Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: squee_nabob on <02-14-12/0901:58>
-
I was asked by a new player to give an example of how a technomancer hacks a node. I put together this example to follow RAW as closely as possible. Before I send it to them, I want to get it as correct as possible. To do this, I want feedback from the people on the forums.
This is not intended to make any statements about the rules, just an example of how to use the rules as written. If there are mistakes that need to be corrected, please give me the page numbers where I can look up the correct rules.
Matrix Hacking Example (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YZlJmdQt46YdzjL1ZEY3gqT9-JzYrSlZ8oeb0MTsglI/edit)
I want to credit Tsuzua and Umaro for helping to edit this example and for rules corrections.
-
Heya, just reading through. It's pretty good, but:
* you can't heal Fading with a Heal spell (just like Drain)
* If you're looking for a particular node, you only need 4 hits (rather than 15 to catalogue all hidden nodes within range)
I haven't gotten all the way through yet, but these are my initial thoughts. It's a good example, but quite lengthy!
-
Actually, halo, you can heal PHYSICAL drain/fading with a heal spell or first aid. It is Stun damage you can't heal.
-
Heya, just reading through. It's pretty good, but:
* you can't heal Fading with a Heal spell (just like Drain)
* If you're looking for a particular node, you only need 4 hits (rather than 15 to catalogue all hidden nodes within range)
I haven't gotten all the way through yet, but these are my initial thoughts. It's a good example, but quite lengthy!
Thank you for the compliment. It is quite lengthy because I wanted to cover all the bases.
As Mirikon pointed out, you can heal (physical) Fade with First Aid or Heal. Stun Fade damage can only be healed with First Aid.
To have a (4) threshold test, you need to "have a good guess of where the device should be (for example, if your commlink is not detecting a node for Mr. Johnson but you are pretty sure he has a PAN, or where you can see the security drone, but it is operating in Hidden mode)." (SR4A 230) In my example, they are not in the server room, just a hallway. Perhaps that should be more explicit.
-
Actually, halo, you can heal PHYSICAL drain/fading with a heal spell or first aid. It is Stun damage you can't heal.
I don't know about fading, but you can't magically heal drain, not even physical one. Else everyone would overcast and then just heal themselves afterwards..
-
The source of “you cannot magically heal Drain damage” is SR4A p253 “Note that sorcery cannot heal damage resulting from magical Drain.” No mention is given to Fading, which implies that you can magically heal damage resulting from Fading.
-
The source of “you cannot magically heal Drain damage” is SR4A p253 “Note that sorcery cannot heal damage resulting from magical Drain.” No mention is given to Fading, which implies that you can magically heal damage resulting from Fading.
Just wanted to add a quote from SR4A p178, chapter about drain, but yours is equally good. And yes, fading can be healed with magic.
-
And actually, unlike magical healing which doesn't work on either type of Drain, there is a Echo called De-Fragmentation (Unwired, pg. 145) that can be used to heal Matrix damage to his living persona, but not damage that was caused by Fading or Black IC only, giving more circumstantial evidence to the idea that magical healing does work on Fading.
-
IDN. I had this opened by one of GM`s Ive played with: Rerolling missess...
The rule says that:
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
It is possible to rule that you can reroll dices that did not scored the hits
But
also there is this interpretation that you can reroll all dices, in test that didnt scored hit
So if you did score some hits in the test, you can not reroll misess, but you can reroll whole dicepool in case that you get 0 hits on original roll.
What do you thing? Im not english native so maybe there is something Ive missed in the sentence....
-
IDN. I had this opened by one of GM`s Ive played with: Rerolling missess...
The rule says that:
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
It is possible to rule that you can reroll dices that did not scored the hits
But
also there is this interpretation that you can reroll all dices, in test that didnt scored hit
So if you did score some hits in the test, you can not reroll misess, but you can reroll whole dicepool in case that you get 0 hits on original roll.
What do you thing? Im not english native so maybe there is something Ive missed in the sentence....
I've always played it as you can reroll dices that did not scored the hits... but I could see the other interpretation... maybe...
-
No mention is given to Fading, which implies that you can magically heal damage resulting from Fading.
True enough, but pg. 243, SR4A, gives us "In game terms, Fading is very similar to the Drain that magicians suffer for their magical activities." I do realise that that's a bit flimsy, but I'm pretty sure it used to be in the FAQ, although it certainly isn't any more. Weird.
-
IDN. I had this opened by one of GM`s Ive played with: Rerolling missess...
The rule says that:
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
It is possible to rule that you can reroll dices that did not scored the hits
But
also there is this interpretation that you can reroll all dices, in test that didnt scored hit
So if you did score some hits in the test, you can not reroll misess, but you can reroll whole dicepool in case that you get 0 hits on original roll.
What do you thing? Im not english native so maybe there is something Ive missed in the sentence....
I've always played it as you can reroll dices that did not scored the hits... but I could see the other interpretation... maybe...
As did I, well this really puts me in doubts...it is more harsh, well on the other side it should be more fun if played this way. I would rule the second way in my games...at least untill I find it too harsh...
-
That question about edge actually comes up periodically. Apparently, the German printing has wording that (due to the less ambiguous nature of german grammar) makes it clear that you reroll all the dice that failed to score hits for a test, rather than all the dice on a test if that test scored no hits.
-
That question about edge actually comes up periodically. Apparently, the German printing has wording that (due to the less ambiguous nature of german grammar) makes it clear that you reroll all the dice that failed to score hits for a test, rather than all the dice on a test if that test scored no hits.
For clearing that up, I can probably forgive them the Nerf to bow damage.
-
Didnt read german version of rules, even if it would be much closer for me to get hardcopy :)
Well I see CGL is the cannon, and even german translation may be wrong, so IDN if I can take it as granted that this is what autor intended...
-
What do you thing? Im not english native so maybe there is something Ive missed in the sentence....
I agree it could be interpreted that way, but the prevailing opinion is that all failed dice are rerolled. Other people have already given the reasons for this, so I don’t wan to rehash their posts. I find the interpretation that the quote means “reroll all dice in a failed test” to not be as persuasive as “reroll all failed dice”. Other GMs may interpret or houserule otherwise, but I will go with the current popular interpretation until given a reason to change.
True enough, but pg. 243, SR4A, gives us "In game terms, Fading is very similar to the Drain that magicians suffer for their magical activities." I do realise that that's a bit flimsy, but I'm pretty sure it used to be in the FAQ, although it certainly isn't any more. Weird.
I agree this quote exists, although I find it unpersuasive as an argument that Fade cannot be magically healed. Instead of including that sentence claiming Fade is “very similar”, the authors could have included Fading in the sentence on 243 about Drain and magical healing. It would have been less words and have greater clarity. Otherwise the question is, “in what ways are they very similar”.
-
I always took the drain/fading similarity to mean just what it looks like. When Magicians cast spells, summon spirits, or do other such things, they take drain. When technomancers thread forms, compile sprites, or do other such things, they take fading. If the Force or Rating of what they're trying to do is less than or equal to their Magic or Resonance, the drain/fading is stun, and if it is greater, then it is physical. Both are resisted by a roll of two attributes, which change based on tradition/stream.
-
Note that wound modifiers or sustained spells have no effect on the characters dice pool for Drain Resistance Tests.
*MR Drain Resist: Willpower 5 + Intuition 5 + Sustaining Penalty -2 = 10 dice [4 hits]
You kinda mentioned the sustaining penalty, but didn't calculate it in.
Edit:
Also after threading stealth and exploit, you only apply a -2 modifier for hacking on the fly.
//The TS is 9/12 to an admin account, the Node is 3/11 to detecting the TS.
Firewall 5 + Admin = 11; Node achieved 4 hits
//The TS is 9/11 to an admin account, the Node is 4/11 to detecting the TS.
In the beginning you threaded stealth to 11. But for your stealth tests you use 12.
But the whole example reads very well and shows what can and should happen, nice!
-
You are right on the first one Lethe, but note that you don't take a penalty for sustaining a CF while using that CF. Hacking on the Fly uses Exploit, so you don't take a penalty for having Exploit threaded while doing that.
Source: 2nd paragraph under "threading" SR4A 240.
-
Also...Wound modifiers do not apply to any Resistance tests...and drain or fading resistance is such test, so the dicepool won`t be affected.
-
You are right on the first one Lethe, but note that you don't take a penalty for sustaining a CF while using that CF. Hacking on the Fly uses Exploit, so you don't take a penalty for having Exploit threaded while doing that.
Source: 2nd paragraph under "threading" SR4A 240.
Haha yes, that makes sense. Else threading a +1 would give you an actual disadvantage.
-
Thank you Lethe!
I have corrected the drain resist test. The firewall is 6 (from Unwired) so it should be Firewall 6 + Admin = 12. I corrected the node being 4/12.
Good catch on the Stealth 11, I have rerolled it all out again. There was no change but it’s important to check.
Also, I want to mention that sustaining penalties do apply to Fade Resist Tests, because under Fading, it does not mention that they do not. To clarify: Drain Resistance Tests mention that sustaining penalties do not apply, Fade Resistance Tests do not mention this, and thus should apply sustaining penalties.
I can hardly claim that Fade != Drain, and use Drain rules only when they are beneficial.
-
I dont talk about Drain resistance text. Im talking about:
WOUND MODIFIERS
As a character records damage on his Condition Monitor, he suffers
certain effects that simulate real-life injuries. For every 3 boxes of cu-mulative damage taken on a Condition Monitor track, the character
suffers a –1 wound modifier. These wound modifiers are cumulative,
so a character who has taken 6 boxes of Physical and 3 boxes of Stun
suffers a total –3 wound modifier.
Wound modifiers are dice pool modifiers that apply to nearly all
tests the injured character may attempt, except for resistance tests.
It doesnt specify any, so it is safe to assume that All resistence tests are not subject to this modifiers (Damage, Drain, Fading, Toxin, Viral...)
-
It doesnt specify any, so it is safe to assume that All resistence tests are not subject to this modifiers (Damage, Drain, Fading, Toxin, Viral...)
Yes, even when not explicitly stated somewhere else, i would assume the same.
-
I agree but wound penalties and sustaining penalties are not the same. I cannot find an instance where I apply wound penalties to a Resistance test. I do apply sustaining penalties to Fading Resistance Tests (for example Turn 11, pass 3 and Turn 14, pass 1)
-
AH! Sorry, my wrong...
Hell.
Right now Im trying to figure out where the shortcut happened :D
-
Turn 10, Pass 2, why is SK using First Aid on TS? 0 fade & 2 services from the sprite....Is this for the 1P fade taken Turn 3, Pass 3? Wouldn't that be only 1 complex action + 1 combat turn to heal?
TS is always compiling rating 7 Sprites. Sounds like RPG system abuse from where I jack in. Would you prefer a headache or bleeding out your ears? Gaming the system, check!, but bad role-play. Tsk. Bad player -- no karma! :)
GM Call: If the physical wounds aren't healed until the spell becomes permanent and a second spell is cast, is the drain per the total (so-far-unhealed) damage? The guy you're pointing that spell at has all that damage, so your spell is targeting all his current damage. Hard call, that. While you can only heal once per set of wounds, game balance might say you'd be chancing the extra drain anyway. Similar note: would TS get a wound penalty (I think he's got 5P damage all told before the 2 heal spells are completed) for those wounds during the spell's "duration"? After all, the healing ain't finished yet, chummers.
I forget where I read it (Now I'll have to find it again!) but Threading takes NO TIME. Found it -- it's the FAQ:
See http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/
Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that Complex Form?
Threading does not require an action; any Fading damage taken applies before the technomancer’s next action (or before they thread anything else). Threaded Complex Forms must be sustained, and the -2 dice pool modifier applies to all actions except those using the threaded complex form.
Backing this up is the fact that threading in Unwired & the SR4A never say that threading is an action. It's simply not on the lists. So your player is taking a whoooooole lotta extra time threading.... takes no time to whip up a complex form from the Resonance if you're riding the right stream. I guess they really want the technomancers to keep up with the rest of the group in the meat world. It does mean extra die rolls in a combat turn, but at least the technomancer can do something useful quickly -- like ejecting smartgun clips, causing goggle malfunctions, turning on the sprinklers only on THAT side of the room, etc. during battle.
-
Turn 10, Pass 2, why is SK using First Aid on TS? 0 fade & 2 services from the sprite....Is this for the 1P fade taken Turn 3, Pass 3? Wouldn't that be only 1 complex action + 1 combat turn to heal?
TS is always compiling rating 7 Sprites. Sounds like RPG system abuse from where I jack in. Would you prefer a headache or bleeding out your ears? Gaming the system, check!, but bad role-play. Tsk. Bad player -- no karma! :)
GM Call: If the physical wounds aren't healed until the spell becomes permanent and a second spell is cast, is the drain per the total (so-far-unhealed) damage? The guy you're pointing that spell at has all that damage, so your spell is targeting all his current damage. Hard call, that. While you can only heal once per set of wounds, game balance might say you'd be chancing the extra drain anyway. Similar note: would TS get a wound penalty (I think he's got 5P damage all told before the 2 heal spells are completed) for those wounds during the spell's "duration"? After all, the healing ain't finished yet, chummers.
I forget where I read it (Now I'll have to find it again!) but Threading takes NO TIME. Found it -- it's the FAQ:
See http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/
Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that Complex Form?
Threading does not require an action; any Fading damage taken applies before the technomancer’s next action (or before they thread anything else). Threaded Complex Forms must be sustained, and the -2 dice pool modifier applies to all actions except those using the threaded complex form.
Backing this up is the fact that threading in Unwired & the SR4A never say that threading is an action. It's simply not on the lists. So your player is taking a whoooooole lotta extra time threading.... takes no time to whip up a complex form from the Resonance if you're riding the right stream. I guess they really want the technomancers to keep up with the rest of the group in the meat world. It does mean extra die rolls in a combat turn, but at least the technomancer can do something useful quickly -- like ejecting smartgun clips, causing goggle malfunctions, turning on the sprinklers only on THAT side of the room, etc. during battle.
Threading is a free action as per the SR4A errata.
-
Turn 10, Pass 2, why is SK using First Aid on TS? 0 fade & 2 services from the sprite....Is this for the 1P fade taken Turn 3, Pass 3? Wouldn't that be only 1 complex action + 1 combat turn to heal?
It's for the 1P taken from Threading during that same pass.
TS is always compiling rating 7 Sprites. Sounds like RPG system abuse from where I jack in. Would you prefer a headache or bleeding out your ears? Gaming the system, check!, but bad role-play. Tsk. Bad player -- no karma! :)
I'd rather bleed out my ears if I have two medics standing by who can fix that quickly than have a headache that they can't fix. Pretending that characters have no idea how their own abilities work is poor roleplaying.
GM Call: If the physical wounds aren't healed until the spell becomes permanent and a second spell is cast, is the drain per the total (so-far-unhealed) damage? The guy you're pointing that spell at has all that damage, so your spell is targeting all his current damage. Hard call, that. While you can only heal once per set of wounds, game balance might say you'd be chancing the extra drain anyway. Similar note: would TS get a wound penalty (I think he's got 5P damage all told before the 2 heal spells are completed) for those wounds during the spell's "duration"? After all, the healing ain't finished yet, chummers.
Heal doesn't work like that. Heal removes the damage instantly, but if you stop sustaining it before it becomes permanent, the damage comes back.
Threading
Covered already.
-
Threading is a free action as per the SR4A errata.
Haven't found that errata, and don't know where to look for it. Would you mind supplying a link? Thanks!
-
http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SR4A_errata.pdf
-
http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SR4A_errata.pdf
Thanks!
-
(Typo: "*TS Opposed Stealth Check: Hacking 6 + Stealth 121 +" -- love that Stealth rating :) )
Check out when the sprite tells TS where the access log file is (Turn 14, Pass 1).
The sprite can spend a complex action (in the vicinity of a full second) completing something, followed by a free action telling TS about it. These actions cannot happen simultaneously, because the sprite gets the info, then conveys it. Fair enough, but TS also performs a free action and complex action in the same IP where at minimum his complex action is dependent on the information given by the sprite. So this IP takes approximately 2 seconds. [I would buy that the thread Edit can happen simultaneously with the sprite finishing up, before the sprite even sends the phrase.]
I don't see the same issue in Turn 7 pass 1 or Turn 9 passes 2-3 -- other opportunities for sprites to convey information and TS to act on the information. As a GM, Turn 14 IP1 makes me wonder whether your character time travels. :)
Oh, another thing I've been wondering about the first aid being done to the character mid matrix-activities. Would that serve as a distraction to the activities he is doing elsewheres? I mean, someone's patching him, poking him, asking him to open up and take a pill, putting bandages in his ears, whatever... Or are they at Star Trek meds and just hold a device up to his arm, spray some medicine through his skin, and he's better nearly-instantaneously? (this is NOT how a medkit is described! It's essentially a small autodoc.) And how is that character using the medkit? It gives the Rating 6 because it's actually giving instructions to the character administering first aid. Can you talk to it through a commlink? :) What's the ruling on field medicine, distractions & stealthiness?
I know the healing is just "touch & heal". But I'm sure the first aid is much more -- uh -- complicated.
-
On page 144 SRA, it explains that you Declare and Resolve actions of each character in initiative order. The Sprite has a higher initiative than the TS, so the sprite can declare and resolve it's actions, then the TS can declare and resolve his actions based on the result of the Sprite's actions.
It is not time travel, and it is how the game works, so that explains why in Turn 14, pass 1 the TS acts on the knowledge of the Sprites results.
I have changed the Turn 10 Stealth typo.
I have not found any distraction penalties for being First Aided. If you know of any, please point me to the page number. For a Hot Simming character, you are at a -6 modifier to notice meat world activities, so it would make sense that you don't even notice someone bandaging you and giving you injections.
-
A question about healing in this scenario. At Turn 2 Pass 2, it states that Heal, at Drain Value of "1" needs to be sustained for 4 turns, then the scenario layers on adjustments for excess "hits". But from my reading of "healing" and how "Duration Permanents" work, that "4 turns" base number should be a "2 turns" base number.
SR420th Page 203 "The time required to make a spell’s effects permanent is equal to twice the Drain Value in Combat Turns." And Heal is a "Duration: P".
So if the Drain Value for that "Heal" is "1", shouldn't the base number of Combat Turns for the spell to become permanent be "2" (before the excess hits and other modifiers com into play)?
-
Corrected, thank you!
-
for some reasons I opened this thread after a year.
isn't all those blackhammers and blackouts count to programs being run?
IMO, there should be at least 11 programs being run on that node. at least that is how I would calculate that. (they could be of course loaded only to avoid the performance drop, but you'r eclaiming them running)
secondary a question where is that rule on needing to score 24 hits to find access log?
-
for some reasons I opened this thread after a year.
isn't all those blackhammers and blackouts count to programs being run?
IMO, there should be at least 11 programs being run on that node. at least that is how I would calculate that. (they could be of course loaded only to avoid the performance drop, but you'r eclaiming them running)
secondary a question where is that rule on needing to score 24 hits to find access log?
Do keep in mind that Complex Forms don't count as programs for that purpose. That said, those would count against Processor Limit, which is System, or System*3 for a nexus - and I'm inclined to say it was a nexus in this example.
The Matrix Search Table has the threshold for searches, and because that system's Access Log is hidden the threshold is 24.
-
Turn 11 pass 1 and 2 Node is running Analyze programs, they should be limited to 5, but are used at their original rating of 6 for the rolls.
-
I only see technomancer or sprite CF's up to that point, which do not impact Response.
-
that's unrelated to load - it is related to the note 1 on page 1 - that the system of this node is 5 and thus limiting all programs on it.
-
Okay, that I missed.
-
I'll put this here in case anyelse is going to use that example:
The TS need to use Data Search to find the unprocessed information in the access-log in order to delete it.
Unwired pg.65:
...A good
hacker will always perform a Data Search through the file and then
an Edit to remove any trace of her presence...
Also, when changing from AR to VR at turn 2, you dont get extra passes for the turn. ("SWITCHING INITIATIVE", pg. 45 S20th)
As mentioned previously, there are more than 5 copies of program running: 3 Agents, encrypt, stealth, black hammer and blackout. I assume the brainmelters run as server-side so they count as one program each, but I'm pretty sure each of the agents must have independent copy (or you could just have 1000 agents running simultaneously) (Payload, pg. 234 S20th)
-
actually I think that performance wise they could have it as single programs. but the crashing the program would disarm all of the IC at once.
to the above the stealth is also in three copies. which gives agent + stealth + analyse + BH + BO 0 five programs per IC total 15 programs on IC alone, plus node's analyze, and encrypt (might be two if it maintain the connection encryption) for a total of 17. even with nexus *3, that would on system 5 drop the response by one. I'd add a standard set of programs for nexus users (this node isn't for security, it is for working - so there should be a server-side edit, browse, plus entire system construct. totaling to 20 programs load. if it is not a nexi it would drop to response 1 with that kind of load. (unless some of those are optimized that is, but they would be listed anyway, and make identifying of IC much more difficult)