Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: DoubleTap on <03-02-12/2013:54>
-
Ok, one of my players playing a troll, with near maxed out augmented body, and strength, wants you man carry a light auto cannon. Now this guy is both a rules lawyer and munchkin. Other then a simple Hell no, what game mechanics can I use to stop this?
-
Other than trying to figure out a way to hide said weapon? Or the effects if he ever uses it?
If it's ever used, that's a big increase in the "Find the Terrorist-Shadowrunners PDQ" sent out on every Security and Metroplex Guard freq possible.
And, remember, there'll at least be one camera that catches him doing it, with a big reward to the owner of said camera when they provide it's footage.
-
Like a panther cannon? That's kind of like par for course for trolls...I get nervous when I don't see a troll with a panther cannon, means the troll's probably really angry.
Seriously though...troll carrying a panther cannon is an iconic image of shadowrun.
The issues that the troll faces are;
1. Needs Heavy Weapon skill and suffers from double Recoil modifiers.
2. Not easily concealable, even on a troll, hehe.
3. Mustaches are incompatible with assault cannons without taking the Quality MegaMagnum.
4. Having one on one's person is like setting up a booth to deal cocaine at a DEA conference. You stick out and the authorities really really really would like to have a word with you.
...unless I'm missing something, of course. Which, I'm sure, if I am, then someone will quickly point out my errors. :)
-
more like, a light auto cannon usally mounted on IFV's. when i think that hard ware i'm thinking of the 300+ pound 25MM from the bradley . Yes I've had to crew one. Despite me trying to point out that you can't conceal it, and its would probably put you on the top ten, he still wants to do it.
-
more like, a light auto cannon usally mounted on IFV's. when i think that hard ware i'm thinking of the 300+ pound 25MM from the bradley . Yes I've had to crew one. Despite me trying to point out that you can't conceal it, and its would probably put you on the top ten, he still wants to do it.
He's a troll. They're huge and could probably handle the thing. The "top ten" thing would really be going way overboard though.
-
more like, a light auto cannon usally mounted on IFV's. when i think that hard ware i'm thinking of the 300+ pound 25MM from the bradley .
At this point then...which specific weapon is the player saying he wants his troll to have?
[edit for more text]
Because: If the player says "I want an auto cannon" and is thinking of the panther cannon out of SR4A and the GM is thinking a 25mm cannon off a Bradley...we'll there's the issue.
-
more like, a light auto cannon usally mounted on IFV's. when i think that hard ware i'm thinking of the 300+ pound 25MM from the bradley . Yes I've had to crew one. Despite me trying to point out that you can't conceal it, and its would probably put you on the top ten, he still wants to do it.
Well, if he cuts down the barrel, and deals with a limited ammo amount, and a drekpot of recoil, let him have his little toy.
Then find out just how many toys the Metroplex Guard have when he first opens up with it. ;D
-
I actually think the guy's probably wanting to use the GE Vigilant Light Autocannon listed in Arsenal, P123-124, since it's the only "Light Autocannon" I've seen. If that's so I, frankly, say let him have it, and much joy to him. Shadowrun massively undersells the stopping power of automatic weapons and, based on the things stats, the Vigilant is nothing more than a .50cal HMG with a Minigun upgrade that's been given its proper stats.
The global standard for HMGs today is the Browning M2, which fires the same round as the modern Barrett .50-cal rifle and was, in fact, so good at long range that its battlefield performance was the inspiration for the more dedicated .50-cal sharpshooter weapons. In Shadowrun, though, all HMGs do 7P DV -3 AP, while the Barrett rifle does 9P DV -4 AP. Meeting in the middle with 8P DV -4 AP seems fair to me.
-
I actually think the guy's probably wanting to use the GE Vigilant Light Autocannon listed in Arsenal, P123-124, since it's the only "Light Autocannon" I've seen. If that's so I, frankly, say let him have it, and much joy to him. Shadowrun massively undersells the stopping power of automatic weapons and, based on the things stats, the Vigilant is nothing more than a .50cal HMG with a Minigun upgrade that's been given its proper stats.
The global standard for HMGs today is the Browning M2, which fires the same round as the modern Barrett .50-cal rifle and was, in fact, so good at long range that its battlefield performance was the inspiration for the more dedicated .50-cal sharpshooter weapons. In Shadowrun, though, all HMGs do 7P DV -3 AP, while the Barrett rifle does 9P DV -4 AP. Meeting in the middle with 8P DV -4 AP seems fair to me.
Meh, just say 'screw it' and give him a Vanquisher :)
-
I actually think the guy's probably wanting to use the GE Vigilant Light Autocannon listed in Arsenal, P123-124, since it's the only "Light Autocannon" I've seen.
SR4A pg 320: "Panther XXL: This enormous assault cannon fires special ammunition common to the primary weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a smartgun system." Stats listed on pg 321 under "Assault Cannon."
-
SR4A pg 320: "Panther XXL: This enormous assault cannon fires special ammunition common to the primary weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a smartgun system." Stats listed on pg 321 under "Assault Cannon."
That is not, however, a "light auto cannon", which is specifically what Doubletap's player was asking for.
-
Years ago I had a player of a human street sam who wanted his main weapon to be the HMG from the Street Samurai Guide. When I mentioned that it was a bigger weapon than most people who carry around he looked at the description and said, "But it says it's 'man-portable'."
Some people just like the big boom. If they're trying to carry it into the meet, yeah, it's a problem. But if they leave it in the van and only get it out for the big runs it's not that big a deal. One thing I've always done is let trolls treat weapons as if they were lighter. They use the same skill as everyone else and there's no mechanical change, but the way a troll uses a machine gun is how a human would use an assault rifle; an assault rifle is used like an SMG, an SMG like a machine pistol, a heavy pistol like a hold-out, and so on.
-
If he does in fact want to carry around a Main Gun, look no further than the Weapon Mount rules for Heavy Turrets, which require a minimum body of 14 on the vehicle in question. If he doesn't have 14 Body, he can't carry it around like a normal weapon.
And if he really went through the trouble to hit 14 Body, Then he's freaking massive anyway. I say let him have the gun and suffer the consequences of actually using such a thing. Plus give everybody a +2 bonus to hit him, as per the advanced rules in Arsenal for size of your target.
You could also figure out what one weighs, then use the lift and carry rules to see if he can wield it. A character can lift and carry Strength*10 kilograms without a test, so if he really did max out at 15 Strength, then he can carry 150 kilos without a test. If the gun weighs more than that, make him do a Body+Strength test every time he tries to pick it up. Don't forget to double all uncompensated recoil either, and since its a Minigun, that beast has a Recoil of -14. Also add in the -2 penalty for Misfit Weapon Size, and consider the 'Carrying Heavy Weapons' advanced rule from Arsenal that would have him resisting half the damage of his shots from the kickback.
Once you start laying down the law on all these penalties he's taking to use this thing, it'll rapidly seem not worth it.
-
with a 14 Body and close/equivalent Strength, it would still be feasible. He'd average 9 hits on the Strength+Body test, and mods could lower the Recoil to reasonable levels, say -4 (-8 after doubling). Then he's averaging 5 hits to resist kickback from Body alone as well. You wouldnt be as awesome as GI Joe's Roadblock, but maybe Heavy Duty.
Edit: recoil number assumed you could add a Stock/Shockpad, Underbarrel Weight, Gas Vent 3, Harness, and the recoil comp from Strength 14-15.
-
SR4A pg 320: "Panther XXL: This enormous assault cannon fires special ammunition common to the primary weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a smartgun system." Stats listed on pg 321 under "Assault Cannon."
That is not, however, a "light auto cannon", which is specifically what Doubletap's player was asking for.
Gotcha, I see where I failed to make the distinction. In light of this, I would say no then, since the GE Vigilant light autocannon is a vehicle weapon which "are not intended for use by even the strongest metahuman, either because of their size, bulky support equipment, or massive recoil." (AR 123). A GE Vindicator Minigun (AR 29) would give the character the same look, style, as the Vigilant or an Assault Cannon for better punch (10P vs the 8P on the Vigilant) but at reduced (SS) rate of fire.
But if the player said they wanted to use a Vigilant mounted on a reinforced troll-sized granny-walker and wheel it around with them...sure; but the walker costs extra at Geriatrics-r-Us. :) (or any other specialized modification + cost to allow for the vehicle weapon to used hand-held or semi-hand-held. And Ryo's suggestions make for a great basis on that ruling).
In Shadowrun, though, all HMGs do 7P DV -3 AP, while the Barrett rifle does 9P DV -4 AP. Meeting in the middle with 8P DV -4 AP seems fair to me.
Based on the damage values and AP alone, I would agree with you, but it's the additional stat that HMGs can fire at FA, the Barret only at SA, and the autocannon fires at FA+ (or FA-Minigun) rates that makes me think the 8P, -4 AP, FA+ isn't exactly in the middle; given that having the option to lay down 30 rounds per phase from a 200 round belt at a modified 12P, -4 AP is, well, a very handy option to have.
Though with some thoughtful modifications/gyroscope hip mount/etc, I wouldn't have too much of a problem letting a player have something like this but just so they know, once the enemy is aware of the autocannon armed troll they'll probably feel the the fastest and most efficient way to deal with the target is with a medium range missile or two from aerial combat drones or snipers or bring in the spirits or all three. Only the most idiotic BTL-slotting gangers are going to do a frontal assault on the troll. Everyone else is going to do their best not to call attention to themselves and wait to target a kill shot on the troll before engaging anyone else on the troll's team (save maybe the team's mage riding Master-Blaster style on the back of the autocannon armed troll, of course).
-
Yeah, you can either use the unambiguous quote from the rules to disallow it completely, or use Ryo's suggestions to make it a difficult, but barely possible, thing to do. The only thing I would add is that I would nix any barrel mods like heavy barrel or gas-vent, for a minigun-type weapon with rotating barrels.
-
all great ideas thank you. I after showing him how much it would cost to mod the thing into something troll potable, not counting how much it would cost just to gett the work done, he settled for a Vindicator mini gun, with a Ammo pack.
-
also, he said he wanted a troll portable version of the M252 bushmaster.
-
also, he said he wanted a troll portable version of the M252 bushmaster.
Buh? :o
-
Honestly, I would let the player have his toy, and live with the consequences. It would either become a once in a long while piece of firepower, or end up causing the character so much trouble it would not be worth carrying, leading back to the first result.
If you have warned him about what a drekstorm it will cause with authorities you have done your part. If he doesn't listen, he has had fair warning.
-
2. Not easily concealable, even on a troll, hehe.
Just stick it in his pants and go to an elf stripper bar. He's just happy. Optionally, if he is Bubba the Love Troll, you don't need the strippers.
-
My Friend is playing a nine foot tall troll.... tell him he can't hide a panther. :P
"I just got big bones"
:P
-
also, he said he wanted a troll portable version of the M252 bushmaster.
The 81mm mortar launcher, or the 25mm auto-cannon, which is actually the "M242"?
The former is quite possible; they've got a shoulder-fired mortar (the Esprit MPML-3) in WAR! on p155.
The second would basically just be an Assault Cannon with (given the rate of fire on those things) a Semi-Auto mod.