Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Noctem on <03-29-12/1113:03>
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Hello gang,
I am part of a group of players who will start playing a new campaign in shadowrun this sunday. We played a one off some time ago and we enjoyed it ( though we spent 5 hours planning the mission lol ). I am currently looking at playing the "Ghost" build that UmaroVI has posted in his handy Archetypes thread. I added a few things of my own like a cyclops bike for example, nothing fancy and simply using the left over BP i had after following the build. I'm looking forward to playing it.
However, my DM has been pretty negative about the build when I showed it to him, including trying to convince me that the ballistic and impact values should be making me lose AGI, that the character is not well built because it won't do well in the streets and is way too focused on combat. Anyway it's kind of demoralizing and I wanted some input from this board so that I can relay information to him so he understands the builds inner workings. I could use some info on that myself so, win win.
I've read the tactics section and the rest of the entry for the build. However I do have some questions, especially after my DM basically shot me down haha. Is this build able to do well out of combat ? How should I play this build exactly, what kind of situations should I look for ? If anyone could give me some pointers as to how to properly play this build that would be great as well. Maybe also some pointers as to what kind of situations I should try to avoid. Anyway any help is welcome and appreciated. Thank you.
EDIT: I did some background creation for the character and figured that the forum might be able to tell me if it's decent or not haha. Also, my questions have been answered.
Description:
Noc is 5'7", has green eyes and a serious personality. She has fair skin and looks like she could use a little sunlight. She often has her hair dyed, currently pink colored. She wears glasses, though she does not actually need them (see glasses). In order to hide her eye color she wears contacts that change them to a light blue (see contacts). Noc is usually silent during meetings, though if prompted she will talk. She has a very good intuition when it comes to how best to approach things such as meets, combat, and other tactical situations. She weighs around 150 pounds and has a well trained physique, though nothing visible. On the outside, when needed, she will show a smiling woman who is out-going and cheerful.
She usually wears a business suit with either slacks or a skirt depending on the occasion. Underneath she, at all times, has a Form-fitting Full Body Suit. In addition if the situation calls for it she will add a set of Secure Tech armor. For weapons she will always carry a Yamaha Pulsar Taser and her Morrisey Elan in a concealed holster. Depending on what she is doing she will add her combat proven Ruger Thunderbolt. If the situation has a chance to become a heavy combat situation she will put her MGL-6 and/or Ingram White Knight to good use.
She is not a trusting person. She is a mercenary of sorts and does what she must in order to survive. She is hard headed and does not follow someone elses lead well. Though if the situation does not fall under her expertise, she will differ to someone else. Years of training with first the military and then the SOTF have hardened her resolve and given her a Will of steel.
Background:
She was picked up early in her military career by the Special Operations Task Force (SOTF) for advanced training in infiltration, assassination and urban combat. She was first deployed in low yield operations where her tasks were primarily infiltration and monitoring. However one such mission was compromised when the low priority asset she was tasked to follow turned out to be the real leader of a smuggling and assassination network. Her orders were immediately changed to acquiring and removing the target from play. She completed the mission by entering the targets home and firing two bullets into the man's head. From that point on she was given high priority assassination missions.
5 years later, during a mission in New York, Noc learned that a fellow SOTF operative was secretely involved with a top tier asassination network. This operative had been an ardent rival of hers over the years, the operatives codename had been Diem. However before she could relay this information to her superiors, Diem framed her. Having the choice between death and going rogue, she decided that survival was what she wanted more. She became a shadowrunner after almost two years of hiding. Having had to abandon all her resources when she left SOTF, she is currently not able to actively look for Diem.
Concept:
A Ghost. She is an extremely capable Infiltrator. She has very high training with Pistols and especially Semi-Automatic Pistols. She has solid training with Heavy Weapons as well though she has yet to focus on a particular type (will be Assault Cannons). Her Genetic Augmentation provides her with a high skill with most Firearms.
She has a Synthacardium which allows her to perform extremely well in Athletic situations even though her physique is not always suited. Her muscles do however have extensive Muscle Toning which give her an almost unnatural agility. While most of her augmentations are Bioware, she had Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers installed. Fake licenses are used for both.
Her years of military and SOTF service have given her high Cyberware and Bioware implemented into her body. She now uses it for survival. Her time with the SOTF also identified low tier contacts within various organizations and networks that she managed to use to acquire weapons, ammo and gear.
Notes: ( I used this to list current goals / quests )
Has completed 1 mission so far with the group.
Diem's current whereabouts are unknown. No known description. The files that linked Diem to the criminal organization do not have a description. They do however give a record of Diem's dealings with them. The organization is currently still in operation and supposedly have Diem's protection.
SOTF is currently hunting for Noc. The description they have of her is black hair, green eyes, tanned skin, 5'7", 140 pounds. They have her entire medical history, records on file. The SOTF has declared her a rogue agent, and has issued a kill on sight order to all agents.
Currently known as Noctem to other shadowrunners. Background is vaguely known to the group of shadowrunners she is currently with. They know she was military, they know she had a falling out. They know not to ask questions.
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Hopefully I can answer some questions.
First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.
The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.
If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.
Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.
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Thanks a lot for your quick reply UmaroVI. Maybe some more information would help with my questions as well. The group we are going to be running is composed of a human hacker, human burlesque dancer face, an AK-97 merc, maybe a troll tank cyberlimb and myself. I figured that I should play a character who is good at what the ghost covers.
I've also had a conversation with the DM and his answer was that the game would depend on the group. If the group wanted to go and do RP for 6 hours and no combat, that's how it will go but if the group wants to go do a combat mission then.. In any case he was very evasive about it. He even said that if one player wanted to go do some solo stuff then he could. Though I think that kinda goes against the "playing together" aspect of the game.
Now the face / hacker are interested in RP and can do well in a combat environment but aren't really designed for it. The hacker has no combat skills other than hacking. The face has pistols training. However the merc is combat heavy and so is the Troll.
Should I really change the character ? I like the concept behind it.
I do have another question though, in the build summary you have posted, you don't include a concealed holster or quick draw. Are those things I should look at adding ?
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I would probably then compare with the merc and the troll, and see if you can figure out what skills they have that you don't, and ask the GM to point out specifically what they are if needed.
Also, make sure you are comparing pools not ratings. Just for example, Intuition 5, Perception 1, and an Attention Coprocessor 3 is better than Intuition 3 and Perception 3, but people who aren't use to the bonus-stacking aspects of SR might think the first character is below average at perception and the second character is average.
On an unrelated note, I think your group has no awakened characters at all. If you're looking to fill a niche, I think that's the obvious one.
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The DM has banned magic users completely stating they are too complicated. So no awakened unfortunately. I'll go over the build with the DM and explain to him step by step how the character works and that I am not at a disadvantage on the "street" as he put it. He also stated that he was interested in finding out how an implant filled character would do on the "streets". sigh. Could you explain to me how detection of bioware / cyberware would work just so that I can explain it to him should the need arise. I don't really feel like dealing with the DM just saying that via a visual perception roll the security guard knows I have a Suprathyroid gland and is now calling for backup you know ? lol.
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Detecting cyberware is typically done via cyberware scanners (SR4A 262). Cyberware scanners are fairly cheap and generally detect most ware most of the time. MAD scanners can also pick up cyberware, but provides far less information (basically there's metal here!). Bioware is pretty hard to detect outside of a medical setting (Aug 125).
As for why an implant filled character is on the street, all it means that you're experienced. If the average run pays 10000Y after expenses and upkeep and you run once a month, you can almost buy everything the Ghost owns in about a two year's time or 20-24 runs. With a lucky break or two and some start up cash, you could easily do it in a year.
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so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ? I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up. I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?
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so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ? I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up. I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?
I'm surprised too. You can buy a fake license fairly cheaply. Depending on how the GM handles it, it should be Rating x 100Y per item or just 1 generic "Cyberware" license.
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so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ? I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up. I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?
I'm surprised too. You can buy a fake license fairly cheaply. Depending on how the GM handles it, it should be Rating x 100Y per item or just 1 generic "Cyberware" license.
Building in Chummer, you have to do the 'per item' version of the licenses.
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yes I did see that in the build there was just one generic license for firearms. I wasn't sure what that was about but that's a rules legal way to get a fake license for all the firearms ? Or is that up to DM ruling ?
Edit: You can just delete and manually type in what you want the license to cover, so it's possible to do in chummer. it's more a question of if the DM has to allow it or if it's a rules legal way to do it.
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Umaro uses "group" licenses because Bull has stated (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4150.msg57450#msg57450) that he prefers him that way. Since the archetypes are built with Missions in mind, Umaro went with that. However, the most RAW approach is a license for each individual piece. Thus you should go with whatever your GM says.
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ok i'll present the options to him and explain that it would streamline the licenses and maybe help make it less complicated for everyone. As for the build i thought about it and posting it seems redundant since it's a copy of the ghost entry already posted. I just added a license for each gun and each cyberware. I also added a Cyclops motorcycle since it looks awesome and I figured having a decent mode of transport could come in handy. Same for having a gun compartment, ammo carrying that kind of thing. I think we might have a van or truck or something from one of the other characters.
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Hopefully I can answer some questions.
First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.
The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.
If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.
Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.
I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?
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Hopefully I can answer some questions.
First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.
The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.
If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.
Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.
I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?
Far as I knew, cyberlimb armor was supposed to add directly at all times (no hit locations, thank God).
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Umaro's Ghost (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5-Z04bXEhuylLRumDT7tUA36rsNq0sWRdIHnQFDFxg/edit?hl=en_US%22&pli=1#) is a very well built character, but it is a character built to fulfil a very particular role: ranged combat, stealthy movement, and close-quaters buttkicking as a sideline. To put it in the very stark terms of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, the Ghost is a Striker, or is general MMO paralance he is ranged DPS.
This is the typical role of the "street samurai" in Shadowrun, but note also that Ghost, with his Charisma of 3, Etiquette 1, and no social disadvantages isn't going to be terribly bad at social interaction. Sure, you don't want him to be the one negotiating the payment with Mr. Johnson, or the guy social engineering his way past the receptionist at Tonites Target, Inc... but, if you play him as the "stong, silent type" who can stand next to the Face while he or she does his thing, he'll do fine. The ideal level of social ability for a street samurai is three BP's: Be Polite. Be Professional. Be Prepared to kill every motherfrakker you meet.
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Three BPs...i like it, +1 to you
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I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?
So it's actually a huge mess. The whole "use the limb/average the limbs" thing only apples to attributes which doesn't include armor. Thus while an enhancement, cyberlimb armor isn't an attribute and doesn't ever get averaged. With the lack of hit location rules, it's typically assumed that it stacks with overall armor and thus adds to one's "all-around" armor score like the other ware providers of armor like orthoskin and bone lacing. The strongest argument that cyberlimb armor stacks is that the lower levels of Dermal Sheath explicitly only covers a section of the body and yet is implied to provide all-around armor.
Now the argument if cyberlimb armor is too good or not likely belongs in another thread.
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Building in Chummer, you have to do the 'per item' version of the licenses.
Actually, if you click in the box you can type in whatever value you want, so you can just put in "Cyberware" or "Guns" or "Fugitive Retrieval Agent" or whatever.
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Building in Chummer, you have to do the 'per item' version of the licenses.
Actually, if you click in the box you can type in whatever value you want, so you can just put in "Cyberware" or "Guns" or "Fugitive Retrieval Agent" or whatever.
Oh. I stand corrected then. I didn't realize you could enter something not on the list given. Though it isn't a bad idea to still buy licenses like that just in case whoever you play the character under does things in that manner.
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The rule I went with for getting people Fake License: Augmentation (which is what I used for that) is that they have it if they have visible R ware - like cyberlimbs with Enhancements, for example. It's not a terrible idea to have a Fake License for the Wired Reflexes/Reaction Enhancer; since they are R and not F. Suprathyroid Gland, oddly enough, is F, but it's extremely hard to find that you have it.
Umaro's Ghost (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5-Z04bXEhuylLRumDT7tUA36rsNq0sWRdIHnQFDFxg/edit?hl=en_US%22&pli=1#) is a very well built character, but it is a character built to fulfil a very particular role: ranged combat, stealthy movement, and close-quaters buttkicking as a sideline. To put it in the very stark terms of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, the Ghost is a Striker, or is general MMO paralance he is ranged DPS.
This is the typical role of the "street samurai" in Shadowrun, but note also that Ghost, with his Charisma of 3, Etiquette 1, and no social disadvantages isn't going to be terribly bad at social interaction. Sure, you don't want him to be the one negotiating the payment with Mr. Johnson, or the guy social engineering his way past the receptionist at Tonites Target, Inc... but, if you play him as the "stong, silent type" who can stand next to the Face while he or she does his thing, he'll do fine. The ideal level of social ability for a street samurai is three BP's: Be Polite. Be Professional. Be Prepared to kill every motherfrakker you meet.
This is a pretty good summary. The Ghost isn't going to actually help with things like social skills, but won't actually cause trouble either.
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Thank you all for your comments and even the further explanations for the cyber armor stuff. I can at least bring that to my DM's attention and explain it to him. We're all kind of new to the SR scene so it's a learning experience for all of us. I'm also less worried now that my build would cause problems. I will be playing the character as a female ex special ops military type which pretty much covers the smiling chick, silently looking around who has a semi auto pistol and is ready to kill everyone in the room. Excellent ! :D
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As has been mentioned, a key trick to really "grok" skills inShadowrun is too look at the total dice pool. What I like to do is use the chart in SR4A, p. 119, as a guidline... if we assume the average person has a "3" in a relevant Atrribute and add the Skill Rating value from the chart, we get a good comparisson. A total dicepool of 5 is going to show a "solid grasp of the fundamentals, but shaky on more complex yet still routine procedures," whereas a total dicepool of 9 or 10 is "maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed ... characters." For example:
Social Example: Skill Rating 2 + Charimsa 3: First-line supervisor, door-to-door salesman.
Social Example: Skill Rating 6 + Charimsa 3: Presidents and other heads of state, CEOs.
Firearms Example: Skill Rating 2 + Agility 3: Trainee in police academy or military boot camp.
Firearms Example: Skill Rating 6 + Agility 3: Individual superstars amongst elite forces.
This means someone with a great natural apptitude (High Attribute) and minimal training (Low Skill Rank) is going to be on equal footing with a person of average talent (Modest Attribute) and a good deal of training (Middling Skill Ranks) or a person with zero aptitude (Low Attribute) and exhaustive training (High Skill).
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I actually have a question regarding the build. What exactly does the Simrig do ? I looking it up in the core rulebook under page 328 but I don't see any actual benefit from the listed text:
"An advanced version of the trode net, the simrig records simsense experience data (both physical and emotive) from the wearer. Simrigs incorporate a sim module."
Does this have to do with the contacts, glasses and micro sensors ? Also how would I use the micro sensors during play because my DM will probably ask me how these things work in combat and out of combat.
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I actually have a question regarding the build. What exactly does the Simrig do ? I looking it up in the core rulebook under page 328 but I don't see any actual benefit from the listed text[.]
The primary reason the Ghost (and most of Umaro's archetypes) are equipped with simrigs and extra sensors is tied to the benefits granted by Tactical AR Software (aka, Tacsoft) which are detailed in Unwired, p. 124-127. If your group does not use, or does not have access to, Unwired then you might be better off dropping the simrig and sensors for other gear... although, the core SR4 rulebook does suggest GMs grant bonuses to teams that akes extensive use of networked sensor feeds (TacSofts just take this optional suggestion and codify it).
The Laser Rangefinder and Motion Sensor have pretty clear applications in combat: they tell you where the baddies are so you can put bullets in them. The Radio Signal Scanner is used for detecting wireless networks, so that you can find `em so you can hack`em. If you stuck with Umaro's build, they are all skinlinked so the data will be fed directly to your field of view via the Imagelink eyewear. Think of the "HUD" that almost any first-person shooter will give you these days, your character has that in Shadowrun thanks to AR, smartlinks, and whathaveyou.
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hey thanks for your quick reply to my question hehe :) I looked up the info at the page you listed and combined with the explanation you gave, I understand it a lot better now thanks. Just to make sure I get it, could you give me a scenario example of when I would use those items ?
Edit: Also, how concealable are the Secure Tech armor pieces ? Could I wear it under the rest and not have it show ? Or should I only wear that in combat situations ?
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sorry for the double post but I've written out some character stuff and figured maybe you guys could tell me what you all think.
Description:
Noc is 5'7", has green eyes and a serious personality. She has fair skin and looks like she could use a little sunlight. She often has her hair dyed, currently pink colored. She wears glasses, though she does not actually need them (see glasses). In order to hide her eye color she wears contacts that change them to a light blue (see contacts). Noc is usually silent during meetings, though if prompted she will talk. She has a very good intuition when it comes to how best to approach things such as meets, combat, and other tactical situations. She weighs around 150 pounds and has a well trained physique, though nothing visible. On the outside, when needed, she will show a smiling woman who is out-going and cheerful.
She usually wears a business suit with either slacks or a skirt depending on the occasion. Underneath she, at all times, has a Form-fitting Full Body Suit. In addition if the situation calls for it she will add a set of Secure Tech armor. For weapons she will always carry a Yamaha Pulsar Taser and her Morrisey Elan in a concealed holster. Depending on what she is doing she will add her combat proven Ruger Thunderbolt. If the situation has a chance to become a heavy combat situation she will put her MGL-6 and/or Ingram White Knight to good use.
She is not a trusting person. She is a mercenary of sorts and does what she must in order to survive. She is hard headed and does not follow someone elses lead well. Though if the situation does not fall under her expertise, she will differ to someone else. Years of training with first the military and then the SOTF have hardened her resolve and given her a Will of steel.
Background:
She was picked up early in her military career by the Special Operations Task Force (SOTF) for advanced training in infiltration, assassination and urban combat. She was first deployed in low yield operations where her tasks were primarily infiltration and monitoring. However one such mission was compromised when the low priority asset she was tasked to follow turned out to be the real leader of a smuggling and assassination network. Her orders were immediately changed to acquiring and removing the target from play. She completed the mission by entering the targets home and firing two bullets into the man's head. From that point on she was given high priority assassination missions.
5 years later, during a mission in New York, Noc learned that a fellow SOTF operative was secretely involved with a top tier asassination network. This operative had been an ardent rival of hers over the years, the operatives codename had been Diem. However before she could relay this information to her superiors, Diem framed her. Having the choice between death and going rogue, she decided that survival was what she wanted more. She became a shadowrunner after almost two years of hiding. Having had to abandon all her resources when she left SOTF, she is currently not able to actively look for Diem.
Concept:
A Ghost. She is an extremely capable Infiltrator. She has very high training with Pistols and especially Semi-Automatic Pistols. She has solid training with Heavy Weapons as well though she has yet to focus on a particular type (will be Assault Cannons). Her Genetic Augmentation provides her with a high skill with most Firearms.
She has a Synthacardium which allows her to perform extremely well in Athletic situations even though her physique is not always suited. Her muscles do however have extensive Muscle Toning which give her an almost unnatural agility. While most of her augmentations are Bioware, she had Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers installed. Fake licenses are used for both.
Her years of military and SOTF service have given her high Cyberware and Bioware implemented into her body. She now uses it for survival. Her time with the SOTF also identified low tier contacts within various organizations and networks that she managed to use to acquire weapons, ammo and gear.
Notes: ( I used this to list current goals / quests )
Has completed 1 mission so far with the group.
Diem's current whereabouts are unknown. No known description. The files that linked Diem to the criminal organization do not have a description. They do however give a record of Diem's dealings with them. The organization is currently still in operation and supposedly have Diem's protection.
SOTF is currently hunting for Noc. The description they have of her is black hair, green eyes, tanned skin, 5'7", 140 pounds. They have her entire medical history, records on file. The SOTF has declared her a rogue agent, and has issued a kill on sight order to all agents.
Currently known as Noctem to other shadowrunners. Background is vaguely known to the group of shadowrunners she is currently with. They know she was military, they know she had a falling out. They know not to ask questions.
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Thanks to any who post about this or the questions above. :)
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hey thanks for your quick reply to my question hehe :) I looked up the info at the page you listed and combined with the explanation you gave, I understand it a lot better now thanks. Just to make sure I get it, could you give me a scenario example of when I would use those items ?
Edit: Also, how concealable are the Secure Tech armor pieces ? Could I wear it under the rest and not have it show ? Or should I only wear that in combat situations ?
The obvious example would, be, say the Motion Sensor and range modifiers. You might want to know exactly how far away you are before deciding whether to use a wide or narrow burst (based on how much range penalty you'd be taking).
SecureTech PPP comes in the form of discrete stuff that you wear under your clothing. That is indeed the idea; you should wear it all the time.
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awesome ! Thanks a lot for your help UmaroVI.
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Also, how concealable are the Secure Tech armor pieces ? Could I wear it under the rest and not have it show ? Or should I only wear that in combat situations ?
SecureTech PPP comes in the form of discrete stuff that you wear under your clothing. That is indeed the idea; you should wear it all the time.
Depending on your GM, though, you might need to buy two separate sets, one set that's worn under other pieces of gear that are listed as Clothing or Armored Clothing, and another set that is worn over gear listed solely as Armor.
They're cheap enough, though, so it's not a big deal. Not like having to buy a second Transys Cybernaut. ;)
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Depending on your GM, though, you might need to buy two separate sets, one set that's worn under other pieces of gear that are listed as Clothing or Armored Clothing, and another set that is worn over gear listed solely as Armor.
They're cheap enough, though, so it's not a big deal. Not like having to buy a second Transys Cybernaut. ;)
If that's the case, just wear a hat. Then discrete PPP pieces will automagically become wearable since they will be located beneath your hat. And since a hat is 0/0 you're fine with encumbrance.
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well the plan is to wear the full body suit, then the PPP on top of that, then the business jacket and skirt / slacks on top of that. Would that work ?
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well the plan is to wear the full body suit, then the PPP on top of that, then the business jacket and skirt / slacks on top of that. Would that work ?
Yeah, that'd work just dandy.
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well the plan is to wear the full body suit, then the PPP on top of that, then the business jacket and skirt / slacks on top of that. Would that work ?
the PPP has to be added to an Armor
its not Armor in itself
so it would be FF Fullbody & Business Combo with PPP
(because adding the Rigid PPP to the soft and flexible FFBA makes the hair on my feet crinkle )
HougH!
Medicineman
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isn't the full body an armor though ? I would certainly say it is.
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*sigh* (I sigh because If had this discussion sooooo often , just today in a different Forum :) )
Form Fitting Body armor is extremely Flexible and Taylormade. thats why it has a special encumberance Bonus
but if You add rigid Armor pieces you'd prevent the flexibility of the Formfitting Armor.
ImO PPP and FFBA don't mix succesfully
with a flexible Dance
Medicineman
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*sigh* (I sigh because If had this discussion sooooo often , just today in a different Forum :) )
Form Fitting Body armor is extremely Flexible and Taylormade. thats why it has a special encumberance Bonus
but if You add rigid Armor pieces you'd prevent the flexibility of the Formfitting Armor.
ImO PPP and FFBA don't mix succesfully
Except that, given the actual rules of the game the two mix just fine. Since PPP is available "as discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing" (AR p. 49) and its piecemeal nature means it only covers parts of the body that do not bend or flex, like shins, forearms, upper arms, and thighs... and Form-Fitting Body Armor is designed to be worn "beneath other clothing or armor." (AR p.48).
Form-Fitting Armor can be worn under other armor, without any hinderance. PPP can be worn a top that. Clothing can be worn on top of both. This is exactly how these armor systems have worked since, what, Fields of Fire?
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Some people get the "PPP adds to other armor for encumbrance purposes" confused and think it means PPP has to attach to other armor in a physical sense.
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Some people get the "PPP adds to other armor for encumbrance purposes" confused and think it means PPP has to attach to other armor in a physical sense.
Then there's the question that pops up on if PPP adds to the FFBA before or after halving for encumbrance. Personally, I could go either way.
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I could be wrong, but I think what Medicineman is talking about is that the PPP bonus doesn't add to the FFBA and then gets halved for encumbrance.
For example, if I'm wearing Full FFBA (6/2 3/1 for encumbrance), complete set of Securetech PPP (2/6), and an armor vest (6/2), my total armor is 14/12. Now the Securetech PPP gives a bonus to another piece of armor. So if it adds to the vest, my encumbrance is 11/11 since FFBA's value is halved.
But what happens if the bonus goes to the FFBA? It's now 8/8 armor. However for encumbrance, is it 5/7 (6/2 FFBA base halved to 3/1 + 2/6 from PPP) or 4/4 (6/2 base FFBA + 2/6 for 8/8 total halved to 4/4)? What happens if I include stuff like gel packs, helmets, and tactical neck insulators? It can make a very large difference in maximum encumbrance.
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I could be wrong, but I think what Medicineman is talking about is that the PPP bonus doesn't add to the FFBA and then gets halved for encumbrance.
For example, if I'm wearing Full FFBA (6/2 3/1 for encumbrance), complete set of Securetech PPP (2/6), and an armor vest (6/2), my total armor is 14/12. Now the Securetech PPP gives a bonus to another piece of armor. So if it adds to the vest, my encumbrance is 11/11 since FFBA's value is halved.
But what happens if the bonus goes to the FFBA? It's now 8/8 armor. However for encumbrance, is it 5/7 (6/2 FFBA base halved to 3/1 + 2/6 from PPP) or 4/4 (6/2 base FFBA + 2/6 for 8/8 total halved to 4/4)? What happens if I include stuff like gel packs, helmets, and tactical neck insulators? It can make a very large difference in maximum encumbrance.
That would be the ruling I was talking about where I said I could go either way on it, but it sounds like he's trying to say that if you put the PPP directly on FFBA then you losing the 'halving effect', and THAT I don't like one bit and do not in any way agree with.
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Hey question for you guys, my DM is saying that the FFBA only gives half encumbrance not 1/3 ? I checked the book and it confirms that it states half.. How are you guys getting to 1/3 ?
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Hey question for you guys, my DM is saying that the FFBA only gives half encumbrance not 1/3 ? I checked the book and it confirms that it states half.. How are you guys getting to 1/3 ?
They're not saying one-third encumbrance, they're saying the half encumbrance on full suit comes to 3 ballistic, 1 impact. I think you might just be misreading/misunderstanding, but with numbers thrown around that much, I can see it.
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could be wrong, but I think what Medicineman is talking about is that the PPP bonus doesn't add to the FFBA and then gets halved for encumbrance.
No :)
What I'm writing about is that FFBA has the bonus that you add only half the Encumberance to other armor
f.E. FF 1/2Body is 4/1 Armor Jacket is 8/6
Both together have an encumberance of a 10/6 Armor
This Bonus of 1/2 Encumberance is due to the Factor that the Armor is exrtremely flexible and Taylor made
but If You add rigid Armor Plates the FF BA isn't flexible anymore
You Could add PPP to FFBA shure
F. Example the PPP Helmet is +0/+2 a Suspensorium is +1/+1
If You add this to FFBA 6/2 you get a 7/5 armor
but this Armor won't/shouldn't get the 1/2Encumberance Bonus if added with another Armor
It would be perfectly Ok (ImO) If you have a FFBA and other armor (Armored Jacket f.E. ) that you add the PPP to the Armor Jacket
but it sounds like he's trying to say that if you put the PPP directly on FFBA then you losing the 'halving effect',
Yes thats correct :)
thats why I add the PPP always with the other Armor
My Chars often wear 2 different Armors, one being FFBA and the other a different one and If its not encumbering I might add a piece or two of PPP to the other Armor
With another quite flexible Dance
Medicineman
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could be wrong, but I think what Medicineman is talking about is that the PPP bonus doesn't add to the FFBA and then gets halved for encumbrance.
No :)
What I'm writing about is that FFBA has the bonus that you add only half the Encumberance to other armor
f.E. FF 1/2Body is 4/1 Armor Jacket is 8/6
Both together have an encumberance of a 10/6 Armor
This Bonus of 1/2 Encumberance is due to the Factor that the Armor is exrtremely flexible and Taylor made
but If You add rigid Armor Plates the FF BA isn't flexible anymore
You Could add PPP to FFBA shure
F. Example the PPP Helmet is +0/+2 a Suspensorium is +1/+1
If You add this to FFBA 6/2 you get a 7/5 armor
but this Armor won't/shouldn't get the 1/2Encumberance Bonus if added with another Armor
It would be perfectly Ok (ImO) If you have a FFBA and other armor (Armored Jacket f.E. ) that you add the PPP to the Armor Jacket
but it sounds like he's trying to say that if you put the PPP directly on FFBA then you losing the 'halving effect',
Yes thats correct :)
thats why I add the PPP always with the other Armor
My Chars often wear 2 different Armors, one being FFBA and the other a different one and If its not encumbering I might add a piece or two of PPP to the other Armor
With another quite flexible Dance
Medicineman
The rules of the game do not give distinction to the order in which you add the PPP pieces. To expect someone to do such is, in my opinion, nothing more than being too micromanaging, and is thus completely pointless to do.
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To expect someone to do such is, in my opinion, nothing more than being too micromanaging, and is thus completely pointless to do.
uuuuhhhh
I'm fighting Hartwurst (Micromanagement) vehemently Myself ;)
Its just that some Issues ....Irks me
and this PPP on FFBA is one
another is the Krav Maga Free Quick Draw for Arrows or gluing a Monowhip to Your Foot to get Reach +1 with the Martial Arts Maneuver Kick for Your Whip
My Opinion is not based by the Crunch of the Rules only by the Fluff
with a fluffy Dance
medicineman
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Okay, seriously, how is it that people are missing the fact that PPP and FFBA don't interact with each other?
You put on the suit of FFBA and get your 6/2(3/1) armor, then you put the PPP on top as completely separate articles of clothing/armor that make it 6+X/2+X(3+X/1+X). Throw standard Armored Clothing of some kind on top of that and boom, you're done.
If FFBA loses its bonus with PPP, it loses its bonus when worn with anything, making it a rather useless bonus.
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I didn't miss that... I cited the rules that say explictly that. No one in the Echo Chamber wants to listen, I guess. ::shrug::
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then you put the PPP on top as completely separate articles of clothing/armor that make it 6+X/2+X(3+X/1+X).
Then You should write to CGL so that they change the whole PPP conception.
by RAW it is a Armor Add -on (Like Helmets and Shields) that its rating is ADDED to already worn armor (thats why there is as + before the Numbers )
If FFBA loses its bonus with PPP, it loses its bonus when worn with anything, making it a rather useless bonus.
again :
PPP is not a seperate Armor its an Add-on
If You Use FFBA with PPP you don't have two different sets of Armor but only One !
with only One Dance
Medicineman
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I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?
So it's actually a huge mess. The whole "use the limb/average the limbs" thing only apples to attributes which doesn't include armor. Thus while an enhancement, cyberlimb armor isn't an attribute and doesn't ever get averaged. With the lack of hit location rules, it's typically assumed that it stacks with overall armor and thus adds to one's "all-around" armor score like the other ware providers of armor like orthoskin and bone lacing. The strongest argument that cyberlimb armor stacks is that the lower levels of Dermal Sheath explicitly only covers a section of the body and yet is implied to provide all-around armor.
Now the argument if cyberlimb armor is too good or not likely belongs in another thread.
Looking at the letter of the rules, it's clear that cyberlimb armor stacks with "worn armor", but since none of the other cyberlimb enhancements stack on top of one another (i.e. buying two arms with R3 enhancements on each doesn't give you +6; you get two arms with +3 on each). This keeps the bonus within a fairly reasonable range (maximum of 4 to ballistic and impact), instead of allowing you to pile on upwards of 16 armor with no encumbrance.
That's how I'd rule it, anyway, and I believe I'd have RAW on my side if I did so.
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then you put the PPP on top as completely separate articles of clothing/armor that make it 6+X/2+X(3+X/1+X).
Then You should write to CGL so that they change the whole PPP conception.
by RAW it is a Armor Add -on (Like Helmets and Shields) that its rating is ADDED to already worn armor (thats why there is as + before the Numbers )
So you add the PPP to the armor or armored-clothing ensemble you wear over the Formfit, not to the Formfit itself. Still doesn't mean the PPP and the FormFit have to have anything to do with each other.
And yes, unarmored clothing counts as armor, too: Clothing - 0/0
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Looking at the letter of the rules, it's clear that cyberlimb armor stacks with "worn armor", but since none of the other cyberlimb enhancements stack on top of one another (i.e. buying two arms with R3 enhancements on each doesn't give you +6; you get two arms with +3 on each). This keeps the bonus within a fairly reasonable range (maximum of 4 to ballistic and impact), instead of allowing you to pile on upwards of 16 armor with no encumbrance.
That's how I'd rule it, anyway, and I believe I'd have RAW on my side if I did so.
It will if you can prove that cyberlimb armor is an attribute. Since the description under cyberlimb enhancements refers to Physical Attribute enhancements and Armor enhancements separately, it might be hard to do so. Now you can argue if it's RAI or how you'll rule it and that's fine. But there isn't as much RAW support to be sure. To be fair, there's as much or only slightly better arguments for cyberlimb stacking everywhere. As I said before, it's a mess.
Honestly it could been cleaned up with an example or a sentence. Then again considering the cyberlimb examples given actually confuse the issue more (does the head provide protection?) that it addresses, maybe not.
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Looking at the letter of the rules, it's clear that cyberlimb armor stacks with "worn armor", but since none of the other cyberlimb enhancements stack on top of one another (i.e. buying two arms with R3 enhancements on each doesn't give you +6; you get two arms with +3 on each). This keeps the bonus within a fairly reasonable range (maximum of 4 to ballistic and impact), instead of allowing you to pile on upwards of 16 armor with no encumbrance.
That's how I'd rule it, anyway, and I believe I'd have RAW on my side if I did so.
It will if you can prove that cyberlimb armor is an attribute. Since the description under cyberlimb enhancements refers to Physical Attribute enhancements and Armor enhancements separately, it might be hard to do so. Now you can argue if it's RAI or how you'll rule it and that's fine. But there isn't as much RAW support to be sure. To be fair, there's as much or only slightly better arguments for cyberlimb stacking everywhere. As I said before, it's a mess.
Honestly it could been cleaned up with an example or a sentence. Then again considering the cyberlimb examples given actually confuse the issue more (does the head provide protection?) that it addresses, maybe not.
From a playability perspective, either assumption results in...weirdness. If it doesn't stack, then there's no point in armoring more than one limb; if it does stack, then cyberlimbs represent a fairly abusive exploitation of the armor rules.
I think a good middle-ground would be to only allow cyberlimb armor to stack with itself for the purposes of determining called shots to avoid armor; this limits the amount of sheer damage soak you're getting from the limbs, but makes buying armor on all of your limbs an insurance policy against sharpshooters.
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I think a good middle-ground would be to only allow cyberlimb armor to stack with itself for the purposes of determining called shots to avoid armor; this limits the amount of sheer damage soak you're getting from the limbs, but makes buying armor on all of your limbs an insurance policy against sharpshooters.
There are NO hit locations.
Doing this will do nothing but make cyberlimb armor completely worthless.
You either haven't read what I wrote, or haven't read the combat chapter in SR4A.
CALLED SHOTS
Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.
My idea is that if you have 4 cyberlimbs with Armor 2, you roll that armor 2 as part of your damage resistance test. But if someone tries to use a called shot on you to bypass your armor, then you stack the armor for each of the limbs, meaning that they would have to suffer a dice pool modifier of -8 (plus whatever other armor you're wearing) to ignore your armor.
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I think a good middle-ground would be to only allow cyberlimb armor to stack with itself for the purposes of determining called shots to avoid armor; this limits the amount of sheer damage soak you're getting from the limbs, but makes buying armor on all of your limbs an insurance policy against sharpshooters.
There are NO hit locations.
Doing this will do nothing but make cyberlimb armor completely worthless.
You either haven't read what I wrote, or haven't read the combat chapter in SR4A.
CALLED SHOTS
Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.
My idea is that if you have 4 cyberlimbs with Armor 2, you roll that armor 2 as part of your damage resistance test. But if someone tries to use a called shot on you to bypass your armor, then you stack the armor for each of the limbs, meaning that they would have to suffer a dice pool modifier of -8 (plus whatever other armor you're wearing) to ignore your armor.
I think you're misreading the rules here. This is not an argument for different armor values for different "hit locations" (which again do not exist in SR). It is just that you can take a penalty to remove that much armor from the target's soak pool. Anything else is micromanagement and overcomplication for little or no good reason (Note: Realism is not a good reason, as this is a game.)
Are you just willfully misreading what I type? When did I say anything about hit locations? I'm talking about allowing cyberlimb armor to stack with itself for the purposes of the called shot rules only. By RAW, there's no real reason to believe that they stack at all; every other cyberlimb enhancement doesn't. If you don't let them stack at all for anything, then having armor on more than one limb is a waste of money and capacity. If you let them stack for everything, then you end up with PCs with the durability of armored cars.
By RAW, either way is a reasonable interpretation, but both interpretations are sub-optimal, IMO. I'm suggesting a house rule that is fairly simple, doesn't add any granularity, and works within the existing called shot rules. What the hell is your problem?
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considering how much of a tangent this has become, and that it's moving the conversation away from "character creation and critique", I'd appreciate if you guys could create a new thread to continue your discussion. Thanks :)
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Ok so we had our first session yesterday. It was quite fun. I didn't shoot anyone but I did manage some infiltration and what not. We're currently investigated kidnappings of Ork women by these two humans driving an illegal reproduction of a Doc-Wagon. Plot is getting interesting :) Found a new contact who is a mechanic for vehicles. Made some cash.
One bit that I thought was funny though is when the DM tried to make me believe that the two infiltration characters of the group ( myself and the face ) couldn't open a low security maglock even though we had a maglock key in our hands. When I tried to reason with him he stated that he knew the rules and that he was "god" so I should just go with it. He further stated that he didn't want to break the flow by checking rules for 2 hours during the session. Anyway I checked the rules anyway, showed him that we could default and so on (he said we couldn't). After that I just checked the rules whenever we had a situation that I wasn't clear about automatically while the DM kept things moving. I figure the teamwork is going to be more important since everyone at the table is learning the game right now. I just busted out laughing when he stated that he was "god". Oh buddy.
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... he knew the rules and that he was "god" so I should just go with it.
Wow. You might need a different group.
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Ok so we had our first session yesterday. It was quite fun.
Snip
He further stated that he didn't want to break the flow by checking rules for 2 hours during the session.
I've been playing Shadowrun for decades, along with numerous other games, so I thought I'd just inject a bit of my expereince on this matter. Although you GM made a mistake of the rules, he was dead on with his ruling. Keeping the game moving, keeping the story consistent, and -- above all -- keeping the game fun is the primary job of the GM. I have a strict policy of never letting a rules debate last longer than five minutes during play... I encourage my players to bring things up with me after the game or between sessions (we have a e-mail mailing list for the group), or whenever. But sometimes it is more important for the GM just to declare something is "Just So" and move on.
During the "learning curve" portion of any new game, players and the GM will make mistakes. Bring it to his attention between sessions, consult forums like this one, and double-check the books. That is how you learn the mechanics. But during a game, one should almost always err on the side of fun.
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@ Cass
I think it's more that he just got defensive when I asked if I could check the rules because it didn't sound right to me. Afterwards when I would just check automatically he would turn to me and ask to see specific rules for what we were doing since I was already reading it for myself.
@ Ajax
I agree that rule debates aren't good for the flow of the game. However that's not really what this was. The GM tried to say that two characters who had invested into infiltration could not get passed a low sec maglock. That didn't sound right to me at all. He then declared that we would have to invest resources, time etc for a door that I believed we could get passed if we just took 30 seconds to look up the rule for defaulting on that skill. The real problem is that we had a the SR core book on the table and that he would not let his players look at the rule because he was "god" and knew the rule. He didn't. The whole situation lasted 2 minutes give or take. I checked the rule then and there because it's one thing if it was something obtuse or that could be interpreted by DM fiat, or if one player stated one rule and the GM stated another.. This was just the GM being defensive that I didn't think his interpretation of the situation was correct. Afterwards he would turn to me and ask me what the rules said for a situation since I was already reading it for myself.
For me, when a situation like this arrives and the character I am playing is unable to get passed something as basic as this even though i have an item designed to do it, it breaks my immersion so to speak. The GM is a good one, he just doesn't know the rules yet. And for basic stuff like this I think we should look up stuff as we go so that we can all learn at the same time and use it in situations properly. Second time we play after all. I'll be doing some research until the next game to really familiarize myself with rules that will affect my PC. Like combat, infiltration, etc.. I just hope the GM won't start debating the actual rules and create a rules debate himself lol. I'll also keep looking up rules as we go from situation to situation. An example is that our hacker was almost killed during the first session because the GM ruled some wonky stuff with hacking instead of taking 30 seconds and looking up the rule in the book. If my character died because of the GM refusing to take a look in the rule book on the table, I wouldn't be very pleased, would you ?
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Ok so we had our first session yesterday. It was quite fun.
Snip
He further stated that he didn't want to break the flow by checking rules for 2 hours during the session.
I've been playing Shadowrun for decades, along with numerous other games, so I thought I'd just inject a bit of my expereince on this matter. Although you GM made a mistake of the rules, he was dead on with his ruling. Keeping the game moving, keeping the story consistent, and -- above all -- keeping the game fun is the primary job of the GM. I have a strict policy of never letting a rules debate last longer than five minutes during play... I encourage my players to bring things up with me after the game or between sessions (we have a e-mail mailing list for the group), or whenever. But sometimes it is more important for the GM just to declare something is "Just So" and move on.
During the "learning curve" portion of any new game, players and the GM will make mistakes. Bring it to his attention between sessions, consult forums like this one, and double-check the books. That is how you learn the mechanics. But during a game, one should almost always err on the side of fun.
1) Big difference between "I need to keep the game moving and we'll come back to that later" and "I'm GOD. Don't question me". The first is well intentioned and right, the latter is a douche. The problem here is that a ruling was made without even trying to listen to the player, who made his character and would presumably have read the same rule(s). So, is keeping the game moving at the expense of one players fun worth it? I have to disagree. It wasn't the right call. As they are all learning, taking the time now to get the rules down would be beneficial to all in the long run.
2) Keyword searches make checking rules much easier. It isn't like the days of yore where you have to flip through the books anymore. :)
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I had assumed the "I am GOD!" was either the poster summarizing his GM's actual response and/or had been offered "tounge in cheek" by the GM. I agree whole heartedly that the only time the GM should be shouting Kneel before Zod! is during a particularly memorable sesion of Mutants & Masterminds. Clearly, I wasn't at the table and don't know exactly what happened.
However, he did say that the entire group is new to the system, he also said (and this, I beleive, is key) they all had fun. Sure, the GM made a bad call... I get that. I firmly beleive his players ought to bring it up with him before the next session and he should listen to their feedback. Several years ago, I wrote my Batgirl's Gamemastering Tips (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=540495#540495) for the M&M message board. I still stand by my ideas in that post, although I recognize the higher degree of "crunch" in SR4 makes it a little less applicable... but all GM's will make mistakes, that's life.
I would hate to see new players get turned off by a bad ruling from a GM, and I'd hate to see a new GM get turned off because of a bad reaction from his players. Be polite, point out the error, and have another go next weekend. ;)
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sounds like a plan Ajax :D Next weekend we will be assaulting the base of the kidnappers of ork women. We had our hacker get into their residential network without any problems. So now I'll go by the back door infiltration style, get the hacker to turn off the lights inside and then go in with some surprise ! With this character darkness inside a house is a no-issue (elf, micro sensors, etc) So I should be able to down at least one of the two, maybe even both in one full turn. I have 3 IP's after all using a pistol and simple actions I can shoot twice per IP right ? And each time I hit the target gets -1 to defending against my shots during the rest of the full turn ? From your experience, how many stick n shock bullets does it take to bring down a human civilian ? I have 22 dice + surprise + call shot as an example. I can bring one down easy right ? I just don't want to go in and get killed because i can't down the guy haha
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A good general policy: Call a shot for extra DV, shoot, and if they don't go down, shoot again. If they do, shoot someone else. Remember you get -2 for target-switching within an IP like that, so you want to call the first shot so as to spread out the to-hit penalties. You can theoretically down two people per pass, and it's pretty reasonable if they are really weak; one per pass is more typical. You should be able to drop 2 human civilians a pass, though.
It's actually that if someone gets attacked, they defend with 1 less die against the next attack. This only lasts until they act again, though; it's a relatively minor thing but good to know. If you hit someone with Stick-n-Shock and they don't go down, though, the electric damage gives them -2 to everything (and they also may have wound penalties) which is part of why it's so good.
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It's actually that if someone gets attacked, they defend with 1 less die against the next attack. This only lasts until they act again, though; it's a relatively minor thing but good to know. If you hit someone with Stick-n-Shock and they don't go down, though, the electric damage gives them -2 to everything (and they also may have wound penalties) which is part of why it's so good.
So, does the -2 stack if they manage to stay up through two or three of 'em?
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Nobody knows - there isn't a general rule about whether or not things stack with themselves and it doesn't say. Probably it stacks. It's not too relevant, since it's unlikely for people to actually take two hits and stay standing.
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Nobody knows - there isn't a general rule about whether or not things stack with themselves and it doesn't say. Probably it stacks. It's not too relevant, since it's unlikely for people to actually take two hits and stay standing.
Two words for you: "Possessed Troll."
Make that six words: "Possessed Troll With A Pain Editor"
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Ok so I have another question for you guys. The GM now warned me that it would be easy for someone using a bio scanner to find my Suprathyroid Gland and Muscle Toner 4 bioware. From the description of the "Ghost", that should not be easy. Could anyone explain to me how it would be possible to find the bioware ? He seems to be under the impression that it would be as simple as having a portable bioware scanner and just say "hey, you have some illegal stuff"... help ?
Edit : He's also saying that because of my extensive bioware / cyberware, that it's visible and that via a perception check it would be possible to see it ?
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Ok so I have another question for you guys. The GM now warned me that it would be easy for someone using a bio scanner to find my Suprathyroid Gland and Muscle Toner 4 bioware. From the description of the "Ghost", that should not be easy. Could anyone explain to me how it would be possible to find the bioware ? He seems to be under the impression that it would be as simple as having a portable bioware scanner and just say "hey, you have some illegal stuff"... help ?
Edit : He's also saying that because of my extensive bioware / cyberware, that it's visible and that via a perception check it would be possible to see it ?
I don't know your GM or your group, but it sounds to me like he's just looking for ways to screw with you. To my knowledge, bioware is rather difficult to detect. As to the 'bio scanner', I wonder where he's seeing this. I know the cyberware scanner is listed for purchase in the core book, but it specifically says it detects cyber and say nothing about detecting bio, and there is no 'bioware scanner' listed.
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that is the impression that I got as well. I think i'm going to have to have a serious talk with him about what the problem is really about. He keeps trying to paint the character in a negative light or trying to create problems that don't actually exist.. But anyway if someone has any idea what he's talking about I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me..
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that is the impression that I got as well. I think i'm going to have to have a serious talk with him about what the problem is really about. He keeps trying to paint the character in a negative light or trying to create problems that don't actually exist.. But anyway if someone has any idea what he's talking about I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me..
From the comments you've gotten on this character so far, I shudder to think what he'd say about the adept I recently posted up...
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oh that's easy, he's banned magic using characters as a whole. No adept's allowed :)
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oh that's easy, he's banned magic using characters as a whole. No adept's allowed :)
Yeah, I think I remember you saying that, but I was more talking the likely scandalized look at seeing a monster that punches at 12P and -3 AP
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hm, you know that gives me an idea that I could always give him examples of more powerful builds that eclipse the one I am using just to point out to him that I am playing something I enjoy and not something that's overpowered. sigh, i just want to play you know ? Why all the drama -_-
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A good general policy: Call a shot for extra DV, shoot, and if they don't go down, shoot again. If they do, shoot someone else. Remember you get -2 for target-switching within an IP like that, so you want to call the first shot so as to spread out the to-hit penalties.
This isn't a bad plan of action; but I prefer to go with a more traditional Mozambique Drill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill). In my first Initiative Pass, I will fire a SA pistol twice, without calling the shot. If the target is still in the fight, he gets a Take Aim + Called Shot for Extra DV. I do prefer your method with anything other than a pistol.
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i appreciate all techniques that you guys can give that are proven to be effective. Both Umaro's and Ajax's examples are rock solid for me to put to practice during sessions. If anyone can think of any other strategies / plans of actions then for sure hook me up !!! haha!
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oh that's easy, he's banned magic using characters as a whole. No adept's allowed :)
This sounds like a GM who is overwhelmed by the system and is concerned about players becoming so powerful that the game isn't challenging. This is pretty common if you're coming to Shadowrun from D&D/Pathfinder, where it is expected that a "good" encounter should result in everyone having lost about half of their HP, and/or expended a good portion of their resources (spell slots, etc.)
Shadowrun isn't built for that, because you're never more than about 12 or so boxes of damage from death and/or a seriously bad time. It doesn't help that the NPC stats that most GMs are working with are terribly underpowered and don't take advantage of even the simplest things that players would be taking advantage of (smartlinks, PPP armor, form-fitting body armor, etc.)
Umaro's archetypes are pretty well optimized, so I think you may have spooked him by showing up with dice pools larger than he's used to seeing. I think you should have a talk with this GM about what's going on here, because going back and forth on the rules is just going to turn him into an asshole GM, and you into a rules lawyer. It doesn't sound like you went with this character so you could steamroll over his adventures; you just want to have fun. Once he understand that, trusts you, and learns how to build appropriate challenges, you guys will be on the same page.
By the way, I'm curious: what do the other players in the game think of all of this? Are they optimized to a similar degree as you, or would you say you're considerably more competent, dice-pool wise?
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Shadowrun is a complex game, even the core rulebook acknowledges the "three worlds" problem that can occur due to Matrix, Astral, and "meatspace" activity all happening at the same time. Add in VR versus AR, astral perception versus astral presence verus astral manifestation, remote drones versus Command drones versus rigged drones, and plain old boots on the ground... that is a lot of activity to keep track of, even before you add in trying to remember how all of these systems work.
I think a group starting out in Shadowrun is smart to limit player options. Run a campign where everyone is operating 90% of the time in the "real world." Then ramp up the amount of decking hacking that needs to go down in the Matrix after a few sessions (The kidnapping ring is part of a larger operation!? Let's go raid their central server!). Then the GM can in toss some Magician enemies to help him learn the system (The kidnappers are evil wizards!!!111!one). With that introductory arc over, increase the build options available to players for Act II.
Not unlike going from Dungeons & Dragons with just the PHB, to Dungeons & Dragons with splatbooks. Slow and steady keeps the GM sane. Sane GMs are less likely to wonder what the stats are on a Thor Shot. ;)
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I completely agree with you that the GM is overwhelmed by the complexity of the game. You are also correct that we are a group of players coming from a long time 4th edition dnd group where the combat is a lot of up and down HP wise. I think the GM is also convinced that shadowrun is a lot more RP focused than other tabletops. In fact he's made it clear that he doesn't believe combat will be a factor in most of his sessions unless the group goes for combat. Now if that means that combat can be worked around of and unless we actively wish to have combat it won't happen that's one thing. But if he means to make me believe that combat should never happen and that all the combat mechanics / guns / armor and what not are just for show in this game, then he's not seeing what I'm seeing.
I absolutely understand that the combat in shadowrun is in no way like the combat from 4th edition dnd. Losing hit boxes is a big deal which is why there's so many ways to protect yourself from losing them. Permanent loss of an arm or hand etc..
As for the other players, the GM designed the face character and went for more of a fun rp build than actual face. But since the player has no intentions of learning the mechanics and optimizing within them there should be no problem there. It's more of a fun group activity for that player.
The hacker is took the time to read the core book from start to finish. And his character reflects that. He has a solid understanding of the rules and factored in his idea into the character. So it's an optimized build within those personal guide lines for him. He's been doing very well so far in the sessions and has been owning anything hacker related. The GM has not had any problems with this so far and relies on that player for all the hacking rules.
The tank decided not to play because it's too complicated and she didn't want to get into it.
The merc is so far a no show. We have someone else who might be coming in who is a shadowrun vet from what the GM has told us.
And I have been RPing my character as a sort of body guard for the Face character and have been going to meetings and such. I have not used my weapons at all and have instead been solidifying the characters relationships. Next session we are probably going to have combat, but I'm not actively seeking it.
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Shadowrun can be a lot of different things to each of its players; a roleplaying heavy, combat light game is a very common style of play.
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oh yeah combat light is fine, but no combat ? The way the GM talks about the game it's like combat doesn't exist, at least when he's talking to me lmao.. Maybe i should just find a different GM.
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Has he looked at the content of any of these books? ;D You do not get stats for 200+ firearms in a game that eschews combat!
But in all seriousness, my ideal level of combat in game of Shadowrun is more akin to Patriot Games or Casino Royale than it is to Equilibrium or Aliens. There are other schools of thought, naturally. You GM might be shooting more for Blade Runner.
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oh yeah combat light is fine, but no combat ? The way the GM talks about the game it's like combat doesn't exist, at least when he's talking to me lmao.. Maybe i should just find a different GM.
You may need to consider this. Is the GM a long-time friend of your's? I still think a conversation about what you're looking for in a game would go a long way. It sounds kinda new-agey ("lets talk about our feelings, as gamers..."), but IMO it's a much more effective technique than trying to force the issue by proxy with rules arguments.
If you wanted to be more subtle about it, offer to run a one-shot of the game to give the GM a chance to be a player; lead by example, show him the kind of game you'd *LIKE* to be playing in, and maybe he'll learn something. And hey, maybe going through the process of GMing the game will give you some insight into where he's coming from as well.
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In the sadly out-of-print 7th Sea RPG players were given 100 Points to build their Heroes. Then they were given "The Other 100 Points" and asked to distribute these 100 points between five different campaign themes, according to preference. I've used this system very, very successful in games as diverse as Dungeons & Dragons, Mutants and Masterminds, and even Call of Cththlu. (Hell, I've even used it to help pick the next game we'd play!) GMs should feel free to adjust the categories, but are best always allowing at least four or five categories.
Here is what a sample group's spread might look like for a game of Shadowrun, if I was behind the screen:
Current Campaign Interest
| Interest | Alice | Bob | Chris | Dawn | Eric | Frank | Mean | Variance |
| Intrigue | 35 | 25 | 30 | 25 | 20 | 20 | 26 | 34 |
| Action | 30 | 25 | 50 | 25 | 25 | 30 | 31 | 94 |
| Romance | 15 | 25 | 5 | 10 | 25 | 25 | 17.5 | 78 |
| Exploration | 10 | 25 | 10 | 30 | 10 | 20 | 17.5 | 78 |
| Military | 10 | 0 | 5 | 10 | 20 | 5 | 8 | 47 |
At first glance, it looks like there is a marked preference for Action, but it's largely because of the very high score it received from Chris. If we look at the variance, though, we see that it's actually with Intrigue that we get the most agreement (lowest variance and second highest mean) and on Military (lowest mean, second lowest variance.) Romance and Exploration are practically indistinguishable in terms of interest from the group: middling and scattered.
So Intrigue and Action are probably equally fair bets for the GM to build his campaign around, followed by Romance and Exploration. Lagging far, far behind, is any interest in Military related adventures.
If none of these players had ever played much Shadowrun, it would behoove the GM to have them go through the "The Other 100 Points" exercise before they start to design characters, that way he can steer them towards concepts that fit their individual interest (For example, Chris will probably prefer a Street Sam or Adept to a Face; Alice might really enjoy a Face or a Hacker.)
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The DM has banned magic users completely stating they are too complicated. So no awakened unfortunately. I'll go over the build with the DM and explain to him step by step how the character works and that I am not at a disadvantage on the "street" as he put it. He also stated that he was interested in finding out how an implant filled character would do on the "streets". sigh. Could you explain to me how detection of bioware / cyberware would work just so that I can explain it to him should the need arise. I don't really feel like dealing with the DM just saying that via a visual perception roll the security guard knows I have a Suprathyroid gland and is now calling for backup you know ? lol.
sounds like he wants to turn it into just cyberpunk. My recomondaiton is it sounds like you will not do well with the GM look for another.
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Hey all :)
So a bit of an update, we now have played our second session and it was quite fun. I used my infiltration to enter the house and disable the two kidnappers using the hacker to turn off the lights inside the house and then getting a surprise initiative pass to down both. I made sure to have the rules book open at the right pages for each step. Anyway it was fine. The GM asked questions which I immediately answered using the book to show him I was right. It might not sound amazing, but it was smooth and I was able to do what I wanted without the GM thinking up weird rules.
I do have a few questions for the community though, the build uses micro sensors to add layers of senses to the character. If I wear the contacts, wear the glasses, have the micro sensors turned on : Is everything on and working at all times ? As in do I have to decide to use the Radio Signal Scanner for example or does it automatically work and just feed me the information ? I know I have to make tests for specific tasks as I will describe below, but I am curious to know if it does anything else or if I only use it during the tests. In the description it mentions:
"Treat the scanner as if it were a Sniffer program (p. 234) equal to its rating; see p. 229 for rules on detecting and intercepting wireless signals."
Now on page 229 it says that I can use electronic warfare+the rating of the program or in this case the rating of the Radio Signal Scanner that I am using correct ? This is the way we did it at the table yesterday. Now of course this character is not amazing at hacking, so I am guessing that is why the build gets a rating 6 to compensate. I managed to get 6 dice total (my logic being 2 and defaulting + rating of 6 gave me 6). Is this accurate ?
The way I used it during my infiltration of the house was to roll the 6 dice, I got 2 successes which let me pinpoint where the 2 men were in the house and take them out. The GM debated a bit on the point of if I would be able to pinpoint them the way I did, but it clearly states that you can pinpoint in the description of the item itself. So he agreed that would be how it worked. So I would like to make sure we understood it correctly.
I also understand that with it I can intercept traffic via hacking+rating like a normal sniffer program. I haven't used that function yet but it could be interesting. The hacker of the group managed to help me and the GM and fill in the blanks when it came to how a sniffer program worked.
As far as changing GM's I think this is going to be more of a learning curve for everyone. The event that happened last week, I believe anyway, was just a manifestation of the frustration of learning a new system when you're used to knowing everything there is to know about one you are using. He stated that a skinlink could not be used to communicate with whatever it is involved with and instead was just for information, as if it did nothing and was just some added feature. I didn't even need to say anything to that since the guy playing the hacker jumped on it. I guess the hacker likes his skinlink ? However the point I'm trying to make is just that the GM, instead of getting defensive, just said that he must have confused something with it and we just kept on playing. So we're all learning how to work together :)
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On the Radio Signal Scanner:
Part of your commlink's job is to deal with that information and feed it into your Image Link - you should probably have Image Link on something like your glasses/goggles/contacts/etc. This is part of it belonging to a PAN. In-universe, the idea is that you have a sort of GUI set up in AR, so you see, say, radio signals overlaid onto your vision.
You should actually have had less dice than that. The roll is normally EW+Sniffer, Logic isn't involved, so you'd roll 5 dice defaulting.
You can definitely use it to figure out where people are. I don't think you can use it to target attacks (but you can use it to get within range of another sense, for example).
One thing to note is that it's easy for hackers to do stuff like that remotely. You could, for example, give your hacker access to your Radio Signal Scanner and let them then use their EW skill (which is likely better than yours) to find people for you.
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thanks for the post Umaro :) That's a great idea to let the hacker have access to my radio signal so he can do the rolls for me since his dice pool would be much bigger. That's an awesome way to create teamwork and I'm sure the hacker will feel very involved next time i decide to make use of it ^_^
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I have a question for Umaro or anyone willing to answer. The core build for the "Ghost" that Umaro has posted uses a CMT Clip and Meta Link for commlinks. Just wondering but wouldn't it be better to get something potent ? And also, the Vector Xim operating system has pretty low stats as well. Am I missing something ?
The reason why I am wondering is because of the last mission we did. We completed it and got about 8-10 karma each and 23,000 $. The DM was very impressed with us hehe... Anyway we worked for it and earned the reward I assure you. But anyway I came up with the questions based on how the hacker managed to hack into the commlinks of the guards and other things and it just seemed like I should have better protection in that department. Any suggestions ?
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I have a question for Umaro or anyone willing to answer. The core build for the "Ghost" that Umaro has posted uses a CMT Clip and Meta Link for commlinks. Just wondering but wouldn't it be better to get something potent ? And also, the Vector Xim operating system has pretty low stats as well. Am I missing something ?
The reason why I am wondering is because of the last mission we did. We completed it and got about 8-10 karma each and 23,000 $. The DM was very impressed with us hehe... Anyway we worked for it and earned the reward I assure you. But anyway I came up with the questions based on how the hacker managed to hack into the commlinks of the guards and other things and it just seemed like I should have better protection in that department. Any suggestions ?
The Meta Link/Vector Xim would likely be the one you want to use to broadcast fake SIN and whatnot while keeping your important stuff on the other one with wifi turned off and everything skinlinked. Of course, this is if your GM acts like so many people on here and continues with the stuff of ruling that every implant you have can be hacked to FUBAR you into next century.
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haha. I believe he would be one of those people, yep. I was aware of the skinlink's amazing power to get around having to use wifi for everything. That makes sense, keep the wifi turned off so that it can't access the matrix or receive outside connections that aren't directly connected to it ( via a datajack for example ) or skinlink. That should solve the problem quite effectively. However it does limit certain options. By doing that, it also stops the hacker from using my radio signal scanner for example. But anyway that's something that we can work with.
Thanks a lot for your quick reply !
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Like Noctem I am also using Umaro's Ghost for a campaign, though I made a couple changes. Change one was to change his metatype to Ork (moving the spare points around) and change was to drop the Heavy weapons skill and pick up Assault weapons so I could use Battle Rifles for sniping. Those are the only changes I have made to the character.
Since I am using Battle Rifles I chose the AM-884 from WAR!. I would like some Ideas as to what modifications I should put into the rifle to make it awesome. Any help would be most cool
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By "Assault Weapon" you mean "Automatics" right?
I would actually reconsider the AM. It has -1 more AP, but that's just not worth the numerous drawbacks in has: namely, low ammo, no innate BF, no innate RC. I would instead suggest the AVC-7.62 for this (the HVBR is usually better, but not for this because it's no-accessories thing is a nuisance for a sniping weapon)
Firing Selection Change (full auto) [1]
Barrel Extension [1]
Manual Easy Breakdown [1]
Chameleon Coating [2]
Personalized Grip [1]
Accessory: Sound Suppressor [Barrel]
Accessory: External Smartgun [Top]
Accessory: Tripod [Under]
This gives you a solid weapon with FA and 8 RC (1 innate, 1 personalized grip, 6 tripod), Sporting Rifle +10% range, silenced, chameleon coated, and breakable. The major alternative would be to fit on a built-in Sound Suppressor for an extra -2, but you'd have to yoink something that is IMO more useful.
I'd also carry a modded HVBR for pink mohawk times; you can get 10 RC on it without too much trouble.
Gas Vent 3 mod [2]
Personalized Grip mod [1]
Firing Selection Change: Full Auto [1]
Foregrip [1]
Folding Stock [1]
The 11th RC requires 6 strength or some other means of getting a last point that stacks, which you probably don't have, but it's still worth it; a long burst at -1 beats a short burst.
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I actually gave thought myself to dropping Heavy Weapons for the Battle Rifle alternative. However the thought of shooting a gyro mounted railgun with no recoil and insane range just made me go for the Heavy Weapons. Call me silly but I just like the visual candy that this gives hehe.
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Alright ! So new update for those interested. We've completed Mission 2 with all objectives successfully fulfilled. Whoo!! By finding some smart ways to resolve situations we also managed to come by a decent amount of cash. My current holdings are 30,000 nuyen. I was wondering if anyone could give me ideas on what to spend my cash on. I know there's a list of things in the Ghost build entry that Umaro posted, I guess I just want to check what's recommended at this stage of the game.
The other players are bought some Break n Entry gear, ID eraser etc.. We also came by some commlinks from some hired guards that will serve as disposable commlinks. Rating 2 in all stats, so they aren't bad either.
Any and all help is appreciated :D
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if dont have muscle replacements its a nice and cheap but essence heavy upgrade to agi and str. If essence is more of an issue muscle augmentation and toner do the same thing but use less essence and more cash.
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oh, here is the build I am currently using. It was posted by Umaro.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5-Z04bXEhuylLRumDT7tUA36rsNq0sWRdIHnQFDFxg/edit?hl=en_US%22&pli=1
I have the items it lists and I am looking for figure out what to do with the 30,000 nuyen I have now. There are suggestions listed but I figure better to ask the community :)
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I'd say it depends on what you've spent the most time doing. The biggest available areas to improve are:
Buying more heavy weapons. How much did you wind up using the LMG versus your pistols? How often were you in situations where getting a really big gun out of the van and murdering a lot of dudes was called for. Of note is the minigun option - it has the rather severe drawback of taking a Simple Action to spin up, so it's only useful if you know you are about to be in a fight, but it is incredibly good otherwise.
Buying the Gauss Rifle. It's a very versatile weapon that can do most of a sniper rifle's job (not quiet, but better at penetrating walls/armor/vehicles) and is also good long-range fire support. How often did you want to snipe/long range fire support?
Attention Coprocessor is a cheap and large upgrade to your Perception. Were you making Perception checks a lot?
If you used your Stealth group skills a lot, Reflex Recorder (Stealth) is a good buy. Ditto for the other reflex recorders, but the others are more for skills you're already perfectly good at, whereas the Intuition-based stealth skills are hard to get high ratings in.
You'll never be a really good face, but Tailored Pheremones are a relatively cheap and large bonus to social skills. Did you wind up needing to make Social rolls a lot? You might want to save up for Pheremones 3.
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thanks a lot for your reply Umaro as always.
The first mission I did end up using a sniper to take out a camera ahead of time and create an opportunity for the group to enter the grounds of the area we wanted disguised as a repair crew. The hacker intercepted the call and the face set it up. Anyway it was nice teamwork which paid off. Then we infiltrated inside the grounds and took out the stuff we needed to take out semi-covertly :p Bullets started flying when the guards spotted the troll haha.
The second mission was an investigation type mission into the disappearance of ork women. There was a decent amount of B&E, data searching and perception. Once we found the people doing it, infiltration was used to enter the building by myself and the face (go gecko tape gloves !). Once inside I made use of a mini drone that I decided to get myself, a fly spy mini drone (Is this a good drone ?). I used it to find the location of the guards and map out the patrol patterns they had. Lots of pistol fire here since ghouls made a surprise appearance and the BBEG of the place had some weird fire elemental summoning mojo. I cleared the place out with pistols with the aid of the face and hacker who decided to have fun with a chemical loaded squirt gun *lol*.
The third mission so far has been a search and rescue, we were contacted in the middle of the night to enter old tunnels that were found by a company building a research building. So far a *lot* of perception stuff inside the tunnels / cave system. Not much gun fire so far though. Though what there was has been one bullet combats since I seem to be rather good at nailing heads :D Got me some alligator teeth and talons, now all I needs a knife.
So far, it would seem the group is a lot more covert ops oriented, making noise isn't our style so far. I've been looking at the Gauss Rifle though because I've spent karma to specialize into Assault Cannons in heavy weapons and in case it would be useful, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. ;) However getting it right now would cost me pretty much all my nuyen. Is it worth it ?
I'll look into the Attention Coprocessor though, as there's been a lot of perception checks.. I'm also using karma to boost it right now so.
Since we have a good face already in the group I've asked her nicely to help me out with things that she's good at and that I am not. Like negotiations or cons haha.
From what I've described does anything jump out at anyone for something I should look into ? Or maybe a suggestion as to what to buy ?
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it never hurts to have the heavy weapons for when things go sideways
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The Gauss Rifle is worth it if you find yourself able to use it reasonably regularly. The big thing it gets is that (due to the Arsenal errata) is has AP of -half -4, as in half armor, then -4. So it punches right through things like high force spirits with ITNW and (more importantly) heavily armored vehicles that are hard to hurt with pistols.
I would, however, probably get the attention coprocessor first. It's a really good buy.
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The Gauss Rifle is worth it if you find yourself able to use it reasonably regularly. The big thing it gets is that (due to the Arsenal errata) is has AP of -half -4, as in half armor, then -4. So it punches right through things like high force spirits with ITNW and (more importantly) heavily armored vehicles that are hard to hurt with pistols.
Just for the record, a Barrett 121 firing AT ammo is pretty nasty as well, against things that have armor that's not tank-grade. However, you get more other bits of fun from Heavy Weapons... if you really don't care about 'subtle' or 'expensive', for example, emptying the belt with an ITS Gonryu firing Full Narrow bursts will turn just about anything into a crater. ;D
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ok, attention coprocessor it is ! :D
big guns later :p