, has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4), and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills."
Got any rules references that contradict that?
I do believe I've just provided five separate instances in three different books backing my point, including one explicitly referencing that all Spirits have it without any context of being in the physical plane, and another explicitly calling Immunity to Weapons a power... you know, if the fact that Immunity is listed as a Power in both SR4A and Running Wild isn't enough for you.
-
I'll clarify.
Standard spirits do not have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power.
I am not talking about Ally spirits or possession/inhabitation spirits. Those are their own special deal. That knocks out the last four of your rules quotes.
Standard spirits DO have Materialization, which has the side effect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. I read the "Physical spirits have the power of ITNW" as a futher clarification making that effect of being physically materialized explicit, not as giving them an additional separate power apart from Materialization.
Therefore, a Great Form of a 'standard' spirit with Endowment cannot endow others with Immunity to Normal Weapons, because it doesn't have that power.
The best it can do, possibly is endow a mage with Materialization. While so endowed, I suppose an astrally projecting mage could Materialize, and would as a side effect of Materialization have INTW while doing so.
-k
-
I'll clarify.
And I'll explain why you're wrong.
Standard spirits do not have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power.
Says who?
"Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons..." is pretty damn explicit, and you have yet to actually give me a citation that counters that reference.
I am not talking about Ally spirits or possession/inhabitation spirits. Those are their own special deal. That knocks out the last four of your rules quotes.
Sorry, no dice buddy, that only gets rid of three of them.
The second citation, the one from Runner's Companion, has NOTHING to do with Ally Spirits, Inhabitation, OR Possession. It's a quote from the section regarding standard Powers for all Spirits from the Free Spirit section.
Standard spirits DO have Materialization, which has the side effect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. I read the "Physical spirits have the power of ITNW" as a futher clarification making that effect of being physically materialized explicit, not as giving them an additional separate power apart from Materialization.
I'm sorry but, once more, how does "spirits have the power" equal "spirits don't have the power"? You're quoting a string of text and then trying to argue the exact opposite of what you just quoted and hoping I won't notice.
The statement clearly means, using a simple Plain English reading, that a Spirit that is physical, aka has Possessed, Materialized, or Inhabited, has the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons. It may, or may, not have that power at any other time, but we do know that it has the power at any point in time it is relevant.
This is then clarified in Runner's Companion, which explicitly states that Spirits always have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons.
And yes, Immunity to Normal Weapons is a POWER. It is explicitly listed under Powers in SR4A, p295, and again under Paranormal Powers in Running Wild, p212.
If they have the effect, they have the Power, just like for a Critter to be Sapient they have to have the Power named Sapience. If they ever lose the power of Sapience they lose the effect.
Therefore, a Great Form of a 'standard' spirit with Endowment cannot endow others with Immunity to Normal Weapons, because it doesn't have that power.
Once more, you have yet to provide any actual evidence from primary source material to back up your unfounded assertion that this is so.
The best it can do, possibly is endow a mage with Materialization. While so endowed, I suppose an astrally projecting mage could Materialize, and would as a side effect of Materialization have INTW while doing so.
Wow... really? And that's LESS cheesy?
Dude, all you're doing is saying "I'm right because I say so," with a lot of words, and trying to spin-doctor facts into meaning the opposite of what they state.
EDIT: I'm always happy to admit when I'm wrong... when I'm wrong. You, however, have yet to counter any of my points, even with your very thinly veiled attempt to change the playing field by suddenly eliminating everything but Materialization Spirits after I lobbed a bunch of citations at you that blew your argument out of the water.
EDIT REDUX: I'm happy to play this game as long as you want, but the ORIGINAL ASSERTION was made ABOUT Ally spirits, which you have now eliminated from the equation because you thought they endangered your house of cards. Congratulations, you just made this entire debate irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm going to bed now; if you come up with anything that has some actual substance to it, feel free to try again.
-
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea. ;D
-
In reply to the last handful of posts...I'll just leave this here:
The long and short of it is that you (and your GM) have access to the same actual rules we do. From here on out, you're going to be getting interpretations of those rules, and personal opinions of what we'd likely allow at our own games.
;)
-
I'll correct myself here.
I'D BE HAPPY TO BE ABLE TO PLAY!
I'm going back to bed now.
-
First off, I apologize, I meant to say "free spirit" rather than "ally spirit" as one of the things I'm not discussing.
I am not saying that Immunity to Normal Weapons is not a listed power.
I am saying that Immunity to Normal Weapons as provided by Materialization is not a separate power in and of itself.
You can have an entity with Immunity to Normal Weapons listed in the stat block. If that entity also has Endowment, it could indeed endow folks with ITNW.
You can also one with Materialization in it's stat block. In this case, Materialization provides ITNW as a part of it's effects, but that provided ITNW is not a separate power on it's own and is inherent to the other power.
An analogy is that some creatures have listed Armor ratings. Other creatures wear physical armor, which provides the creature with an Armor Rating. However in the second case, the Armor Rating is inherent to the worn armor, not to the creature, and if you take that worn armor away the Armor Rating also goes away.
A creature with Endowment and Immunity to Normal Weapons can endow another creature with Immunity to Normal Weapons.
A creature with Endowment and Materialization can endow another creature with Materialization. It CANNOT endow just ITNW, as it doesn't have ITNW, it has Materialization.
Free Spirits, Inhabitation/Possession, have their own specific special rules.
Regular bog-standard summoned Spirits of Man, Earth, Water, Guardian, Task, etc spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapon as a consequence of being physically materialized, not as a separate power apart form Materialization.
You'll note that the quote from RC says "Physical spirits", not just "spirits". Meaning that they only have the effect while they are materialized physically. I read that as intending to explicitly spell out this effect that Materialization provides, not as intending to provide summoned spirits with a separate power in and of itself.
I say "intent" because most rules-lawyering revolves around rules-as-written versus rules-as-intended. I do not at all believe that the developers intended to provide ITNW seperately from Materialization, and as such do not believe it can be treated as a separate power for any reason, at least in the specific case of Materialization. The ITNW power was left off their stat blocks for a reason, not because it was an oversight, and the RC quote applies only to physical spirits, reinforcing my belief that it intends to mean they have ITNW only as a part of Materialization.
Non-inhabiting Ally Spirits can only be built with the powers of your summonable spirits, and they do NOT have ITNW as a separate discrete power. They can have Materialization, which provides ITNW, but they cannot have ITNW as a discrete power, nor can they endow it separately from Materialization.
-
Hi chummers,
I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?
what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?
any (official) help or opinions are welcome.
best regards
Hellfre
In my game, i allowed this. The character wanted to be more anime-like, so it ended up as a suit of half angelic, half "dark angelic" armor with wings which allowed him to fly and a big-az claw which used the spirit's melee attack as it's pool. It also pointed a big target sign on him that said "shoot at me, shoot at me!" Especially to any mages that assense him and see he is wrapped in a spirit.
The best way to handle it IMO is to just treat the armoring as actually being possessed by the spirit, and describe the effects of that to include spectral armoring. If you really want to go the materialization route like i did, I treat all attacks at the character as attacks at the spirit unless it is a called shot. If it is a called shot, the spirit doesn't help, as that was the point. Otherwise, the character dodges and the spirit soaks. With focused fire from teams of high level goons, the spirit ends up disrupted and now the armor is gone for 28 days - Force.
Also, the spirit has to focus on the form covering the entire living being except the face, so it is at a consistent -2 distraction penalty. (IMO)
-
You can also one with Materialization in it's stat block. In this case, Materialization provides ITNW as a part of it's effects, but that provided ITNW is not a separate power on it's own and is inherent to the other power.
An analogy is that some creatures have listed Armor ratings. Other creatures wear physical armor, which provides the creature with an Armor Rating. However in the second case, the Armor Rating is inherent to the worn armor, not to the creature, and if you take that worn armor away the Armor Rating also goes away.
...
You'll note that the quote from RC says "Physical spirits", not just "spirits". Meaning that they only have the effect while they are materialized physically. I read that as intending to explicitly spell out this effect that Materialization provides, not as intending to provide summoned spirits with a separate power in and of itself.
You're actually making my case for me. When you wear armor, you add the armor rating to your character until you take it off, just like you add the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons to a Spirit while it's Materialized.
The power Endowment doesn't say "it's potential powers", or "it's inherent powers", just "its powers." Like I said, you can play it however you want at YOUR table, but according to a precise and literal reading of the rules, Endowment only requires that the spirit have the power when the ability is used, NOT that it be one of their natural powers.
As for "not providing the power itself", that's total bullshit. Complete, utter, smells like a cow's ass bullshit. It says in every instance that it provides Immunity to Normal Weapons, not "an effect equivalent to Immunity to Normal Weapons", but the power itself.
One could even find grounds, on a more liberal interpretation of the section on Free Spirits (since the sentence in question says Spirits, not Free Spirits or Physical Spirits), to say that all spirits always have the power, and It's not listed on individual Spirit stat-blocks for the same reason Troll NPCS don't mention their +1/+1 armor or +1 Reach. Aka, it's a universal assumption that is so standard it doesn't bear repeating.
I say "intent" because most rules-lawyering revolves around rules-as-written versus rules-as-intended. I do not at all believe that the developers intended to provide ITNW seperately from Materialization, and as such do not believe it can be treated as a separate power for any reason, at least in the specific case of Materialization. The ITNW power was left off their stat blocks for a reason, not because it was an oversight, and the RC quote applies only to physical spirits, reinforcing my belief that it intends to mean they have ITNW only as a part of Materialization.
Okay, were you the one that wrote the rules in question? Do you actually work for CGL? If no to both, then your version of "the Rules As Intended" is no more valuable than mine. RAI is all about individual interpretations of what the developer means and is, therefore, worthless when talking about an abstract situation that doesn't involve a specific table.
What you call "Rules-lawyering", I call a precise and accurate interpretation of the mechanics of the game that is unfettered by personal sentiment and backed up by several direct, canonical references and MY interpretation of the Rules As Indented. And, honestly, I actually prefer the idea that all spirits always have ItNW, it just only comes into play when they're Materialized, but there's not enough RAW to really support that idea.
What you call "Rules As Intended" I call someone being a... well, better not go there. Suffice to say once again that I see your arguments as based on nothing but you taking your personal little-duck feelings and trying to throw them out onto the world at large as Absolute Truth, backed by nothing more than an attempt at twisting and re-writing of the basic, fundamental mechanics of the game (i.e. to get an effect you have to have the Power on your character at the time) to try to justify your negation bias.
Non-inhabiting Ally Spirits can only be built with the powers of your summonable spirits, and they do NOT have ITNW as a separate discrete power. They can have Materialization, which provides ITNW, but they cannot have ITNW as a discrete power, nor can they endow it separately from Materialization.
Okay then, lets look at Materialization:
Materialization
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Self • Duration: Sustained
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings. When materialized, critters may affect physical targets. Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Okay, so what's the actual effect of Materialization? I believe the key phrase is "projecting themselves into the material world". Therefore, all PCs, NPCs, and Critters that are already IN the material world and can interact with physical objects... especially the entities that are Dual Natured by default... are materialized by their very nature as physical beings. Give them the power of Materialization and they automatically get ItNW because they're now, effectively, Physical Spirits. No muss, no fuss, no need to Astrally Project.
THAT is rules lawyering.
At this point I suggest we let the subject drop unless you have anything more to add other than more of the same regurgitation of statements not supported in any way by the books, because frankly I'm running out of ways to explain to you that 2+2 = 4 whether a special little snowflake wants it to be 5 or not, and I don't feel like repeating myself.
-
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea. ;D
+1 for the talon name dropping 8)
-
I think it applies (JustADude is correct), but I'm not the GM (currently).
I think its nitpicky to say that ITNW isn't a power just because it isn't in the spirit's power list yet covered under Materialisation and about a 100 paragraphs of flavor text that say they do.
Is it really that broken when you look at the raft of other powers one can bestow using Endowment?
YMMV.
- J.
-
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea. ;D
+1 for the talon name dropping 8)
Hey, it's a good idea. Very green. ;D
-
I think it applies (JustADude is correct), but I'm not the GM (currently).
I think its nitpicky to say that ITNW isn't a power just because it isn't in the spirit's power list yet covered under Materialisation and about a 100 paragraphs of flavor text that say they do.
Is it really that broken when you look at the raft of other powers one can bestow using Endowment?
YMMV.
- J.
It's not about being broken or not. It's about design.
I tend to look at things not as a GM or as a player. I tend to look at them as a designer.
I happen to like Defined Meanings. They make things clear. If you set a specific meaning of a term, and use that definition uniformly, there's much less confusion.
So, yeah, it bothers me when I see someone use Endowment to work on something not on the spirit's specific list of powers, to allow any old mention of the word "power".
If you have a specific Defined Meaning of a word like "Power", it doesn't matter if the word is used offhandedly elsewhere in the book. In this specific case, I take Endowment to mean "powers on a creature's specific list".
If you take "power" to mean any possible mention of the word, well, it allows for tons of possible loopholes. Design-wise, that's messy. It bothers me.
Yes, many things in Shadowrun annoy me for this reason. Like "what is an initiative enhancer" - ask five Shadowrun players or GMs and you'll likely get six answers. The rules themselves vary on the meaning depending on which book or even which section of a book you read. Messy.
I simply don't view "ITNW as provided by Materialization" as being the same as having full on ITNW as a discrete power. I see powers "A" and "B". "B" provides effects that resemble "A" but is not actually "A". If a critter has "B" on his powers list, he can Endow "B", but not just "A". If a critter wants to endow just "A", he needs to have "A" on his powers list.
Finally, I really don't care for the snide personal insults a couple of other posters have worked into their responses. (not from you) I do admit to calling a particular tactic cheesy and rules-lawyering, but that's leveled at the tactic, not at the person. I don't know most folks here personally. So I don't cast any aspersions at their character. I only know what they post. I only address what they post.
-k
-
*SNIP*
I happen to like Defined Meanings. They make things clear. If you set a specific meaning of a term, and use that definition uniformly, there's much less confusion.
So, yeah, it bothers me when I see someone use Endowment to work on something not on the spirit's specific list of powers, to allow any old mention of the word "power".
*SNIP*
Design-wise, that's messy. It bothers me.
Yes, many things in Shadowrun annoy me for this reason.
*SNIP*
I simply don't view "ITNW as provided by Materialization" as being the same as having full on ITNW as a discrete power. I see powers "A" and "B". "B" provides effects that resemble "A" but is not actually "A". If a critter has "B" on his powers list, he can Endow "B", but not just "A". If a critter wants to endow just "A", he needs to have "A" on his powers list.
*SNIP*
Okay, like I said, you're inserting your personal distaste for the way parts of the game work into your evaluation of the situation. I get that, and that's perfectly natural. It's human nature to try and find ways to make the world work the way you think it should.
When I look at the RAW, and the fact that every single type and kind of spirit that can show up in the Physical World has Immunity to Normal Weapons when it's here, I interpret the RAI as "All spirits are supposed to have Immunity to Normal Weapons, we just derped up and decided to put it in the each and every entry on how they get to the physical world instead of their stat-blocks, because we're silly people and like to make things complicated."
Unfortunately, as I said earlier, trying to rely on the INTENTION of the rules for a universal interpretation is sloppy in and of itself, even sloppier than bad writing in the first place. That's like saying killing someone is okay because you just intended to scare him and your finger slipped. Endowment does not actually SAY "one of the powers on a creature's stat-block, including optional powers that have been chosen for that particular spirit", it just says "one of the creature's powers." Materialize, as well as the rules on Spirit Combat, however do specifically say they get "Immunity to Normal Weapons", not "an effect that resembles Immunity to Normal Weapons."
Logically speaking, it's "When A is active, B is temporarily added to the creature's Powers," and, under that interpretation, the spirit can Endow ItNW, but only when materialized, and it has to stay material the whole time the effect is active.
And as for the snide commentary... buddy, I've been asking you ever since this started to give me any evidence from anywhere in the actual source material that backs up your interpretation. You have not, and pretty much cannot, because it doesn't exist. Yet you keep insisting that you're right, in the face of all logical argument. So pardon me for finding your behavior worthy of insult.
-
I apologise. I had thought that using "I believe this" and "My view is" would make it clear I was expressing opinion. Reading rules is all about interpretation, and while I can understand your assertion, and the reasoning behind it, I don't agree with it.
As for rules references, very well.
I couldn't remember where I'd seen an author opinion on the subject, but digging around turns up this entry in the FAQ:
"Most spirits don’t have Immunity to Normal Weapons unless they’re materialized or possessing a vessel"
This reinforces my belief that ITNW being left off the spirit power lists is intentional, not accidental.
I stated the reasoning behind my assertions. Aside from the power lists and the FAQ, the reference in RC to summoned spirits gaining ITNW is specifically only for physically manifested ones.
I will admit to a great distaste to "use RAW and only RAW" arguments because doing so often results in wildly broken combos that were probably not what the author intended. I prefer to reason out the intent behind the words when possible.
I will note that I will not level insults on your character based on some internet discussion. I don't know you personally and cannot make such a pronouncement. I have always held that one should always attack the subject, never the person. Otherwise it stops being a discussion. I simply don't agree with your interpretation.
In any case, I agree that our positions have been clearly stated and further discussion is probably not helpful.
-k
-
As for rules references, very well.
I couldn't remember where I'd seen an author opinion on the subject, but digging around turns up this entry in the FAQ:
"Most spirits don’t have Immunity to Normal Weapons unless they’re materialized or possessing a vessel"
This reinforces my belief that ITNW being left off the spirit power lists is intentional, not accidental.
Now, you see, this I can work with. It actually provides a concrete foundation for your arguments, so we're talking about something external and abstract, that can be defined quantitatively. A lot of people question the FAQ, but I tend to think it's accurate except for a the places where inconsistencies were found. With that citation, I'll agree with you on the specifics of it being intentional that the power isn't permanent... though I have to ask why a Spirit would need or benefit from ItNW when they're not materialized or possessing something?
And I do apologize for getting personal, but I process information in a very precise and logical manner. People who talk about their views and opinions without giving me anything external to work with just aggravate the hell out of me. It's like arguing about religion. That's the reason I talk about RAW; it's because the way I envision the process of creating the rules for the game. RAW is the literal and fixed representation of the rules, then each GM interprets it into the RAI and sets up House Rules to adjust it as they see fit.
The broken combos are quite possible under RAW; it's part of the GM's job to stomp on the ones he doesn't want showing up, and he has the power to do so. The difference between RAW and the Table Rules does need to be acknowledged, though.
But, yes, I think we've reached the point where we've agreed to disagree... though I do feel compelled to point out that the FAQ once again mentions Immunity to Normal Weapons directly. ;)
-
Using plain rules (RAW), i have to agree with JustADude. Spirits gain the "power" ITNW, while physical and no matter why and where they got a power from, as long as they have it, they can pass it on with endowment. No restrictions.
But thinking aside the rules, how stuff would actually work, spirits only have the "power" because they are not really present in the mundane world. Its more like an extension of them. That's the reason why mundane weapons have difficulties harming them and its expressed by giving them ITNW. Its nothing they can switch on or off, nothing they have any control over, therefor no transferring. Same goes for "powers" like Sapience or Natural Weapon of the Beast Spirit or even energy aura, its just there as a part of the spirits form itself.
I personally would rule that only active powers(powers a spirit can decide to use or not) can be transferred, not something that's just there without the spirits doing.
Edit: Looking at all the powers, i would probably disallow endowment of all powers with the description "Action:auto", as they all seem to be part of the critter form itself, they don't have influence over that.
Edit2: Another interesting approach with endowment would be, if you get a hold of a shadow spirit, to endow the endowment power to it, which in return endows you with its Energy Drain (Karma) power. That's the quick and evil way to more power ;-)
-
Edit2: Another interesting approach with endowment would be, if you get a hold of a shadow spirit, to endow the endowment power to it, which in return endows you with its Energy Drain (Karma) power. That's the quick and evil way to more power ;-)
I was searching some advise upon rulling ally spirit and saw this...
I allready thought of something like this but rather than searching for a shadow spirit If I really want it I will probably go for a vampire or nosferatu... (evil way you said ;))
BA
-
I don't know, I have to disagree with justADude, and while he won't like the reasons why, I can't help but think them logical.
A spirit's fundamental form is as an immaterial entity. In this form, it does not have ITNW, as clearly stated by RAW quotations provided by JaD. In order to possess that power, it must use another power, Materialization. Now, sure, you could interpret the rules to mean that powers provided by powers are able to be endowed, but that sort of opens a can of worms that all make very little sense to me, and the rules are abundantly clear at every turn that while spirits may possess the power, the power is provided by materialization. It is definitively interpretation to say either point of view beyond that is correct, given that the rules say nothing at all about endowing powers provided by powers, and repeatedly quoting that when materialized, the spirit possess the ITNW power does not change the fact. I won't bother saying this is merely my opinion - if you can't figure that out, you've no place responding.
If you prefer to stick to your "the literal wording and nothing else" approach, then one could say that if a Spirit takes the form of say, form fitting body armour, since it mimics that object in form and function exactly, it would only be a set of form fitting armour. No added armour rating from being a spirit, no ITNW (unless endowed), no perks at all except the exact ones provided by Form Fitting Armour (6B/2I). An effect much more cheaply provided by some under two thousand nuyen and under twelve availability items.
-
Hi chummers,
I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?
what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?
any (official) help or opinions are welcome.
best regards
Hellfre
I think it comes down to tradition. While a chaos mage who embraces technology and views spirits as tools might go for this, an animal shaman who is a technophobe and respects his spirits likely would not. Even in the case of a chaos mage it may be inappropriate.
If it were allowed;
1. sure
2. as normal armor
3. no
4. as normal armor + ITNW
5. yes
As for the plane question, any materialized spirits can fly. I'd guess that their carrying capacity would be based on their strength (i.e. their force). Presumably the spirit suit would also allow you to fly.
-
I was searching some advise upon rulling ally spirit and saw this...
I allready thought of something like this but rather than searching for a shadow spirit If I really want it I will probably go for a vampire or nosferatu... (evil way you said ;))
Well, vampires are only able to drain essence. Not really the same and quite harmless.
-
If you prefer to stick to your "the literal wording and nothing else" approach, then one could say that if a Spirit takes the form of say, form fitting body armour, since it mimics that object in form and function exactly, it would only be a set of form fitting armour.
Wouldn't it need Realistic Form to do that?
-
Wouldn't it need Realistic Form to do that?
Ally spirits & realistic form, could they pose as armor & with which rating?
-
*facepalm*
Long day, sorry!
-
Hmm... it's not a bad question. To the OP... I'd use the possession rules as a guide.
If the spirit possessed an existing suit of armor, it would simply increase it's ratings by it's force (I'd say non-encumbering though it's never spelled out). Realistic form gets rid of the annoying problem of being obviously magical to everyone around.
So if you had a particular say film noire trench coat (think those are like 6/4 in the main book...), then had your force 6 posses it, it's ratings would go up to 12/10.
If you created one out of thin air with materialization I'd limit it to force. You gain the advantage of surprise being able to conjure something potentially useful out of nothing. I think a good example of this would be if your ally took the form of something like a weapon like a sword. One of my friends like to consider getting an ally to inhabit a sword with an asbestos hilt possessed by an ally to try and add on elemental aura. Again I can see a good case for making it non-encumbering, but not stacking with other worn armor which doesn't normally stack.
Again remember, you can buy alternate realistic forms for your spirit after it's made for very cheap karma costs. So you have a lot of variety in what it could materialize as. With possession... you need to invest in goodies to possess (and preferably turn them into prepared vessels) which you then need to sneak through security and such... so I can see the case for enhancing an existing item while starting a new one from 0.
In NEITHER CASE (emphasis needed)... would Immunity to Normal Weapons extend to the wearer... the COAT would be nigh indestructible. This could reflect itself as bullets go through the coat... after which it magically stitches itself back together etc. (no different than ItNW doesn't mean that bullets don't go through say a ghostly form... they simply have no damaging affect on it).
That's just my views... mostly just from trying to stay within the letter of the rules without being excessive.
-
In NEITHER CASE (emphasis needed)... would Immunity to Normal Weapons extend to the wearer... the COAT would be nigh indestructible. This could reflect itself as bullets go through the coat... after which it magically stitches itself back together etc. (no different than ItNW doesn't mean that bullets don't go through say a ghostly form... they simply have no damaging affect on it).
Very good point, i think you are right.
There is a reason the description of this power has all the appearances of "armor rating" in quotes - because its not a real armor rating. Immunity describes that something gets just less affected. A bullet would get right through...
Edit:
I disagree with the strengthening effect like possession though. But you could just ask the spirit to form a better type of armor.
So the answers to the OP would be
1. could he wear it? yes
2. would he be encumbered? yes, like the normal type of armor
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity? no
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be? like the normal type of armor
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit? no, the attacks go right through the spirit
-
Many thanks for all answers so far and for the lively discussion reg. something completely different (is ITNW a power or not)
I have now decided on your input and as a GM I rule it the following way:
1. wearable armor: YES
2. Encumbrance: YES
3. Armor mods: Nothing (too) technical, like Nonconductivity / AR Interface etc.
4. Armor rating: like the physical representation (form as an armor jacket has the armor ratings of an armor jacket etc.)
5. Summoner wearing armor profits from ITNW: NO!
thanks again.