Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Mirikon on <05-07-12/1425:30>
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There's something I've never understood. I know that a spirit can't use AR or VR, but they can read what is written on a piece of paper or a road sign, right? So why can't they see what is printed on a physical display screen, or use old-fashioned cyberterminals? Afterall, Buttercup has to keep track of all the business that goes through Evo and her own holdings somehow, right? And would a spirit be unable to hear an audio message broadcast from speakers? If so, why?
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Spirits don't have eyes. They only perceive with astral perception. And since they are astral beings they can perceive even better than ghouls. Not only not getting the -2 penalties, but even able to recognize fine differences in texture or material, i.e. ink on paper. The can't perceive light, i.e. AR displays, shadows or images in a mirror.
For that reason they would also not be able to hear audio messages from speakers, they hear as in manifestation.
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what if is possesses a person/machine ?
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I have a separate but related question. Can a person, awakened or otherwise, ride a beast spirit like a horse?
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what if is possesses a person/machine ?
Possessing is only a form of controlling a person, but they are still using their own senses.
But the description in the book is a little contradicting: Saying, possessing spirits can't perceive AR, but can benefit of ones eye replacement. The benefit of eye replacement is not as passive as the other example of bone lacing, so it doesn't really fit. Especially if they are not able to get any of the hosts knowledge, skills or memories, they shouldn't get any of the senses as well.
I have a separate but related question. Can a person, awakened or otherwise, ride a beast spirit like a horse?
Its related to this:
Can materialized spirits use weapons, armor, or other equipment if provided?
Many spirits’ forms are not suited for wearing armor or using weapons, but if their form is suitable and the gear provided they can make use of hem. Spirits possessing metahuman hosts have a slight advantage here in being able to use most of their host vessel’s equipment. Most spirits do not have the proper skills to make use of weapons; if they do not, then they must default when using them.
Most spirits are probably not suited for "carrying" a person, but a beast spirit in a horse form certainly is.
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Can anyone else corroborate that? A lot of that sounds.... very wrong.
EDIT: That is, the part about spirits ONLY ever having astral sight.
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(don't have books ATM, running off memory)
IIRC, spirits with the materialization power can assume a physical form but are still made entirely of mana. It might be possible for them to 'read' a terminal while materialized, but a VR/AR display would probably be beyond them simply cause you are talking about a digital format displayed on nothing. They are both a projected image. Dictated material could be heard of course. Remember, a spirit doesn't have muscles, nerves, neutrons, or anything else that resembles an anatomy of a person, they are an alien form of 'life' made of mystical energy (mana) and are barely understood even after almost 60 years of study.
It would be possible to ride a materialized spirit (if it allowed you to ride it!) due to the fact that once materialized it has mass and form (basically solid) it would still need the strength to carry the weight however, so weaker spirits may not be able to do so.
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I honestly thought spirits that possessed a body would use their ears/eyes to perceive.
Spirits that possess vehicles and the like can use their sensors can't they?
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I honestly thought spirits that possessed a body would use their ears/eyes to perceive.
Spirits that possess vehicles and the like can use their sensors can't they?
Lots of conjecture on this.... Been several other posts/debates about it.
What they all agree in is: the 'vessel' must be prepared (be it a body, a car, a toaster) for the spirit to inhabit it. And the preparation must be done for all components of the 'vessel' (meaning a car, that is a collection of components, each must be prepared) this leads to an expensive process.
Basically, talk to your GM and see what he has to say on the matter, in the end it's up to him anyways
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I honestly thought spirits that possessed a body would use their ears/eyes to perceive.
Spirits that possess vehicles and the like can use their sensors can't they?
Ok, got my Street magic book out...
on Pgs 102-103 sidebar (the white on black text)
It talks about a pessessed SAAB (a car), whiel the spirit could drive the car, it could NOT operate the sensors or any other electronic devices. The spirit can only interact with and operate/move the MECHANICAL parts of the car.
Also under Pg 86, to enchant the car, you need 1 radical reagent per 10 kg of mass of the vessel (so, depending on the car, it's mass is somewhere between 1800 to 3200 kg, or 180 to 320 reagents at a cost of $200 to $40,000 EACH!) and you may have to enchant seperate parts of the car seperately, which means taking it apart, enchanting, and then reassembling.
so, once again I say, "Talk to your GM" it's all up to him in the end!
**REASON FOR EDIT: actually took a second to look up how much cars weigh... http://cars.lovetoknow.com/How_Much_Does_a_Car_Weigh
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ah I was totally misremembering that... thank you Reaver
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However, it does call into question why Spirits of Man (pg. 303, SR4A) have Low Light and Thermographic Vision...
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We probably have to assume, those enhanced senses are astral versions. Especially since those powers are not limited to their materialized form.
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Except that there's no such thing as astral forms with heat, and no astral 'light' to be low. This would seem to go against the whole 'spirits can only see with astral perception' argument.
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True, but still spirits don't have eyes, so the ability to "see" must be at least paranormal.
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Just because it is a paranormal means of sight doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to do such mundane things as watch the physical display screen. Any simsense is obviously out, but I've never heard a satisfactory explanation why a manifested spirit couldn't read a physical display screen, or listen to the audio from a television set.
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It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air. If spirit can hear you speak, it should certainly be able to hear a speaker, because both operate on the same principle. I can understand their sight being based on perceiving the inherant "spirit" of everything, but hearing is something entirely different. I can understand not seeing a screen because they don't perceive light, and therefore they'd see a screen as a single object displaying nothing because the display is nothing more than an electronic representation.
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I'd rule that they could read a display (provided that they are literate). That still rules out most useful definitions of "using computers" in the 2070s, as everything is simsense based.
As for using simsense, I think the only way is through the inhabitation power, as these have neural structures and can use DNIs. I personally would rule that possession would not even permit the use of vehicle accessories like weapons and such, as these are added on in much the same way as cyberware is in a metahuman.
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It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air. If spirit can hear you speak, it should certainly be able to hear a speaker, because both operate on the same principle. I can understand their sight being based on perceiving the inherant "spirit" of everything, but hearing is something entirely different. I can understand not seeing a screen because they don't perceive light, and therefore they'd see a screen as a single object displaying nothing because the display is nothing more than an electronic representation.
Yes, that's the way i see it too. The hearing restriction was just part of my astral approach. If the senses are considered paranormal, it doesn't really fit anymore.
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Not that it makes any difference, but spirits can have eyes. Each tradition and totem summons their own interpretation of a spirit of man or beast spirit. A Shinto beast spirit may be more asian (Tiger-esque creations, etc) while a native american beast spirit might closer resemble a bear. So let's clarify that they can have "Eyes" in the physical sense.
Personally I would say that spirits can see as we can, because last I checked they aren't exempt from glare modifiers (IE Light) or any other form of vision distortion (Smoke for instance). I don't see how they can be affected by Strobing and smoke grenades but not be able to read a computer screen (Not one of them fancy holo-screens but say an iPhone screen).
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I played it as coloured dots on a monitor or displayed holographically have no real emotional meaning to a spirit unless its Possessing a person. However for no other reason than Rule of Cool that spirits are perfectly capable of watching 2d movies projected onto a wall. Wandering into an old movie theater when the "patrons" are singing along to "Time on My Side" loudly while watching Fallen is a striking mental image.
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I know that a spirit can't use AR or VR, but they can read what is written on a piece of paper or a road sign, right? So why can't they see what is printed on a physical display screen, or use old-fashioned cyberterminals?
I wonder if spirits actually have any language skills. :o
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It certainly doesn't make any sense because all sound is is pressure waves in the air.
IIRC, when you're in the astral you can hear what people are saying in the corresponding physical space. Deaf magicians can hear when astrally perceiving (pg. 191, SR4A).
So if you're in the same place as someone, you "hear" them astrally because they're directly communicating their emotional intent (or lying about it, whichever). Speakers don't do that.
It is almost always a mistake to attempt to use physics to understand the magic rules.
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I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure? It kinda totally eliminates the need for the Clairaudience spell to listen somewhere else.
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Clairaudience is more efficient. You don't have to go there, because of the spells range and you can't get detected.
Using the psychic effect of manifestation for listening in on people will require some sort of stealth. There are no rules for that, but there are suggestions in the FAQ.
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Been re-reading the Street magic info on spirits, and the only thing we know for sure, is that we know nothing really about spirits. The only thing a take away from reading between the lines is that spirits seem to possess qualities that the summoner expects them to have on a sub-conscience level. What I mean by that is, if a Shaman is summoning a Spirit of Man, and he believes he is summoning some ancient ancestor of his, the spirit very well could have all sorts of ancient knowledge or skills (speaks fluent Salish for example). But if a mage believes spirits are a warping of mana to his will, the spirit he summons will be more like an animation then the Shaman's example.
On page 92 of SM, the write up goes on to state the following:
".... Interaction with technological display devices and simsense such as commlinks and simrigs is even more tenuous. the location of a spirit's visual ability is at the vary least variable; and as there is no nervous system to connect to, the technical diffiulties of making sure an AR setup are far from trivial"
So, this basically tells me that while it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for a spirit to be able to use simsense or a commlink, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to be able to. Again, this may be a restriction of the summoning mage. Since the mage doesn't believe that the spirit could be able to "understand" a commlink, the spirit can't. In short, the limitations of the mage put limitations on the spirit.
this could explain why some spirits (Buttercup) can appear to use technology and other spirits can't.
So, I guess that leaves us back at square one :P And it's upto the GM of individual games to theorize on their own what a spirit can and can not do in their games. For me, I would base my answer on the Mage in question and what he shows me he thinks the spirit is.... Is he using them as mindless lemmings to throw at his enemies? does he hold every spirit he summons with a touch of reverance? Are they tools to make himself stronger? or, are they individuals that he plucks from the ether, crushes their will and bind to his service?
His actions speak louder then words, and his actions reflect his true beliefs, and thus what the spirits can and can not do....
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I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure? It kinda totally eliminates the need for the Clairaudience spell to listen somewhere else.
Mystic Adepts, if nothing else, show why you might want Clairaudience - they can't astrally project!
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I wasn't aware that astrally projecting magicians could hear like that, I mean are we sure?
The other thing here, since I can't dig out a relevant quote right now, is manifestation (pg. 193, SR4A) - allowing an astrally projecting magician to make themselves visible and audible on the physical plane. They sure as hell aren't producing soundwaves (as they can't physically interact with anything) and don't appear on recording media. So we can reasonably infer that astral beings' ability to speak and listen has nothing to do with sound waves.