Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Dracain on <02-11-12/1316:47>
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I am making an elf combat mage, and thought I would see what the people here thought of it.
Elf-30BP
Attributes
40BP BOD-5
10BP AGI-3
20BP REA-3
0BP STR-1
40BP CHA-7
20BP INT-3
20BP LOG-3
40BP WIL-5
65BP MAG-6
0BP ESS-1
BP total=255
Positive qualities
Magician(Black Magic)-15BP
Sun mentor-5BP
Restricted gear (power focus)-5BP
BP total=25
Negative qualities
Bad Luck-20BP
Compulsion (pyromania)-15BP
BP total=35
Skills
26BP Spellcasting(combat)-6 ( 8 )
6BP Summoning (fire)-1(3)
12BP Counterspelling-3
4BP Assensing-1
4BP Dodge-1
4BP perception-1
BP total=56
Gear+Lifestyle
All I got so far that there will be a power focus 4 and a sustaining focus 3, as well as some nice armor.
BP total=31
4BP for binding the power focus
3BP for binding sustaining focus (increased reflexes)
Contacts
dunno, probably a talismonger C4/L3
BP total=7
Spells
Flamethrower+Fireball
Powerbolt+Powerball
Stunbolt+Stunball
Increase Reflexes+(undeterminded spell)
BP total=24
Now I realize that this setup is lacking in melee, but it has some hard hitting spells. Any advice is appreciated.
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I'd say reduce the Magic by one and put Strength to 3. Strength 1 can draw a lot of GM aggro your direction.
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You could also drop Conjuring Group 2 for Summoning 3 Binding 2. You have to get really lucky for Banishing to be useful.
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Thanks for the quick replies. I was unsure on the magic points, because I am trying to max out as much magic skill as possible. But that would probably be best now that you mention it. I mean, how often do you need magic 6 right off the bat.
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You could also drop Conjuring Group 2 for Summoning 3 Binding 2. You have to get really lucky for Banishing to be useful.
Yeah, Banishing, from how I've seen it discussed does seem like a bit of a joke, so doing this may not be a bad idea. Though if you take my suggestion, you'd have 5 points left which you could then reduce Spellcasting by 1 and drop Aptitude and drop Dodge down to 1 (you're not a melee combatant after all). This all total will give you 27 points, 12 of which could then go into having Summoning and Binding both at 4. You could then use the remaining 15 to get Influence skill group at 1 and put the last 5 into Contacts or Resources. You might want to vary up the spells a bit since you seem to have a lot of combat spells and not many that are utilitarian.
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You can't have more than 35 points of qualities.
I suggest looking at the Archetypes magicians in my signature for guidelines on how to build effective magicians.
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Missed the 35 point limit on positive qualities, thought it was only for negative qualities, thanks for pointing that out. And I did check out the archetypes you made, that's where I heard of the sun mentor. If I get some more utility spells, what would you all suggest? I wanna keep a focus on the combat spells, though it would most certainly make sense to add in some utility spells. Any suggestions? Just edited the original post to show the changes, leaving it with 31 free BP. I am thinking putting 20 into str and 10 into bod so I have a bit more physical health and can wear some heavier armor.
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The big thing you aren't doing but would benefit from: Using Foci. They are good. Specifically, Sustaining foci (for Increase Reflexes in particular) and Power Focus.
Strength is not useful for this type of character (in fact it's only useful for very specific niches). If you have 2 it should be for RP/not drawing GM aggro, not for usefulness.
Pistols 3 is not worth it. You have plenty sources of boom.
Focused Concentration is too expensive for what it does. A mentor spirit is much better. I would also get Restricted Gear for a force 4 power focus like all the other cool kids.
You have too many spells with too much redundancy. Cut down to:
Stunbolt, Stunball (use these on living targets you can see)
Flamethrower,Fireball (really, I would recommend a different element, like Light or Ice, because fire resistance is fairly common, but nobody resists oddball elements like Blast) (use these on nonliving or stun-immune targets, and Fireball to hit people you can't see.
You can also use Powerbolt instead of Flamethrower.
Increase Reflexes is a good spell.
Armor is not, because it makes you glow. It's also not worth sustaining without a focus.
I'm going to recommend my sig again for other good utility spells, since I have the descriptions listed there.
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Missed the 35 point limit on positive qualities, thought it was only for negative qualities, thanks for pointing that out. And I did check out the archetypes you made, that's where I heard of the sun mentor. If I get some more utility spells, what would you all suggest? I wanna keep a focus on the combat spells, though it would most certainly make sense to add in some utility spells. Any suggestions? Just edited the original post to show the changes, leaving it with 31 free BP. I am thinking putting 20 into str and 10 into bod so I have a bit more physical health and can wear some heavier armor.
Even numbers on Body and Willpower bring tears. Go with either 3 or 5. Four might give a bit more armor and another soak die, but that's it, no extra damage track beyond what you get from 3. I'd say at least a Strength 2 if you want to be weaker than an average person in that area, though I'd try to get 3 if possible. With the hits needed to really do much summoning and binding, you should try to have 4 in those skills.
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I see, I just thought I should do that so I could have 8 in armor instead of 6 (and stick some stuff in the helmet that I could than wear). The str bit makes sense as well. Is summoning and binding really that useful? I have seen been going through some combat mage builds and they didn't really use summoning, so I didn't think it was that necessary. In the archetypes on this page I saw one guy without any summoning, and one dude with only 1 point, so I didn't think it was one of those things that is that important. Or is it one of those "all or nothing" type skills, where there is no point in getting it unless you get it to a nice level?
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Maybe i'm missing it...but you might want an Edge attribute. Edge is really really crucial....especially for mages. I don't feel the 6 magic is worthit. Go for 5 magic and even lower on your Cha to give yourself more Edge.
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I have the bad luck quality, so I don't want to use edge to much. And I can't lower my CHA because I am an elf. That is my minimum CHA. But I was considering edge, it just seems that it would be better to use the points on skills, because every time I use edge, I give myself a one in six chance to completely screw the pooch and make it a million times worse.
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Forgot about the whole being an elf thing. Didn't notice that in your qualities. If you like that quality then you're right, but just remember that for mages, hits on Edge dice aren't capped by force. Edge is mighty mighty powerful. An unlucky mage is a pretty dangerous thing!
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Thanks for the tips, it was originally uncouth or incompetent in a couple social skills, but I kept hearing about that made your character easy to beat socially, instead of just hates social interaction. I liked the idea of someone who hates most social interaction, and distrusts people as his first response. But those two qualities seem to make it so I believe everything someone says to me, and will fall for any trick (also the incompetent in 4 social skills plan means I end up with 4 notoriety). So this basically brings it down to either bad luck, which works just fine for me. Or uncouth, which means my character is a gullible idiot, which wouldn't work very well.
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Just a metagaming tip though....GM's very rarely use social skills against players. For example, if someone is trying to Con you, GM's will usually handle this true roleplaying and try to actually fool you the player rather than have your character resist a Con roll and then tell you "you're character believes this and let's the intruder in". By and large almost all Con rolls are players trying to Con NPC's and you should have a player who has face skills handle this. If you want to be both a face and a mage then you should really opt for a shamanic tradition which uses Cha as a drain stat.
So I would say that if you as the player aren't a gullible person, then I wouldn't worry about your character being gullible.
Then again, some GM's actually script they're players reactions to social interations by forcing them to obey the results of social rolls.
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I know that is how it would generally go. But the GMs that do use the dice rolls scare me. However if I did detail that my character was socially inept through his lack of trust until it was well proven to him could make it work, though I would have to roleplay distrust of everyone my character met (at least at first), that doesn't sound like a bad idea. I might just do that instead. Thanks for the pointers.
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Summoning is very good (and all the archetypes mages do have summoning). You don't need a lot of summoning skill though, because what limits your summoning is the drain you take more than anything else. With skill 1, a spec, a mentor spirit bonus, Magic 5, and a power focus 4, that's 14 dice. Spirits roll only Force, so you can easily summon a force 5 spirit, but you take Drain = 2x their hits, which can be large and spiky. Thus, large Summoning pool, not so much worth it. Summoning 1 and a specialization? Definitely worth it.
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Ok, thanks for the info, I missed the one point the combat burnout mage had, I am sorry about that, I cannot believe I missed that. Though still, even my original setup has 2 points in summoning, and this newer one has three. I am going to go with what you've written down and take a fire specialization. But how much binding should I take? I am certain not all of the mage archetypes have this, and I don't think binding is necessary, though without much actual gameplay experience I figure I should ask. What is your opinion? Binding or no binding, and if I do take it, how much? Gonna edit the changes in now.
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Remember that the availability of a power focus makes it so that you can only have a max rating 2 power focus at CC.
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That's why you want Restricted Gear inca1980. It pays off in the long run too, because the cost to bond a power focus is so high in karma versus bp.
Binding is totally useful - none of the archetypes have it because of the "widget factor." The main drawback is cost. If you are interested in binding, the Invoking metamagic is extremely good. Because the damage is so spiky, I don't really recommend trying to bind anything above your Magic score, unless you have Edge to spend rerolling drain soak. A force 7 spirit rolls 14 dice then you take double the hits in physical drain, so it averages 9.66P and it can easily get a luck roll and kill you. A force 6 spirit does only a bit less, but it's stun so you are much safer. Based on that, if you want to bind, you should aim to be able to reliably get at least one hit on binding a spirit with Force = Magic, since if you fail to get any hits you lose the binding materials and get nothing. I would thus aim for about 16-17 dice as your target with Binding. With Magic 6, a F4 power focus, a specialization, and a mentor spirit bonus, that's 2-3 binding.
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That's good to know, though I don't think I'm that interested in binding. I can see the usefulness of it, but I don't think it fits the character to much. Also, which book is the restricted item quality from? My guess is the runners companion, but I wanna be sure.
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Yes, Runner's Companion.
Because Binding doesn't get too much better with higher skill (it, like Summoning, is more about drain resist than dice pool), you can pick it up later with karma. It's also not a bad idea to do that since you probably have things to do with money for a while.
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Thanks for the quick response, there is just one more thing bothering me however. That is whether I bring Focused Concentration down to rank 1 in return for restricted items. I can see the benefit but on the other hand I can get a power focus later, whereas as far as I know, I cannot get rank 2 Focused Consentration, which is one more valuable point of drain resistance. Any thoughts on this?
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You don't want to bring Focused Concentration down for Restricted Gear, you want to bring it down for Mentor Spirit, which is dramatically better and half the price. At that point you might as well get restricted gear, because it is a huge upfront power boost.
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Thanks again for all the help. That makes so much sense, the sun mentor also fits perfectly with this unlucky pyromaniac of a combat mage. Thanks again I am so grateful for all the help. I just edited in the changes.
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One last suggestion - did you want Hermetic, in particular, or just not Shaman? There are a bunch more traditions in Street Magic and a Charisma-based tradition would make this character significantly better. Black Magic in particular is basically the goth version of Hermetic, but is Charisma-based.
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I haven't read street magic, so I am not 100%. I guess I just like the idea of magic being like science in some way. Y'know, it has certain rules, and is done by the caster mentally going through them in some way or other. With that being said I would be open to checking out that other tradition, it sounds cool. Though I do tend to play the int based mage (in D&D terms, I play a wizard, not sorcerer, warlock or druid), though I would most certainly be interested in checking this out. I remember reading about a variant of hermetic magic based around math and that sounded cool, or the chaos magic variation also sounds like it would fit. But still, until I manage to get my hands on a copy of street magic, I am not sure. Maybe I can find black magic on the internet though, because that does sound cool. I am gonna go search that. Thanks for the advice.
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If you are paying points for Elf you really should follow a tradition that uses Charisma as a drain stat, unless you have a major RP reason to do otherwise. If you don't like the idea of being a Shaman there are bunch of others to pick from in the Street Magic book. While I am totally willing to go away if you say "RP reasons, deal with it", but from a purely mechanical point of view you spent a bunch of points to be an Elf, and then you are not taking advantage of what an Elf is good at. namely agility and charisma. Your character doesn't have much of a need for agility, but Charisma really should be your drain stat if you are an Elf. Aboriginal, Aztech, Black Magic, Christian Theurgy, Norse, Path of the Wheel (an elf tradition) Shinto, and Voodoo all use Charisma for a drain stat. If you don't mind being *evil* black magic is basically hermetic magic that can throw a really good party.
As an alternative, if you keep Logic as a drain stat consider picking up a bit of augmentation. By loosing a point of magic to some implants you can get 'ware that adds directly to your logic. You give up one dice on the cast checks but gain two on the drain. Logic is the only drain stat that can by easily, cheaply, and directly bonused with 'wear. If you go this route, I would suggest, dropping your magic to 5 (no point paying for a six to just hand it back in cyberware) and then loose one point to make it a 4. Pick up a power focus. You can get a Force 2 without a restricted gear quality, and a Force 4 with one (although the latter is a big investment in built points at creation, but the big nuyen cost and high availability rating might make it difficult to get one later during play. So its kind of bit the bullet now or maybe go without later.) At minimum I would suggest a Force 2 power focus. Its two extra dice for almost everything you use your Magic for and you should be able to find room in the budget for it.
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Thanks for the tips. The reason I chose elf was basically RP because I liked hermetic magic A LOT more than I liked shamanic. But again, I would need to read the black magic fluff text, which I don't have as of the moment. Though this black magic sounds highly intriguing from what I've heard of it so far, and I love being evil, I am a pyromaniacal shadowrunner after all. Do you know where I could maybe find some of the black magic flavor text before I buy street magic?
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It's probably not kosher to post the whole tradition, but the "Concept" part should be fine.
"Concept: A black magician’s ultimate focus is a quest for personal power, regardless of whether this comes from mastery of the dark arts, secular powerbrokering, or pacts with the dark
powers from beyond the mortal realm."
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Of course I wasn't expecting the whole tradition, the concept helped a lot, thank you. But here is what I am curious about, how does a black magician actually use his magic? Does he do it through arcane signs and gestures that force his will upon the world? Does he get the powers from pacts with spirits or from connection to nature or some sort of god? This is the part that really interests me, because how a character casts their spells reflects how they see the world. It's the main reason I chose hermetic magic over shamanic magic.
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Black Mages can do any of those; the idea seems to be "power is power, it doesn't matter where it comes from."
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That sounds great, though it seems more like it could be a variant of almost any tradition. Either way that is perfect and I am changing the original post to reflect that now. Thanks again, this is a huge help.
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UmaroVI is turning you over to the darkside
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No, the dark always wins, for three reasons. The first, is because they have UNLIMITED POWA!!! The second is because we have better cookies, and the third reason is that evil will always win, because good is dumb. I know it's lame, but I couldn't resist the chance for three in a row.
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Sorry for the double post. I just wanted to ask if anyone thought my spell list was bad. I have street magic and digital grimoire, and so far this seems to work out without too much trouble, but I was hoping I could get a second opinion, does anyone think it seems a little redundant? I am just wondering this because I don't want to screw over my fellow players when I start playing by having a crappy character, if I am gonna be a combat mage the least I could do is do it effectively. The reason I double posted was because I didn't think this required a whole new thread, but if I just edited the old post, no one would likely notice it. Thanks for any answers and sorry again about the double post.
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I do think you should fiddle with your spell list a bit. My suggestions are here: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6259.msg109291#msg109291
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Thanks, I should have re-read the thread, what you said there makes sense, though I am probably gonna keep the flame spells for my element just because my character and myself have minor pyromania. I figured it would be a good idea to have the pistols in case I needed something without drain, but I wasn't considering that a force 6 stunbolt would be very effective and only have 2 DV. Just made some edits to the char, removing pistols and the mana spells, adding sustaining foci for armor and increased reflexes, as well as gear BP to buy them.
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One note is that force rounds down for drain, so you usually want to cast at odd force, not even.
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I know it rounds down, but casting at seven would be overcasting (unless the magic from power foci make it so you can go longer without overcasting, but I don't think that's how it works, is it?). I figured that was for emergency situations, but I guess at this point it makes sense because my drain here is likely to be nothing anyway.
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One note is that force rounds down for drain, so you usually want to cast at odd force, not even.
Except that if you have an even "effective Magic rating" and cast at the next odd number over it, it may be the same DV but it suddenly becomes Phys instead of Stun.
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That's what I was thinking, but then I thought that if you're casting stunbolt 7 it still is only 2 DV, and with 12 drain resist that means that it will almost certainly be resisted. Hell, double it up and you have two force 7 stunbolts flying at the guy that only have 3 DV each, which is likely to be resisted, combine that with net hits and that is almost certain to take down almost anything instantly. Oh, any suggestion on whether I should take armor with a sustaining foci, or use that for something else? I could get four more spells if I dropped the foci and armor, though the three extra points of defence could come in handy.
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Combat Sense is generally a better buff spell to sustain on yourself than Armor. It doesn't make you glow (which is the biggest issue with Armor), also, extra defense is generally better than extra armor of the same value.
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While that makes sense, I must ask if glowing really is that big of an issue for a combat mage? I won't be sneaking often, and I can just turn it off if I really do need to not be shiny.
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Glowing is a problem because:
1. You might be mistaken for a Twilight Vampire, and thus shot on sight.
2. You'll be ID'd as a magician, and thus shot on sight.
:P
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Fair enough, I keep forgeting that "geek the mage" is the number one slogan of just about all security everywhere. Also, just out of curiosity, when would manabolt be more efficient than stunbolt? I mean, if I need to kill them I can just kill the knocked out and completely defenceless body. I just wanted to ask because I am almost certain I am missing something that allows someone to stay conscious after their stun track is filled.
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Stunbolt knocks them out. Not everyone is happy with that, and loves to feel the life essence die away as they hold their neck if a Darth Vader way. ;D
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So it really is just a matter of lethal vs non-lethal, fair enough. One more question, is focused concentration 1 even worth it? I could get 3 more spells plus 5k more nuyen with that...Oh wait, I think I just answered my own question, heh.
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FC is not really very good, no.
Manabolt is an extremely niche spell. The main time you would actually rather have manabolt than stunbolt is if you are facing someone with a Pain Editor.
In general, Mana* spells are a poor investment - take Power or Elemental spells instead.
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Thanks, I knew there was something that did that, good to know, now I just need to figure out what to get, maybe sound, you said that was great for disabling enemies didn't you? Also, do sound spells need to be made on their own? I see them used in the examples of making elemental spells, but I don't have arcana. If they do not need to be made, do you suggest that I only get soundwave and skip out on the single target because I have stunbolt?
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Yeah, single-target sonic is not really worth it, Stunbolt is generally better. Soundwave is comparable in value to Stunball.
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Thanks again, I thought that would be the case. But I can just start with soundwave right? I don't need arcana to make the spell?
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Right. The main things you need arcana for are Magic Tea Party, crafting Ally Spirit formulas, and joining magical groups.
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Thanks for the info, but now that I have 10BP left over, any ideas what I should do with it? I have a couple here.
Get Focused concentration
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Drop combat sense+focus for 12 more bp and get aptitude and max spellcasting, leaving 4BP
or
Drop contacts and get aptitude and max spellcasting (probably not the best idea)
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Get 3 more spells and add 1 to contact
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Get restricted gear again and drop combat sense+focus so I can have a rank 4 sustaining focus for Increase Reflexes so I can have max on that
or
Pick up sensei, a spell, and throw the last two points into contact
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I would recommend more Body. +1 Body gives you +3 dice to resist damage and that's good when people try to geek the mage.
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Yeah, agreed.
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Cool, that deals with that last 10 BP, thanks, it was bothering me what to do with it.
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Actually, what that puts his Body attribute at brings tears to the eye. No point in having a 4, but as a mage, he doesn't really need a 5, so going back down to 3 would be all around better for him.
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Actually, what that puts his Body attribute at brings tears to the eye. No point in having a 4, but as a mage, he doesn't really need a 5, so going back down to 3 would be all around better for him.
The extra box is nice and all, but it's really all about the armor. That said, I'll say 5 body is really good for pretty much any character.
I would drop that manipulation sustaining focus if you haven't (and it looks like you're just considering it). That saves 9 BP right there (30,000Y=6BP + 3 to bind for 9BP). After that, I'll take a point out of a contact and get Body 5. After some pretty princess dressup, you should have 13/11 armor and maybe more depending on if you want to use softweave or not.
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Both ideas are awesome, though if I was dropping the focus for combat sense I am gonna drop the spell as well, so that is 12BP, and if I drop one point off contacts or gear I can also grab a new spell. Though if I go the other way and have body at 3, what should I do with the other 10BP, just out of curiosity.
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Both ideas are awesome, though if I was dropping the focus for combat sense I am gonna drop the spell as well, so that is 12BP, and if I drop one point off contacts or gear I can also grab a new spell. Though if I go the other way and have body at 3, what should I do with the other 10BP, just out of curiosity.
Off the cuff, I'll say increase counterspelling to 4 and 2 utility spells. Heal, Increase Attribute, or Levitate are all good choices. Heal's use is obvious. Increase Attribute should be taken for an attribute someone else can use when you're not likely going to be making a bunch of rolls. For example, you can for instance buff a face's charisma when they're talking to the Johnson. Levitate's handy for hauling heavy stuff or when you really need to get up to a window.
Another option is to trade out Bad Luck for other complications and buy up edge. Dropping Magic to 5 for more edge is a good idea if you go this route.
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Raise Counterspelling to 4, get another 2 spells would be the alternative.
(Ninja'd by Tsuzua saying the same thing)
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So either drop combat sense+focus and go for 5 body (and one spell if I drop a contact or gear point) or 3 body and with 4 counterspelling and 2 more spells? Cool, thanks for that, those abilities make a lot of sense, I am probably gonna go for the 5 body because it seems to be the more recommended of the two, and drop a point from contacts and pick up heal or levitate. Also, how do you figure I have 13/11 armor Tsuzua? 5 body would mean 10 max on armor unless I should go over the encumbrance, or unless you use the custom fit optional rule.
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Form Fitting Body Armor is 6/2 but counts as only 3/1 for encumbrance, so it lets you in effect get 13/11 armor. You can also do a bit better by using Softweave (WAR!).
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Form fitting body armor? Where is that from? I can't find it in the core books, though maybe I just missed it.
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Form fitting body armor? Where is that from? I can't find it in the core books, though maybe I just missed it.
Arsenal
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Thanks, I checked there but the pdf made the bold come up weird so I just scanned right over it. Also, what would someone rank the negative quality compulsive (pyromania) as? I am thinking about replacing sensitive system with it, as pyromania fits the character better.
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Thanks, I checked there but the pdf made the bold come up weird so I just scanned right over it. Also, what would someone rank the negative quality compulsive (pyromania) as? I am thinking about replacing sensitive system with it, as pyromania fits the character better.
Yeah it's pretty easy to miss, but it's an important part of runner's armor.
As for pyromania, I would use the Poor Self Control: Compulsion quality from Runner's Companion. You have to make a Composure threshold 2 test to resist your urge. The price depends on how bad the compulsion. Obsessive cleaning is 5 points while hacking high security nodes is 15. I'll say 15 myself since setting big fires is usually a bad idea, but in some cases it might only be 10.
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Ya, I saw the compulsion flaw and said to myself PERFECT! Exactly what I need, and if it is 15 than it is even better.