Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: under_score on <02-26-12/2341:11>
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Howdy all. First, let me thank the lot of you for all the inspiration, advice, and clarification I've already seen. I've skimmed through (and read much of) the 22 pages of threads in this forum over the past week or so and found a lot of interesting and sage thoughts floating around. So, thanks.
I've been playing Shadowrun (only 4th edition) for about six years now and quite a bit of dnd 3.5 in that time as well (and a little bit here and there of other games, but to no great extent). About 3 years ago, I ran my first game, which was Shadowrun. If I recall accurately, it ran about 10 missions over about 15 sessions. Late last year I wrapped a very long Eberron game that saw the party from 3rd level up to the mid 20s (yes, it got a bit ridiculous). And now, I'm itching to start a new game of SR...I'll probably be hitting the first session in just over a week. Maybe two.
Feeling inspired by watching a lot of police procedurals and their ilk (most notably Castle, X-Files, and Angel -- also, don't tell me anything about Angel I'm only in the first season and avoiding spoilers) and having just reread Neuromancer and rewatched the Matrix, I'm set to run a crew of Lone Star detectives.
I'm only going to have four players (I may add a 5th later in the year) because I think shadowrun can get really bogged down with a lot of players, and this game especially would make sense with a smaller group. The action will be set in Seattle in mid-2070 in part because I don't have any of the newest books and because I like the tension of keeping the policing contract from KE, trying to hunt down the Mayan Cutter, and dealing with the gubernatorial race.
I've asked each of my players to come up with a character who is somehow knew to the Homicide Department of Lone Star in Seattle. They may have worked for LS in another city or in another department or they may be fresh out of LS's academy. I want them to be new in one way or another to give the campaign a nice feel of beginning. Since they aren't the cream of the street crop -- yet, anyway -- I've only given them 300 build points. I'm landing them with the SINner (not criminal), Day Job (at highest) and -- thanks to reading this thread (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5975.msg102517#msg102517) -- the Records on File (Lone Star) negative qualities with no bonus bp. I'm also giving them the following:
Standard Issue Gear:
-Survival Knife, SR4 305
-Extendable Baton, SR4 305
-Colt Manhunter, SR4 307 OR Ruger Thunderbolt (with laser sight, not smartgun system), Arsenal 24
-Spare clips and (regular or gel) ammo as needed.
-Armor Vest, SR4 315
-Consider yourself to have access to SIN and license verification systems at rating 4
Running a SIN for verification will take about 6 seconds (two combat turns from
the time you issued the request on your comm. Running a license (vehicle,
firearm, or other restricted item) will take several minutes.
-Camera, SR4 325
-Facial Recognition software, rating 3, Arsenal 61
-Forensics Tools Kit, Arsenal 62
-Handcuffs (metal restraints) 2x, SR4 326
-Plastic Restraints as needed, SR4 326
-Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1 (Patrol Car), SR4 341
-As a job benefit, you have a life-sign monitor worn over the heart. If your life-signs go terminal or critical, a Code 00 is automatically sent to Dispatch. You also, effectively, have a basic DogWagon contract (when off-duty) or Gold level contract (when on-duty).
-LS will also supply you with Jazz (SR 249) on a limited basis.
I've been working on a Guide to Policing the Seattle Shadows for them, especially since one of them is rather new to Shadowrun and two of them are entirely new to the game (but none of them are new to gaming in general).
If any of you have any thoughts or recommendations for any aspect of this campaign, I would definitely appreciate it. I think I'm most concerned with doing justice to the world of the game, especially as should differ from a usual Shadowrun game. I have a bunch of seed ideas for cases, but I wouldn't mind hearing any thoughts you have on those either.
I'm also trying to figure out what relationship Lone Star would have with other Seattle corps, especially the AAAs and whether or not they would be doing corpsec for any of them (relevant should questions of extradition come up). It seems from what I've read that most if not all AAA corps have their own entirely in-house security. Is that accurate?
I'm working on a karma rubric (I like to be prepared and fair as much as I can be) to use in the game. I'd like to give them 5-10 karma per case, depending on how they do. This is what I have so far and I would appreciate if you have any suggestions for this based on elements of the game that are likely to arise and courses of action from which they should be discouraged.
Karma to give out:
(+2) Solved the case – a case could be made in court against one or more suspects
(+1) Apprehended said suspect(s)
(+1) Foiled additional unrelated crime during the session
(+1) Optional player nominated MVP
(+1) Uncovered more of the mystery than was strictly necessary to get a conviction
(+1) Fulfilled any additional LSSS objectives
(+1) Gain a valuable contact?
(+1) Good PR and/or improved relations with a major political figure or megacorp
(-1) Bad PR and/or worsened relations with a major political figure or megacorp
(-1) Collateral Damage – innocents killed
(-1) Collateral Damage – major property damage
(-1) Grossly amoral behavior
Thanks for reading and I appreciate any feedback.
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Looks pretty good... though I'd treat the vital sign monitor as a Biomonitor mod installed in their Armor Vest. I'd also stat them up with standard "Police Grade" commlinks, for on-duty use only, with standard programs and an agent or two to take care of day to day computer stuff for them.
Also, glad to see someone making use of that old post I made. ;D
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I'd say ditch the idea of giving lower than base core book points. I don't see how anyone can enjoy playing a game where the characters are that low.
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300 build points is pathetic. It takes 160 BP to have normal human stats (a 3 in all 8 regular stats). Since you can only spend 1/2 your BP on attributes this means you need to give them at least 320 build points. Unless you intend for them to be less capable than commoners.
How are you going to pay the players? Magically active characters benefit moderately from nuYen and benefit HUGELY from karma. Mundane characters benefit HUGELY from nuYen and moderately from Karma.If your players are detectives on a [small] salary, they will either have to be SUPER-corrupt to be able to afford to get better 'ware, or all magically active characters, who only need to obsess over Karma.
As a rule of thumb, what we are taught by veteran players is that for every point of karma you award, you should pay out approx 2,500 nuYen. Some people feel the ration should be 1 Karma : 5,000 nuYen. Obviously it's not an exact science, but have to understand the consequences of tanking this ratio, or putting it through the roof.
How does their status as lawmen affect what weapons they are authorized to carry? For example, if they are going into a very dangerous neighborhood will they be issued rational gear by their superiors? IE stuff like Swat Armor and rifles?
Why on earth would they ever be issued gel rounds instead of SnS?
Why give them a choice between a Colt Manhunter [which is garbage] and a Ruger Thunderbolt [which is one of the best pistols]? Do you just want a chance to point and laugh at the players who haven't mastered the system yet and therefore made the wrong choice?
All Megacorps have extraterritoriality - they are best thought of not as commercial entities, but rather as sovereign nations - and Lonestar is not permitted to operate on their premises without that corps explicit permission. Shadowrunners often evade the law by fleeing from "country" to "country." Lonestar hates this, but is powerless to do anything about it. The Star can try to negotiate extradition, and if the Mega has no vested interest, it may choose to play ball and let the extradition go forth.
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300 build points is pathetic. It takes 160 BP to have normal human stats (a 3 in all 8 regular stats). Since you can only spend 1/2 your BP on attributes this means you need to give them at least 320 build points. Unless you intend for them to be less capable than commoners.
How are you going to pay the players? Magically active characters benefit moderately from nuYen and benefit HUGELY from karma. Mundane characters benefit HUGELY from nuYen and moderately from Karma.If your players are detectives on a [small] salary, they will either have to be SUPER-corrupt to be able to afford to get better 'ware, or all magically active characters, who only need to obsess over Karma.
As a rule of thumb, what we are taught by veteran players is that for every point of karma you award, you should pay out approx 2,500 nuYen. Some people feel the ration should be 1 Karma : 5,000 nuYen. Obviously it's not an exact science, but have to understand the consequences of tanking this ratio, or putting it through the roof.
How does their status as lawmen affect what weapons they are authorized to carry? For example, if they are going into a very dangerous neighborhood will they be issued rational gear by their superiors? IE stuff like Swat Armor and rifles?
Why on earth would they ever be issued gel rounds instead of SnS?
Why give them a choice between a Colt Manhunter [which is garbage] and a Ruger Thunderbolt [which is one of the best pistols]? Do you just want a chance to point and laugh at the players who haven't mastered the system yet and therefore made the wrong choice?
All Megacorps have extraterritoriality - they are best thought of not as commercial entities, but rather as sovereign nations - and Lonestar is not permitted to operate on their premises without that corps explicit permission. Shadowrunners often evade the law by fleeing from "country" to "country." Lonestar hates this, but is powerless to do anything about it. The Star can try to negotiate extradition, and if the Mega has no vested interest, it may choose to play ball and let the extradition go forth.
On the note of nuyen paid, my view is that each job should provide each character enough to pay for at least one month of a Middle lifestyle. Granted, this is based on the standard type of game.
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On the note of nuyen paid, my view is that each job should provide each character enough to pay for at least one month of a Middle lifestyle. Granted, this is based on the standard type of game.
If by job in a "standard type of game", you mean a Shadowrun, then I strenuously disagree. But that's not important.
What is important is that there be some kind of balance between the rate at which nuYen is paid out, and the rate at which Karma is paid out. Because depending on how skewed this ratio gets, some types of characters will essentially experience no growth, while others will rapidly achieve grand ultimate power.
If the OP intends to pay his players something like 3,000 a month as salary - and that is supposed to be their character's main source of remuneration, then anyone who is not a mage is super screwed. Now I personally play a Pixie Mystic Adapt and I'm happy as a lark about it. I LOVE Magicrun. So if that's how the OP want's to run it, then far be it from me to cast the first stone. I just think he should be upfront about it with his/her players.
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I'd also stat them up with standard "Police Grade" commlinks, for on-duty use only, with standard programs and an agent or two to take care of day to day computer stuff for them.
I originally had included some medium grade commlinks as well but wasn't sure if that made sense or not. At your recommendation, I think I will add that back in.
Also, glad to see someone making use of that old post I made. ;D
Of course. :)
300 build points is pathetic. It takes 160 BP to have normal human stats (a 3 in all 8 regular stats). Since you can only spend 1/2 your BP on attributes this means you need to give them at least 320 build points. Unless you intend for them to be less capable than commoners.
I spent a fair time debating between 300 and 350. Coming off an epic level dnd game and a short-lived superhero game after that, I really want to run something that at least starts at a gritty, dangerous street level. Yes, I know that I can make things plenty dangerous for my players by adequately pumping up the opposition and by implementing good tactics. But it also makes sense (to me, anyway) that entry level detectives would not be as individually powerful as mildly-seasoned shadowrunners (my understanding of the usual 400 bp). This game will also probably focus more on investigation, following leads, rp, etc than combat -- though I plan to have one or two combats per case (if even just a car chase or random crime in progress type thing).
As far as why 300 specifically? The Lone Star patrol squad in the regular 4th edition book works out to a little under 250 build points (not counting gear -- of which I am giving a hefty amount to they players for free). I figured 300 would be enough of a step up from that to represent detectives.
Your math does bring up a good point on attributes, however. I hadn't thought too much about the half bp limit. I will almost certainly lift that, as it would make sense that while they may not be as skilled or have as many contacts, they will have solid (though not superhuman) attributes.
I'll reconsider 300 vs 350 bp. Any other thoughts on that from folks?
How are you going to pay the players? Magically active characters benefit moderately from nuYen and benefit HUGELY from karma. Mundane characters benefit HUGELY from nuYen and moderately from Karma.If your players are detectives on a [small] salary, they will either have to be SUPER-corrupt to be able to afford to get better 'ware, or all magically active characters, who only need to obsess over Karma.
As a rule of thumb, what we are taught by veteran players is that for every point of karma you award, you should pay out approx 2,500 nuYen. Some people feel the ration should be 1 Karma : 5,000 nuYen. Obviously it's not an exact science, but have to understand the consequences of tanking this ratio, or putting it through the roof.
Well, for one thing, I figure that altered ratio will, in the short term, compensate for the lower amount of build points. I want them to have to struggle to make ends meet. They are moderately well employed people in division that already spends more than it makes. At the starting salary I'm giving them with day job (5k / month), that's enough for middle lifestyle right there (as good or better than we generally see cop characters get on the tele). When they start to break bigger cases, I'll probably give them a raise of some sort.
Since I don't expect any of them to play dedicated hackers (that isn't their job) or to have tons of 'ware (at least not yet), I think karma will be more immediately important to them.
But I do like that they'll be shorter on cash than they want to be. That should facilitate corruption (bribes, selling evidence on the black market, etc) when it becomes available and test the moral fiber of the characters.
I also expect to reward them with contacts (and favors) etc to keep things interesting. Also, with bigger cases, they may be rewarded be relevant clients directly.
How does their status as lawmen affect what weapons they are authorized to carry? For example, if they are going into a very dangerous neighborhood will they be issued rational gear by their superiors? IE stuff like Swat Armor and rifles?
I've been figuring they'd certainly be allowed to carry anything for which they have a legal license (and are welcome to carry things illegally if they can get away with it) in addition to their standard issue gear. They will be welcome to requisition special gear, but they aren't SWAT or a Fast Response Team. I was considering some manner of assault rifle being standard issue, but hadn't yet given it too much thought.
Why on earth would they ever be issued gel rounds instead of SnS?
I'm sorry, I don't know what SnS rounds are. Generally, I figured gel rounds would be useful for less lethal apprehension of targets.
Why give them a choice between a Colt Manhunter [which is garbage] and a Ruger Thunderbolt [which is one of the best pistols]? Do you just want a chance to point and laugh at the players who haven't mastered the system yet and therefore made the wrong choice?
The original reason for the choice was the Thunderbolt (which is a great weapon and was developed by and for LS) only operates in BF -- if I am mistaken that BF weapons can't also operate in SA, please let me know.
In reading through the 2nd edition Lone Star book, I did see that FRT troopers typically wield either a Manhunter or a Thunderbolt. I found that a pleasant happenstance. Though, in looking back at that right now, I see that squad patrols would definitely have combat shotguns and some heavy armor. I'll probably add something along those lines to the standard issue gear.
All Megacorps have extraterritoriality - they are best thought of not as commercial entities, but rather as sovereign nations - and Lonestar is not permitted to operate on their premises without that corps explicit permission. Shadowrunners often evade the law by fleeing from "country" to "country." Lonestar hates this, but is powerless to do anything about it. The Star can try to negotiate extradition, and if the Mega has no vested interest, it may choose to play ball and let the extradition go forth.
This much, at least, I knew. I'm just wondering if any of the megacorps contract LS for corpsec or otherwise have particularly good working relationships. I'm sure I could just decide that some do or that none do, but I'd like to keep things consistent with the game world.
On the note of nuyen paid, my view is that each job should provide each character enough to pay for at least one month of a Middle lifestyle. Granted, this is based on the standard type of game.
Well, I'm expecting I'll give them 3-4 cases a month (the rest of their paid time being paperwork and meetings and such like that). So, with their straight salary (not counting bribes, other corruption opportunities, rewards from big clients, etc), they'd be making 1/3 to 1/4 of that.
If the OP intends to pay his players something like 3,000 a month as salary - and that is supposed to be their character's main source of remuneration, then anyone who is not a mage is super screwed. Now I personally play a Pixie Mystic Adapt and I'm happy as a lark about it. I LOVE Magicrun. So if that's how the OP want's to run it, then far be it from me to cast the first stone. I just think he should be upfront about it with his/her players.
That is certainly my intent. Heck, if anything, I'll probably be giving them more than they're expecting since I haven't said anything about raises, bonuses, and secondary rewards. I figure that should make random extra monies (and bribes) that much more tantalizing.
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Another question I have for people: how do you suggest I handle the plethora of cameras and sensors throughout Seattle? I'm sure LS would have immediate access to any sensors owned by the city and that they would have their own network operating in public areas. I suppose for these things, I should mostly just provide the PCs with info that the first on the scene cops and forensics crews have discovered. Or should I make the PCs have to work for this evidence themselves? There would be plenty of digital eyes out there belonging to other corps and private individuals. Should I play this stuff up or let it ride more in the background? Should I let this be a regular source of leads or only occasionally? Thoughts?
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I'm sorry, I don't know what SnS rounds are. Generally, I figured gel rounds would be useful for less lethal apprehension of targets.
The original reason for the choice was the Thunderbolt (which is a great weapon and was developed by and for LS) only operates in BF -- if I am mistaken that BF weapons can't also operate in SA, please let me know.
SnS = Stick-and-Shock. Essentially replaces the gun's normal damage with a sticky-taser bullet that does 6S DV -Half AP, staged up normally by hits, regardless of what it's fired from. Far better than gel rounds for Less Lethal takedowns.
Also, the Thunderbolt does only fire in BF, however that isn't really a big issue, since it still uses the Pistol skill. The only downsides are the short "lifespan" of the clip, and the recoil on the second burst, which is only an issue if they fire it twice in one IP... and I might suggest allowing them to "requisition" something like a gas-vent accessory (only if they think to ask, of course) to neutralize that as well.
Another question I have for people: how do you suggest I handle the plethora of cameras and sensors throughout Seattle? I'm sure LS would have immediate access to any sensors owned by the city and that they would have their own network operating in public areas. I suppose for these things, I should mostly just provide the PCs with info that the first on the scene cops and forensics crews have discovered. Or should I make the PCs have to work for this evidence themselves? There would be plenty of digital eyes out there belonging to other corps and private individuals. Should I play this stuff up or let it ride more in the background? Should I let this be a regular source of leads or only occasionally? Thoughts?
I'd give them most information for free, after a suitable delay for the "Digital Forensics" department, or whatever you want to call it, to process the information. Consider this stuff your "Deus Ex Machina" for dropping hints in the players' laps, and use it however you want. Just remember, the more canny and streetwise the opposition, the more likely they are to erase the feeds, and the really good ones would plant false images to cover the gap.
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This probably doesn't matter in most cases, but Lone Star requires every employee to be proficient with a hand gun.
Re: Manhunter vs. Thunderbolt. The Thunderbolt gets its power from the fact that it is firing three rounds at once. Essentially burst fire. These are special rounds that are sequentially stacked caseless rounds. I know many of you want to just alphabet soup that ammo, but it really makes my brain hurt to think about what you're trying to do. So, for the vanilla manhunter vs. thunderbolt, the Thunderbolt wins hands down. But when you get into stock, easy access alternative ammo, the Manhunter outshines the Thunderbolt.
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SnS = Stick-and-Shock. Essentially replaces the gun's normal damage with a sticky-taser bullet that does 6S DV -Half AP, staged up normally by hits, regardless of what it's fired from. Far better than gel rounds for Less Lethal takedowns.
Also, the Thunderbolt does only fire in BF, however that isn't really a big issue, since it still uses the Pistol skill. The only downsides are the short "lifespan" of the clip, and the recoil on the second burst, which is only an issue if they fire it twice in one IP... and I might suggest allowing them to "requisition" something like a gas-vent accessory (only if they think to ask, of course) to neutralize that as well.
Ah, I see this ammo now. Clearly better, yes. But considering the cost difference, I figure LS would only supply gel rounds as a rule. Players would be more than welcome to buy these on their own or requisition them if they think they're going up against something particularly dangerous.
After they've been issued their guns, I'd have no problem with them seeking to modify them. I think I'll still give them the choice of the Manhunter though, just as a reasonable, if inferior, alternative.
I'd give them most information for free, after a suitable delay for the "Digital Forensics" department, or whatever you want to call it, to process the information. Consider this stuff your "Deus Ex Machina" for dropping hints in the players' laps, and use it however you want. Just remember, the more canny and streetwise the opposition, the more likely they are to erase the feeds, and the really good ones would plant false images to cover the gap.
Sounds sage to me. Since I won't be putting the PCs up against actual runners all the time (certainly not as they're still getting their feet wet), I'll try to have decent reasons/scenarios that keep these leads from being to solid every time. If someone is murdered in a bathroom, won't be a video of the event (just people going in and out). If someone is murdered by a drone or summoned spirit, you still need to figure out who was controlling it.
This probably doesn't matter in most cases, but Lone Star requires every employee to be proficient with a hand gun.
I basically told my characters that they ought to be proficient in pistols (and perhaps all firearms) for the logic of the campaign (though if anyone builds a mage with some combat spells, I would consider that an adequate alternative).
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Regarding the initial BP: the lower you put the bar, the more you encourage your characters to become one-dimensional since they'll tend to ditch everything secondary to their main area of focus. So you'll end up with a bunch of 1's in attributes and a handful of middle-to-high skills for each character, instead of something balanced. Of course, some people don't need any help to do it anyway, but that's a separate issue ;)
Personally, I'd give them 350 (given how much gear you already give them and the lessened need for contacts) but ask them to make starting cops and emphasize you don't want to see any combat monster or overpowered character. Be sure to reject the worst offenders with a 'flunked the physical' or 'got assigned straight to SWAT, nice NPC, please start again' if you need to drive the point home.
By the way, the Lone Star Police Squad Member in SR4A may come up at a measly 250 BP, but that's 200 BP of attributes and only the skills that are relevant when the average runner encounters him: 3 combat skills and perception. Realistically he's bound to have more skills (from the athletics group, the influence group, and pilot ground vehicle, for starters), they just didn't bother to flesh him out.
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Figure out what the bare minimums are for getting in (making it through police academy) that includes access to equipment, attributes and skills. Everyone starts with that, then give them additional build points on top of that.
In theory, someone could just BARELY make it in based solely on their contacts (daddy is the mayor or something).
Also figure out what is required for various ranks or jobs, like detective.
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I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind. Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case. And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.
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To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.
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To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.
Not necessary, as they don't have to buy all that. They receive the equipment to use during their duty shift (anything mentioned above and also things like the patrol car itself, one or two drones, maybe even a K-9 unit if a player wants tot do that), but they have to return it afterwards. So the players don't have to pay for it themselves. But they also don't own the equipment either.
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To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.
Not necessary, as they don't have to buy all that. They receive the equipment to use during their duty shift (anything mentioned above and also things like the patrol car itself, one or two drones, maybe even a K-9 unit if a player wants tot do that), but they have to return it afterwards. So the players don't have to pay for it themselves. But they also don't own the equipment either.
It takes being very, very good at a lot of skills to be a successful cop. That said, the 400 points could work, but it wouldn't be as skilled as I think a PC in a profession should be. The PCs should be special, a cut or twenty above the others in the same profession.
Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.
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For being a successful cop maybe, but it seems they are supposed to be average. So 1ish ranks at influence/athletics/driving and a little more at firearms/dodge/perception is good enough to start out with i guess. That's easily doable with 400BP, heck 350BP even. Especially if they don't need to spend too much on gear and contacts.
They might get some extra payment from LS for it though, if the implant makes them "better" in doing their job. Maybe not at first, but after it proves to be an advantage.
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The point build (I'd go with 350 personally) would seem about right for fresh-faced Academy graduates; capable physically (I'd let them, and strongly encourage them, to spend 200 BP on attributes) but lacking the street-smarts and experience of officers who have a few years in.
FYI, in our time period most specialized jobs (SWAT, Freeway Patrol, Detective Bureau, etc.) require some political pull within the department to obtain. That could indicate a contact in the upper echolons of Lone Star.
And the players should take a Knowledge Skill in report-writing; that's a critical cop skill.
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I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind. Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case. And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.
Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.
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I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind. Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case. And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.
Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.
That's a good point too. If there's a hacker-type character, perhaps have him issued with commlink and programs out of War!.
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Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle. That means pistols and shotguns. Assault rifles and SMGs only come out for mission specific SWAT operations. Those are kept under lock and key in the armory until needed.
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Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.
I assume they would get at least a Discount, as it does make them better in their job. And they might get their hands on things they otherwise might not, like F rated implants (although probably not at first). It's even possible (I don't know the corporate structure of Lone Star) that they have hospitals themselves where they can do the implants. Otherwise they might have agreements with other hospital providers.
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I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind. Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case. And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.
Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.
That's a good point too. If there's a hacker-type character, perhaps have him issued with commlink and programs out of War!.
Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle. That means pistols and shotguns. Assault rifles and SMGs only come out for mission specific SWAT operations. Those are kept under lock and key in the armory until needed.
So probably some really badass shotguns and a selection of slugs, regular flechette, and AP flichette for use as the situation requires?
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Re: Manhunter vs. Thunderbolt. The Thunderbolt gets its power from the fact that it is firing three rounds at once. Essentially burst fire. These are special rounds that are sequentially stacked caseless rounds. I know many of you want to just alphabet soup that ammo, but it really makes my brain hurt to think about what you're trying to do. So, for the vanilla manhunter vs. thunderbolt, the Thunderbolt wins hands down. But when you get into stock, easy access alternative ammo, the Manhunter outshines the Thunderbolt.
So this is totally wrong. I can only assume you are describing the YSK and not the Ruger Thunderbolt. Regardless of ammo available, the Thunderbolt is the better gun and the comparison is not even that close. By offering the players between a choice between one of the worst handguns (the manhunter), and one of the very best (the Thunderbolt), the OP is just giving poor optimizers some rope to hang themselves with. Why would a GM purposely do that except out of spite?
Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle.
Again this is totally wrong. Not all assault rifles have a F legality rating. Off the top of my head, both the AK-97 and the Colt M22A3 are only restricted. Furthermore every single SMG in the main rulebook has only an R-rating.
Also, the Thunderbolt does only fire in BF, however that isn't really a big issue, since it still uses the Pistol skill. The only downsides are the short "lifespan" of the clip, and the recoil on the second burst, which is only an issue if they fire it twice in one IP... and I might suggest allowing them to "requisition" something like a gas-vent accessory (only if they think to ask, of course) to neutralize that as well.
You can't add gas vents to pistols. This is mentioned in the description of the gas vent accessory in the main rulebook, and in Arsenal when describing the gas vent modification.
They could add a personalized grip and a folding stock at minimal extra cost (about 130 nuYen) to bring RC up to 4 (the Thunderbolt has 2 inherent RC).
Another question I have for people: how do you suggest I handle the plethora of cameras and sensors throughout Seattle? I'm sure LS would have immediate access to any sensors owned by the city and that they would have their own network operating in public areas. I suppose for these things, I should mostly just provide the PCs with info that the first on the scene cops and forensics crews have discovered. Or should I make the PCs have to work for this evidence themselves? There would be plenty of digital eyes out there belonging to other corps and private individuals. Should I play this stuff up or let it ride more in the background? Should I let this be a regular source of leads or only occasionally? Thoughts?
The Runners Companion p.23 has useful things to say on the topic of public surveillance which suggests they should only provide intermittent leads to the cops. These systems face 3 [EDIT]] 4 critical obstacles:
(1) Content-recognition problem: The such a ridiculous amount of data recorded by all forms of surveillance every single second that filtering it all to find leads is actually a mammoth task that is not going to often provide a just-in-time solution.
(2) Data balkanziation: Seattle is a patchwork of jurisdictions, and information does not easily or readily flow between them. The bureaucratic wrangling can delay an investigation by hours or days, assuming Lonestar can even get the other party to play ball.
(3) Data completeness: All personal info is linked to a SIN. For SINless operatives, there may be a lot of info out there on such an individual, but it remains distributed over many identities and unlinked databases rather than seamlessly flowing into a single file folder for a particular suspect.
(4) Data veracity: It's easy to falsify bits and pieces of the data to create a misleading profile or false trails. Rewriting all the info linked to a SIN is like virtually impossible, but adding inaccuracies is very doable.
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This game sounds fun and I think I would enjoy it. Getting back to the original question/poll of build points, as a player I would prefer having the full 400 BP but with some guidelines about how it can be spent. For example, you could require that the players spend 50 BP on contacts and knowledge skills. These are often neglected in a regular game but would especially helpful for detectives trying to solve a case. You could cap active skills at rating 3 ("Professional", by the book's description) to encourage skill diversification. One of my favorite characters is one I created for a game where Magic and Resources were capped at a low level, forcing me to spend my points elsewhere. The result was a well-rounded character that had a specialty but also a lot of fun secondary skills that don't always get a lot of game time since they're not part of an optimal build for a shadowrunner.
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So this is totally wrong.
Agreed, the thunderbolt is simply a burst-fire pistol, nothing more. It was special in 2055, when it was still a "Lone Star only" weapon and possesion of one would mark you as a cop killer, but in 2070? Just another gun...
Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle.
Again this is totally wrong. Not all assault rifles have a F legality rating.
I doubt that the argument can be made by the legality of the gun, as legality only describes if something may be purchased by a private person (s. SR4A, p. 313). it says nothing about the availablity for police, army, corp security, etc.
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If you're allowed to get permits for automatic weapons in 4th edition then that is a dramatic change from prior editions.
A police officer does not want flechette ammo, there is too much chance for collateral damage which could endanger the law enforcement contract. You've got slugs for stopping power and then gel/beanbags for crowd control. You'll also have door buster ammo for entry. If someone has too much armor, you call in SWAT. They will bring in the big guns and fancy ammo. Those guns and ammo will be checked out and checked back in at the end of that mission. They do not 'Carry' those weapons around.
This is the Thunderbolt description that I'm talking about: (3rd ed.)
The chosen weapon of Lonestar, the Ruger Thunderbolt fires only in burst-fire mode (damage code already adjusted) due to a unique type of ammunition. Three bullets are lined up in each caseless cartridge and are ignited electrically in sequence. Recoil is negated because the last of the three leaves the barrel before the recoil of the first affects the gun. The force of three bullets leaving the barrel at once doubles the recoil of the second burst however. (+4 recoil penalty). The Thunderbolt comes with either an underbarrel laser sight (+250n¥) or an internal smartlink (+400n¥).
The Manhunter from 3rd ed. is almost identical to the Predator, only it is cheaper and has an integral laser sight.
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If you're allowed to get permits for automatic weapons in 4th edition then that is a dramatic change from prior editions.
"You", as in "private citizen" can not get a permit for automatic weapons, no. "You", as in "police officer on duty", on the other hand, can. And I doubt that the legality code in SR3 was used to determine if the cops may use a weapon - it's just for the citizens, not the police.
A police officer does not want flechette ammo, there is too much chance for collateral damage which could endanger the law enforcement contract. You've got slugs for stopping power and then gel/beanbags for crowd control. You'll also have door buster ammo for entry. If someone has too much armor, you call in SWAT. They will bring in the big guns and fancy ammo. Those guns and ammo will be checked out and checked back in at the end of that mission. They do not 'Carry' those weapons around.
I did not say that every cop has a whole arsenal in his trunk, just that he may legally use much more weapons than a normal citizen. And in Shadowrun I would assume that most cop cars come with automatic rifles in the trunk, as the world has become a lot more dangerous.
This is the Thunderbolt description that I'm talking about: (3rd ed.)
Oh, you're right. Seems like that was retconned a little bit.
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A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.
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3rd Edition had Security and Law Enforcement grade legal codes as well as Military grade legal codes. But none of them allowed permits for 'carrying' those weapons. It was 'illegal' to carry them, but in certain cases (missions) they would not enforce that law.
What I'm saying is that if one of the players 'owned' an SMG, it would be illegal. But if they get issued an SMG as part of a specific operation (like responding to a call in the Barrens), the ban on automatic weapons would not be enforced. So, yes, be proficient in their use, but don't have it listed as standard equipment.
Ditto what Bruce said
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"You", as in "private citizen" can not get a permit for automatic weapons, no. "You", as in "police officer on duty", on the other hand, can. And I doubt that the legality code in SR3 was used to determine if the cops may use a weapon - it's just for the citizens, not the police.
Legality codes in SR3 indicated what grade of equipment the gear was as well as whether permits existed and how much law enforcement usually cared about the item in question. For example, a knife was was a legality of 8P-E. The 8 meant that no one really gave a damn (high was better) while the E classified it as a pistol, and the P mean it could have a permit. Meanwhile a sniper rifle was 2-K, meaning no permits are available, every officer is going to throw a fit, and it's classified as K meaning Military Weaponry. The classification also gave a list of penalties and jail time for everything from transporting illegal items to using them.
This meant that anything with a P could be owned with a permit. Anything listed as Legal, was fine. Anything without P couldn't be legally owned privately. That said, the classifications let you know fairly well who would be able have such equipment issued, so it really did determine what cops would be able to use.
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Anything without P couldn't be legally owned privately. That said, the classifications let you know fairly well who would be able have such equipment issued, so it really did determine what cops would be able to use.
Somehow I don't get the last sentence, sorry. Yes, "P" told you, if you (the player, a normal citizen) had a chance of ever owning one privately and legally. But that doesn't say anything about cops. So how can this determine what cops would be able to use? I have a hard time imagining SWAT teams without assault and sniper rifles, for example.
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Be sure to reject the worst offenders with a 'flunked the physical' or 'got assigned straight to SWAT, nice NPC, please start again' if you need to drive the point home.
Haha. Nicely said. ;D
To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.
I would agree if I were expecting the 4 of them to apprehend 5 person shadowrunner teams hiding out deep in Cutter territory. For the most part, they'll be trying to solve crimes, not stop gang wars. Sure, they'll be in dangerous situations (following up leads at gang haunts, apprehending 1 or 2 dangerous NPCs on the lam, dealing with a sudden attack from a single summoned spirit), but they won't be asked to infiltrate MCT, hack the system, take out magical surveillance, take down the heavily armed corpsec, and steal the paydata. That said, I am reconsidering boosting up the build point total (thus the poll at the top and general question on this point), but I won't be starting over 400 for this game.
The PCs should be special, a cut or twenty above the others in the same profession.
I want them to get to this point, yes. To start with, I want some NPC detectives to look down their noses at some of the fresh meat, some other officers to really get under the PCs skins so that when they break a big case they can rub it in their rivals' faces. (I do also plan to give them some straight allies on the force as well, especially as time goes on).
Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.
Actually, from reading the Lone Star book, it sounds like officers often end up with second hand cyberware (pulled from various apprehended perps) that was "supposed" to get destroyed. Sometimes if officers go under the knife after a particularly bad run-in with some criminal types, they may wake up with 'ware they weren't expecting and may not even want (thanks to the fine print in their contracts). Sort of a robocop situation but not quite so extreme.
I'd let them, and strongly encourage them, to spend 200 BP on attributes
That is definitely my plan now that it's been brought up. :)
The Runners Companion p.23 has useful things to say on the topic of public surveillance which suggests they should only provide intermittent leads to the cops. These systems face 3 critical obstacles:
Ooh, thanks for the tip. I will check that out after work tonight or tomorrow. Those obstacles seem very reasonable to me -- should provide some interesting challenges.
I would prefer having the full 400 BP but with some guidelines about how it can be spent. For example, you could require that the players spend 50 BP on contacts and knowledge skills. These are often neglected in a regular game but would especially helpful for detectives trying to solve a case. You could cap active skills at rating 3 ("Professional", by the book's description) to encourage skill diversification.
Mmm...I like that first idea especially, forcing them to branch out a bit. Also, for any of them who may have built their characters at 300 before I decide to boost it, that would give an easy way to upgrade without drastically changing the character. I probably won't cap skill level more than normal though. If they want to be really good at a thing or two, I don't want to hold them back on that.
A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.
Totally. I don't expect this to be the norm, but I love the idea of them having to gear up extra hard to extract a suspect from a gang-infested, ghoul-ridden portion of the Puyallup Barrens and they can't just bring SWAT with them because of departmental politics. And if it's a big ticket case, their Lieutenant might speed through the paperwork to get them the biggest guns available.
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As for the legality of SMGs and such. It seems pretty clear to me that most of those in the 4th ed core book are just Restricted. Being the people they are, they should have no difficulty getting those guns and holding legit licenses for them. Some Forbidden items will also be available via Lone Star (on a requisition basis only). This makes sense to me since both of the Sniper Rifles in the book are rated F. So the PCs wouldn't be able to (legally) own one, but they could requisition one for specific use. Granted, they probably wouldn't. They'd probably just call in SWAT backup for that kind of thing.
Thanks again for all the advice and feedback so far.
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A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.
This is one thing they would definately have to do, fill in reports with their supervisors (not only about what they did with the guns, but what they did in general). And be on their case if they don't. So the bureaucracy skill is absolutely necessary.
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Somehow I don't get the last sentence, sorry. Yes, "P" told you, if you (the player, a normal citizen) had a chance of ever owning one privately and legally. But that doesn't say anything about cops. So how can this determine what cops would be able to use? I have a hard time imagining SWAT teams without assault and sniper rifles, for example.
There were three parts:
Number (ex. 5P-E) that told how much people care.
Permit (ex. 5P-E) that told whether it could be legally permitted by it's presence in the legality code.
Classification (ex. 5P-E) that told how illegal the item was, and also who would be allowed to carry such equipment.
Assault Rifles were classified as G (Automatic Weapons). Typical security forces could be issued them (keep in mind that Lone Star is considered a Security Force that operates as law enforcement) with no problem. Sniper rifles were classified as K (Military Weapons), most SWAT teams don't actually use sniper rifles. Most SWAT teams actually use more common hunting style rifles with high power optics (in fact you can buy one of the most commonly used ones in most Wal-marts).
Things were much harder to get in SR3 due to the legality issues. For example, APDS was considered an Military grade ammunition, you didn't often see people running around with five or six clips of it for every single weapon. It was considerably more powerful mechanically though as well.
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How likely, for liability and publicity reasons, would it be for the special issued weapons to have Biometric safeties and maybe even gun cameras?
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I would say very likely to be honest. Most of the weapons would probably be smartgun equipped (which comes with a camera). Afterall, it's not expensive on pistols and only 400 bucks for an external version on larger weapons, and a set of patrol glasses with smartlink and image link on them only runs about 625 also.
I see almost all agencies using biometric locks on their weapons, especially anything capable of autofire or using extremely devastating rounds.
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Agreed. Smartgun is pretty cheap and makes shooting much safer. Wasn't there a system preventing you from shooting at your friends? Perhaps a little bit dangerous, if hacked, but otherwise viable for cops...
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Wasn't there a system preventing you from shooting at your friends?
Ya, it's called the Police Academy. :)
Seriously, the decision to shoot or not shoot is the cop's, not some fancy gizmo. The camera and biometric safety makes sure that the gun only fires when the cop decides. Ultimately, if someone or something is shot with his (specially issued) gun, it is undeniably provable that he meant to shoot it.
"I thought he had a gun."
"Well, let's check the gun camera footage..."
"The perp got ahold of my gun."
"Hmm... Biometrics say there was a good connection to your link when it discharged..."
"A wizard made me do it."
"..."
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To be fair, smartgun links let you not shoot bystanders, which can arguably be more important than hitting perps.
One of the nightmares of current LEOs is facing down an armed suspect with a crowd of gawkers in the background. A smartgun link will help in dealing with that situation.
It also lets the upper echelons deny responsibility and place the blame on the officers more easily. "They had training and the best equipment we could provide; it's not our fault that these rogue officers failed to follow procedures and used an unlinked Panther Cannon on that troll..."
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To be fair, smartgun links let you not shoot bystanders, which can arguably be more important than hitting perps.
One of the nightmares of current LEOs is facing down an armed suspect with a crowd of gawkers in the background. A smartgun link will help in dealing with that situation.
It also lets the upper echelons deny responsibility and place the blame on the officers more easily. "They had training and the best equipment we could provide; it's not our fault that these rogue officers failed to follow procedures and used an unlinked Panther Cannon on that troll..."
That, Bruce, would be "rogue officers", since Panthers come with a Smartgun System stock. I get your point, though.
Also, as far as officer safety goes, there's the Mark 74 Smartlink, which is much pricier but works with TacNet software so you don't shoot anyone on the same TacNet. Probably mostly used by SWAT types, though.
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Actually, smartguns do not prevent the problem of civilian casualties. They just make it easier to get on target, reducing the chance of people getting caught in the crossfire. And, smartlinked or not, a shotgun firing shot, or any weapon doing a wide burst or suppressing fire is very likely to get unintended targets in the crossfire.
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Actually, smartguns do not prevent the problem of civilian casualties.
I was just referring to the fact that it was an unlinked Panther. The officers in question had to actively disable (or at least ignore) an available aiming assist before taking the shot, which is negligence on their part.
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It would certainly be wise for them to be outfitted with smartgun systems, smartlinks, the advanced safety system (Arsenal), and Safe Target System (also Arsenal), but considering the cost of each of these, compared with the cost of the guns their being issued, I don't think the Star is going to shell out for it. I think this is the kind of budget tightening that's giving them a negative image in certain quarters and, in canon, will prevent them from winning the city contract in 2072. If I were setting the game two years later and with Knight Errant, then I would totally issue them this gear. In the meantime, it's their job to make Lone Star look good even if their less than complete gear isn't helping any.
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Well a biometric safety modded at the factory would only cost about 100¥ and that's retail price. Considering how many Lone Star would order per precinct, their cost would likely be much, much lower.
The smartgun system would cost 300¥ for the manhunter or 400 for the thunderbolt. It seems like a lot, but considering the training and other equipment the officer is trusted with, it's just a drop in the bucket in the end.
Lone Star losing the Seattle contract wasn't just from tightening. They had the entire Tempo crime wave scraped off on their shoulders (which could have largely been prevented if not for the legally different definitions of traditional drugs and bio-engineered awakened drugs) even though they legally couldn't do anything about it until the late game. There was also Brackhaven to think about, who saw Knight Errant as a more profitable company to contract to since they are a subsidiary of a AAA corp capable of taking on nations if need be.
I would recommend also tossing in some Weapon Watcher software. It's a bit pricey, but it fits if you're already giving the Facial Recognition software.
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Well a biometric safety modded at the factory would only cost about 100¥ and that's retail price. Considering how many Lone Star would order per precinct, their cost would likely be much, much lower.
It wouldn't surprise me if they actually made the weapons themselves (own design or under licence) instead of buying them. They are big enough to be able to do so.
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As has already been pointed out, actual corporations are probably going to get a good deal on this stuff, not pay full price. Also? Judging from the cops I know, just making the stuff available to them and offering a reasonable discount/payment plan, you'd get guys lining up around the block to get some of this stuff. Lone Star wouldn't have to pay for the smartlink, they'd just have to let their cops buy 'em, and they'd see quite a few beat cops all geared up and ready to rock.
Especially using the SR4 rules, where so much of this hardware is readily available that's just as good as the cybernetic versions. If you're already wearing a helmet, why not get a smartlink and low-light on it, so you can keep up with those tusker punks in the dark? If you're already getting assigned body armor, who wouldn't get a BioMonitor upgrade (for just ten nuyen a month, automatically deducted from your paycheck for your convenience, partially offset by a discount on your company insurance policy!)?
And, the way the safe target and similar stuff works? You can bet there's going to be some peer pressure from the other guys on your shift, for everyone to "buy in" and gear up. You can either shell out a nuyen a day to your payment plan and get that biometic safety and safe target system...or you can get bitched at about it all shift long by your partner, your shift sergeant, and everyone else you work with.
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Actually, Smartlink (tm) is Ares property so it is unlikely that Ares would offer a big discount to a competing security company when they have both Knight Errant as well as Hard Corps.
My suggestions for the biometrics and cameras only applied to the special weapons, not so much the personal side arms. I would envision the Thunderbolts being issued with smartlinks and the manhunters with the laser sight being used by the non-cybered cops.
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I would imagine that any relatively inexpensive gear that could possibly save company money and avoid liability would be available/mandatory, whereas gear that merely saved employee lives would be sold to officers.
Example - Lone Star charges recruits for their uniforms, armor, any bio-monitoring, biometrics on guns, etc. (In real life today, officers only get x amount for uniforms, and anything else is out of pocket.) But a smartlink and low-light could avoid a costly lawsuit, so it's standard on all Lone Star equipment.
Obviously, what is 'necessary' for the performance of the contract will vary not only from city to city, but possibly from fiscal year. Uniforms are 2 free a year in some places, and merely reduced cost to officers in others. A run could be built around breaking into Lone Star local administrative HQ and modifying contractual arrangements for the benefit of some suppliers. ("What do you mean, I have to buy a replacement uniform!? This one got torn up by a trog with a combat axe playing "Neil the Orc Barbarian'! "Sorry sir; this year, all officers must buy any replacement gear out of pocket. Corporate decision. Oh, and your bullet allotment has been cut back as well.")
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To clarify, my thoughts in this thread apply pretty distinctly to a Lone Star (or Knight Errant, or Wolverine, or whatever) themed game. When in doubt, I try to shine the spotlight on the PCs. In a cop game, that means I put a little more thought into how the cops might be equipped. In a criminal game, it means the average cop is probably going to be under-equipped, because Fuck The Police (tm), or whatever. I wouldn't make all these other goodies standard-issue for an average Shadowrun campaign...but in a cop game, stopping and thinking about what kind of gear makes sense for them, and how to still make it economically feasible, is a fun way to kill time.
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Well a biometric safety modded at the factory would only cost about 100¥ and that's retail price.
Pardon my ignorance, but is this in SR4 or Arsenal or something else? I'm missing it somehow.
They had the entire Tempo crime wave scraped off on their shoulders (which could have largely been prevented if not for the legally different definitions of traditional drugs and bio-engineered awakened drugs) even though they legally couldn't do anything about it until the late game. There was also Brackhaven to think about, who saw Knight Errant as a more profitable company to contract to since they are a subsidiary of a AAA corp capable of taking on nations if need be.
I know very little of these things and would love to know more. Is this in that Seattle:2072 book I haven't read? My most up to date reading is Runner Havens.
I would recommend also tossing in some Weapon Watcher software. It's a bit pricey, but it fits if you're already giving the Facial Recognition software.
Interesting. I may well add this to the list.
Judging from the cops I know, just making the stuff available to them and offering a reasonable discount/payment plan, you'd get guys lining up around the block to get some of this stuff. Lone Star wouldn't have to pay for the smartlink, they'd just have to let their cops buy 'em, and they'd see quite a few beat cops all geared up and ready to rock.
Hmm...yes. I think I will encourage them to pay for upgrades to their weapons and other gear if they would like to.
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The most detailed breakdown of the Tempo scare was in Ghost Cartels, but I know Vice references it also. I don't really know if Seattle 2072 covers it or not. The Brackhaven issues are in 2072, but it's all mostly just seriously hinted at.
Biometric Safety is part of the basic Advanced Safety mod in Arsenal.
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I'm gearing up to do a Lone Star campaign, too. My guys are going to be more into magical crime, and I'm working of case file to let them pick and choose which they want to investigate.
As for money, I'm giving them enough for a Middle lifestyle, plus some to save up. Being legit, they can requisition goods. There is a ton of paperwork, and it's all expected to be used in the line of duty, of course.
I also have tinkered an old idea of Cash for Karma (or vice versa). I'm letting 1 Karma equal 2,000 (if I recall right). It represents overtime or some fortunate windfall that comes their way.
Last thing I'd like to add, concerning all the talk of non-lethal takedown and what not. Police today are armed with hollow point rounds. True, there are tasers, beanbag rounds, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the cops play to win. And by win, I mean you utterly lose. Up that in SR, especially given how Lone Star is described in the sourcebook.
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Last thing I'd like to add, concerning all the talk of non-lethal takedown and what not. Police today are armed with hollow point rounds. True, there are tasers, beanbag rounds, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the cops play to win. And by win, I mean you utterly lose. Up that in SR, especially given how Lone Star is described in the sourcebook.
However, stick'n'shock ammo does stun damage, and is made of pure win. If you don't absolutely, positively need to kill someone it's the way to go, no questions asked.
Since it makes the gun do DV 6S(e), AP (-1/2 vs Impact) it actually improves the DV of anything short of an Assault Rifle, and offers some of the best performance versus armor of any ammo load. Plus, you can also go hot a lot more readily since they're basically long-range tasers and its easier to justify tasing someone than blowing their lungs out all over the wall.
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though if you read some of the comments in the different books, lonestar doesn't seem to care to much about that problem, if i remember right, one poster said that the lonestar's unofficial procedure is "blam, blam, 'pause', blam, blam, blam."
also remember by, i think, 2073 lonestar is out of seattle, is sexist, and pretty much only likes using humans for everything.
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though if you read some of the comments in the different books, lonestar doesn't seem to care to much about that problem, if i remember right, one poster said that the lonestar's unofficial procedure is "blam, blam, 'pause', blam, blam, blam."
also remember by, i think, 2073 lonestar is out of seattle, is sexist, and pretty much only likes using humans for everything.
Oh, yeah, not denying that; I'm just saying that in SR4 going non-lethal isn't a significant detriment to the officer's stopping power in a typical patrol situation anymore.
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I'm gearing up to do a Lone Star campaign, too.
Cool beans. It looks as though we are set to run rather different games in this arena, but I would be most interested to hear how yours turns out.
also remember by, i think, 2073 lonestar is out of seattle, is sexist, and pretty much only likes using humans for everything.
Well, starting the game in August of 2070, they still have the Seattle contract (but keeping it will be one of the major background elements of the game). On the other hand, yeah, they're quite male/human oriented. So far I've only put together one ork NPC (and she just does paperwork for the detectives) and no trolls.
Also, in case anyone is interested, I've settled on giving my players 350 bp. I'm also giving them some free bp for contacts. That combined with the standard issue gear and they aren't that far below normal anymore (and after a few months hard work detectiving, they'll have enough karma to even keep up with low-level shadowrunners).
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though if you read some of the comments in the different books, lonestar doesn't seem to care to much about that problem, if i remember right, one poster said that the lonestar's unofficial procedure is "blam, blam, 'pause', blam, blam, blam."
also remember by, i think, 2073 lonestar is out of seattle, is sexist, and pretty much only likes using humans for everything.
That NEEDS to be from the perspective of a shadowrunner and not actual policy. Any police agency that actually works that way would have their contract pulled in a month. The lawsuits would eat them alive.
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Unless the ones you were shooting were SINless, 'terrorists', or any number of other convenient excuses.
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You don't know that if you just start shooting. SINless or not, you have the right to defend yourself. If Lonestar just opens up on you without declaring who they are, you can legally defend yourself. You'll need appropriate witnesses and a good lawyer. But if you pull some run and then Lonestar doesn't follow proper procedure, you get off scott free. In fact, Lonestar might pull that stunt specifically to get you back out on the street. "We did OUR job, but a sleezy lawyer got him off."
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You don't know that if you just start shooting. SINless or not, you have the right to defend yourself. If Lonestar just opens up on you without declaring who they are, you can legally defend yourself. You'll need appropriate witnesses and a good lawyer. But if you pull some run and then Lonestar doesn't follow proper procedure, you get off scott free. In fact, Lonestar might pull that stunt specifically to get you back out on the street. "We did OUR job, but a sleezy lawyer got him off."
Well, no. If you're SINless, you don't have the (legal) right to do anything at all; because you don't exist. Morally, ethically? I absolutely agree, self-defense is a right I take very seriously. But in the ugly, dystopian, future of Shadowrun? If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person. It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.
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Never run a lone star campaign, that being said maybe some ofthe way organize it would help you out. If thepcs have run in, i usually run checks tween session to see if they get one on their tail.
First off i treat em like a company. New guys will have crap gear, probably second hand. i mean ever start at any company? the pcs will just be bodies on the street...basic lone star cannon fodder for the corp to write about as heros if they get killed. thats good pr ;D
"here's your weapon rookie"
"is that blood?"
"dammit, Fitz was supposed to wipe that down"
lethal v non lethal
thats all neighborhood dependant. LS guns down some SINless slug, thats technically not a crime. hey wants to work upper class he has to watch more carefully.
i saw a post saying you wanted gritty, did you consider glitchy gear for the first run or two? sg links cutting in and out... bad radio reception....augmented reflexes shut down. i wouldn't say screw the players with it, but for character building might be interesting. My guess would be most lone stars that survive their first tour buy their own stuff.
you want to limit nuyen,give em alimony or child support that eats up their paychecks. put it as a pc pentaly for extra bp.
i guess the gist is just bc the corp is in security. doesnt mean its going to try and protects its new guys past the minimum its required to. look at a mall cop...then picture him in an armored jacket with a riot gun...theres your typical lone star guy
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If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person. It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.
I don't think that's completely true. In Vice, it says that SINless can only be held in custody for up to 7 days. Sure, it's more than double the limit for SINners, but there is some limited protection in the system for the SINless. Of course, it also says that if they have reason to believe that you've given them a fake SIN, they can hold you until they verify the authenticity of your SIN, and as they have no time constraint on that they can effectively hold you indefinitely.
I read that as even the SINless, probationary citizens have minimal rights, but that those rights are often abused.
The larger problem with just opening fire with lethal intent is that LS has no clear way to know (generally) that their targets don't have SINs. And even if they believe them to be SINless, it's dangerous to risk a PR fiasco if it turns out they do have SINs. And, perhaps more importantly for my game, any number of people who may resist arrest or otherwise avoid the detectives won't necessarily be culprits so much as leads. Hard to question a witness if he's dead, SIN or no SIN.
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If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person. It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.
I don't think that's completely true. In Vice, it says that SINless can only be held in custody for up to 7 days. Sure, it's more than double the limit for SINners, but there is some limited protection in the system for the SINless. Of course, it also says that if they have reason to believe that you've given them a fake SIN, they can hold you until they verify the authenticity of your SIN, and as they have no time constraint on that they can effectively hold you indefinitely.
I read that as even the SINless, probationary citizens have minimal rights, but that those rights are often abused.
The larger problem with just opening fire with lethal intent is that LS has no clear way to know (generally) that their targets don't have SINs. And even if they believe them to be SINless, it's dangerous to risk a PR fiasco if it turns out they do have SINs. And, perhaps more importantly for my game, any number of people who may resist arrest or otherwise avoid the detectives won't necessarily be culprits so much as leads. Hard to question a witness if he's dead, SIN or no SIN.
Yeah, a SINless can only be held for seven days...if you take the time to arrest 'im and drag him into the station, creating electronic evidence of them and stuff. ;) Like so much else, it just comes down to the "feel" of the game you want to play. To the officer in question, it'll come down to what kind of neighborhood he's in when stuff goes down, what kind of day he had, what the SINner/SINless person looks like, what they're doing, what their metaspecies is, how many other cops are around, how many other civvies are around, how many other perps are around...and on and on and on.
But in the wireless age, one of the assumptions is that it's a lot more necessary to have a solid fake SIN, just for everyday travel and stuff. So the implication of that is that it's easier to spot someone with no SIN (real or fake). So if the shit's going down and a high-strung cop hasn't got any SIN information popping up on his heads-up display, while staring down a group of folks causing trouble, as he sweeps them with his smartlink, facial recognition software, and whatever other goodies you decide a beat cop has?
Well, shit. The most that might come of it, once he starts pulling the trigger, is explaining to the precinct Quartermaster that he's awful sorry about getting it mixed up, the magazine of gel rounds versus the magazine of real ammo, and all...
PR fiasco, PR schmiasco. Sometimes I like my dystopic cops to be, well, dystopic. Sometimes that means they do shoot now and ask questions later, especially if they don't think the person they're shooting at has any legal rights.
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PR fiascos only happen when the media gives a fuck, and given what little regard I have for the media IRL the dystopian world Critias and I run in, well ... Yeah, there may be a probe into bullet shortages in LS-patrolled jurisdictions by NBS affiliates when KE needs help messing with the Star. But that's what the local Police Officers Benevolence Foundation is for—to help hide discrepancies.
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To the officer in question, it'll come down to what kind of neighborhood he's in when stuff goes down, what kind of day he had, what the SINner/SINless person looks like, what they're doing, what their metaspecies is, how many other cops are around, how many other civvies are around, how many other perps are around...and on and on and on.
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PR fiasco, PR schmiasco. Sometimes I like my dystopic cops to be, well, dystopic. Sometimes that means they do shoot now and ask questions later, especially if they don't think the person they're shooting at has any legal rights.
And that's why I'm excited for this game. To see how the players (as Lone Star detectives) choose to handle these situations. If one of them happens to kill a SINless ork ganger who might have had a lead, they'll have to find the evidence they need some other way and he may catch a little flak from his bosses and a few high fives from some of his peers. But if it turns out that, that particular ork ganger was a SINner (which I'll know in advance rather than deciding afterwards in order to punish my players...they can punish themselves enough anyway), then they'll be catching some serious hell (risk getting transferred to the Redmond Barrens for one thing).
As for the media and KE, that'll certainly be a component for the game. Since I won't be threatening them with the dangers of getting caught by cops or corps (as I would a regular shadowrunning team), I get to threaten them with getting laid off when LS loses the city contract.
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If ork gangers are considered witnesses or leads (Good luck getting them to talk, btw), chances are they can just convict their favored chosen target on false grounds for any number of reasons using a multitude of means from false evidence to coerced confessions.
As devious as my runners are, the cops are a hundred times worse.
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If ork gangers are considered witnesses or leads (Good luck getting them to talk, btw), chances are they can just convict their favored chosen target on false grounds for any number of reasons using a multitude of means from false evidence to coerced confessions.
As devious as my runners are, the cops are a hundred times worse.
In that vein, I will at some point face them with a particularly difficult case to solve. It'll be a high profile case and there'll be heat on them to pick a suspect and find enough to make it stick, regardless if they actually find the guilty perp or not. One of my players is playing a fresh out of the academy white hat, and even some of the others may have qualms convicting the wrong person. But with the brass breathin' down their necks, what will they do?
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Shoot him with the dead perp's gun and call it a day.
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Why shoot him in the head with his gun when you can use a ceased street gun and shoot him with that. From all I've read Lone Star is not interested in justice, shoot first, shoot some more, arrest the survivors and call it a day.
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Lone Star is a corporation. There are TWO things they are very interested in.
1) Don't get sued.
2) Keep your contracts.
Cover ups cost money. They do it because not covering it up costs even more. But who's paying for the cover up? The offending officer... not in money, but in perks. Gun down a bunch of civilians going after a perp, ya, they got your back THIS time. But but officer McTriggerhappy is going to find himself assigned to a Barrens patrol if he does it again. And if he accidentally hits someone important, that coverup slides the other way and suddenly he's a rogue officer out on the street with no support.
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Well ya, but SINless aren't real civilians. They're just illegally living in the land creating barren areas that could be used for better purposes if they'd up and leave (or were cleared out).
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Well ya, but SINless aren't real civilians. They're just illegally living in the land creating barren areas that could be used for better purposes if they'd up and leave (or were cleared out).
I'd rather clear Bug City than Redmond Barrens. At least in Chicago you know you're facing bugs, not God-only-knows-what the gangs, runners, and malicious spirits have.
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Looking at Seattle 2072, I see that 89% of the downtown population is corporate affiliated (i.e. have SINs). The rest may have SINs but aren't corporate affiliated. Even in Puyallup, 18% are corporate affiliated. Now, let's say you just start shooting witnesses Downtown in order to sort things out later... If you geek five people, what's the chance that none of them have SINs? EXTREMELY small. Now, go on your shoot out in the Barrens... You've got about a 1/3 chance of not getting your hoop fried by a corporate lawsuit. Admittedly, you probably whacked a mafia soldier, but if you survive the incident there probably isn't much they can do after the fact.
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I'm not saying that 90% of Downtown is going to be a freeshoot zone, nor are the better parts of the barrens, but if you actually go into the barrens (ie past touristville) that SIN population count is going to drop like a rock.
But for the sake of argument, let's say you are in downtown. Most high security neighborhoods require public broadcast of you SIN information. Depending on your game style, this could be a minor offense to not do, but it is just as interpretable (especially for us dystopian loving people) that it is a major offense and is akin to running around with metal cylinders on a vest as far as cops are for determining if you're a threat. Even if you are a civilian, being a threat to society will get you shot.
Now let's go one step further. Let's say that that guy you shot was a corp citizen. What soil was he on when you shot him? If he's a SK SINner shot by a Lone Star SINner on UCAS soil, that legal battle is going to be so long and irritating, that SK is likely to not pursue it unless he happened to be someone very important (in which case, why didn't he have security personnel for protection and have his comm broadcasting).
Even on UCAS soil, most people are going to have a hard time actually getting together the money to go after a corp for a lawsuit, especially by SR standards where the average citizens pay is barely enough to scrape by.
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Looking at Seattle 2072, I see that 89% of the downtown population is corporate affiliated (i.e. have SINs).
And my team will be working out of downtown (not to say that their investigations will not sometimes lead them to Bellevue, Fort Lewis, Puyallup, and even Redmond.
I'm definitely going to be playing with the Lone Star is a corp and therefore is concerned about succeeding as a business, not justice. However, individuals within Lone Star (including some of the PCs bosses in the Enforcement arm of the company) may be concerned with justice. I'm sure some of the people who got jobs with LS had morals and ideals going into it.
But there will be pressure from the Corporate Arm of the company to "solve cases" and "fight crime" not find justice. LS is at risk of losing its Seattle contract, so killing citizens in a shootout will definitely get you reprimanded, at least (and their direct supervisor will be threatening them with transfer to the Redmond precinct before they even get their first case). But if they get rough with some SINless witnesses and/or suspects, their bosses won't be at all unhappy...especially if it leads to arrests and good PR.
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Most high security neighborhoods require public broadcast of you SIN information.
Really? Which ones. I totally need a couple hundred SINs for my identity theft scam... Hey, they're probably rich too... Jackpot!
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Most high security neighborhoods require public broadcast of you SIN information.
Really? Which ones. I totally need a couple hundred SINs for my identity theft scam... Hey, they're probably rich too... Jackpot!
Check out Runner's Companion page 157 for some discussion of this.
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Some RL examples...
Officers can hold people until the person's identity is verified to the OFFICER's satisfaction. In 2072, there's probably a bureaucratic formula they have to follow, though.
Shooting people is usually a bad idea, even for Lone Star. Remember Murphy; he's an employee in every company at the lower levels. One, there's always a chance of some media group deciding to do an 'expose' of bungling cops, and guess who the lucky guys to be fired to satisfy public demands will be? Two, you never know really who you might be shooting. Sure, that trog ganger might be up to no good; but he might also be someone's CI (confidential informant). Drekking off a high-level detective/supervisor is not a good career move. Three, it's in everyone's best interest (everyone being Lone Star) for Lone Star not to be known for shooting people who don't resist with guns/lethal implements. Sure, you may have smartgun(tm) links; but do the gangers shooting back? And if Lone Star gets that 'gun-happy' rep on the streets, you can bet everyone will be taking shots. Whereas if it's known that they beat you up, but don't shoot you, (unless you get stupid) a lot of street types will run but not shoot Stars. This makes for happeir co-workers.
That said, there's a lot the business of justice can do. Getting convictions for crimes is good; even if the guy you nabbed isn't guilty of that particular car-jacking, he's guilty of something, right? Find it and book him. Set goals for your officers; 'We need 50 muggers busted by the end of the month'. Encourage (and reward) 'creative' methods of solving cases and proving guilt (as long as it can't be proven the officer did anything wrong). Illicit entry? No; you saw a crime in progress. Profiling? No, you witnessed the perps committing a traffic violation. And have the superiors get on the officers about complex, long cases. "Look, it's better to have 5 convictions for burglary in a month than one homicide conviction in three months. Until this guy kills someone important, stop wasting time on the investigation."
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That said, there's a lot the business of justice can do. Getting convictions for crimes is good; even if the guy you nabbed isn't guilty of that particular car-jacking, he's guilty of something, right? Find it and book him. Set goals for your officers; 'We need 50 muggers busted by the end of the month'. Encourage (and reward) 'creative' methods of solving cases and proving guilt (as long as it can't be proven the officer did anything wrong). Illicit entry? No; you saw a crime in progress. Profiling? No, you witnessed the perps committing a traffic violation. And have the superiors get on the officers about complex, long cases. "Look, it's better to have 5 convictions for burglary in a month than one homicide conviction in three months. Until this guy kills someone important, stop wasting time on the investigation."
This is how I see a private law enforcement company working. Five petty crimes solved is five in the win column. 1 murder is still just one win. And it's only a win if you get the conviction. Murders are notoriously long court cases. Take the low hanging fruit, after all, Capone got nailed on mail fraud.