Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mathias on <04-13-12/2110:33>
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Version 2.8 of the Shadowrun files for Hero Lab are now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.
This update adds a new add-on package for purchase; Runner's Companion. This package is available for $9.99, but it's also available in a bundle deal - Arsenal, Augmentation, Street Magic, Runner's Companion, and Unwired, all for 30% off the price of purchasing those packages individually.
This is phase 1 of our Runner's Companion release. It includes the Survival Tips chapter, the Metavariants and Changelings from the Advanced Character Concepts chapter, and the New Qualities, Advanced Contacts, and Advanced Lifestyles chapters.
Phase 2 will be the rest of the Advanced Character Concepts chapter - Drakes, HMHVV Infected, Sapient Critters, Shapeshifters, AIs, and Free Spirits.
Phase 3 will be the Alternative Character Creation chapter.
We're arranging the release of this book like this so that we can get as much content from this book available to our users as soon as it's completed, without making those of you who are interested in the qualities or the advanced lifestyles system wait for the sapient critters or the karmagen system to be completed. Phases 2 and 3 will be released as soon as possible.
For those of you with the PDF #2 package, Safehouses has been added as a free update to that package.
For those of you who've purchased the core bundle, a little bit of content from Unwired has been added as a preview of that package - the qualities (except for Paragon), the Full Immersion lifestyle, and the sample technomancer networks.
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When does the karma gen option fit into the runners companion time table if ever?
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When does the karma gen option fit into the runners companion time table if ever?
I'm pretty sure that's Phase 3, the "Alternative" chapter.
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That is what I'd guess as well, but character concepts sounds more fluff than rules and karmagen is an alternate rules system.
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That is what I'd guess as well, but character concepts sounds more fluff than rules and karmagen is an alternate rules system.
I actually think it was a bit of a typo, or other form of editorial error.
In Runner's Companion the part with Free Spirits, Drakes, etc is "Alternative Character Concepts", while the Karmagen rules are "Alternative Character Creation". Since they're calling Alternative Character Concepts "Advanced" Character Concepts, that pretty much leaves Karmagen as the only thing left.
Of course, I could be totally wrong.
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That is what I'd guess as well, but character concepts sounds more fluff than rules and karmagen is an alternate rules system.
I actually think it was a bit of a typo, or other form of editorial error.
In Runner's Companion the part with Free Spirits, Drakes, etc is "Alternative Character Concepts", while the Karmagen rules are "Alternative Character Creation". Since they're calling Alternative Character Concepts "Advanced" Character Concepts, that pretty much leaves Karmagen as the only thing left.
Of course, I could be totally wrong.
I've edited my original post to fix the name on the character creation chapter.
Karmagen is in "Alternative Character Creation", so it will be in phase 3 of the Runner's Companion release.
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Very happy to see this...will be updating once I can get home and log in.
AJC
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I am interested in a good character maker cause Im new to the game and dont understand it well yet. How does Hero Lab compare to Chummer? I see a lot of people talking about chummer and its free so Im wondering if Hero Lab is worth price.
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Only reason I haven't gotten this one is because after trying the demo, it wasn't worth--to me--the prices charged for everything. If the costs were a third to half what they are now, then I would probably get it.
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Okay so its too expensive then I'll just stick with chummer.
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Okay so its too expensive then I'll just stick with chummer.
You might love it, but it was too expensive for me. (I'm a notoriously cheap individual)
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Okay so its too expensive then I'll just stick with chummer.
I think it is like 30 dollars for the core(which you pick Shadowrun as your free game system), then 35 for the core book bundle,
and 20 dollars for the two PDF bundles released so far. However, if all you need is the base BBB, then the base Hero Lab with
Shadowrun as your free system is not that expensive. If your group is doing EVERYTHING in the core books, then the Core book
bundle is the only thing you really need, as the PDF bundles are all just extra stuff.
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The bundles are usually about the same price as the PDFs of the various books. Also, since it's the official product, that means they can display and use all of the notes and stats from the books, whereas free programs like Chummer have to walk a fine line of not putting too much information in the program to keep from infringing on the copyright.
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You have made the Viking happy.
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The bundles are usually about the same price as the PDFs of the various books. Also, since it's the official product, that means they can display and use all of the notes and stats from the books, whereas free programs like Chummer have to walk a fine line of not putting too much information in the program to keep from infringing on the copyright.
Well, I've got some big medical bills on the horizon just waiting to rear their ugly heads, so that's another reason I have to stick with the free that just lists page numbers from the books.
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I like buying the books though for all the stories and flavor and stuff and if the hero lab packs are the same cost its like buying the books twice which sounds too expensive for me just for a character builder.
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I just checked Drivethru RPG, and it looks like the pdfs that we include in our pdf bundles vary in cost from $4-$8. Our pdf bundles are 5 pdfs for $10, so $2 each for the Hero Lab versions of those same things. The core supplements in pdf appear to normally be $12 at Drivethru RPG, bundled for $10 each, and our bundle of the core supplement packages in HL is $35, so $7 each.
So, you're certainly not buying the books twice - much less than that.
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GRaske, why not try HL out in demo mode? You can download it from http://wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=downloads and give it a test. That'll give you a better idea of what you're purchasing before you purchase it. The only things restricted in demo mode are saving and printing (you can still see the print preview).
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I like buying the books though for all the stories and flavor and stuff and if the hero lab packs are the same cost its like buying the books twice which sounds too expensive for me just for a character builder.
It is still long time cheaper then the Chargen program used by that other company, where you have to pay monthly for their subscription, and have to log in, and have active net access to use it...
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Missed this release: HeroLab 4.0 is available, along with a MAC version also.
Regards,
AJC
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Our April newsletter has just gone out:
http://wolflair.com/index.php?context=newsletter&page=april_2012
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Mathias, I am curious: How do you guys decide a) what gets bundled and b) what gets its own, separate release?
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Thanks for the update Mathias. Nice to see that the core books will be updated and complete by the end of May. As an extension to Mara's question, it would be great to get a snap-shot of future bundles/releases in the works.
Thanks again.
AJC
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Mathias, I am curious: How do you guys decide a) what gets bundled and b) what gets its own, separate release?
If the price we'd like to charge for an item is too small, it gets bundled with other similar items. We don't want to have dozens of $2 or $3 products for sale, for example.
The assignments to pdf bundles #1 vs. #2 were chronological, based on the original release dates of those pdfs.
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As an extension to Mara's question, it would be great to get a snap-shot of future bundles/releases in the works.
Runner's Companion and Unwired are the only projects I'm worrying about right now.
It's too early in the development cycle for the remaining boks (running wild, war, attitude, spy games, 2073, etc.) to make a final decision on how we want to group those, and until that decision is final, I'd rather not make announcements based on our estimates.
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Version 2.10 of the Shadowrun files for Hero Lab are now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.
This update adds the Drakes, HMHVV infected, and sapient critter rules from Runner's Companion for all of our users who own the Runner's Companion package.
For all our users, we've added support for critters, including all the critters from the core rulebook. Those with the Augmentation package will also get the biodrone cyberware and sample biodrones from that book. To see the critters, on the configure hero form, choose "Type: Critter/Spirit", rather than the default "Type: Hero (PC)". Also, on the Vehicle tab, there's a new table: "Critters & Biodrones", which is where you have the option of purchasing any critters or biodrones that have been assigned a cost and availability.
Also for all of our users, we've added the contacts from Runner's Toolkit. These are available both as new contacts on the Social tab and as ready-to-use NPCs from the "Import Stock Hero" option on the Portfolio menu. A big thanks to one of our users, Bryan Wallbridge, for doing all the data entry for those NPCs and for giving his work to us so we could distribute it to all of you.
(A change to the Runner's Companion release plan I detailed in the first post of this thread - Runner's Companion will end up being released over four different updates, rather than three. There's still another release of material from the Advanced Character Concepts chapter coming, which will be followed by a release that contains the Alternative Character Creation chapter)
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Thanks for the info Mathias...much appreciated.
AJC
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*hmms*
OK, so...Anyone figured out where Drakes and HMHVV Infected are? Not under race or qualities that I can see...
Never mind...found it right below the race bar...
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I'm probably just being dim here, but I could use a hand...
We're playing with the optional rule from Street Magic that adepts can use a metamagic slot to learn a new power point (it's not in my Street Magic PDF, but it's in the errata (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/sm_errata_v141.pdf)...but I can't seem to make that happen. What do I need to do?
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We're playing with the optional rule from Street Magic that adepts can use a metamagic slot to learn a new power point (it's not in my Street Magic PDF, but it's in the errata (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/sm_errata_v141.pdf)...but I can't seem to make that happen. What do I need to do?
On the Personal tab, go to the Permanent Adjustments table at the bottom, and add the "Adept Power Points" adjustment, setting it to +1 (or more). Then, add the "Metamagic Powers" adjustment, setting it to -1 or more.
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Brilliant, thank you!
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Actually, one more thing: I can't find Commlink Optimisation (pg. 198, Unwired), Nonstandard Wireless Links (pg. 196, Unwired) or Simsense Accelerators (pg. 198, Unwired) anywhere :-s Am I just being dim, or are they not in there?
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I was under the impression that unwired wasn't completed yet.
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Actually, one more thing: I can't find Commlink Optimisation (pg. 198, Unwired), Nonstandard Wireless Links (pg. 196, Unwired) or Simsense Accelerators (pg. 198, Unwired) anywhere :-s Am I just being dim, or are they not in there?
All that's been added so far from Unwired is a preview (consisting of the qualities, the Full Immersion Lifestyle, and the technomancer networks) . The rest is coming soon.
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That makes lots more sense. Thank you, and sorry for the stupid question!
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That makes lots more sense. Thank you, and sorry for the stupid question!
The only stupid question is the question left unasked.
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*hmms* So, I cannot select restricted gear for the satchel powerpack for a laser...because it is part of the weapon(Same thing,
BTW, with vehicle mods like Flying Fox system and Rocket Boost)
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*hmms* So, I cannot select restricted gear for the satchel powerpack for a laser...because it is part of the weapon(Same thing, BTW, with vehicle mods like Flying Fox system and Rocket Boost)
Report it at Hero Labs forum.
http://forums.wolflair.com/index.php
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*hmms* So, I cannot select restricted gear for the satchel powerpack for a laser...because it is part of the weapon(Same thing,
BTW, with vehicle mods like Flying Fox system and Rocket Boost)
During character creation, you'll have to leave the power pack as loose ammo (the icon that looks like a bag will let you move it to the hero). Then, after locking your character for advancement, move it into the weapon. Also, this isn't one of the errors that will prevent you from locking a character for advancement, so as a workaround, you can just ignore it and switch to advancement mode, at which point the error will stop being reported.
Thanks for the note on the vehicle problem. I'll add an adjustment that you can add to a character on the Permanent Adjustments table on the Personal tab that duplicates the effects of Restricted Gear, so that you can add the adustment on your minion, and mark that piece of gear OK. That'll also help in cases where the GM rules that a single purchase of Restricted Gear covers both the gun and some ammo for it. Note to self: to make this work, I also need to make the Permanent Adjutments table show up on the Adjust tab while the Personal tab is hidden.
(As PeterSmith noted, we also have forums of our own. The benefit of posting bug reports there is that I keep a stickied thread that's just for bug reports, so its easier to notice if you're about to post a repeat of one that's already been posted, and others can see your reports, so they don't report it again).
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*tries again to register for the Hero Lab forums* Oh..wow..they fixed the captcha...so that you can READ the garbage word.
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The 2.16 release of the Hero Lab files for Shadowrun is now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.
This update adds the Priority System and Karma System alternate character creation methods from Runner's Companion, along with some bug fixes.
I wanted to give everyone who's using the Karma System with Hero Lab a heads up. We're using different costs for attribute increases and for the total karma than are listed in Runner's Companion, based on the following email exchange we had with Jason Hardy:
1) The cost of increasing an attribute with karma increased from "new rating * 3" to "new rating * 5" with the publication of the 20th anniversary edition. Does this also change the cost of an attribute when buying it in the karma system method from runner's companion? If so, should the default karma build points for the karma system go up slightly, since the attributes have increased in price?
JMH: Yes, the cost of attributes in the KarmaGen system should change from 3 times rating to 5 times rating. Here's how I do the math--going from 3 to 5 is an increase of 66.67 percent. You can spend up to half your 750 karma in KarmaGen on attributes (with the addition of the build points for metatype, but I don't think that affects this), meaning you can spend 375 on attributes. If we increase that by 66.67 percent, we get 625. We add that to the other half of the karma and we get 1,000 karma to start with. But we also should tweak the amount of karma you can spend on attributes. Instead of only being able to spend half on attributes, you should be able to spend 62.5 percent of your karma (plus the metatype adjustment) on attributes. Make sense?
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The 2.16 release of the Hero Lab files for Shadowrun is now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.
This update adds the Priority System and Karma System alternate character creation methods from Runner's Companion, along with some bug fixes.
I wanted to give everyone who's using the Karma System with Hero Lab a heads up. We're using different costs for attribute increases and for the total karma than are listed in Runner's Companion, based on the following email exchange we had with Jason Hardy:
1) The cost of increasing an attribute with karma increased from "new rating * 3" to "new rating * 5" with the publication of the 20th anniversary edition. Does this also change the cost of an attribute when buying it in the karma system method from runner's companion? If so, should the default karma build points for the karma system go up slightly, since the attributes have increased in price?
JMH: Yes, the cost of attributes in the KarmaGen system should change from 3 times rating to 5 times rating. Here's how I do the math--going from 3 to 5 is an increase of 66.67 percent. You can spend up to half your 750 karma in KarmaGen on attributes (with the addition of the build points for metatype, but I don't think that affects this), meaning you can spend 375 on attributes. If we increase that by 66.67 percent, we get 625. We add that to the other half of the karma and we get 1,000 karma to start with. But we also should tweak the amount of karma you can spend on attributes. Instead of only being able to spend half on attributes, you should be able to spend 62.5 percent of your karma (plus the metatype adjustment) on attributes. Make sense?
On the one hand... wootness at higher starting Karma for the standard. On the other hand... wow, that's some math right there.
EDIT: Is there any way you can add the ability to use the "standard" menus to pick Metamagics/Echos and raise Magic/Resonance above 6 if you Initiate/Submerge at CGen, or are we going to be stuck using the Advancement menu?
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EDIT: Is there any way you can add the ability to use the "standard" menus to pick Metamagics/Echos and raise Magic/Resonance above 6 if you Initiate/Submerge at CGen, or are we going to be stuck using the Advancement menu?
That initiation isn't changing the maximum you're allowed to set Magic to is a bug - I've added that to my to-do list.
If you're referring to metamagic purchases under the optional rule that allows you to buy metamagic with karma - yes, there does need to be a way to distinguish between the free metamagics you get with each initiation and the metamagics you've spent karma on - If it just totaled the number of metmagics you've got, subtracted the number you've gotten free, and multiplied the difference by 15 karma, then each time you initiated, your total karma spent would drop by 15, as one of the powers you've spent karma on became one of your free powers.
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Great Update, Mathias - and a welcomed surprise when I logged into Hero Lab to tool around with a character for a coming game my friends and I are starting!
Couple of things I noticed:
1) Under the Permanent Adjustment options, selecting 'Gear Build Point Limit' doesn't adjust the amount of Gear that can be purchased before it errors out. Fortunately, this one doesn't give fits when locking Character Creation.
2) When purchasing enemies, it adds the Connection and Incidence and doubles it under the enemy heading (as it should), but it then doubles THAT number when giving you the points as bonus Karma.
For example: Generic Enemy 1 with a connection of 3 and an Incidence of 3 would grant 6 BP under that system, and 12 under the Karma build. However, it's giving 24 - giving more value than the Enemy should be worth.
This is, of course, based on my understanding on how one is granted extra point by the 'Enemies' negative quality.
Also, Enemies ranks 1-25 under the BP system, meaning it should grant 1-25 BP (or 2 to 50 Karma). It's listing 25 as the maximum that can be gained. So, on the above example, if you were to turn that enemy from a 3/3 into, say, a 3/4 (which should grant 14 total points under Karma) gives 26 points, and causes an error.
3) This one may not be related to the current build - but under Advancement, when you go to add a membership to a magical group, the tooltip tells you that, in advancement mode, the group with have a 'Join' button. The only thing I see is something listing as: (Join Group), as if it might have been a placeholder.
Those three things that I noticed aside, this update as fantastic! Thanks for all the hard work going into this!
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oops...missed one.
4) Custom Negative Qualities are also reflecting their build point value in number, but granting double in Karma.
For example, I was testing how the numbers were working, so I used 'Custom' options instead of the in-book listed. Purchasing a -1 Negative Quality gave 2 Karma points.
The only reason I even bring this up is all of the other negative qualities are reflecting their proper Karmic-based value when you review them (and purchase them).
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Report it at Hero Labs forum.
http://forums.wolflair.com/index.php
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Thanks for posting that, Peter.
Don't know why I didn't go there in the first place. O.o
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Don't worry - I'm not going to ignore bug reports just because they're posted here, and not on our own forums. I do find that I prefer bug reports on our own forums - there, I can keep all the bug reports in a single thread, separated from the discussions, so that I don't miss any bugs because they're several paragraphs down in a large post, among many large posts, and because we get more bug reports there than here, keeping all the bug reports in one place reduces the number of duplicates - users can read what's already been posted and see that someone else beat them to a report, so they don't need to report it themselves.
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I tossed 'em up there, too...just in case!
Thanks again. :)
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The 2.16 release of the Hero Lab files for Shadowrun is now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.
This update adds the Priority System and Karma System alternate character creation methods from Runner's Companion, along with some bug fixes.
I wanted to give everyone who's using the Karma System with Hero Lab a heads up. We're using different costs for attribute increases and for the total karma than are listed in Runner's Companion, based on the following email exchange we had with Jason Hardy:
1) The cost of increasing an attribute with karma increased from "new rating * 3" to "new rating * 5" with the publication of the 20th anniversary edition. Does this also change the cost of an attribute when buying it in the karma system method from runner's companion? If so, should the default karma build points for the karma system go up slightly, since the attributes have increased in price?
JMH: Yes, the cost of attributes in the KarmaGen system should change from 3 times rating to 5 times rating. Here's how I do the math--going from 3 to 5 is an increase of 66.67 percent. You can spend up to half your 750 karma in KarmaGen on attributes (with the addition of the build points for metatype, but I don't think that affects this), meaning you can spend 375 on attributes. If we increase that by 66.67 percent, we get 625. We add that to the other half of the karma and we get 1,000 karma to start with. But we also should tweak the amount of karma you can spend on attributes. Instead of only being able to spend half on attributes, you should be able to spend 62.5 percent of your karma (plus the metatype adjustment) on attributes. Make sense?
This issue has been addressed by the original author several times.
But damn, interpretation hurts my brain. 1000 karma to start is OP as hell.
625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
You could build a mage with 6 magic and 6 in both drain stats, and 3 or higher in every other stat, including edge with that many karma points.
Compared to BP, that's just too much.
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625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
625 Karma at *5, will allow you about the same as the old 375 at New*3.
You could build a mage with 6 magic and 6 in both drain stats, and 3 or higher in every other stat, including edge with that many karma points.
Except you can't have two 6's.
And with the old Karmagen, you could already have a 6 Magic, 6 Will, 5 Logic, all-else-3 Human Magician:
Magic 6: 60;
Will 6: 60;
Logic 5: 42;
Edge 3: 9 (humans start with 2 for free);
Others 3: 15 each, times 6 stats, is 90;
90+9+42+60+60 = 361.
Leaving 14 points to spare (so, two of those 3's could be pushed to 4's)
Compared to BP, that's just too much.
KarmaGen doesn't compare to BP. Nor should it ever.
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625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
625 Karma at *5, will allow you about the same as the old 375 at New*3.
I understand how math works. Thank you.
Thing is, you were never meant to get 375 at New*3.
There was (unofficial because lol Runners Companion) errata to this end posted ages ago by the original author.
Math is not at issue. Balance is at issue.
And that issue was already addressed by the person who was in charge of designing it.
Except you can't have two 6's.
Sure you can. 40 karma for exceptional attribute and you've only got 320 karma left for skills. Heavens me.
It's hardly the issue that you're limited to one attribute at natural max. The issue is that HOLY CRAP YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE HIGHER ATTRIBUTES AND SKILLS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AT 1000 KARMA THAN AT 400 BP
Compared to BP, that's just too much.
KarmaGen doesn't compare to BP. Nor should it ever.
What are you talking about?
Not only does it compare, it compares objectively.
If you would like to try this out, please design a playable character with BP who, when converted to karma uses more than 1000 karma to equal that same bp value.
I managed to make a Fomori ghoul adept that actually hit 1062 karma for the equivalent of 400bp. Not playable, or reasonable, but it actually broke 1000.
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Thing is, you were never meant to get 375 at New*3.
The book - even updated - disagrees with you.
There was (unofficial because lol Runners Companion) errata to this end posted ages ago by the original author.
"Unofficial" means it's basically "one guys houserules".
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RAW is just that same guys houserules that have made it to print.
But whatever. I'm not going to bring up Ancient History here.
It/he can't change the fact that compensating for the 5* attribute change by increasing the karma amount and % is just breaking a broken thing further.
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I respectfully disagree. Increasing to 1000 and houseruling in the free knowledge pool BP gets along with making Magic, Edge and Resonance not count for the attribute limit are all required to make karma generation usable in my opinion.
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RAW is just that same guys houserules that have made it to print.
Go write your own system, then.
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Math is not at issue. Balance is at issue.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but both are issues that the game designer needs to address.
I believe I'd said this before, but for anyone who missed it, here's the dilly-o. When Runner's Companion was written it did not receive all of the developer attention and playtesting it needed (this was before Jason was line developer, for anyone keeping count), and it was also in development (like the original PACKS (http://www.scribd.com/doc/46569403/PACKS-Platinum)) in the period when SR4A was in-the-works but not-out-yet. So many of the rules - and I take a large share of the blame - are not as polished as they should be, some are fundamentally flawed (*cough* Infected) and others have significant errors, both mathematical and balance-wise.
KarmaGen is okay, but the original point totals were intended for Attributes x 5, but the change in attribute cost got lost in the muddle. There were some deliberate design limitations in the initial draft which were nice in my head but didn't work out balance-wise on the table (like no metatype cost) or proved very unpopular (lumping Magic in with the other attributes, eliminating free skill points). These design limitations were made to inspire the creation of more detailed characters; the extra level of point-allocation was to make up for any loss of raw power (mainly from higher attributes), and partially offset by a much larger number of low-level skills available. But, I fucked up the attribute point cost, and the lack of metatype cost was a mechanical error on my part that disadvantaged human characters. Some time before I parted ways with Shadowrun I sent the German crew my errata for RC, which they incorporated into their book. That errata was never incorporated into the English edition while I was with SR, but for comparison, here it is minus the chargen example:
p.41 Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”
p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”
p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”
p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”
So as far as that goes, mea culpa. Lesson learned about the need for playtesting, listening to other people, and checking your math. Sorry for any problems.
Past that, I have no idea what has been done with KarmaGen or why.
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