Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Leevizer on <02-07-12/1607:55>
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Damnit Bill!
No, anyway, no L4D. The question here is the first aid and it's rating. So if I understand correctly, the level of the first aid kit replaces that of your first aid, unless it's higher. So why would anyone buy first aid as a skill instead of just maxing out a first-aid kit? Or did I misread or misunderstand something?
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You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies. Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.
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You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies. Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.
...Does that mean that I don't even need a first-aid kit to perform first-aid if I have the skill?
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You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies. Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.
...Does that mean that I don't even need a first-aid kit to perform first-aid if I have the skill?
You need the medical supplies, but not necessarily from a MedKit.
But sometimes you just have to improvise.
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*ahem*
If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests. Note that medkits and autodocs can be accessed and controlled remotely via the Matrix/wireless link.
In other words, the Rating is added to the dice pool no matter WHAT your character's skill rating is. So, if you have First Aid 6 and a MedKit R6, you add 12 dice to the Dice Pool (plus your attribute/misc modifiers).
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If I remember right, what is replaced is the maximum hits you can get on the roll to do the healing. That way if you have a good medical kit, you can still keep someone from dying with a 1 in First Aid (which is what I'd imagine someone who has taken one or two CPR courses would have).
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The wording is absolutely horrible. What the rules actually say when it comes to first aid is this:
1. Threshold is (2)
2. You heal a box of damage for each net hit over the threshold (hits - 2)
3. The maximum damage that can be healed is equal to the skill rating being used.
4. First aid must be applied within 12 hours of the damage.
5. First aid can only be used once for a set of wounds.
Now then, the medkit can work in three different ways:
Case A). Trained characters (First Aid 1 or higher) may add the the first aid kit's rating to their dice as a modifier.
Case B). Untrained characters (First Aid at 0) use the device rating in place of their skill.
Case C). The Medkit can be left hooked up to a target and rolls only its device rating for the test.
Now this actually means it works three different ways ruleswise (I said it was worded horribly right). To break it down fully.
Case A). The device rating is not used as a skill but as a modifier. This means you get +Device Rating to your roll, but you're still capped at healing a number of wounds equal to your skill rating (point 3). This may not seem like much, but considering that you need 3 hits to heal one box (Points 1 and 2) which is an average of nine dice, its not a bad investment to take a first aid kits. Afterall a rating 6 kit only adds 2 hits on average which given an average attribute of 3 and a proficient skill 3 would still mean you won't cap out your healing ability on average. Keep in mind that first aid can only be used once, so usually the highest skill level character should be doing it (unless they have racked up the penalties).
Case B). The wording can be taken two ways. First it can be taken to mean that the players skill is treated as the device rating in which case the player is capped at healing a number of wounds equal to the device rating (point 3). Keep in mind that this requires a number of hits equal to device rating+2 which is unlikely to occur unskilled. The second way is that the character uses the medkit as their skill dice (but not in every respect) which would mean that the hero cannot actually heal any wounds (0 skill combined with point 3).
Case C). The medkit uses its device rating for its skill and can heal a maximum number of boxes equal to its device rating (point 3). Keep in mind that this is impossible since it only rolls a number of dice equal to it's device rating and even with all hits it will only heal a number of boxes equal to hits - 2 (Point 1 and 2).
In summary, I think medkits should replace the cap but I can't find a ruling where they actually do.
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Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?
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In summary, I think medkits should replace the cap but I can't find a ruling where they actually do.
The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124.
The maximum number of boxes that First Aid can heal is the Rating of the medical equipment or the First Aid skill of the character, whichever is higher (see pp. 242–244, SR4 ).
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Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?
I guess it would depend on the GM, but I would rule that you'd only be able to heal the new damage, as in what's been caused since you last first aided them.
The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124.
I don't know how I missed that. It's not used in Missions unfortunately, but it's nice to know they addressed the issue at least.
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The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124.
I don't know how I missed that. It's not used in Missions unfortunately, but it's nice to know they addressed the issue at least.
I bugged Bull about it on the Mission FAQ page so I'm hoping he'll add it.
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Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?
I guess it would depend on the GM, but I would rule that you'd only be able to heal the new damage, as in what's been caused since you last first aided them.
You do realize that what I described is commonly called 'Surgery'
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Surgery would be covered by Medicine though, not first aid. Medicine specifically states that taking new damage qualifies as a new set of wounds.
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So when you use first aid, you have to heal all stun damage before physical damage? Say I have 5 physical damage and 3 stun damage: I get 6 net hits on my first aid test and so I heal 3 stun and 1 physical but cannot heal 4 physical and leave the stun there?
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In all of the groups I've seen, you call a set of wounds (ie the bullet holes in Joe) and roll your skill to restore that. You can choose to focus on Stun damage first, but most people heal the physical first and then do stun damage later because stun damage can be healed by resting for an hour (and then you make a healing test), rather than on a 1-day interval as it would be for healing physical damage.
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In all of the groups I've seen, you call a set of wounds (ie the bullet holes in Joe) and roll your skill to restore that. You can choose to focus on Stun damage first, but most people heal the physical first and then do stun damage later because stun damage can be healed by resting for an hour (and then you make a healing test), rather than on a 1-day interval as it would be for healing physical damage.
Awww, man!
This was a new jacket!
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I've run mine for a long time (several editions) that you mark each wound different on your damage track. Each wound can be treated separately for First Aid. Which means a single bad hit of 8 boxes is far worse, healing wise, than taking 4 2 box hits.
Example: Smokin' Joe gets shot and takes 4 boxes. Player would mark those with "/". Later that run he gets stabbed for 2 boxes. Player would mark those with "-", etc.
Solved my problems right away. Then again, in my games, healing is done with Body (not Bodyx2) and damage modifiers apply to healing tests. *shrug* ;)
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That's an excellent way of keeping track. Someone should write to the Chummer creator, make a way to change the symbols or something.
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Adding specificity to an abstraction seems unnecessarily complicated.
Why not just state if you're treating physical or stun damage?
I mean, really, plugging up a bullet hole isn't gonna fix stun damage, and an ice pack and some aspirin isn't gong to fix a sucking chest wound.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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That's not what we're talking about. He told us the way he keeps track of separate wounds for checking how they interact with the "can only heal/first aid once" limit. I said it'd be nice if Chummer had something like this. I'm picturing it working similar to how Minesweeper worked back in the day. Right click the square, it cycles through a few symbols. Easy to do, easy to understand, adds functionality.
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Okay, you're still adding unnecessary complexity and, actually, making first aid much more powerful in the majority of cases.
The "treat once" rule exists simply to keep you from repeating treatment until fully healed.
A the end of a fight, you treat as many boxes as you can. If you're really worried that, after the next fight, somebody might get an extra box or two, mark the boxes as treated.
Tracking individual wounds makes no sense in an abstract system. The entire damage system is designed to be a simplified representation.
You treat a wounded individual, not an individual wound.
Treating the accumulated damage as individual wounds negates the vast majority of damage. You can simply do away with accumulated damage from minor wounds. Doing it your way would make Tanks, and really anyone with any significant amount of armor, much more powerful, as they tend to get worn down, rather than taking huge hits.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Hmm... I see your point. So you can only use first aid once, and then you can't do it again until you're fully healed? What if you get down to only a few boxes of damage, then you enter combat and take damage?
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Hmm... I see your point. So you can only use first aid once, and then you can't do it again until you're fully healed? What if you get down to only a few boxes of damage, then you enter combat and take damage?
We split up your gear and check your pockets for money?
If you survive, you get patched up, again.
First aid can be used once per set of wounds.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Basically you can't go "I got shot 7x, five times with 1S damage and twice with 4P each. I use First Aid seven times, then use Heal on the physical wounds, boom all gone." However, if you gather 3S, get that patched up to 1S left, then take 2S more, those 2S can be removed with another First Aid test.
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Remember first aid and then the heal spell.
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YMMV. It's worked for my games and groups for 20+ years. Just presenting another option.
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Hmm... I see your point. So you can only use first aid once, and then you can't do it again until you're fully healed? What if you get down to only a few boxes of damage, then you enter combat and take damage?
We split up your gear and check your pockets for money?
If you survive, you get patched up, again.
First aid can be used once per set of wounds.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
:o I thought I was the only person in the world that looted fallen teammates.
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It's a well honored tradition.
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Carrying money in your pockets... Freaking plebs. Firebug takes your gun, commlink, and shoes and then rides off to the nearest spoof-able bathhouse to chill while she hacks your bank account and pirates all your music.
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YMMV. It's worked for my games and groups for 20+ years. Just presenting another option.
And I'm just pointing out that its a houserule, not an actual rule, and that it will significantly impact the effectiveness of First Aid.
Your post sated that it makes a single 8 box hit harder to heal than several minor wounds. It actually has no effect on the difficulty of healing a single major wound, but makes healing multiple lesser wounds pretty much automatic. In a system where minor wounds are, by far, the most common, the net result is a massive power boost to First Aid.
I've got no problems with houserules, but if you post one, it is open to analysis and critique. Doubly so, if the stated mechanic doesn't function as advertised.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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So what's the RAW system for first aid? Use it, then if you're injured again you can use it again? Use it once per major conflict, meaning if you used it midcombat, you couldn't use it again until after another fight? Once per day?
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RAW says that First Aid may be used once per "set of wounds", what this means is probably the source of debate.
Personally, I rule that each time First Aid (or the Heal spell) is applied, it sets the currently sustained damage as a "set of wounds". First Aid cannot be applied again to any of the damage that is not healed by that particular batch of First Aid. If additional damage is taken, then that additional damage is considered part of a new "set of wounds" and First Aid can be applied, but still cannot heal any of the damage that remained from the previous set (no taking a single box of damage and suddenly being able to heal more of the previous damage). The Heal spell functions the same way, locking current damage as a set of wounds for both First Aid and magical healing, since First Aid cannot be applied to someone after magical healing is applied, but the skill only locks against the skill.
Since First Aid is actually quite difficult to use in Combat (it takes Combat Turns, not passes), this method actually awards people who use it mid-combat. If you manage to heal in the middle of combat and then take more damage, you can potentially heal more than with the single attempt after the combat. But like I said, using First Aid mid-combat is very time consuming, and likewise the Heal spell requires time to become permanent, so the risks seem to support the benefits.
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So say a set of wounds comprises all wounds taken in an entire combat encounter. Does first aid have to heal the stun damage before it can go on to heal the physical damage?
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It says or, so basically you need to pick. That does imply that you can't do both, so you wouldn't be able to heal 1S, 1P at the same time.
Usually you'd do the P damage, since S can be recovered by resting, but if you got faith the Heal spell can fix that all up, you'll want to target the S.
A note here: You can only magically heal a woundset once per set of injuries. It doesn't state what happens if you stop sustaining the spell before it becomes permanent. Would it be possible to stop sustaining the Heal spell, take a five-minute breather, then try again without a failure penalty because you rolled horribly the first time 'round? Or does the second you start casting it mean you either finish it or waste the chance?
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If you stop sustaining the spell before the effects become permanent, then the spell fails to take effect. You'd have to try casting again - granted, you'd have to check with your GM as to whether your character would realize "the roll went badly, so instead of trying what I know I can do now, I'll stop and try to re-roll it in a minute". There's a reason you can use Edge to negate a glitch.
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You get to use Magic to heal a set of wounds once.
If you screw it up, you screw it up.
Any GM worth their pizza is going to see purposely sabotaging your own spell as an obvious exploit, and require you to roll vs Drain for the second attempt with no hope of actual healing.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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So if the mage gets shot while trying to Heal you and loses concentration, or the medic gets shot and has to duck for cover while treating you, the moment's gone.
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YMMV. It's worked for my games and groups for 20+ years. Just presenting another option.
And I'm just pointing out that its a houserule, not an actual rule, and that it will significantly impact the effectiveness of First Aid.
Your post sated that it makes a single 8 box hit harder to heal than several minor wounds. It actually has no effect on the difficulty of healing a single major wound, but makes healing multiple lesser wounds pretty much automatic. In a system where minor wounds are, by far, the most common, the net result is a massive power boost to First Aid.
I've got no problems with houserules, but if you post one, it is open to analysis and critique. Doubly so, if the stated mechanic doesn't function as advertised.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
LOL, you misunderstand. I fully expect that if it is posted, it will be up for analysis and critique, house rule or not. I wouldn't have posted if that were a problem. I was merely stating it as an option to show I wasn't trying to state that's how it "is".
As for it making First Aid more potent, for smaller wounds yes it can. In my 4th ed games it balances rather well when using the slower heal times (bod only, not bodx2) and wound mods to healing tests. Healing as-is works too well on an individual basis. Images of solitary sammies crashing on a couch and waking up in 24-48 fully healed. No real need for First Aid really, but does help. Add a mage and they're back on the run that night.
What this has done for my games is add a little more emphasis to having a medic. With battlefield dressings and stitches, the minor wounds do keep the party together and running longer but has added a bit more seriousness to a heavy wound.
As for the 8 box wound vs 2 - 4 box wounds, what I mentioned was healing wise. Meaning in general to heal from, not necessarily First Aid. I see how I made that vague and not entirely on point, poor wording on my part.
Now add a mage with magical healing and all bets are off in either option. Then again, I also add a descriptive (non mechanic) option to my magical healing. Descriptions of the bones knitting, skin growing back ( a very itchy sensation to be sure) as well as serious hunger for the healed once the spell ends. ( on the assumption the spell super amps the body's natural healing process to the nth degree, blah, blah, blah). This has had a side effect of the party getting MVP cards to the local Stuffer they frequent. ;D