Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: jonathanc on <03-16-12/1347:59>
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I love Shadowrun, and have for years, but there's one thing I don't love: the initiative system. Much like HERO, Shadowrun splits turns into multiple passes, with "faster" characters gaining more actions per turn, split across those passes. I see two main problems with this:
1. It slows combat down to a crawl; every turn is actually 2-4 turns, and the player actions are additionally slowed by confusion about the passage of time....movement is listed per turn, after all, not per pass, and smoke grenade durations are measured in turns as well.
2. It makes any combat between "normals" and people with multiple passes largely irrelevant. Even if the normals go first in the round, you can always afford to abort to a full-defense, dance between their bullets, and just wait until your second pass to shoot them. And your third pass. And your fourth pass.
Does anyone else have a problem with the way initiative works in Shadowrun? And if so, how do you deal with it? Here are a few of my ideas:
- Allow groups of 'grunts' to spend one point of their Group Edge (which, as I recall, is equal to their Professionalism rating) to give all members of the group an extra initiative pass
- Eliminate extra passes and compensate people with wired reflexes by increasing the bonus to their initiative rolls and/or reaction for the purposes of dodging.
- Double the size of most enemy groups in an encounter to compensate for the inevitable first-round slaughter (I dislike this option, as it just slows down combat even more).
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Well as to number 1. There are really two issues here. How knowledgeable of the rules are they, and how long do they plan during combat.
If they are knowledgeable of the rules, I suggest the 10 second rule. It's your turn, what do you do, 10...9...8...7...you get the point. At 0 they hold their action and you move on. No arguing, no fussing, they can go if they've decided what to do after the next person's action.
If they aren't knowledgeable, do your best to get them competent so that you can start the 10 second rule. It really speeds combats along. Of course, for it to be fair you have to do the same for enemies.
As for number 2. It's kind of the entire point. Boosters are supposed to make normal goons a speedbump unless you're severely outnumbered. It's like comparing a Jedi to stormtrooper TK421. There is no challenge proposed by TK421, he's just a filler obstacle that has the possibility of alerting more threatening challenges.
Things I often do:
-Pre-roll a set of attacks for badguys (multiple DPs to account for penalties they may take).
-Roll badguy initiatives together or in groups of 3 to 4.
-In large battles, declare what some mooks are doing ahead of time.
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The pass system works fine as is. The only time that it is truly a "problem", in my opinion, is when a Killer GM finds that it's too hard for him to get his slaughter on.
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I only have a problem with it for some players having more turns than others.
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The pass system works fine as is. The only time that it is truly a "problem", in my opinion, is when a Killer GM finds that it's too hard for him to get his slaughter on.
Really? I would think a killer GM would find it easier. Most players end up with 3 passes (you can't get more than that at chargen with cyber/bio without violating the Availability 12 limitation, it's awfully expensive for Adepts, so really only Mages go that fast at chargen), while Drones and Spirits get 4 passes....and like I said, being just one pass behind the competition is a killer.
IMO, having the only meaningful combat be between super-jacked initiative monkeys is a little dull. Why even bother *having* stats for Lone Star officers when they aren't going to be any sort of challenge? Throwing them at players seems more like a waste of their time than a fun tactical challenge. I'd like to reward players who are playing "fast" characters without punishing everyone else. As it is right now, initiative-jacking 'ware/powers/spells are a sort of "invisible requirement" for being a Shadowrunner. I've seen some really disappointed new players having to wait interminably while the rest of the combat resolves around them.
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I only have a problem with it for some players having more turns than others.
This is precisely why I can't stand playing Champions.
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I have to agree with jonathanc on this one. The IP system has never been as smooth as a regular initiative system (i.e. d20). The 10 second rule is helpful, but only if all of the players are clear on what is going on (which even knowing the rules can still be an issue in a complicated fight). But, likewise, I haven't found one that is better for the Shadowrun feel.
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Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.
But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.
A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.
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Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.
But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.
A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.
Some people just try to find every way they possibly can to nitpick every system they come across for some reason. That, and some people think, for some reason, that the 'everything utterly equal' is good, whereas I personally find that to be the most dull and boring. My opinion on the matter is, if one wants complete equality among all characters, just go play the boring-as-heck D&D 4th.
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One thing I don't understand with what people say about the IP combat vs. Combat turn combat is how one would be "slower" than the other. Just because both systems use the terms "Combat Turn" is just a semantics issue. If anything, you're rolling init less often (which takes time) in the IP system but one IP is essentially a "combat turn"...it's just called something else...i.e. it's just a chance to take a turn. Now that being said, IP system does skip people entirely on certain "combat turns" and this I think is not a good idea. It's also just one more thing to keep track of ...i.e. who gets to act and who doesn't act...
I've noticed that in real time....the less numbers and trackers etc that you have to keep track of, the much better. No matter how trivial it may seem, every little thing you gotta remember becomes something hard to do when you're in the heat of a combat turn. I generally tend to forget who's got 2 IP's vs. who's got 3 IP's, especially when I am throwing more than 1 enemy at at team. Usually i mess up and just have to hand wave it and say "woops...that spirit who just hit you really should have only had 2 IP's...so i'll just remember for next turn"....things like that slow down combat or are easily forgotten.
My other gripe is that combat is again very "front loaded" and then there's all this time when 1IP characters are just frozen. Even if you give them less actions, you should at least just let them choose to take their 1 action somewhere in the middle of the combat turn. For example, I would say that you can give up your 1st IP action to transfer that to your 2nd IP or 3rd IP etc. Again, something more to keep track of, but it does resolve the "blowing your load right away" problem of the IP system. Another solution is have extra IP's translate into extra complex actions in one action phase. Then there's no more IP's.
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See, that's why when I'm running, I write down the relative stats on index cards, and put the IP big and clear on the card. That isn't a problem with the system, inca, but with your organization and prepping.
As far as 'front loading', that is a possible gripe. Personally, I don't see it as an issue, but if you wanted to deal with it, I would change things up to be more like Champions. This is NOT a simple solution, however, and would result in more bookkeeping, but you could have five passes in a combat turn. Basically, it would work out like this:
Pass: IPs that go
1: 3,4,5
2: 2,4,5
3: 1,3,5
4: 2,4,5
5: 3,4,5
Not simple, but it works. Personally, I like how it is already set up, to be honest. But you're forgetting something, inca. Yes, it sucks to be a 1IP character under the system as it stands. That isn't a side effect, but a design feature. It is supposed to suck. That is why you shell out the resources to get more IP, and why the hacker stays in the van and the combat mage tries to keep Increase Reflexes sustained on himself at all times.
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I don't think the system is the problem, it's simple and easy to understand imo. The problem in my experience is when a player "hits the pause button" and takes a long time to decide what to do.
As for NPCs you really don't have to roll initiative for the mooks, just buy successes on their initiative roll and move on. Enemies which are supposed to present more of a threat (BBG, Elite Units) go ahead and roll if you want.
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Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.
But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.
A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.
Some people just try to find every way they possibly can to nitpick every system they come across for some reason. That, and some people think, for some reason, that the 'everything utterly equal' is good, whereas I personally find that to be the most dull and boring. My opinion on the matter is, if one wants complete equality among all characters, just go play the boring-as-heck D&D 4th.
It's not a matter of making everyone equal, so much as it's a matter of keeping the perception that combat is moving along. When a player has to wait for everyone else to go 3 times before they get a turn again, that's not fun at all for them.
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If it's not fun they should have gotten IP boosters like everyone else. It's not like they aren't available to everyone.
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If they made the choice not to get initiative boosters, then that is a necessary consequence of that choice. Would you make guns do less damage because you feel bad for the person who doesn't have any armor to speak of? No! Because, unless they are something like a sapient critter like a Naga, they have options to get actual armor, and chose not to. In fact, even if they were a Naga, that is still a choice they made. This isn't happyland where everything is nice and pretty and made of stardust-covered rainbows. This is a gritty world, and if you are behind the curve then it sucks to be you, end of story.
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If it's not fun they should have gotten IP boosters like everyone else. It's not like they aren't available to everyone.
They're awfully difficult to put on a starting Technomancer without gimping his/her Resonance, for starters. Also, making IP Boosts "standard" for combat creates a pretty boring homogeneity among combat characters....all of them are chucking away 2-3 Essence on exactly the same 'ware, because without it they're irrelevant in combat. If you make an "option" so good that everyone would be a complete moron to pass on it, then it really isn't an option anymore, and people aren't really building characters....just just picking archetypes. It becomes like an MMO: sure you have a "choice" of how you build your talents/skills, but there's only one optimal spec, so half of those options functionally don't exist.
This isn't a matter of grittiness or setting - what's "grittier" about carbon-copy combat builds? Everybody is twitchy and jacked up, the only question is what gun they're shooting you with. In any other game, you could have more diverse combat match-ups, but due to the initiative system every Shadowrunner basically looks alike, if you're checking their character sheet.
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Or, and here's a novel concept, it gives characters different arenas to shine in. Does your technomancer complain about the fact that when they're hacking into the building to give the team eyes and ears, they are the only ones getting any spotlight at the moment? Do you have problems with the Face shining when they're trying to negotiate a fair wage with the Johnson? So why shouldn't the combat monsters be better at combat?
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Or, and here's a novel concept, it gives characters different arenas to shine in. Does your technomancer complain about the fact that when they're hacking into the building to give the team eyes and ears, they are the only ones getting any spotlight at the moment? Do you have problems with the Face shining when they're trying to negotiate a fair wage with the Johnson? So why shouldn't the combat monsters be better at combat?
Hacking and social interludes have rules that are oriented towards resolving quickly, so that the other players are not left waiting for long. This is not really true of combat. I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker or anything; I've been playing Shadowrun for like a decade and it's always been like this. I'm just pointing out that it is a flaw in the system that creates certain gameplay issues (extreme boredom for non-combat characters, lack of variety in character builds, relatively slow combat, and a greater amount of bookkeeping than, say, Pathfinder).
Combat monsters can be better at combat without forcing everyone else to wait half an hour between turns. This "problem" even affects Combat Monsters....if Wired Reflexes weren't a requirement for combat, you could do a lot of other stuff with that 3 Essence.
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If everyone is waiting a half hour between turns, I'd say the problem isn't the system, but the fact that you need to get your players to move quicker.
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If everyone is waiting a half hour between turns, I'd say the problem isn't the system, but the fact that you need to get your players to move quicker.
It was an exaggeration, but not by much. Say you have a TM on a crew with 5 other 'runners. Everyone else has a path to IP boost, so they've all got 3-4 passes. The TM basically has to wait 3-4 rounds between turns...assuming a minute per person, that's 15-20 minutes right there, assuming that every player resolves their turn (decision, dice-rolling, etc.) in precisely one minute.
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Unless the TM decides to do something so that he isn't being useless. Like, say, hacking into the building to own whatever security system is there, or calling up a drone or four to do some fighting for him, or dropping to full VR and attempting to hack into the other team, and screw with their AR/ware/guns/etc. Even a TM in combat has options. If they are only pointing a gun at someone and shooting, then that, again, is a choice, and there are consequences to your choices.
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Enemy team has their wireless switched off; no hacking their guns. Maybe there isn't anything worth hacking in the area. Perhaps he doesn't have his drones with him. There are a lot of circumstances that would preclude these options.
And again, setting the TM aside, what about the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of IP?
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Enemy team has their wireless switched off; no hacking their guns. Maybe there isn't anything worth hacking in the area. Perhaps he doesn't have his drones with him. There are a lot of circumstances that would preclude these options.
In that case, sometimes it just sucks to be you. That's Shadowrun.
And again, setting the TM aside, what about the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of IP?
Or the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of Agility? Or the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of armor? Or the generic nature of Mage builds due to the importance of Magic? Or the generic nature of hacker builds due to the importance of Response? Or the generic nature of Face builds due to the importance of Charisma? There are certain things that are necessary to do your job. That is a fact of life. You can wail and bemoan it all you like, but it won't change. Even if you go to some other system, combat builds will still have certain facets that are required to not suck at combat.
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No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.
Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.
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No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.
Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.
That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.
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Sometimes it seems like people won't be happy unless the Technomancer can WTFpwn the Street Sam in a firefight.
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No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.
Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.
That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.
If I came across as belligerent it wasn't personal. I have just seen this whole argument come up many times over the years, and it always seems like there's someone who wants the spotlight all the time, not saying that you do. They are the players in MMOs who cry for nerfs on other classes to make there's look better and they bring the same thing to pnp games.
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Sometimes it seems like people won't be happy unless the Technomancer can WTFpwn the Street Sam in a firefight.
Even without an IP advantage (which TMs can erase after two Submersions), this isn't likely. Any decent TM is hurting on physical stats, so either he can't dodge, can't shoot, or can't wear decent armor without massive penalties. No Sam in their right mind has the wireless on their ware active in combat, and should have some kind of investment in hacker defense if they're running a tacnet (and who isn't?)
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No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.
Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.
That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.
If I came across as belligerent it wasn't personal. I have just seen this whole argument come up many times over the years, and it always seems like there's someone who wants the spotlight all the time, not saying that you do. They are the players in MMOs who cry for nerfs on other classes to make there's look better and they bring the same thing to pnp games.
I wasn't trying to single you out. This has gone for two pages, I see no need to press the issue further. I prefer simpler mechanics so people can focus on tactics, but it's not the end of the world.
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Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.
Finally got home to check my books. SR4A p. 167:
"Drones that pilot themselves have an initiative equal to their Pilot + Response attributes and they get 3 Initiative Passes per turn."
So I guess we were both wrong on that one. I concede the point on Spirits, but I'm almost certain that some of them used to get 3 or 4 passes per turn. In any case, Spirits of Man have Innate Spell as an Optional Power, so if our fictional "Killer GM" really wanted to do his thing, he has more than enough tools....I don't think the IP system really advantages players or GMs over one another; I just think it creates a bothersome sameness and makes combat kind of weird.
I mean, if I have 1 pass, and you have 3, and I'm after you in initiative, that means I'm fast enough that you can only take one action before I do, but then after I take my action I'm so slow that you can take two more actions before I can do anything. It's kinda weird if you think about it.
But, I said I was dropping it, and I will.
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See, that's why when I'm running, I write down the relative stats on index cards, and put the IP big and clear on the card. That isn't a problem with the system, inca, but with your organization and prepping.
Index cards....hmmmm...that's not a bad idea at all!! I used to do it all with a notebook...but index cards is way better. Thanks for the idea!
The only thing I was going for was that when you're in the middle of combat, even trivial calculations take time and trip you up more than you think they would...which of course is what prepping and having an efficient system is good for, but none-the-less it is desirable to have as many things be "equal" as possible. Examples of these are grunts all having the same init or a device having all the same matrix attributes equal to device rating, etc. So I feel a system where everyone has the same number of "turns" is a little easier.
But thanks for the index cards idea, I already know how i'm gonna set them up.
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Hey, that's what this forum is for.
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With proper planning, most combats won't last past the first combat turn or two (most of my group's combats are done before the end of the first combat turn). Not all of my players are real secure feeling with the rules, so I haven't implemented the ten second rule at my table, but when it's in effect, combat can easily be as quick as other aspects of the game.
Having low IPs sucks, but it isn't impossible to compete without them, you just have to be smart. Likewise, teamwork is essential. That technomancer, for instance, might not be able to do anything in combat himself, but he could always edit his feed to highlight the enemy targets and send the feed to his buddies giving them an AR assist bonus. Likewise, a mage could easily cast Increased Reflexes on a unwired mundane to speed him along.
I don't think the Initiative boosters really impact variety that much. You have three different types of augmentations, magic, and drugs to choose from, all with multiple ratings. A 2 IP character can still compete with 3 IP characters if he needs too, he just has to be smart about it (taking cover for instance). Even if every single player takes Wired Ref. 2, that still leaves 3 points of essence to play around with, and there is a lot of variety to be had within those three points. You generally see less variation in the spells of combat mages than you'll see in those points of ware.
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It also depends on the game your GM is running. After 20 years of playing SR, I have seen it all, and played it all. If you KNOW your GM is running a combat style game, then extra IPs are a must. If it is more of a stealth/persona game, then you can get by with less.
Also, it helps to "know your role" on the team. My hacker is more likely to shoot a teammember (or himself!) then put lead in a target, do he spends his ONE ip hiding and screaming in fear. However in the 'trix, there is little he can't do, and do well!
The problem comes in when people know the GM is a combat player and they insist on playing the "twiddler" archetypes. Then they end up sitting on their hands for most of the game. (of course, the same could be said of the combat players in an espionage style game too)
As the GM it is up to you to either be straight up with the players as to what style of game you will be running, or to spend the time to examine you players characters and designing a game that includes them all at some points of the games session. That may mean you have to multitask and only "allow" combat while the TM is hacking a system, or the rigger has drones available or whatever. It can be done, I've done it.
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This (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=21998) is an alternative 4th Ed initiative system that may solve a lot of these problems. People with boosted IPs are still advantaged, but regular folks get to go more often.