Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: zarzak on <03-15-12/0328:06>
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Hey all!
This is my 2nd character ever, and I'd like some help making him better now that I understand the system a little more. :)
My concept is that he's a 'high-class' smuggler. He runs a legit helicopter courier business for wealthy clients and corporations - for when they need some special package delivered quickly and securely. He also smuggles on the down-low, and has modified his helicopter to do so. His goal in life (and why he shadowruns) is to save up enough money to buy a zeppelin (that 800,000 nuyen one) and do an absurd amount of modifications on it.
In terms of mechanics I wanted him to be an amazingly unbelievable pilot, and have some decent face skills for smuggling. Sort of like a James Bond (but with piloting instead of driving).
I apologize in advance if the formatting isn't standard for the forum ...
As this is one of my first characters - am I missing anything critical? Should I change anything? From perusing I know that I probably need more common use matrix programs, and maybe a legit commlink ... and some way of detecting RFID tags? Where would I free up the money for those?
[spoiler="old version"]
Attributes (195 points)
Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 7 (8 with magic)
Strength 2
Charisma 4
Intuition 2
Logic 4
Willpower 2
Special Attributes (40 points)
Essence 6
Initiative 9 (10 with magic)
Edge 6
Magic 1
Qualities (0 points)
Exceptional Atribute 20 Reaction up to 7
Aptitude 10 Pilot Aircraft up to 7
Adept 5 adept powers
Day Job -15 work as a high-class helicopter courier (gains 5000/month)
In Debt -20 20000 loan (owes 30000, 3000/month interest)
Skills (136 points)
Pilot Aircraft 7 (8 with magic) Reaction
Aeronautics Mechanic 4 Logic
Electronic Warfare 1 Logic
Electronics (Skill Group) 2 Logic
Influence (Skill Group) 4 Charisma
Pistol 2 Agility
Gunnery 1 Agility
Parachuting 1 Body
Perception 2 Intuition
Knowledge Skills (0 bp, 18 free points)
English - Native -
Language1 4 Intuition <-- depends on setting
Engineering 4 Logic
Gambling 2 Intuition
Smuggling Safe Houses 2 Intuition
Philosophy 6 Logic
Gear (25 bp)
125,000
145,000 total (gear + loan)
Northrup Wasp (autogyro) 106000
ECM 2 standard 0
ECCM 2 standard 0
SunCell 5000
Smuggling Compartment 1500
Anti-Theft System 2000
Ejection Seat 500
Ammenities (middle) 100
Manual Overide 500
Weapon Mount (external, remote control, flexible) standard
Ingram White Knight 2000
Exploding Rounds (2x belt of 100) 100
Level 3 Pilot upgrade 1000
Parachute 500
Ruger Thunderbolt with Smartgun System 1150
Smartgun System 0
Electronic Firing 1000
Improved Range Finder 1000
Contact Lenses (Level 3) 50
Image Link 25
Smartlink 500
Vision Enhancement Level 3 300
Actioneer Business Clothes 1500
Explosive Rounds (3x clip of 12) 150
Stick'n'Shock Rounds (2x clip of 12) 160
Transys Avalon 5000
Novatech Navi 1500
Fake SIN (Level 4) 4000
Emotitoy (nonmobile) (level 6) 600
False-Bottomed Attache Case 300
Certified Credstick 25 <-- for his business
Certified Credstick 25 <-- for his shadowrunning
Tag Eraser 150
Keylock (Rating 6) 60
Clearsight Autosoft (Level 2) 1000
Targeting (LMG) Autosoft (Level 2) 1000
Defense Autosoft 1000
Maneuever (Aircraft) Autosoft (Level 2) 1000
Electronic Warfare Autosoft (Level 2) 1000
Encrypt Common Use (Level 6) 600
Command Common Use (Level 6) 600
Low Lifestyle (1 month) 2000
Sum Gear 144995
Leftover Money 5
Starting Money (3d6)*50
Contacts (Connection, Loyalty)
Smuggling Contact (3, 1) 4
BP Spent: 400
Adept Powers (have 1 magic point worth)
Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) 0.75
Improved Ability (Pilot Aircraft) 0.25
[/spoiler]
[spoiler="new version"]
Attributes
Body 3 20
Agility 1 0
Reaction 5 (7 ) 40
Strength 2 10
Charisma 2 10
Intuition 4 30
Logic 5 (6 ) 40
Willpower 2 10
Sum Base Attributes 160
Essence 6 0
Initiative 9 (12) 0
Edge 5 30
Magic 5 40
Sum Special Attributes 70
Quality
Exceptional Atribute 20 Reaction up to 7
Artisan's Way 10 Discounted Powers
Adept 5 adept powers
Day Job -15 work as a high-class helicopter courier (gains 5000/month)
In Debt -20 20000 loan (owes 30000, 3000/month interest)
Sum Quality 0
Skills
Pilot Aircraft 6 24 Reaction
Heavy Weapons 4 16 Agility <-- Logic
Gunnery 4 16 Agility <---Logic
Dodge 4 16 Reaction
Aeronautics Mechanic 1 4 Logic
Perception 3 12 Intuition
Stealth (Skill Group) 4 40 Intuition/Agility <---Logic
Influence (Skill Group) 1 10 Charisma
Sum Skill 138
Knowledge Skills 27
English - Native -
Language1 4 Intution
Smuggling Routes 4 Intuition
Smuggling Safehouses 4 Intution
Black Market (Locations) 4 Intuition
Philosophy 6 Logic
Engineering 2 Logic
Gambling 3 Intuition
Adept Powers 5
Improved Reflexes II 1.875 +2 reaction, +2 initiative passes
Mind Over Matter 1.5 use logic for all agility tests
Keen Wits 0.75 +1 Logic
4.125
Potential Additional Options
Eidetic Sense Memory 0.375
Multi-Tasking 0.375
Improved Ability (Technical/Vehicle Skills) 0.1875
Gear 130,000 26 150,000 total (gear + loan)
Northrup Wasp (autogyro) 10 106000
ECM 2 0 standard 0
ECCM 2 0 standard 0
SunCell 1 slot 5000
Smuggling Compartment 1 slot 1500
Anti-Theft System 2 slots 2000
Ejection Seat 1 slot 500
Ammenities (middle) 1 slot 100
Manual Overide 1 slot 500
3 slots open
Weapon Mount (external, remote control, flexible) 2 weapon 0
1 weapon open
Level 3 Pilot Pilot OS 1000 <-- only 1000 to upgrade from pilot 2
Parachute MISC 500
Ingram White Knight 2000
Folding Stock 0
Gas Vent System V 0
Smartgun System 2000
Electronic Firing 1000
Auto-Adusting Underbarrel Weight 150
Contact Lenses (Level 3) Eyeware (3 slots) 150
Image Link 1 25
Smartlink 1 500
Vision Enhancement Level 3 1 300
Actioneer Business Clothes 5|3 1500
Form-fitting Body Armor (Shirt) 3|0 500
PPP Forearm Guards 0|1 200
PPP Shin Guards 0|1 150
PPP Leg Casing 0|1 350
Total Armor 8|6
Total Encumberance 6|6 Body x 2 = 6
Explosive Rounds (5x clip of 12) Ammo 250
Stick'n'Shock Rounds (2x clip of 12) Ammo 160
Transys Avalon Commlink 5000 <-- for smuggling use
Novatech Navi OS 1500 <-- for smuggling use
Fake SIN (Level 1) SIN 1000 <-- for smuggling use
Meta Link Commlink 100 <-- for business use
Vector Xim OS 200 <-- for business use
Fake SIN (Level 4) SIN 4000 <-- for business use
Emotitoy (nonmobile) (level 6) MISC 600
False-Bottomed Attache Case MISC 300
Certified Credstick MISC 25 <-- for business use
Certified Credstick MISC 25 <-- for smuggling use
Radio Signal Scanner (Level 6) MISC 150
Tag Eraser MISC 150
Keylock (Rating 1) SECURITY 10
Clearsight Autosoft (Level 2) Matrix Program 1000
Targeting (LMG) Autosoft (Level 2) Matrix Program 1000
Defense Autosoft (Level 2) Matrix Program 1000
Maneuever (Aircraft) Autosoft (Level 2) Matrix Program 1000
Electronic Warfare Autosoft (Level 2) Matrix Program 1000
Encrypt Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Command Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Analyze Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Scan Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Browse Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Edit Common Use (Level 6) Matrix Program 600
Low Lifestyle (1 month) 2000
Sum Gear 149995
Leftover Money 5
Starting Money (3d6)*50
Contacts (Connection, Loyalty)
Smuggling Contact (4, 2) 6
BP Spent: 400
[/spoiler]
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why didn't You make him a Rigger ?
(with Riggercontrol and other 'ware)
and If you wantetd to do an Adept driver why didn't you raise the MAG Attribute for more Powerpoints ?
With a Dance up in the Sky
Medicineman
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I hate to be a negative Nancy here, but it really looks like you optimized yourself into a really specific corner, and I don't think it's a very useful one. If a mission doesn't call for using a helicopter, you aren't much use... and you also aren't all that great with the helicopter. You have made a guy who is almost the best in the world at flying a helicopter manually - but manual control is what you use if you're a street samurai with a huge reaction anyways, and you want to pick up driving skills on the side.
I would suggest either remaking yourself as a jumped-in rigger - and also making sure that you can do enough things that aren't "fly a helicopter" that you don't have to sit around doing nothing when it isn't helpful, like picking up other useful adept powers, and some smaller drones, or remaking yourself as a Command rigger and doing the same.
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I hate to be a negative Nancy here, but it really looks like you optimized yourself into a really specific corner, and I don't think it's a very useful one. If a mission doesn't call for using a helicopter, you aren't much use... and you also aren't all that great with the helicopter. You have made a guy who is almost the best in the world at flying a helicopter manually - but manual control is what you use if you're a street samurai with a huge reaction anyways, and you want to pick up driving skills on the side.
I would suggest either remaking yourself as a jumped-in rigger - and also making sure that you can do enough things that aren't "fly a helicopter" that you don't have to sit around doing nothing when it isn't helpful, like picking up other useful adept powers, and some smaller drones, or remaking yourself as a Command rigger and doing the same.
Thanks for the replies. :)
The one thing I really wanted him to be good at was manually flying things ... I just picked the helicopter because it was the cheapest flying vehicle I could find. In my mind everything about the character other than that one skill is mutable.
So I should rebuild him to be a rigger instead (so he would be a rigger who just also happens to be good at manually flying things?)
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Well, if you want to be good at manually flying things, just be a street samurai and pick up Pilot on the side. Just be aware that "very good at manually flying" ~ "meh OK at flying" because riggers are better at that, and be aware that "manually flying things" is kind of a niche skill.
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Well, if you want to be good at manually flying things, just be a street samurai and pick up Pilot on the side. Just be aware that "very good at manually flying" ~ "meh OK at flying" because riggers are better at that, and be aware that "manually flying things" is kind of a niche skill.
Its fine with me if its a niche skill (I'm OK with being a little weaker for character concept reasons ... I just don't want to screw myself or my team over).
Street samurai, huh ... I see how that would work, and it would work well with the smuggler thing too (more of a han solo type of smuggler, guy who is good in combat but also smuggles).
Thanks!
One last question then: Whats considered decent for a street samurai in terms of combat dice? I know I'll need initiative passes, but for, say heavy weapons or (or pistols, or whatever) ... should I be shooting for 15 dice? 20 dice? 10 dice?
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If its gonna be a "real Rigger" (with 'Ware) he can be best at flying things but both manually AND Jumped in
You could even play an Adept Rigger by sacrificing 1 Point Essence for Datajack, Riggercontrol....there's even Room for a synaptic Booster Level 1
and what about a Glider instead of a Gyrocopter ?
with an allternate Dance
Medicineman
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15 is a good "I am good at shooting people" number to aim for. Less than about 12 means you are not good at shooting people. You might want to take a look at my sig for some example characters. Being good at flying things manually isn't actually a huge investment, so you should probably aim to be good at fighting as well. The main issue you'll have is that the autogyro is expensive so you'll start a bit under-equipped, but there's not really a way to avoid that.
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I was looking over this character, and well not to beat a dead horse but specializing in flight might be bad Idea, not saying that working as a pilot is bad idea but your specialized there. I'd change four aspects:
-First the Wasp is cool but its a single man aircraft so no shadowrunning crew, unless your working as aerial weapon support you got nothing to do on runs (the usual rigger problem), I say drop it. Your character works as a courier they would supply the aircraft most places have fleets for people to fly.
-Second take more pilot skills ground, water, and air should be in your area that way you can drive the truck your crew needs you to or steal that boat to get to that island. Being flexible in piloting is what really matters for smugglers/riggers so you can help your crew get where they need to be and back.
-Three: You need more knowledge skills such as: Smuggling route, Smuggling safe houses, Black Market (locations)
-Four: More contacts like a mechanic, other smugglers, perhaps a pirate, a fixer, and fences.
All in all I'd rebuild him differently, if you want to go adept as it do it that would be interesting.
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It sounds like you're going to rework this character so I won't go too far into this, but if this is your 2nd character then, for educational purposes, let's consider how much you spent on those final two points of Reaction:
20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
That's 55 BP, or 14% of a 400-point build, spent on two points of one attribute. That's expensive, and since the only skills linked to Reaction are the Pilot skills and Dodge (fine, and Riding, for when your copter breaks down and you take a horse instead), you won't get to roll those two extra dice very often. But if you must, there are much cheaper ways to find two points of Reaction, either from magic or cyber/bioware.
If you want to be an adept, put 30 BP into Magic and buy Improved Reflexes at rating 2, which will net you your Reaction bonus, two extra initiative passes, and will leave you half an extra power point to spare. Even better, pick up The Artisan's Way for 10 BP, which will discount the cost of Improved Reflexes and your Improved Ability vehicle skill.
If you opt for cyberware or bioware instead of Magic, you have a long list of options that will net you 2 points of Reaction and 2 extra IP. Wired Reflexes at rating 2, the most basic option, will set you back ¥32,000, which costs all of 7 BP.
If you're trying to keep it stay away from implants, there are chemicals if you need a Reaction boost (Betameth, Cram, Jazz, Novacoke, and Snuff).
One final note on your character as you have him. You selected Improved Physical Attribute at a cost of 0.75 power points. Per the book (p. 176), "This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double." In other words, boosting your attribute from 7 (your quality-modified natural maximum) to 8 would cost 1.5 power points instead of 0.75. But even the 0.75 is too expensive when you consider the other options outlined above.
Hope that helps! Have fun with your character once you get him worked out.
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It sounds like you're going to rework this character so I won't go too far into this, but if this is your 2nd character then, for educational purposes, let's consider how much you spent on those final two points of Reaction:
20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
That's 55 BP, or 14% of a 400-point build, spent on two points of one attribute. That's expensive, and since the only skills linked to Reaction are the Pilot skills and Dodge (fine, and Riding, for when your copter breaks down and you take a horse instead), you won't get to roll those two extra dice very often. But if you must, there are much cheaper ways to find two points of Reaction, either from magic or cyber/bioware.
If you want to be an adept, put 30 BP into Magic and buy Improved Reflexes at rating 2, which will net you your Reaction bonus, two extra initiative passes, and will leave you half an extra power point to spare. Even better, pick up The Artisan's Way for 10 BP, which will discount the cost of Improved Reflexes and your Improved Ability vehicle skill.
If you opt for cyberware or bioware instead of Magic, you have a long list of options that will net you 2 points of Reaction and 2 extra IP. Wired Reflexes at rating 2, the most basic option, will set you back ¥32,000, which costs all of 7 BP.
If you're trying to keep it stay away from implants, there are chemicals if you need a Reaction boost (Betameth, Cram, Jazz, Novacoke, and Snuff).
One final note on your character as you have him. You selected Improved Physical Attribute at a cost of 0.75 power points. Per the book (p. 176), "This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double." In other words, boosting your attribute from 7 (your quality-modified natural maximum) to 8 would cost 1.5 power points instead of 0.75. But even the 0.75 is too expensive when you consider the other options outlined above.
Hope that helps! Have fun with your character once you get him worked out.
Thanks for the advice! :)
I guess that reaction isn't a good attribute to max at the start, if you're limited to 400 points. Probably shouldn't max any, for that matter.
I didn't know about the way of the adept stuff - just looked it up, very cool! I do prefer the magic route ... I like the idea of having all my essence. :)
For the improved physical attribute - I for some reading it as costing extra points to go above the augmented maximum (and now that I read it again I realize I was being silly) - thanks for the correction. :)
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20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
As a notable alternative:
10 BP: SURGE (Class III) (Metagenetic Improvement (Reaction) + 10 BP of Negative Metagenetic Qualities) = +1 to Min & Max.
10 BP: Genetic Heritage (Genetic Optimization (Reaction)*) = +1 to Max
10 BP: Reaction 7
Still Reaction 7, but soft-capped and 25 BP cheaper. With an Aug Max of 12 you've also still got plenty of room to accept Reaction bonuses from other sources.
*Genetic Heritage says you get one Geneware mod for "free", which I read as costing no Nuyen or Essence given the context of having inherited the mod from one of your parents. I may be wrong.
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20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
As a notable alternative:
10 BP: SURGE (Class III) (Metagenetic Improvement (Reaction) + 10 BP of Negative Metagenetic Qualities) = +1 to Min & Max.
10 BP: Genetic Heritage (Genetic Optimization (Reaction)*) = +1 to Max
10 BP: Reaction 7
Still Reaction 7, but soft-capped and 25 BP cheaper. With an Aug Max of 12 you've also still got plenty of room to accept Reaction bonuses from other sources.
*Genetic Heritage says you get one Geneware mod for "free", which I read as costing no Nuyen or Essence given the context of having inherited the mod from one of your parents. I may be wrong.
Or you could throw Exceptional Attribute in there too for more Reaction goodness. ::)
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20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
As a notable alternative:
10 BP: SURGE (Class III) (Metagenetic Improvement (Reaction) + 10 BP of Negative Metagenetic Qualities) = +1 to Min & Max.
10 BP: Genetic Heritage (Genetic Optimization (Reaction)*) = +1 to Max
10 BP: Reaction 7
Still Reaction 7, but soft-capped and 25 BP cheaper. With an Aug Max of 12 you've also still got plenty of room to accept Reaction bonuses from other sources.
*Genetic Heritage says you get one Geneware mod for "free", which I read as costing no Nuyen or Essence given the context of having inherited the mod from one of your parents. I may be wrong.
Or you could throw Exceptional Attribute in there too for more Reaction goodness. ::)
Nah, man, not worth it.
At that point, you're better off just take SURGE (Class III) and get a Metagenetic Improvement to something else, like Agility or Logic (depending on if he's going MoM), for an even 35 BP of Qualities (15 for SURGE + 10 "spillover" from the 2nd MI, + 10 for GH) right there.
WHOOPS! Just noticed I typed Class III before. Should only be Class II for 10BP.
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20 BP: Exceptional Attribute
10 BP: Reaction 6
25 BP: Reaction 7 (hardcap)
As a notable alternative:
10 BP: SURGE (Class III) (Metagenetic Improvement (Reaction) + 10 BP of Negative Metagenetic Qualities) = +1 to Min & Max.
10 BP: Genetic Heritage (Genetic Optimization (Reaction)*) = +1 to Max
10 BP: Reaction 7
Still Reaction 7, but soft-capped and 25 BP cheaper. With an Aug Max of 12 you've also still got plenty of room to accept Reaction bonuses from other sources.
*Genetic Heritage says you get one Geneware mod for "free", which I read as costing no Nuyen or Essence given the context of having inherited the mod from one of your parents. I may be wrong.
Or you could throw Exceptional Attribute in there too for more Reaction goodness. ::)
Nah, man, not worth it.
At that point, you're better off just take SURGE (Class III) and get a Metagenetic Improvement to something else, like Agility or Logic (depending on if he's going MoM), for an even 35 BP of Qualities (15 for SURGE + 10 "spillover" from the 2nd MI, + 10 for GH) right there.
WHOOPS! Just noticed I typed Class III before. Should only be Class II for 10BP.
Good point. Got one character I built that I SURGEd and Restricted Gear'ed up to an effective 12 Agility.
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Good point. Got one character I built that I SURGEd and Restricted Gear'ed up to an effective 12 Agility.
Meh, 12 is easy. Elf = 2-7(10), MI = 3-8(12), pump to 7, Muscle Toner 4, Suprathyroid gland.
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Good point. Got one character I built that I SURGEd and Restricted Gear'ed up to an effective 12 Agility.
Meh, 12 is easy. Elf = 2-7(10), MI = 3-8(12), pump to 7, Muscle Toner 4, Suprathyroid gland.
Did calculations last night, and discovered that adding Exceptional Attribute and the genetech that increases maximum would take augmented maximum to 15.
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Yep.
Capped Elf 7
Metagenic Improvement (Agi) 8
Exceptional Attribute 9
Genetic Optimization 10
Suprathyroid 11
Muscle Toner R.4 15
With a Longarms of 6(7) (Sniper Rifles +2), using Reflex Recorder for the skill augmentation obviously, Smartlink +2, and aiming three times you can get a total of 29 dice to your attack DP. If you've got a team with you, or the money to set up a drone network, a rating 4 TacNet will net you a total of 33 dice. Mmmm...11 hits on average is nice. With a Barret that's an average of 20 DV with a -4 (or -8 if you use APDS) AP. There isn't a whole lot that can stand up to that. It'd actually take the 25 CM monster I built down in three shots on average (that build has a ridiculous amount of armor).
These are the things you run into when you piss off megacorps.
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Yep.
Capped Elf 7
Metagenic Improvement (Agi) 8
Exceptional Attribute 9
Genetic Optimization 10
Suprathyroid 11
Muscle Toner R.4 15
With a Longarms of 6(7) (Sniper Rifles +2), using Reflex Recorder for the skill augmentation obviously, Smartlink +2, and aiming three times you can get a total of 29 dice to your attack DP. If you've got a team with you, or the money to set up a drone network, a rating 4 TacNet will net you a total of 33 dice. Mmmm...11 hits on average is nice. With a Barret that's an average of 20 DV with a -4 (or -8 if you use APDS) AP. There isn't a whole lot that can stand up to that. It'd actually take the 25 CM monster I built down in three shots on average (that build has a ridiculous amount of armor).
These are the things you run into when you piss off megacorps.
I would save the Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization until after game play starts, personally, though. Sure it's more in karma to get the quality and to buy up the attribute, but it leaves you a bit more rounded in creation.
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Thats just wrong. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong, I want two.
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So, going with the idea of being an adept street samurai who is good at flying ... would it be worth it to pick up Mind Over Matter (the adept power from War!)?
I could replace my agility rolls with logic rolls (and thus combine things like electronics/mechanics/guns/some stealth stuff). There is also the adept power "Keen Wits" available for artisan way adepts, which lets me boost my logic. That would make the character mostly focused on reaction, logic, and magic (which I think is a pretty cool combination).
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Yes, that's an effective way to go. Make sure you pick up Cerebral Boosters if you do.
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Yes, that's an effective way to go. Make sure you pick up Cerebral Boosters if you do.
It's gimped the same way IPA is (1.5 per point for over natural), unfortunately
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Right, but there's a slick way to use it properly. You get Logic 5 with BP, then Logic 6 with Keen Wits - so you pay .75 PP rather than 25 BP to hardcap logic. Then you take Cerebral Boosters 3 (probably better to start with 2 at chargen and upgrade to 3 with nuyen later) to get to 9, which is your augmented max.
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Right, but there's a slick way to use it properly. You get Logic 5 with BP, then Logic 6 with Keen Wits - so you pay .75 PP rather than 25 BP to hardcap logic. Then you take Cerebral Boosters 3 (probably better to start with 2 at chargen and upgrade to 3 with nuyen later) to get to 9, which is your augmented max.
Ah, gotcha. All down to a trick in what order you take stuff.
Personally, though, I'd just go without the Booster at the start and buy a 3 from scratch, later. If it's your only 'ware it'll let you take 5 Magic at CGen for 40 BP, drop down to 4 with 'ware, then buy back up to 5. Just be sure to save up the 25 Karma so you can do it immediately. ;D
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Right, but there's a slick way to use it properly. You get Logic 5 with BP, then Logic 6 with Keen Wits - so you pay .75 PP rather than 25 BP to hardcap logic. Then you take Cerebral Boosters 3 (probably better to start with 2 at chargen and upgrade to 3 with nuyen later) to get to 9, which is your augmented max.
Ah, gotcha. All down to a trick in what order you take stuff.
Personally, though, I'd just go without the Booster at the start and buy a 3 from scratch, later. If it's your only 'ware it'll let you take 5 Magic at CGen for 40 BP, drop down to 4 with 'ware, then buy back up to 5. Just be sure to save up the 25 Karma so you can do it immediately. ;D
I'm leaning more toward this, just because it lets me grab Improved Reflexes II to start.
Mind over Matter costs 1.5, Keen Wits cost .75, and Improved Reflexes II is discounted to 1.875. Thats 4.125 total. If I took cerebral boosters to start I couldn't do that with a starting magic of 5 ... I'd have to drop Improved Reflexes down a little. The extra initiative pass is probably worth it?
Umaro -
Looking at your ghost archetype I notice you don't have any matrix programs, common use or otherwise. For my character, since he'll have a helicopter (but be manually flying it) should I be investing in things (even in a limited sense) like the electronics skill group, electronics warfare, autosofts (targeting, clearsight, etc), and common use programs? If I want to have the ability to have my helicopter fly over to me remotely (if I need it to pick me up or some such) I probably need the programs?
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So, the Ghost is not at all a rigger or pilot, and is a pure street samurai, which is why the lack of matrix stuff.
In your case: I think there are four reasonable ways to go. Keep in mind that your helicopter doesn't need to be very good at flying in order to handle basic stuff.
a) Be a decent-ish hacker on the side. This actually isn't too hard but might stretch you too thin. The more things you want to cover the more harsh and merciless you have to be about trimming the fluff. See the Generalist and the Mercenary Rigger for examples of triple-role characters. Once you have the stuff you need to be a hacker, you can also be a meh OK command rigger for no real investment and that lets you do stuff like Command-rig your copter to pick you up and the like.
b) Make your helicopter good at doing things on its own. This means upgrading its pilot, firewall, response, getting autosofts, getting an Agent to protect it from hackers, etc. This is going to be expensive and might again be more than you can afford. You cannot do this halfway - if you upgrade it so it's good at flying itself but lacks matrix defenses, it will get WTFPwnt by enemy hackers.
c) Just say no to wireless. Turn it off and fly manually. You can always turn on the wireless again if you absolutely have to for some reason. The pilot it comes with is going to be good enough to do stuff like pick you up, but not good enough to do stuff like fight on its own, and it will be wtfpwnt by anyone who knows how to hack.
d) Is there a hacker in your group? Turn the wireless off when you are in the chopper, and if you aren't in the chopper, slave it to the hacker's commlink.
Being half a hacker is worthless. You can either deal with matrix stuff or not deal with it; there's no real point in being able to suck at it.
Re: Powers, I would suggest getting a Geas on one of your powers to shave off that last little bit. Cerebral Boosters 2 is +2 logic, Keen Wits is +1. Choosing Keen Wits over Cerebral Boosters is pretty silly. My suggestion would be to either Geas your Improved Reflexes (which would knock it down to 1.25, leaving you .5 PP for other stuff), or Geas your Keen Wits (which would knock it down to .625, leaving you at exactly 4). The draw of the latter option is that if your Geas does get violated, you only lose 1 logic until you fix it, which is not as critical as your IPs.
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Right, but there's a slick way to use it properly. You get Logic 5 with BP, then Logic 6 with Keen Wits - so you pay .75 PP rather than 25 BP to hardcap logic. Then you take Cerebral Boosters 3 (probably better to start with 2 at chargen and upgrade to 3 with nuyen later) to get to 9, which is your augmented max.
Ah, gotcha. All down to a trick in what order you take stuff.
Personally, though, I'd just go without the Booster at the start and buy a 3 from scratch, later. If it's your only 'ware it'll let you take 5 Magic at CGen for 40 BP, drop down to 4 with 'ware, then buy back up to 5. Just be sure to save up the 25 Karma so you can do it immediately. ;D
Sorry, no go. Start at 5 and drop to 4 with implants and you'll have to pay 30 karma to get that 5 back. Yet more proof that implants aren't worth it, at least not to Awakened.
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Where did you get that from? I was under the impression that the magic attribute and max was always actually reduced (not just used at a lower level).
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You buy the magic rating, and reduce it from implants you're still at that rating (in this case rating 5). So to improve it back to the level it was previously, you'd have to buy the rating you would have before losing the point because of the implant, and thus have to pay 30 karma for the 6 rating you'd have been getting before.
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You buy the magic rating, and reduce it from implants you're still at that rating (in this case rating 5).
Rules quote for the "you're still at that rating," please.
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Really, that would be common sense, as otherwise is simply abuse that most GMs will smack you down for.
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It's really not common sense at all. I can't find any reference at all to still being at that rating.
It's balanced already. A starting mage has a maximum magic rating of 6. If that character starts with a magic or 5 then takes a point of ware, his magic drops to 4 and his maximum magic drops to 5. Raising his magic again puts him at 5 (which is the cap). If he then takes another point of ware he drops to four and is still at his cap (because the cap drops to four also). He can only raise his cap by initiating and then he has to raise his magic separately. So after that four, he initiates and takes another point of ware. He drops to a three but his max is four (he can now raise his magic up again). There is only so far you can go though, because if your essence hits under one you lose your magic for good and burnout.
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The rules are not explicit on whether the lowered value of Magic/Resonance is an augmented value or if it is the new natural value. In other words, if I buy Magic 5 and lose a point of Essence, is my Magic 5 (4) or just plain 4?
The distinction is important because the rule for improving attributes is that "Raising a natural attribute may raise the augmented attribute value" (p. 269, SR4A). If you favor the interpretation that your natural Magic attribute is still 5 (augmented rating 4), then raising it back to 6 (after initiating) would cost 30 karma. If you prefer the ruling that the new Magic rating is 4, then the cost to raise Magic to 5 would be 25 karma.
There is an example on page 177 that doesn't mention augmented ratings (it just says Magic is immediately reduced one point) and could be interpreted as an endorsement of the second approach. Chummer treats Magic/Resonance loss that way. I don't know of any examples of augmented Awakened characters in the book that might clarify things. That said, I think it's grey enough to be open to the GM's ruling as to what fits best at your game table.
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Except that it never actually says you're treated as having a lower magic (which would be the case if it was an augmented score) it flat out says you lose a point of magic and reduce the max by one. If you lose it, it's not sitting their smiling at you from behind some parenthesis, but gone...for good. Never coming back.
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Who knew that my little question about a smuggling character would morph into a discussion about whether the magic loss counts as permanent or not. Heheh. :)
My understanding of it (and what we use) is that its permanent, so raising the new value of 4 to 5 would cost 25 karma (instead of 30). But, that said ... would that interpretation mean that if you were to have all of your implants removed you would still be down a point of magic, even though you have no implants sucking your essence away?
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Yes, and in fact that part is explicitly stated. You can never recover magic lost from essence loss, ever.
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But, that said ... would that interpretation mean that if you were to have all of your implants removed you would still be down a point of magic, even though you have no implants sucking your essence away?
Essence loss is permanent (unless you go through a ridiculously expensive treatment) and magic loss is permanent (even if you go through said treatment). If you pull out your ware, you essence stays where it is and you have an essence hole that you can fill with new ware (US versions of the book have holes for each type (bioware or cyberware) while german versions are universal essence holes). The essence isn't so much the implant sucking you essence away, as you losing part of yourself when you have them put in.
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The point of having to pay for the higher rating is that if you don't, you'll run into the people who'll buy magic up to 2, get implants, pay 10 karma to buy it back to 2, buy more implants, rinse and repeat.
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*edit2* Modified the new character version again, got it down to 400 bp. I wanted to keep the exceptional attribute quality so I wouldn't have to pay 40 karma for it later.
And for some reason I just cannot format the thing properly ... it looks fine when I'm editing it. :(
*edit* I didn't do any of the bioware just yet ... I like the idea of buying a point of magic with karma later and then spending $ on the bioware. (Plus I'm short on cash at the moment).
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The point of having to pay for the higher rating is that if you don't, you'll run into the people who'll buy magic up to 2, get implants, pay 10 karma to buy it back to 2, buy more implants, rinse and repeat.
And the issue here is?
Player starts with a magic of 1.
Buys magic to 2
Takes one point of implants.
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/5)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/4)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/3)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and max drop by one (1/2)
Buys magic to 2
End result = Magic of 2 (which is only a step above being useless and is currently capped), 50 karma spent, and four points of ware.
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The point of having to pay for the higher rating is that if you don't, you'll run into the people who'll buy magic up to 2, get implants, pay 10 karma to buy it back to 2, buy more implants, rinse and repeat.
And the issue here is?
Player starts with a magic of 1.
Buys magic to 2
Takes one point of implants.
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/5)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/4)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and Magic max drop by one (1/3)
Buys magic to 2
Takes a point of implants
Magic and max drop by one (1/2)
Buys magic to 2
End result = Magic of 2 (which is only a step above being useless and is currently capped), 50 karma spent, and four points of ware.
Maybe useless if a mage, but if an adept, it is an abuse, giving them the best of both worlds.
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How is a magic of 2 the best of that world?
How is having practically no power starting off abuse (Magic one would mean no augmentations at creation without losing your adept ability forever. It seems like you are completely ignoring the fact that the Magic Max is lowering too, meaning that you can only do this for so long and the end result is still extremely...meh.
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Maybe useless if a mage, but if an adept, it is an abuse, giving them the best of both worlds.
They're not getting the best of Two Worlds !
Maybe they save some karma but they're paying for it dearly .They're stuck with a small MAG Attribute.
and its a long and ...arduous road because they pay so much Karma and ¥ and the MAG won't rise
It's like You're saying: >:(
"a Streetsam who gets a specialisation and Smartlink is getting the best of 2 Worlds( +4 Dice )for only 2 Karma and 500 ¥ "
HokaHey
medicineman