Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Cranstonvm on <05-11-12/1806:26>
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He is a Great Dragon, owns SK, and is the Loremaster. What else please?
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Hestbay is the current loremaster.
In my opinion the best info on Lofwyr is in the 3rd edition book Dragons of the Sixth World.
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Hestbay is the current loremaster.
In my opinion the best info on Lofwyr is in the 3rd edition book Dragons of the Sixth World.
That I have, will read again. Looking for stuff from the novels. Adventures, and other sources I missed over the past 10 years or the early days before I started getting serious about SR.
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He's a dick. Even by Dragon standards. ;D
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Him and Hestaby are having a little spat at the moment, also he's making inroads into the middle east.
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He and Alamais(e) are twins and do NOT get along.
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He's got the NEEC, and by extension most of Europe, in his pocket.
He's been ruling over what is now Germany since he beat up Almaise and kicked him out way back in the Second World. That's a long time.
He might have had some eggs stashed somewhere in Tir Tairngire before he lost his seat on the Council of Princes. (They probably were not his biologically, however... adult dragons mate and then give their eggs to a great dragon to raise. But they'll probably take after him more than their biological parents, anyway, thanks to dragon telepathy.) They've almost certainly been moved.
I'm not entirely sure if he's the loremaster or not. When I played through Survival of the Fittest, Hestaby won the contest to become loremaster. But I've seen several sourcebooks saying that Lofwyr is. (Maybe the game's writers just assumed that the players would turn on Hestaby when Lofwyr offered them more money, and my group was an oddity.) If so, he's sort of an odd choice. The previous two Loremasters (Dunkelzhan and his predecessor, Vasdenjas from Earthdawn) were both basically polar opposites of Lofwyr: they put forth the image of being approachable (Dunkelzhan had his trid show, while Vasdenjas authored several books for the Library of Throal) and relatively friendly and willing to share their knowledge (within certain limits), and both died in an act of self-sacrifice. If Lofwyr were the Loremaster, I'd be concerned that he might abuse the position.
According to Street Legends, his Magic stat is only 27... not as high as you'd expect from a Great Dragon. Hestaby's is 36. Harlequin has a 30. Again, I wonder what that says about his qualifications for the Loremaster position. In terms of influence in metahuman affairs, of course, controlling the biggest megacorp puts him way ahead of anyone (save perhaps the twenty minutes or so where Dunkelzhan was president).
He might sometimes use the name Hans Brackhaus for his human disguises. A lot of Saeder-Krupp Johnsons use the same alias, however. Some of the human Hans Brackhauses might even be using masking to fake the astral signature of a dragon to scare people into thinking that they're Lofwyr in disguise.
He's a dick, even by dragon standards. For comparison purposes, consider that his brother Almaise was considered kind of a dick even by dragon standards back in the Earthdawn days... and Lofwyr made him look like a chump.
His go-to spy and fixer during the artifact rush was Simon Williams, a British neo-anarchist punk who turned into a lizard man when the comet came by. Lofwyr tracked him down thinking that he might be a drake (he wasn't, but he might be a t'skrang from ED) and then gave him a job, despite him being mouthy to the point that most people would have been eaten. Williams likes to hang out at a Godzilla-themed bar called The Rubber Suit in Seattle, pretending to be part of the scenery to dick with people. He was in opposition with some elven assassin/fixer working for Lung for info on artifacts, and if you're running Artifacts Unbound, he might hire you to assense the Maltese Falcon.
Oh, and Lofwyr is gold in color. Fitting, no?
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He might sometimes use the name Hans Brackhaus for his human disguises. A lot of Saeder-Krupp Johnsons use the same alias, however. Some of the human Hans Brackhauses might even be using masking to fake the astral signature of a dragon to scare people into thinking that they're Lofwyr in disguise.
Actually according to Street Legends and Damage Control there is around a true "Hans Brackhaus" who was the man who helped the Golden Lizard to catch his current position in the Corporate World.
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, like there's a true "Mr. Johnson" helping Ares. ;D
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Well, Mr. Johnson works in Marketing so "helping" really depends on which side of the manufacturing/sales divide you're on.
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There might, at one time, have been someone named Hans Brackhaus, who worked as a Johnson for SK. However, whether that is the case, or whether the original was in fact one of Lofwyr's metahuman forms, or whether there is something else we're missing, at this point it is irrelevant. Hans Brackhaus is a brand name, and the mystique of 'this could be Lofwyr in disguise' is the biggest source of the brand's power, beyond even the resources of SK.
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To paraphrase someone's sig line, "Meanwhile in Essen, 'Everything is going according to plan.'"
The Lofmeister is tricky even by dragon standards if Hans Brackhaus is known and speculated about it's because he want's him to be known and speculated about, or that's what he wants us to think and he's still mentally screwing us.
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He and Alamais(e) are twins and do NOT get along.
You realize that dragons hatch from eggs right?
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So...what is resolve on this Loremaster question...is it Lofwyr or is it Hestaby???
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I've read in multiple places it was Lofwyr. IIRC, Hestaby was as well. I seem to recall Hestaby being Loremaster in 3rd ed while Lofwyr is now mentioned as Loremaster in 4th.
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He and Alamais(e) are twins and do NOT get along.
You realize that dragons hatch from eggs right?
Yes, but there is at least one case of a pair of conjoined dragon eggs, resulting in "twin" brothers: Vasdenjas and Vestrivan.
According to Vasdenjas' report concerning his brother in his
Creatures of Barsaive tome in the Library ofThroal, Vestrivan and
Vasdenjas were born in a twin-shelled egg, two apparently normal eggs
joined end to end. Such proximity allowed the two to share the same
imimate telepathy that a sire shares with his brood. I theorize that such
intimacy is what made the two brothers so close and so identical in
mind and spirit.
This is the first I've heard about Almaise and Lofwyr being twins, however, rather than just brothers. They're not identical in appearance (Lofwyr is completely gold while Almaise is gold and red), and they don't have a close relationship like V&V.
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This is the first I've heard about Almaise and Lofwyr being twins, however, rather than just brothers. They're not identical in appearance (Lofwyr is completely gold while Almaise is gold and red), and they don't have a close relationship like V&V.
Hmm, I may have been confusing them with the two V's then. For some reason I thought they were also twins though. Anyhow I'll correct myself to:
He and Alamais(e) are brothers and do NOT get along.
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Lofwyr and Alamais aren't twins.
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As for Loremaster, I *think* that the idea is that Lofwyr claimed the title of Loremaster for himself, until the big throwdown where the dragons competed for the title. Hestaby won, proving herself to be the Top Dragon. She then split the title of "Dragon Regent" and "Master of Lore" into two, keeping the ruling title for herself but, convinced that Dunk wanted Lofwyr to have the memory crystal (Think of the Autobot Matrix of Leadership for a shorthand) she gave it to him, along with the title of "Loremaster". I don't think she's ever named the "Dragon Regent" as a title, since the dragons all know she won, and no one else really cares.
I *think*.
This was right about when I took some time away from playing Shadowrun and things are a tad hazy. James can probably tell you much more than I can. He's got a great head for this.
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As for Loremaster, I *think* that the idea is that Lofwyr claimed the title of Loremaster for himself, until the big throwdown where the dragons competed for the title. Hestaby won, proving herself to be the Top Dragon. She then split the title of "Dragon Regent" and "Master of Lore" into two, keeping the ruling title for herself but, convinced that Dunk wanted Lofwyr to have the memory crystal (Think of the Autobot Matrix of Leadership for a shorthand) she gave it to him, along with the title of "Loremaster". I don't think she's ever named the "Dragon Regent" as a title, since the dragons all know she won, and no one else really cares.
That actually makes a certain amount of sense. We keep conflating the role of Loremaster with being the head of the dragon council because Dunkelzhan seemed to hold both roles, but now that I stop and think about it, I recall that wasn't originally the case. In Earthdawn, prior to the Fall of Skypoint, Mountainshadow/Dunkelzhan seemed to be the top mover and shaker among dragons, but the Loremaster was Vasdenjas. And Vasdenjas had that role not because he was the oldest or strongest or most powerful of dragons (he wasn't), but because he was the one who most loved to learn and to teach. (I wonder if Schwartzkopf was one of his proteges.) After Vasdenjas was killed protecting the Earthdawn in the Battle of Vivane, Mountainshadow took custody of his archives (ostensibly) because he didn't want to risk the Outcast making a grab for them while the dragons were sorting out the Rite of Succession, and so seems to have wound up becoming the Loremaster by default. (Possibly that was his true objective all along.) So having the Loremaster also be the senior wyrm was actually kind of an anomaly (a 7,000 year anomaly, but dragons are like that) that has now been rectified.
Then again, leadership of the council doesn't seem to be worth what it used to be, since the dragons are (as far as we can tell) by and large all doing their own thing rather than following any sort of policy. Just look at how Udun/Sirraug has slipped his leash and finally gotten that genocide he always wanted.
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Well, the dragon council hasn't actually met physically in the Sixth World, IIRC, except for while they did the Rite. The greats worked together to kill the dragonslayer cults, but even that wasn't something they called the full council for. And dragons have always done their own thing. Though someone may need to call the council together before the situation between Lofwyr and Hestaby turns into a civil war.
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Probably a bit late for that. :)
The Dragon Council tends to only worry about things that affect dragons as a whole, otherwise serving a hands-off function. They don't come together to deal with single dragon actions or to resolve disuptes ... you're a DRAGON. Settle it with tooth and claw, like your forefathers did! SHeesh!
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Or through pawns. Why endanger yourself when there's so many short-lived folk around that are willing to do the dirty work for a fraction of a percent of what you just dug out of the couch cushions?
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That actually makes a certain amount of sense. We keep conflating the role of Loremaster with being the head of the dragon council because Dunkelzhan seemed to hold both roles, but now that I stop and think about it, I recall that wasn't originally the case. In Earthdawn, prior to the Fall of Skypoint, Mountainshadow/Dunkelzhan seemed to be the top mover and shaker among dragons, but the Loremaster was Vasdenjas. And Vasdenjas had that role not because he was the oldest or strongest or most powerful of dragons (he wasn't), but because he was the one who most loved to learn and to teach. (I wonder if Schwartzkopf was one of his proteges.) After Vasdenjas was killed protecting the Earthdawn in the Battle of Vivane, Mountainshadow took custody of his archives (ostensibly) because he didn't want to risk the Outcast making a grab for them while the dragons were sorting out the Rite of Succession, and so seems to have wound up becoming the Loremaster by default. (Possibly that was his true objective all along.) So having the Loremaster also be the senior wyrm was actually kind of an anomaly (a 7,000 year anomaly, but dragons are like that) that has now been rectified.
Actually, Earthdawn book refers to Vasdenjas as the Loremaster of Barsaive. In The Book of Dragons, Mountainshadow use plural Loremasters to describe their role. It suggest there were other Loremasters in the rest of the world, like a Loremaster of Vasgothia, a Loremaster of Cathay, and so on. Loremasters are Keepers of the Rites. Dragons being fiercely independent, few would accept to recognize another of their brethren as a leader. So it's mostly a ceremonial duty for Loremasters to speak first and then enforce etiquette during the council.
In Survival of the Fittest introduction, the great dragons of the world meet as a single council, and expect the titular Loremaster to open it (except for Ghostwalker, who challenges Lofwyr title). So it seems like there's only one Loremaster in the Sixth Age.
A dragon becomes Loremaster either by killing the previous Loremaster (there's no Rite of Succession when a dragon kills another), or winning the Rite of Succession and taking the previous Loremaster's memory crystals, or receiving the previous Loremaster's memory crystals from the Rite's winner. Maybe a Loremaster can also hand the job to another dragon. So it's like Dunkelzahn somehow "unified the title" like they do in boxing, through either of those means. He may have started as Loremaster of Barsaive, and he obviously moved to the Rocky Mountains before the end of the Fourth World (since he awoke in Denver area in 2012). Becoming Loremaster of the West may have been a way for Dunkelzahn to put an end to the war between feathered serpents over the use of blood magic.
Interestingly enough, in Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets, someone posted on Shadowland under the login "Loremaster" to challenge Dunkelzahn's Will, and it's not Hestaby or Lofwyr (nor can it be Ghostwalker, who wasn't back yet). Dragons of the Sixh World heavily suggests it was Nachmeister. "Loremaster" argued over the will, and how it wasn't respecting the traditions. On the other hand, using a title you haven't yet earned is not respecting the traditions either...
So maybe Nachtmeister was Loremaster of Vasgothia, the last of the Loremaster title Dunkelzahn had not already conquered. Thus, he was right in using the title and was only doing his job in asking for a proper Rite of Succession to be held after Dunkelzahn's death. It's Lofwyr, by inheriting and keeping Dunkelzahn's memory crystal, and killing Nachtmeister, who did become the only Loremaster. In this case, Lofwyr would have remained Loremaster of Vasgothia even if he had lost the Rite of Succession in Survival of the Fittest.
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Dragon's traditions are not for the short lived ones such as us. :P
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Says you.
In Survival of the Fittest, presuming the PCs present the Gem to either Hestaby or Lofwyr, Lofwyr is the one who winds up with it. Either he gets it, or else Hestaby displays it in an indication of her triumph in the Rite, and then upholds Dunkelzahn's acknowledgement that their ways and traditions need examination and updating by returning the essence of the Gem to Lofwyr. I believe the world-canon on that adventure series has Hestaby winning and presenting Lofwyr with the Gem in just such a manner.
So either way, Lofwyr is the Loremaster.
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If she wins she also says, "We can all of us be Loremasters."
Pfft. Women.
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Well, she wants to be the next Dunkelzahn; what'd you expect Hilar... errr, Hestaby to say?
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Well, she wants to be the next Dunkelzahn; what'd you expect Hilar... errr, Hestaby to say?
(http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/hillaryclinton1960s.jpg)
Be far out and groovy, man!
(Sock it to me.)
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For some reason I got the impression that Hestiby won, but traded the title to Lowfyr for a number of concessions, such as the Princeship in the Tir. That and her respect for Big D.
This actually reflects a longer rivalary between Lowfyr and Hestiby then the current dust-up... and Hestiby won the last bout...
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For some reason I got the impression that Hestiby won, but traded the title to Lowfyr for a number of concessions, such as the Princeship in the Tir. That and her respect for Big D.
Regarding the Jewel of Memory and the Loremaster title, that was one of the possible outcome of the Rite of Succession in Survival of the Fittest, depending on the PC choice.Survival of the Fittest, page 120
If the shadowrunners present the Jewel to Hestaby, read the following:
Hestaby takes the glowing crimson gemstone into one clawed paw, lifting it for the assembled dragons to see.
"Behold," she says. "The essence of the the Jewel of Memory, the lore and knowledge of dragonkind made manifest. It lies in my grasp and is now mine by right, according to our ways."
There is a long moment of silence, as the gathered dragons seem to be discussing matters among themselves. Then, one by one they begin to bow their heads toward Hestaby. Lofwyr is soon the last dragon standing at his full height and he too slowly lowers his head toward Hestaby.
Then she moves forward toward Lofwr, the glowing jewel held in her claws, and places it gently on the ground in front of him. Lofwyr lifts his head slighlt and the other dragons glance at each other. Clearly this is unexpected. Even Lofwyr seems taken aback for a moment, thought his inhuman features are difficult to read.
"You have been a good caretaker of this, Gold-Master," Hestaby says. "More importantly, Far Scholar intended you to have it. So I return it to you. Guard it well."
Lofwyr says nothing, but scoops up the jewel from the grounds and holds it. Hestaby turns to the assembled dragons.
"This contest is done, but I will not claim the title of Loremaster. As have maintained from the beginning, it is time for us fo change our ways. Far Scholar showed up a beginning, a new path to follow where we exist in cooperation with the Young Races and take our places in this new Age that has grown up around us. I embrace that nex path, and I encourage you to do likewise. We can all of us be Loremasters and share our insight with others, learning from them in turn. As such, I declare that the dispersal of Far Scholar's hoard shall stand as he intended it. We will respect and honor his memory, and I hope that we will not forget his vision for as well."
Dragons of the Sixth World later made it the canonical ending.Dragons of the Sixth World, page 192
As detailed in the campaign Survival of the Fittest, Hestaby recently earned her place at the top of the great dragon hierarchy, besting even Lofwyr and Ghostwalker in a massive ritual challenge. Though she declined to take the role of Loremaster, leaving that in Lofwyr's claws, she is using her victory to direct dragonkind down a new path-a patch originally blazed by Dunkelzahn.
Regarding the Tir Tairngire Council of Princes, Dragons of the Sixth World and other sources contain elements that suggest Lofwyr ate Glasgian Oakforest, Prince Aithne's son, as a payback for an egg theft. Both Aithne Oakforest and Lofwyr resigned from the council after that. My understanding is that the immortal elves are bound by some sort of treaty with dragons. The former are forced to accept some sort of overwatch by a dragon if they intend to rule mortals, or something like that. So the elves wouldn't have their say once the dragons agreed that Hestaby would be their representative.
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While the module did have both endings, so as not to railroad players, the game lore assumes that Hestaby won, just like it assumes that the players decided not to walk away from helping Harlequin stop Darke in Harlequin's Back.
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While the module did have both endings, so as not to railroad players, the game lore assumes that Hestaby won, just like it assumes that the players decided not to walk away from helping Harlequin stop Darke in Harlequin's Back.
*Shrugs* He'd have found another group of fools to do it anyhow. ;D
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While the module did have both endings, so as not to railroad players, the game lore assumes that Hestaby won, just like it assumes that the players decided not to walk away from helping Harlequin stop Darke in Harlequin's Back.
*Shrugs* He'd have found another group of fools to do it anyhow. ;D
Actually, in Harlequin's back, you're pretty much forced on him. Fate says you're the ones to do the job, and Harlequin doesn't have a choice about it.
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Actually, in Harlequin's back, you're pretty much forced on him. Fate says you're the ones to do the job, and Harlequin doesn't have a choice about it.
Fate is a drop-forged steel slitch. >:(