Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Nycidian Grey on <04-15-12/2224:22>
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So after reading a thread here I came up with an idea for a campaign which I will eventually run although I have a feeling its not going to be very soon.
However, if I'm going to be running a game I want to make some specific rules to allow for character concepts that the rules are not friendly towards, things that because of the rules become overly complicated to play, too powerful (meaning they are frowned upon or just not allowed) or simply not viable.
What I'm looking for is feedback on things you have wanted to play but just don't seem to work well in SR.
Examples:
Technomancer Rigger
Because most of the rules involving technomacy is based around the matrix often to make a viable rigger technomancer you have to be part technomancer part non technomancer. for example you can't learn complex forms for autosofts meaning you drones either suck or you have to buy programs which seems kind of odd for a technomancer to be doing. Another example is widgets, widgets have very little use for a rigger about as much as a widget would for a street sam.
Possession Mages
I haven't looked into this a whole lot but from what I've seen posted on these forums they are overpowered in some fashion. The idea of it sounds really cool though and perfectly fits with voodoun so If it is over powered when I do some looking into it I would rather modify it a bit and make it playable than to dis-allow it.
If you know of anything in SR like the above that just isn't all that playable in a standard game please post what it is and a least a little bit about what makes it hard to use in games.
Your help is appreciated.
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Technomancer Rigger - If you're jumped into a drone, you wouldn't use autosofts anyways. And if you're not, a machine sprite does the job nicely. Or you can just buy autosofts. Don't see any need for a change, honestly.
Possession Mages - It can be powerful, but isn't any more powerful than a regular mage, IMO. Instead of having two entities on the field of battle, as with a normal mage, you either give up your own actions, as the spirit possesses you, or you have to find a vessel for it, which it must then succeed on a test to actually possess. If it is possessing you, it essentially gives you a 'toggle' type character, switching back and forth between spellcaster and street samurai, at least until you get some Initiation done.
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Technomancer Rigger - If you're jumped into a drone, you wouldn't use autosofts anyways. And if you're not, a machine sprite does the job nicely. Or you can just buy autosofts. Don't see any need for a change, honestly.
Actually, they forgot to give the Machine Sprites the actual ability to jump into Drones. Everything in the rules says they meant Machine Sprites to be able to do it, but they never actually gave them the mechanics to get the job done.
In any case, here's what I'd recommend:
House Rule #1: Give Machine Sprites the Override (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6255.0) power, which I actually formally wrote up back in February. Essentially codifying how they do their jobs.
House Rule #2: Count each tasked objective as a single Service, allowing on-the-fly "tweaks" to how the task is carried out at no charge. For example, "Take out Group X" is a Service. If you have to delay the attack for some reason, getting the Sprite to hold off and then attack after the complication is cleared doesn't cost you 2 more Services.
House Rule #3: Allow for Ally Sprites... start with the Ally Spirit rules from Street Magic and tweak the Karma costs down, since a permanently bound Sprite is somewhat less useful than a permanently bound Spirit.
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Possession Mages
I haven't looked into this a whole lot but from what I've seen posted on these forums they are overpowered in some fashion. The idea of it sounds really cool though and perfectly fits with voodoun so If it is over powered when I do some looking into it I would rather modify it a bit and make it playable than to dis-allow it.
While all mages have the extremely powerful "summon big spirit and win" option, possession mages have two routes to power normally not available to materialization mages. The first is most common "broken" possession mage build of being an mystic adept with punching powers, get possessed, and punch harder while on fire. It can be hideously effective but so can a HVBR.
The second is a heavily cybered mage who summons the biggest spirit of man he can to possess himself. This raises his magic attribute so now he can run around casting spells like a normal starting mage (or possibly much better). However, he also is extremely tough due to all the defensive ware he has. Basically he's the best parts of being Robocop and Gandalf rolled into one character.
You can keep an eye out for both builds and things should fairly alright. One thing to note is that being possessed isn't subtle. So if you're running around growing, people might notice and care. It's basically the same if you had the spirit follow you around materialized which is likely not a great idea in all cases.
To get the most out of possession, you need the Channeling metamagic but that's fairly cheap to get after 2-3 runs so it isn't too much of a drawback.
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One thing to keep in mind is that Possession does not anywhere state that it allows stats to go over the augmented max/max of the person. Tsuzua covered the basics, but it's not really a huge issue most of the time. The spirits are, in general, not as powerful as a normal spirit and take control of the person's body away (without channeling at least).
I don't think that having a spirit possess you would raise your magic over your maximum (6+initiations-essenceloss).
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Having a spirit possess you doesn't affect your magic, edge, or mental abilities at all. A spirit possessing the mage who summoned it would use its own mental ability scores, or that of the host, whichever is lowest, I believe. And it would use its own magic and edge to deal with its powers. If the mage has channeling, he would use his own magic and edge, not the spirit's.
Summoning powerful spirits, whether it is a possession or normal tradition, is going to skew the odds heavily in your favor. That's just the nature of mages. However, the difference between the two is that with a normal tradition, you have two entities on the field (meaning yet another target to draw fire) taking two sets of actions according to their initiative. A mage summons a fire spirit, and then the mage can lightning bolt someone while the fire spirit flamethrowers the same guy, or someone else. With a possession tradition, a mage who has that fire spirit possess himself (even with Channeling) only has one entity on the field (albeit one that is largely immune to bullets) and only one set of actions. He can lightning bolt someone, or flamethrower them, but not both, and not at two different targets. Both are powerful, but both have weak spots and consume resources.
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Of course there is always attempting to possess other people. It's risky because of the, for lack of a better term, cooldown on attempts, but turning an enemy into a very very capable ally is always a good move when it works.
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Having a spirit possess you doesn't affect your magic, edge, or mental abilities at all. A spirit possessing the mage who summoned it would use its own mental ability scores, or that of the host, whichever is lowest, I believe. And it would use its own magic and edge to deal with its powers. If the mage has channeling, he would use his own magic and edge, not the spirit's.
This is entirely wrong. Street Magic 102. You use the spirit's mental and special attributes for everything. Channeling changes this so you use the lower mental attribute to defend against Mana spells or powers, but otherwise doesn't change how it works.
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Apologies. Had forgotten what page that was on.
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Yeah it's little know effect of possession that most don't realize. Personally I think it's more broken of the options. Once you're channeling, you also can cast with the spirit's spellcasting which can get WTFcrazy.
However in the end, high force spirits are amazingly powerful materialized or possessing. If you don't generally have a spirit issue in your games and you watch out for the more crazy possession builds, you'll be good.
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I guess maybe I should have written my original post a bit differently.
I'm not overly interested in the two examples I brought up I'm more interested if anyone has run into other problematic character types.
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Uhm...I don't see where it says the mage gets to use the spirits Magic/Edge anywhere. I see where the Spirit gets to use it's mental stats, special stats, and the vessels physical+force (up to augmented cap), but to my knowledge the mage doesn't get access to anything new unless I'm completely missing it somewhere.
Without channeling, the mage is trapped in his body with no direct control, with channeling he has control, but nothing states he gains the spirits stats that I can find.
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Doesn't one of the books have example NPC possession mages that go way past augmented caps? I thought that was the reason the tradition was seen as broken.
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Uhm...I don't see where it says the mage gets to use the spirits Magic/Edge anywhere. I see where the Spirit gets to use it's mental stats, special stats, and the vessels physical+force (up to augmented cap), but to my knowledge the mage doesn't get access to anything new unless I'm completely missing it somewhere.
Without channeling, the mage is trapped in his body with no direct control, with channeling he has control, but nothing states he gains the spirits stats that I can find.
It's the passage:
Living Vessels:
If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes. While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a pos -sessed technomancer cannot access Resonance), with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the spirit’s normal Initiative Passes).
That passage is clearly talking about the statistics of the living vessels while possessed. So if you're possessed by a spirit, you have its magic and not your own. Now I'm not entirely sure if you can spend a spirit's edge points or not, but you can use its magic just fine for tests.
You do need Channeling for this to work. However, that's at most 13 karma which is 2-3 runs. Until then, you're "only" an augmented mage. You can also self-possess for spirit fun times for the time being. A mage can order around a spirit he summoned while it possesses him (SM 103). It's even heavily suggested that the GM lets you roleplay the spirit in the same sidebar.
I'm not overly interested in the two examples I brought up I'm more interested if anyone has run into other problematic character types.
As for other character types, there is the unaugmented adept. He's got several problems. The first is that his "keeping up with Joneses" powers like Improved Attribute and Improved Reflexes are over-priced. Thus he's strongly tempted to get ware from that angle.
Simply discounting the powers don't help as well as you think since his power list is overbalanced. Thus augmented adepts can buy all the worthwhile powers cheaply and then load on the good ware if you merely decrease PP prices. This problem plagues the otherwise worthwhile "PP instead of Metamagic" optional rule. The best way would to fix the adept powers and remove ratings, just have them scale by magic rating. Thus adepts are encouraged to have a high magic just for its own sake like mages.
There's also the Jumped in Rigger. He's big issue is that he's tied to a vehicle's attributes. He's got to increase his vehicle's response to 6 to keep up with the hot simming command rigger hella cheap Command 6 program. A command rigger can take any old drone of the street and rock while a jumped in rigger needs to carefully hand out his Response 6 chips. The Command Rigger can also focus on various options that improve one matrix action. Thus with optimization (command), codeslinger (Control Device) the Command Rigger gets an additional +3 to all rolls. The Command Rigger also has the advantage of being able to walk around while AR command rigging (at -2 dice). The Command Rigger also doesn't get hurt if the vehicle gets blow up either.
The Jumped in Rigger has some advantages. The Control Rig helps, but the big one is immunity to hacking and spoofing. Really he just needs dice pool increases. Allowing the Control Rig to apply to all tests while jumped in helps a great deal. Letting the Control Rig Boosters do the same is also a good idea. Letting the Jumped in Rigger use either the vehicle's Response or his persona's helps a great deal as well.
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Letting the Jumped in Rigger use either the vehicle's Response or his persona's helps a great deal as well.
Seems to me that this would be what would be intended anyway with the normal response and such of the vehicle just being for the purposes of the pilot program and any autosoft programs. Haven't looked into it too much, admittedly, but it would seem unnecessarily antagonistic to the rigger's player to rule the other way in my opinion.
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Seems to me that this would be what would be intended anyway with the normal response and such of the vehicle just being for the purposes of the pilot program and any autosoft programs. Haven't looked into it too much, admittedly, but it would seem unnecessarily antagonistic to the rigger's player to rule the other way in my opinion.
I agree. But that's the way it works RAW:
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).
It does help the pain a bit since a lot of drones have device rating 5 because they have military in their description somewhere. But that's small condolences when the command rigger has command 6 all the time.
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Seems to me that this would be what would be intended anyway with the normal response and such of the vehicle just being for the purposes of the pilot program and any autosoft programs. Haven't looked into it too much, admittedly, but it would seem unnecessarily antagonistic to the rigger's player to rule the other way in my opinion.
I agree. But that's the way it works RAW:
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).
It does help the pain a bit since a lot of drones have device rating 5 because they have military in their description somewhere. But that's small condolences when the command rigger has command 6 all the time.
If someone interprets in that manner, then there's no point in owning a commlink other than the obligatory spare for communication and fake SINs. Might as well just upgrade the stuff on the vehicle and load all your programs there, but it's well known that one needs a good commlink to be a rigger, so that speaks toward the intent. The other interpretation would be little more than an overly literal reading in violation of intent.
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Doesn't one of the books have example NPC possession mages that go way past augmented caps? I thought that was the reason the tradition was seen as broken.
Ghost Cartels has a spirit possession with the stats above the augmented max, but that is not anywhere close to the most blatant disregard of the rules in that book.
Nothing ever actually states that Possession can take you over, and the augmented caps are the maximum that cyber/bio or magic can take you to. Being possessed is, without a doubt, magical in nature.
The only thing I've seen really that can ignore augmented max is the Strength Enhancement on Military Armor.
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Nothing ever actually states that Possession can take you over, and the augmented caps are the maximum that cyber/bio or magic can take you to. Being possessed is, without a doubt, magical in nature.
I can see the other side of the argument, though. Essentially, it goes like this:
When you're possessed you're no longer the one in control of your character. That, therefore, means that it's not you getting a bonus to your stats, it's the Spirit wearing you like an Edgar-suit to enter the physical world, thus getting a boost to it's stats as the physical structure of the vessel is supplementing its Stat = Force base ratings... and there's no such thing as an Augmented Maximum for a Spirit.
That would mean there's no hard-cap when using basic Possession, but a mage that's Channeling still has the caps in place.
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Okay, back to the OPs question.
Picture an elegantly constructed, carefully balanced house of cards. Each card rests on other cards, and each supports other cards. That isn't Shadowrun.
Now picture a Jenga tower made by about two dozen people not working together. Some of them worked on it at different times, some of them actively tried to sabotage what the others were doing, occasionally a few people tried to remake the entire thing bit-by-bit, but at no point did anyone have a master plan or have any clue what anyone else was building. This is Shadowrun.
If you want a balanced game, you aren't going to get it here. The best you can shoot for is to watch out for some of the more broken things that you can avoid just by spot-banning them without having to rebalance entire subsystems.
Things you should just ban:
-Cyberhands and Cyberfeet with Armor Enhancement
1 essence for 12 armor? YES PLEASE.
-Emotitoys and Empathy Software
Trivial amounts of money for +5 to all my social skills? YES PLZ. It basically adds +5 to everyone's social skills at the start, and +6 a bit later when people can get response 6 without Restricted Gear. It also has the hilarious side effect of making technomancers really good faces as a side effect of doing what they wanted to do anyways and spending all of 6 points.
-Multiple Grenades rules from WAR!
Did you know you can blow up a main battle tank by taping 15 frag grenades together?
-Iron Will (Attitude)
Could work any of three or four different ways, all of them broken.
Things you need to change:
The Channeling metamagic causes the mage to use their own mental and special ability scores when using their own skills and powers. The spirit may still use its mental and special ability scores when commanded to act by expending services.
Other than that, Possession mages aren't actually better than Materialization mages, just different and good at different things. Two often-forgotten rules: you can't exceed augmented ability score maximums with Possession, and being possessed is visible and obvious.
Technomancer riggers are really good, just don't jump in and don't use autonomous drones. Use Command (which you can easily jack through the roof), and Machine Sprites (remember that they use their own stats even when in a node that doesn't support them, ie, they get to use their own Response when piloting). There is a bit of oddity here which is that the rules don't actually clearly state how sprites piloting vehicles is meant to work other than explaining that they work like agents except where otherwise noted. The way it is clearly meant to work is that they work like a Pilot program.
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When you're possessed you're no longer the one in control of your character. That, therefore, means that it's not you getting a bonus to your stats, it's the Spirit wearing you like an Edgar-suit to enter the physical world, thus getting a boost to it's stats as the physical structure of the vessel is supplementing its Stat = Force base ratings... and there's no such thing as an Augmented Maximum for a Spirit.
When possessed there is only one creature (the spirit in your body) unless you have channeling. Your body is considered the vessel. The spirits force is added to the vessel's attributes. The vessel (your body) has augmented maximums.
It could work that way, if it were worded that way, but it is specifically not worded the way you described.
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When you're possessed you're no longer the one in control of your character. That, therefore, means that it's not you getting a bonus to your stats, it's the Spirit wearing you like an Edgar-suit to enter the physical world, thus getting a boost to it's stats as the physical structure of the vessel is supplementing its Stat = Force base ratings... and there's no such thing as an Augmented Maximum for a Spirit.
When possessed there is only one creature (the spirit in your body) unless you have channeling. Your body is considered the vessel. The spirits force is added to the vessel's attributes. The vessel (your body) has augmented maximums.
It could work that way, if it were worded that way, but it is specifically not worded the way you described.
But is the physical body still considered your character? And is there still a physical cap when a spirit (Shedim or otherwise) possesses a corpse?
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When you're possessed you're no longer the one in control of your character. That, therefore, means that it's not you getting a bonus to your stats, it's the Spirit wearing you like an Edgar-suit to enter the physical world, thus getting a boost to it's stats as the physical structure of the vessel is supplementing its Stat = Force base ratings... and there's no such thing as an Augmented Maximum for a Spirit.
When possessed there is only one creature (the spirit in your body) unless you have channeling. Your body is considered the vessel. The spirits force is added to the vessel's attributes. The vessel (your body) has augmented maximums.
It could work that way, if it were worded that way, but it is specifically not worded the way you described.
But is the physical body still considered your character? And is there still a physical cap when a spirit (Shedim or otherwise) possesses a corpse?
It doesn't have anything to do with it being your character or not. It has to do with the limitations of the meat itself. A living vessel can only be pushed so far. The augmented max is the limit of how far that vessel can be pushed.
And yes, there is a physical cap when a spirit possesses a corpse. And that cap goes down by one for every week the spirit possesses the corpse, because of decay.
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It doesn't have anything to do with it being your character or not. It has to do with the limitations of the meat itself. A living vessel can only be pushed so far. The augmented max is the limit of how far that vessel can be pushed.
And yes, there is a physical cap when a spirit possesses a corpse. And that cap goes down by one for every week the spirit possesses the corpse, because of decay.
Coolage. Just wanted to be sure the idea was being applied evenly.
Would've been rather silly to shoot the vessel in the head and make the Spirit stronger, but there are some rules that seem to border on that. ;)
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On Empathy Software, really it isn't broken or anything if used the way I feel it was intended which is as a 'fix' for the borked up way social skill resistance works--more like a small patch really unless you combine the program with the toy, as it would give a way for the non-Face characters to stand at least a small chance of resisting or be able to actually be of assistance in the negotiation phase--assuming the GM actually allows the skill to be rolled at all.
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On Empathy Software, really it isn't broken or anything if used the way I feel it was intended which is as a 'fix' for the borked up way social skill resistance works--more like a small patch really unless you combine the program with the toy, as it would give a way for the non-Face characters to stand at least a small chance of resisting or be able to actually be of assistance in the negotiation phase--assuming the GM actually allows the skill to be rolled at all.
The big problem is that faces can use it just as well. Let's say there's a Charisma 5 face with Influence 4 and Tailored Pheromones 3 going against a Charisma 2 street samurai. That's 12 dice versus 1 die for a 97% chance of success (1 net hit or more) on the face's part. Both sides get Empathy 6 software. That's 18 dice versus 7 dice for a 91% chance of success for the face. While that's better, I wouldn't really call it much help. People without Empathy software just have their pants conned off. It doesn't really change the balance of power expect adds a new class of have-nots (particular among NPCs who are already pretty weak).
There are some advantages to using it particularly for low social skill characters. It does help the charisma 2 street samurai find bullets to buy. It also helps against "Make an Etiquette (1) test or burp loudly at Damien Knight's Party" style tests some GMs like to do. However, I'm generally not a fan of must buys in RPGs. For helping the face with negotiations with the Johnson, I personally think Street Cred helps with that fairly well. You're going to add a die or two, but the face is likely going to cap out anyways since he can only get 4 or so extra dice from teamwork.
There's also the technomancer threading Empathy which can lead to some crazy high bonuses. To be fair, the GM can disallow this sort of thing (UW 136).
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Remember that you either have to have the little emotitoy, or be running a commlink with a System rating of 6 to actually use a Rating 6 Empathy Software at its full potential. Or pay to have it Ergonomic.
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Remember that you either have to have the little emotitoy, or be running a commlink with a System rating of 6 to actually use a Rating 6 Empathy Software at its full potential. Or pay to have it Ergonomic.
I don't think Ergonomic can go on that one.
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Remember that you either have to have the little emotitoy, or be running a commlink with a System rating of 6 to actually use a Rating 6 Empathy Software at its full potential. Or pay to have it Ergonomic.
I don't think Ergonomic can go on that one.
Technically you can't since program options can't be put on sensor software (UW 114).
I'm not sure how much it matters though. If you run Empathy Software on the camera, then you can just upgrade the camera's System to 6. A peripheral node's System rating is not capped by Response (UW 48). That's a total cost of 6100Y (mircocamera 100Y, System 6 3000Y, Empathy 6 3000Y) for +6 dice. This does require Empathy Software to be a program cameras are designed to use (UW 48). I believe this is the case since Empathy Software is designed to be used with cameras (Arsenal 60).
If you can't run it off a camera, you can get effectively Empathy 4 at start with a Hermes Ikon and Novatech Navi for 10500Y (getting Empathy and System at 6). Once you buy a Response 6 chip (8000Y or 4000Y if you build it yourself), you'll have Empathy 6. You can start with a commlink with effective System 5 at start, but I feel like the cost for a Response 5 chip (4000Y base) you're going to throw out so soon isn't worth it.
To be fair, increasing the "cost" of Empathy software just makes more into something most NPCs aren't going to have. That means PCs are just going to rock the security guards that much harder. That isn't a problem per se, but it doesn't really help the "help the social underdog" angle either.
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On Emotoys, I think they're fine so long as you remember that the toy has the software, not the player. Unless the player has a hacker crack it or something then the toy should just act like a toy.
Bring it to a meeting and you should hear things like:
(In a cutey voice)
"You look like you need a hug."
"Lies are no fun, lies can hurt someone!"
"Don't be a meanie - silly beany."
Sure the one marketed towards ork and troll kids would be gruffer and a bit more "street", but not fundamentally different.
At least that's my opinion on the toys.
As for Empathy Software in general. If you apply the rule on SR4A p130 on positive social modifiers to Empathy Software it balances out a bit. Someone has to actually be somewhat versed in social ability to get full benefit, but even a Troll could see some use as it would offset NEGATIVE social modifiers.
I've heard the argument thrown back and forth about if this should fall under the positive social modifier cap or not. I think it makes sense myself and not just for game balance, but not everyone agrees.
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The rules in that cap social bonuses actually make it worse, because they further increase the gap between the charismatic and the less social. There are already far too many ways to rack up social bonuses.
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Just say no to Empathy Software/Emotitoys, kids.
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That's thinking small. Remember, folks, Emotitoys can be hacked, to send incorrect data, and let's face it, the Face probably doesn't have the best matrix defenses of the group. And neither one works on people who are meeting via AR, VR, or Astrally.
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Or using their bio-mask disguise to send specifically misguiding information for that matter. Hmm...a couple points of thermal dampening on the latex mask would really kill the thermal bonus to lie detector too.
Not the route of the standard guard (who should be wearing a helmet in this brutal world and should definitely be at least reducing the emotitoy bonus), but an experienced Johnson wanting to maintain his Anonymity would definitely be better off with this route.
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That's thinking small. Remember, folks, Emotitoys can be hacked, to send incorrect data, and let's face it, the Face probably doesn't have the best matrix defenses of the group. And neither one works on people who are meeting via AR, VR, or Astrally.
Yes, removing face to face communication is the way to go. To be fair, considering all the bonuses one can get face to face social combat, meeting online / via manifesting is really the way people in the shadows should ever discuss things.
Also, shouldn't the team's hacker be checking on things? After all, it isn't like he's doing much else in the meet other than matrix security. At the very least, slaving the commlink to the hacker's is a good idea in general.
At its core, Empathy software is just number inflation. While that's a neutral thing, it tends to just make things more one sided unless everyone gets it PC and NPC. If everyone does, it's just bigger dice pools for no real gain. Thus you can take it or leave it. Since it's just more work for everyone to mess with it, I'm for leaving it.
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Well, the real thing it borks is actually Technomancers. Everyone else is getting +4, maybe +5 to start and eventually +6. Technomancers can very easily get more due to Threading/Assist Operation, and it costs them very little to do so.
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When you're possessed you're no longer the one in control of your character. That, therefore, means that it's not you getting a bonus to your stats, it's the Spirit wearing you like an Edgar-suit to enter the physical world, thus getting a boost to it's stats as the physical structure of the vessel is supplementing its Stat = Force base ratings... and there's no such thing as an Augmented Maximum for a Spirit.
When possessed there is only one creature (the spirit in your body) unless you have channeling. Your body is considered the vessel. The spirits force is added to the vessel's attributes. The vessel (your body) has augmented maximums.
It could work that way, if it were worded that way, but it is specifically not worded the way you described.
But is the physical body still considered your character? And is there still a physical cap when a spirit (Shedim or otherwise) possesses a corpse?
It doesn't have anything to do with it being your character or not. It has to do with the limitations of the meat itself. A living vessel can only be pushed so far. The augmented max is the limit of how far that vessel can be pushed.
And yes, there is a physical cap when a spirit possesses a corpse. And that cap goes down by one for every week the spirit possesses the corpse, because of decay.
I was always under the impression that we hardly use any of our potential physical abilities because of built in limiters to stop us from destroying our muscles. This is why zombies are always thought to be incredibly strong.
Wouldn't this then mean that the spirit possessing us is forcing our muscles and bones past their limits? I would, personally, rule that doing so hurts the mage, doing physical damage over time as they push their bodies, breaking their bones, snapping tendons and bursting blood vessels. They could, if you wanted to, push their bodies hard enough to do permanent damage that can't be fixed, or even kill themselves.
A spirit with the regeneration power completely screws that over though, hence why I think the 'going beyond augmented caps' in Ghost Cartels works.
That's just me though.
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Firstly, there are game balance issues. From a balance perspective, it just makes more sense to have them limited by the augmented max. Especially when you see someone do a Troll possession mage.
Secondly, the augmented max is the limit of what the body can endure without literally breaking apart at the seams. Try to go beyond that, and you'll be doing nasty things like ripping your muscles and breaking bones, and such stuff.
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Firstly, there are game balance issues. From a balance perspective, it just makes more sense to have them limited by the augmented max. Especially when you see someone do a Troll possession mage.
Secondly, the augmented max is the limit of what the body can endure without literally breaking apart at the seams. Try to go beyond that, and you'll be doing nasty things like ripping your muscles and breaking bones, and such stuff.
To the first point, yes, I get that. I was more mentioning what I did to justify the Ghost Cartels rules discrepencies, as Shadow Spirits have regeneration and are in full control of the character, not the player, and are well documented as having no care for the body they inhabit, so it makes sense for it to work that way.
If you wanted to put an actual flavour rule on why spirits summoned by a possession shaman can't go beyond the maximum when inhabiting the mage who summoned them, have it be because the mage wants to be able to use their body afterwards, and if the spirit goes beyond the augmented maxes, it's quite likely they won't be able to. Have the reason they don't do it for enemies they possess be that they want to be able to use the critter/person they are possessing, and as such, don't want it getting broken before it's useful.
To the second point, you will see I mentioned that already. I see it essentially as magical overclocking. I figured I'd bring it up as how I would deal with the issue, this being a 'house rules suggestion' thread.
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I'd put a cumulative -1 penalty on all tests related to the attribute, and taking 1P unresisted per combat turn the ability is above the augmented max. So after two combat turns of having a STR over the augmented max, you'd have taken a -2 penalty on all STR related checks (including skill rolls, weapon damage, and ability checks), and taken 2P damage.