Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-14-12/2211:02>

Title: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-14-12/2211:02>
My wife's friend has an idea of a shinto priestess that punches demons to death. I really like it as an idea but am unsure the best way to go about it. So far I'm thinking mystic adept with element aura (fire) + critical strike + killing hands (for bypassing ITNW) + element strike (fire) + the martial art Kiai for +3 DV to attacks of will. Seems a strong contender for ghost punching but might be wandering into one trick pony areas.

Any ideas for this that isn't gimped to anything that's not punching a ghost?
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Netzgeist on <05-14-12/2241:31>
I may be completly wrong on this, but I always though killing hands and whatever couldn't be used in an attack of will.

My suggestion, make a real charismatic face [what about an Elf SURGEd with Metagenetic Improvement (Charisma)] with a natural Charisma of 9 and a DV of 9 in attacks of will? If it's a mage-face build, then have a high Banishing and Willpower (in order to make the attack of will hit), and there you go (remember that will hurts demons more than raw force)...

But I don't really know if one can make a real good Mage/Face.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Glyph on <05-14-12/2248:55>
An attack of will is what a mundane is stuck with.  An adept is much better off using killing hands and a normal unarmed attack - much better dice pool, and with things like critical strike, much better damage as well.  The only problem with an adept spirit puncher is that they can only do this well against materialized spirits.  For astral spirits, they run into problems - they need astral sight to see them, then astral combat to fight them (typically a lower dice pool), and they are stuck in their meat body while their opponent can move in any direction, including up.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: wylie on <05-14-12/2250:08>
you'll need ot purchase astral perception, being a mystic adept. I would recommend assensing as well.

you may not need all the 'fire' powers, except as fluff.
killing hands, yes. critical strike yes
high unarmed/ martail arts YES

the rest is based on the flavor of the character.

also, look things she may be doing when not fighting 'ghosts'. pick some strong 2ndary skills to fall back onto to keep her from becoming a one trick. like stealth or negotiation

 let us know how she turns out.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on <05-15-12/0147:27>
Mystic Adept with astral sight and stunbolt/powerbolt for dealing with spirits that are not materialized.
Dont take Banish.

And then adept punshy stuff for the rest (or melee with a weapon foci).

Rasmus
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-15-12/0455:16>
My wife's friend has an idea of a shinto priestess that punches demons to death. I really like it as an idea but am unsure the best way to go about it. So far I'm thinking mystic adept with element aura (fire) + critical strike + killing hands (for bypassing ITNW) + element strike (fire) + the martial art Kiai for +3 DV to attacks of will. Seems a strong contender for ghost punching but might be wandering into one trick pony areas.

Any ideas for this that isn't gimped to anything that's not punching a ghost?

The Critical Strike, Killing Hands and Unarmed Combat skill will serve well against normal adversaries as well as spirits. (I'm not sure how important the elemental stuff is, but if the player wants it for style/character purposes, then go for it.) Distance Strike would let her launch ki blasts as a ranged combat option, but it's absurdly expensive, so you probably shouldn't bother. (Archery as a ranged combat option would kinda fit the shinto priestess thing, but maybe I'm just thinking that because of Inuyasha.) You probably should skip the Kiai thing: attacks of will are something you only need to do if you don't have Killing Hands. If fighting spirits is going to be her things, then Astral Perception is probably a must, so she can spot them when they're immaterial. Enhanced Perception to improve her ability to detect them and other threats.

Needed skills? Unarmed Combat, Assensing, Perception are musts. Athletics would be handy. A ranged combat skill of some sort. After that, it depends on what other roles she's going to take on besides ghost-punching. Stealth? Influence? It's up to the player.

Oh, and it probably ought to be said even though we usually take it for granted: she'll need Increased Reflexes to get additional initiative passes. Going only once a turn is no good for a combatant.

Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: JustADude on <05-15-12/0656:53>
(I'm not sure how important the elemental stuff is, but if the player wants it for style/character purposes, then go for it.)

Elemental Strike basically takes Killing Hands and adds an elemental effect on it. Fire is, of course, AP -1/2 I & burnination. However... depending on how one defines "Force" when applying an elemental effect to a punch... I'd probably recommend Blast over Fire, since it has the same Physical DV & AP -1/2 I and has better elemental side effects. Plus, on a personal level, I think an explosive "Knuckle Bomb" blast effect when you hit someone is even more awesome than burning fists. ;D

Since Force = DV for elemental Combat spells, I'm working on the assumption that, for Elemental Strike, the final DV (i.e. after Critical Strike, MA bonuses, etc are applied) of the attack would be treated as the Force, since there's no other real way to translate it.

That means that, since Blast has the same "add Force to damage dealt" effect as Water and she'll be swinging at least 10 DV after Critical Strike and MA mods, she'll be able to knock even trolls flat on their rumps with ease. But wait, there's more! If the target is an object and your Force is greater than the target's Structure rating, it's automatically (to quote the book) "knocked over, shattered, shredded, or otherwise swept away." That means, with a Strength of 3+, she'll be able to smash holes in anything up to the Structural Material (Brick/Plascrete) level without any sort of damage test. That includes things like doors, most walls, chain-link fences, and freakin' trees.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean for that to turn into quite such a tangent. Still, the point stands. ;)
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on <05-15-12/0740:42>
Element Aura from street magic p. 173:
Quote
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold, Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155, SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
I personally like Sound for this ;)

Sustained in a force 3 sustaining foci it would add +3 to DV.
+3 DV from martial arts and as much as possible from critical strike  ;D

Rasmus
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Critias on <05-15-12/1338:06>
Keep in mind that spirits are tough to punch.  Not because they're exceptionally good in melee combat, not because an adept can't rack up the dice needed to KAPOW them into next week, etc, etc...but because they're spirits, and you only have normal human-ranged arms.  A great many of them have no reason at all to ever close to melee range, much LESS to stay there while you wail on them.  They are kiters second to none, and you only have stubby little human arms to try and KAPOW them with.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Chrona on <05-15-12/1345:07>
I personally like Sound for this ;)
Damn that must be loud
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Mason on <05-15-12/1406:55>
Honestly? I think a full Adept fits your concept better, unless she really wants to have spells. Then use Martial Arts qualities to add more DV to Unarmed combat.

Without using Adept Way qualities:
Magic 6:
Critical Strike 6 (1.5) +6 punching damage
Killing Hands (0.5)
Astral Perception (1)
Elemental Strike (0.5) (one element)
Increased Reflexes 2 (2.5)

Later purchases: up Increased Reflexes to max. Buy more element strikes. Increase critical strike. Buy Distance Strike for 2 PP.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Thrass on <05-15-12/2044:18>
I'ld go elf and try to get mind over matter in
thing is I can't seem to get distance strike, mind over matter, astral perception critical strike killing hands and an initiative enhancer into 1 character with BP rules...

but I squeezed at every end and came out with this:
Elf, surge 2 --> metagenetic improvement charisma, genetic optimization charisma

BOD: 3
AGI: 5
REA: 5
STR: 1
CHA: 9
INT: 2
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
MAG: 5

positive qualities:
10bp mystic adept
10bp way of the ways
10bp surge class II
5bp martial arts

mystic adept : 3 points in adept 2 points in mage
walking the ways (custom way discount)
martial arts: +1dv
mystic powers: distance strike (way discounted, geas); Astral perception (geas); Mind over Matter charisma-> strength (way discounted, geas); critical strike (2)

get the following spells:
improved reflexes; Sound Aura (elemental aura);

get bone density augmentation rating 3

you can cast improved reflexes at force 4 for 4 ini passes...

you do 9p  + 1dv from martial arts + the hits you got on Sound aura
you do 9p on an attack of will
therefore I'ld not go for extra damage for attacks of will with the martial arts but for real attacks... also I think attacks of will wont mix with distance strike

it's a shame there is no way that has distance strike on it's list... otherwise maybe you would be able to actually squeeze in a real way bonus right now it's just a discount


this is a half baked character concept...
it works under the following assumption:
- you can distance strike
- with your unnarmed melee damage form your bones (str/2+2)
- while replacing strength with charisma (which may be more RAI then RAW)
- while using martial arts
- and the Elemental Aura Spell to augment your damage (elemental strike is forbidden for distance strike elemental aura needs to be discussed with your gm)
- you are allowed to use geas on adept powers (I always try to take praying for 1 hour in every 24 hours depending on the magic tradition)


If you think you got enough damage you could drop the martial arts and go for spirit mentor maybe bear which'ld give you another 2 dice to resist physical damage and might fit the concept if you take a shaman tradition which goes well with your charisma

body is not that high but you get +3 body for damage resistance tests from the bone density... still if you want to wear good armour you probably need to work in more body or go for formfitting or something

this is the most I can get out of the mystic adept approach I think

critical strike leaves room for improvement as well as martial arts... you can easily get another 2dv from martial arts...

if you happen to go for one of the other peoples builds: consider hardliner gloves from Arsenal...
they don't stack with bone density but could free up 0.5 power points for killing hands + 0.25 power points for 1 level of critical strike (or just add another 1dv)



all in all I think 12 possible points of attack of will power (9charisma +3 from martial arts) with a maximum dice pool of 12 for attacking (willpower6 + banish6)
will not cut it because a typical force 6 spirit has 8-10 reaction + 6 unnarmed combat which is higher then your attack pool
with unnarmed combat you can get a higher dice pool with a skill that fits more purposes and combine it with distance strike which reduces your opponents dice pool to reaction which is 8-10 for a force 6 spirit
all while being able to punch him up from 5 meters distance which gives you a little more room to fight those spirits


btw sound is one of the nastiest elemental attacks that you can get


edit:
forgot to mention the full offense maneuver which can get you another easy +2 to attack dice pool while not fighting in melee ;)
and maybe ground fighting but since you need to get into the 5 meters range you cannot get boni from lying prone against ranged attacks
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-15-12/2222:34>
quick and dirty outline i threw together. still 8 BP and 2.1875 PP left on the table. wondering to throw on some cyber for body/armor. probably some legs to eat those 2 PP or arm of awesome to help with the punching.

also thinking of a custom shinto variation that allows posession and probably trades man for guardian. (since it looks like im gonna end up GMing this game thats kosher with me.) The end goal there would probably be channeling an ally spirit or some such.

p.s. fashion is for awesome anime transformation! and light as the element is by request. nothing like a big glowing target...

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 6 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 4
REA: 3
STR: 3
CHA: 5
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                6
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         6
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         3
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Archery                    : 1 [Bows]               Pool: 5 (7)
Assensing                  : 4                      Pool: 7
Climbing (Athletics Group)                  : 1                      Pool: 2
Con(Influence Group)                        : 1                      Pool: 6
Counterspelling            : 4                      Pool: 5
Dodge                      : 4                      Pool: 7
Etiquette(Influence Group)                   : 1                      Pool: 6
Gymnastics (Athletics Group)                : 1                      Pool: 5
Leadership(Influence Group)                  : 1                      Pool: 6
Negotiation (Influence Group)                : 1                      Pool: 6
Running (Athletics Group)                   : 1                      Pool: 2
Spellcasting               : 4                      Pool: 5
Summoning                  : 1                      Pool: 2
Swimming(Athletics Group)                   : 1                      Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat             : 6                      Pool: 10

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Hung Out to Dry
Low Pain Tolerance
Mystic Adept
Records on File (Renraku)
SINner (Standard) (UCAS)
The Warrior's Way

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (10))
[Elemental] Aura (Light)   DV: (F÷2)+3
Detect [Life Form], Extended (Spirits) DV: (F÷2)+1
Fashion                    DV: (F÷2)
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1

== Powers ==
Critical Strike Rating: 5
Elemental Strike (Light)
Killing Hands

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Armor ==
SecureTech Shin Guards    0/1
Vashon Island: Steampunk Dressing Gown (Ensemble)6/5


== Weapons ==
Bow (Rating 3)
   +Laser Sight
   +Personalized Grip
   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 1
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 9P   AP: -   RC: 0

== Martial Arts ==
Boxing
   ++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
   ++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
Karate
   ++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks

== Gear ==
Ammo: Arrow (Bows) Rating 3 x10
Sustaining Focus (Health) (bonded) Rating 3
Sustaining Focus (Manipulation) (bonded) Rating 3
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Thrass on <05-15-12/2256:38>
use the 8BP to get a contact...
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: JustADude on <05-16-12/0504:04>
...Mind over Matter charisma-> strength...

As mentioned in other threads, this doesn't work.

MoM only substitutes the rating during tests, and the general consensus is that your damage isn't a test.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-16-12/0649:49>
...Mind over Matter charisma-> strength...

As mentioned in other threads, this doesn't work.

MoM only substitutes the rating during tests, and the general consensus is that your damage isn't a test.

Not only that, but your Strength determines how much you can carry. A character with STR 1 would only be able to carry 10 kilograms, which probably isn't enough to carry the weight of their own armor and weapons.



EDIT:

Since others have put forth Mystic Adept builds, I figured I'd put forth a full Adept one, since the character concept seems to be all about the ghost-punching rather than spellcasting.

I was just going to build it as a human since no metatype was specified, but then I decided that the Strength and Body boosts of an ork would come too much in handy.


Ork (20 BP)

Attributes: (200) BP

BOD: 5
AGI: 5
REA: 4 (6)
STR: 5
CHA: 3
INT: 4
LOG: 3
WILL: 4


Special Attributes: (60 BP)

MAGIC: 5
EDGE: 3

Qualities: (-15 BP)

Adept (5 BP)
The Warrior's Way (10 BP)
Martial Arts (Karate) (5 BP)
SINner (-5 BP)
Pacificst (-5 BP)  (she hasn't entirely abandoned her principles in the shadows)
Gremlins Lvl 2 (-10 BP)  (the reason she does things the low tech way)
Hung Out to Dry (-10 BP)  (goblinization sucks when you're Japanese)
Distinctive Style (-5 BP) (tendency to add Shinto charms to gear)


Powers:

Improved Reflexes Lvl 2  (2 PP)*
Killing Hands (0.5 PP)
Critical Strike Lvl 5 (1 PP)*
Astral Perception (1 PP)
Elemental Strike (one element, your choice) (0.5 PP)

* = 25% discount for Warrior's Way quality


Skills: (114 BP)

Unarmed Combat  5 (Karate +2)
Archery 4 (Bows +2)
Athletics Group 3
Perception 4
Assensing 4 (Spirits +2)
Influence Group 1

Knowledge Skills: (21 Free)

Japanese N
English 3

Shinto Traditions 3
Comparative Religion 3
Martial Arts 3
Japanese Corporate Culture 3
Astral Threats 3
Local Temples & Dojos 3


Martial Arts: (2 BP)

Karate: +1 DV Unarmed Combat
-Maneuver: Disarm


Contacts: (9 BP)
Shinto Priest (Loyalty 4/Connections 1)
Fixer (Loyalty 1/Connections 3)


Resources: 50,000 nuyen (10 BP)

(It would take longer than I have at the moment to do a full gear listing, but here's a few good must-haves....)

Bow, Str Min 5 (500 nuyen)
Arrows x 30 (150 nuyen)
Hammerheads x 30 (150 nuyen)
Incendiary Heads x 5 (275 nuyen)

Pistol Crossbow (250 nuyen)
Bolts x 10 (30 nuyen)

(I confess that I don't really know all the archery must-haves)

Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Body Suit  (1,600 nuyen)
Urban Explorer Jumpsuit  (500 nuyen)   (consider the Riot Armor as a possible alternate or future purchase)

Micro-Transceiver, Rating 4 (800 nuyen)
-Encryption, Rating 4 (400 nuyen)
Respirator Rating 6 (150 nuyen)
Survival Kit (100 nuyen)
Standard Rope, 100 meters (50 nuyen) (everybody needs rope!)

...and so on and so forth. You know the drill.

Jeez, I kind of want to play this character now. She seems like she'd be lots of fun!
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Kontact on <05-16-12/0903:22>
An attack of will is what a mundane is stuck with.  An adept is much better off using killing hands and a normal unarmed attack - much better dice pool, and with things like critical strike, much better damage as well.  The only problem with an adept spirit puncher is that they can only do this well against materialized spirits.  For astral spirits, they run into problems - they need astral sight to see them, then astral combat to fight them (typically a lower dice pool), and they are stuck in their meat body while their opponent can move in any direction, including up.

I recall dual natured types, like those assensing, using unarmed in the place of astral combat for swacking foes..
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-16-12/1413:55>
You have three basic problems to overcome:

1) Punching spirits isn't very good, because they tend to have very high melee defense.

2) Spirits generally have no reason to get into punch range.

3) Unaugmented adepts aren't very good.

TheNarrator's build is a good example of this problem - that character will lose a fistfight to a medium-force spirit almost every time. They have 12 dice to hit, 13 dice melee defense, 9 DV + elemental effect punches, and you could probably fix the armor to be 13/11. Take a Force 6 Fire Spirit as an example opponent: it has 14 dice melee attack, 15 dice melee defense, and it hits you with Engulf+Energy Aura for 10 DV fire + immobilization and continuing damage. That's not good odds at all.

There are three basic ways to solve this that I can see.

One is to make a punchy adept who is good at punching things in general and who has spirit-punching as an option. They might not be that great at fighting spirits but if you don't overspecialize at least they won't be bad at other things. You really need to be augmented, though, or you aren't going to stand much of a chance.

Another is to make a punchy adept who is actually specialized in facepunching spirits and good at it. You can do this, but you have to buy expensive things and it will leave you kinda meh at other things. You still want to be augmented though. The core thing you need is a way to actually hit spirits, which means pumping your attack roll and more importantly using Distance Strike because that prevents spirits from using their melee defense pool (they just defend with Reaction, not Reaction+Melee Skill).

Another option is to make a punchy mystic adept. You can pick up things that make you better at dealing with spirits like Mana Static and having spirits of your own to back you up. This is the way to actually be good at fighting spirits, but it does run into the problem that the actual punchy part of it is somewhat superfluous and generally less good than just shooting them. Or stunbolting them, really. But you can do it and it will work, and you'll also not be bad at other things, like punching tanks in half.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Herr Novak on <05-16-12/1526:18>
Do Bonuses from different Martial Arts stack? When I have Boxing (+1 DV) and Karate (+1 DV) can I use +2DV? And can I use it in any case, even if not using that Martial Art like can I use the bonus form Boxing when doing a kick attack?
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: JustADude on <05-16-12/1941:26>
Do Bonuses from different Martial Arts stack? When I have Boxing (+1 DV) and Karate (+1 DV) can I use +2DV? And can I use it in any case, even if not using that Martial Art like can I use the bonus form Boxing when doing a kick attack?

They do indeed stack and, by RAW, yes even Boxing would add to Kick Attack, despite the fact that Boxing has no leg strikes at all.

The only limit is a hard-cap of +3 DV from Martial Arts, period.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-16-12/2055:51>
You have three basic problems to overcome:

1) Punching spirits isn't very good, because they tend to have very high melee defense.

2) Spirits generally have no reason to get into punch range.

3) Unaugmented adepts aren't very good.

TheNarrator's build is a good example of this problem - that character will lose a fistfight to a medium-force spirit almost every time. They have 12 dice to hit, 13 dice melee defense, 9 DV + elemental effect punches, and you could probably fix the armor to be 13/11. Take a Force 6 Fire Spirit as an example opponent: it has 14 dice melee attack, 15 dice melee defense, and it hits you with Engulf+Energy Aura for 10 DV fire + immobilization and continuing damage. That's not good odds at all.

There are three basic ways to solve this that I can see.

One is to make a punchy adept who is good at punching things in general and who has spirit-punching as an option. They might not be that great at fighting spirits but if you don't overspecialize at least they won't be bad at other things. You really need to be augmented, though, or you aren't going to stand much of a chance.

Another is to make a punchy adept who is actually specialized in facepunching spirits and good at it. You can do this, but you have to buy expensive things and it will leave you kinda meh at other things. You still want to be augmented though. The core thing you need is a way to actually hit spirits, which means pumping your attack roll and more importantly using Distance Strike because that prevents spirits from using their melee defense pool (they just defend with Reaction, not Reaction+Melee Skill).

Another option is to make a punchy mystic adept. You can pick up things that make you better at dealing with spirits like Mana Static and having spirits of your own to back you up. This is the way to actually be good at fighting spirits, but it does run into the problem that the actual punchy part of it is somewhat superfluous and generally less good than just shooting them. Or stunbolting them, really. But you can do it and it will work, and you'll also not be bad at other things, like punching tanks in half.

This is all what I was worried about. :/ Basically the spirit medium type would be better at this task?

I think as long as I'm meeting the criteria of:

A: Evil Spirit fighter

and

B:Shinto

then the player will be happy especially if I explain that punching burning ghosts is a recipe for burning death. Probably better as this team has a cybered martial artist already, and a technomancer so ranged spell support would be good. Still a bummer though.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-16-12/2108:24>
Probably the single best way to beat spirits is:

1) Other spirits

2) Mana Static. Mana Static is very nasty, because there's no real defense against it and it works on both the Astral and Physical, regardless of which plane you cast it on.

Shinto is a perfectly good tradition. If you want to be Shinto, specialize in fighting spirits, and aren't pick about exactly how, the best way overall is probably going to be an Elf Charisma mage (probably a lot like the Spirit Medium archetype), but specialize in Manipulation (and of course have Mana Static).

There are various other ways to go but ultimately they boil down to "be good at killing things, spirits are things" whereas this at least gives you a fairly unique anti-spirit weapon.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-16-12/2145:31>
You can also take mana combat spells like Stunball (great for any magician as a way to easily mass-K.O. multiple enemies), and the "Slay [Metatype/Species]" spell as "Slay Spirit". Low Drain, effective on both physical and astral planes, only resisted by Willpower + Counterspelling. (Which, admittedly, would be better for many spirits than it's likely to be for most other enemies, since they'll often have 2 x Force.)

What book is Mana Static in?

Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Glyph on <05-16-12/2158:34>
I recall dual natured types, like those assensing, using unarmed in the place of astral combat for swacking foes..
You're thinking of natural weapons, like drakes have.  When assensing, the skill is astral combat.  I prefer the old SR3 rule, where you did use your meatbody skill when only astrally perceiving, myself.  The way the current rules are, an adept is actually better off fighting only materialized spirits, and leaving the astral stuff to mages.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-16-12/2216:54>
I just checked the book, and it seems like you're right. That's unfortunate, in my opinion. Somebody who's only astrally perceiving is still in their physical body, and should use the skills they would use in their physical body.

Well, that's a bit of a nail in the coffin for the spirit-puncher idea, if they can't use their martial arts skills to attack spirits that might be hiding in the astral. Might as well go full on magician for an exorcist.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-17-12/1320:34>
A straight magician build for a Shinto priestess character who can trash spirits and provide good mage support to a group, as well as be a decent face.

The Slaughter Spirits spell will let her waste all the spirits in a room while leaving the metahumans untouched, while Stunball will neutralize anything living non-lethally. Heal, Detox and Cure Disease will help restore teammates to full health and keep them alive. Levitate is handy for anyone, and Increase Reflexes will let the character go three times a round. Assensing with a specialization in spirits will let her identify her spirit adversaries. I passed on Binding... I figured Shinto would be one of those traditions that would consider it unethical.

Gremlins provided a good excuse to keep the equipment pretty simple. The other qualities should provide good roleplaying opportunities as well.

EDIT: Decided that the two extra dice for drain wasn't worth the BP cost of being an elf when there were more skills and spells needed, and honestly this concept works better for a human anyway.



Attributes:    (200 BP)

BOD: 3    (20 BP)
AGI: 3        (20 BP)
REA: 3        (20 BP)
STR: 3        (20 BP)
CHA: 5    (40 BP)
LOG: 3    (20 BP)
INT: 3        (20 BP)
WILL: 5    (40 BP)


Special Attributes:    (50 BP)

MAGIC: 5    (40 BP)
EDGE: 3    (10 BP)


Qualities: (-20 BP)

Magician (15 BP)
SINner (-5 BP)
Pacifist (-5 BP) (she hasn't entirely abandoned her principles in the shadows)
Gremlins Lvl 2 (-10 BP) (the reason she does things the low tech way)
Distinctive Style (-5 BP) (tendency to add Shinto charms to gear)
Prejudiced (Orks/Trolls, Biased) (-10 BP) (standard Japanese dislike of the goblinized)


Spells: (30 BP)

Stunball
Slaughter Spirit
Cure Disease
Mana Barrier
Levitate
Increased Reflexes
Heal
Detox
Improved Invisibility
Physical Mask


Skills:     (118 BP)

Spellcasting 5
Counterspelling 5
Summoning 4
Assensing 4 (Spirits +2)
Influence Group 1
Pistols 1 (Semi-Auto +2)
Perception 3 (Astral +2)
Infiltration 3 (Urban +2)


Knowledge Skills: (18 Free)

Japanese N
English 3

Shinto Traditions 3
Comparative Religion 3
Japanese Corporate Culture 3
Astral Threats 3
Local Temples & Lodges 3


Contacts: (9 BP)

Shinto Priest (Loyalty 4/Connections 1)
Fixer (Loyalty 1/Connections 3)


Resources: 50,000 nuyen (10 BP)

Form-Fitting Body Armor, Full Body Suit (1,600 nuyen)
Lined Coat, Soft-Weave (770 nuyen)
Shin Guards (150 nuyen)

Colt M1991 (300 nuyen) (old enough to be unaffected by Gremlins; an heirloom of some sort, I assume)
Spare Magazines x 3 (15 nuyen)
Regular Ammo x 30 (60 nuyen)
Survival Knife (50 nuyen)

Micro-Transceiver, Rating 3 (600 nuyen)
-Encryption, Rating 3 (300 nuyen)
Respirator Rating 6 (150 nuyen)
Survival Kit (100 nuyen)
Standard Rope, 100 meters (50 nuyen)
Medkit, Rating 6 (600 nuyen)
Endoscope (250 nuyen)
Flashlight (25 nuyen)
Lightstick x 4 (20 nuyen)
Backpack (250 nuyen)

Dodge Scoot (3,000 nuyen)
Spoof Chip (500 nuyen)

Medium Lifestyle (5,000 nuyen)
Fake SIN, Rating 3 (3,000 nuyen)
Fake License (handgun), Rating 3 (300 nuyen)
Fake License (magic), Rating 3 (300 nuyen)

Novatech Airware with Iris Orb OS (2,250 nuyen)
Monocle, Rating 1, w/ Image Link (50 nuyen)
Basic User Program Suite (300 nuyen)
Earbuds, Rating 1 (10 nuyen)

Sustaining Focus (Health), Force 3 (30,000 nuyen)



Bonded Foci: (3 BP)

Sustaining Foci, Force 3
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-17-12/2257:02>
Took a lot of the ideas here back to the player and we worked out some ideas and some heavy character hooks (ie the wanted and big regret qualities)

Some of the spells i think are iffy (I'm looking at you spirit zapper) but i think its pretty solid.

Thoughts?

== Info ==
Street Name: Starchild
Name: Courtney Takahashi
Movement: 10/25
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Human Female Age 23
Height 5'9" Weight 153
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 10
Lift/Carry: 6 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 1
CHA: 5
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         10
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Assensing: 4                      Pool: 9
Con  (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Counterspelling: 4                      Pool: 9
Etiquette (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Infiltration: 1                      Pool: 3
Leadership (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Negotiation (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Perception: 4                      Pool: 9
Spellcasting: 6 [Manipulation]       Pool: 11 (13)
Summoning: 1 [Fire]               Pool: 6 (8)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Astronomy: 4 [Deep Space Observation] Pool: 6 (8)
Cooking: 1 [Japanese]           Pool: 6 (8)
English: 6 [Speak]              Pool: 11 (13)
Japanese: N                      Pool: 0
Japanese Corporate Culture: 2                      Pool: 4
Shinto Traditions: 4 [Kami History]       Pool: 6 (8)

== Contacts ==
Fixer (4, 1)
Shinto Priest (1, 4)

== Qualities ==
Big Regret
Magician
Mentor Spirit: Amaterasu (Fire-Bringer)
Pacifist (Minor)
Records on File (Renraku)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
SINner (Standard) (UCAS)
Wanted (UCAS)

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (10))
Critter Form [Critter] (White Wolf) DV: (F÷2)+1
Fashion                    DV: (F÷2)
Heal                       DV: (Damage Value)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Laser                      DV: (F÷2)+3
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Static (Limited)      DV: (F÷2)+4
Mob Mind (Limited)         DV: (F÷2)+4
Slaughter [Metatype/Species] (Spirit) DV: (F÷2)+1
Spirit Zapper              DV: (F÷2)+2
Stunball                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 6
   +Nonconductivity 6
Vashon Island: Steampunk Corset/Vest (Ensemble)7/7
   +AR Enhanced

== Commlink ==
CMT Clip (1, 1, 1, 3)
   +Vector Xim
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim

== Gear ==
AR Makeup
Betel x10
Contact Lenses Rating 2
   +Flare Compensation
   +Vision Magnification
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Skinlink
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
Fake License (Carry Foci) Rating 3
Fake License (Driver's) Rating 3
Fake License (Practice Magic) Rating 3
Fake SIN (Laura St. John) Rating 3
Glasses Rating 4
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Ultrasound
   +Image Link
Manipulation Fetish x2
Medkit Rating 6
Power Focus (bonded) Rating 4
Psyche
Red Mescaline x2
Simrig
Steampunk Accessories
Sustaining Focus (Health) (bonded) Rating 3

== Vehicles ==
Mercury Comet (Sedan)
   +GridLink
   +GridLink Override
   +Vehicle Sensor

Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-18-12/0059:15>
Took a lot of the ideas here back to the player and we worked out some ideas and some heavy character hooks (ie the wanted and big regret qualities)

Some of the spells i think are iffy (I'm looking at you spirit zapper) but i think its pretty solid.

Thoughts?

== Info ==
Street Name: Starchild
Name: Courtney Takahashi
Movement: 10/25
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Human Female Age 23
Height 5'9" Weight 153
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 10
Lift/Carry: 6 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 1
CHA: 5
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         10
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Assensing: 4                      Pool: 9
Con  (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Counterspelling: 4                      Pool: 9
Etiquette (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Infiltration: 1                      Pool: 3
Leadership (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Negotiation (group): 1                      Pool: 6
Perception: 4                      Pool: 9
Spellcasting: 6 [Manipulation]       Pool: 11 (13)
Summoning: 1 [Fire]               Pool: 6 (8)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Astronomy: 4 [Deep Space Observation] Pool: 6 (8)
Cooking: 1 [Japanese]           Pool: 6 (8)
English: 6 [Speak]              Pool: 11 (13)
Japanese: N                      Pool: 0
Japanese Corporate Culture: 2                      Pool: 4
Shinto Traditions: 4 [Kami History]       Pool: 6 (8)

== Contacts ==
Fixer (4, 1)
Shinto Priest (1, 4)

== Qualities ==
Big Regret
Magician
Mentor Spirit: Amaterasu (Fire-Bringer)
Pacifist (Minor)
Records on File (Renraku)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
SINner (Standard) (UCAS)
Wanted (UCAS)

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (10))
Critter Form [Critter] (White Wolf) DV: (F÷2)+1
Fashion                    DV: (F÷2)
Heal                       DV: (Damage Value)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Laser                      DV: (F÷2)+3
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Static (Limited)      DV: (F÷2)+4
Mob Mind (Limited)         DV: (F÷2)+4
Slaughter [Metatype/Species] (Spirit) DV: (F÷2)+1
Spirit Zapper              DV: (F÷2)+2
Stunball                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 6
   +Nonconductivity 6
Vashon Island: Steampunk Corset/Vest (Ensemble)7/7
   +AR Enhanced

== Commlink ==
CMT Clip (1, 1, 1, 3)
   +Vector Xim
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim

== Gear ==
AR Makeup
Betel x10
Contact Lenses Rating 2
   +Flare Compensation
   +Vision Magnification
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Skinlink
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
Fake License (Carry Foci) Rating 3
Fake License (Driver's) Rating 3
Fake License (Practice Magic) Rating 3
Fake SIN (Laura St. John) Rating 3
Glasses Rating 4
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Ultrasound
   +Image Link
Manipulation Fetish x2
Medkit Rating 6
Power Focus (bonded) Rating 4
Psyche
Red Mescaline x2
Simrig
Steampunk Accessories
Sustaining Focus (Health) (bonded) Rating 3

== Vehicles ==
Mercury Comet (Sedan)
   +GridLink
   +GridLink Override
   +Vehicle Sensor


I'd lower Body to 3 and put 1 into Logic so the character is at least average intelligence and 1 into Strength to avoid the GM aggro a 1 stat can draw.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-18-12/0951:53>
Some of the spells i think are iffy (I'm looking at you spirit zapper) but i think its pretty solid.

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (10))
Critter Form [Critter] (White Wolf) DV: (F÷2)+1
Fashion                    DV: (F÷2)
Heal                       DV: (Damage Value)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Laser                      DV: (F÷2)+3
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Static (Limited)      DV: (F÷2)+4
Mob Mind (Limited)         DV: (F÷2)+4
Slaughter [Metatype/Species] (Spirit) DV: (F÷2)+1
Spirit Zapper              DV: (F÷2)+2
Stunball                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1

Critter Form and Spirit Zapper are both for silly. Shapechange is not a bad spell but I'm having a hard time seeing when turning into a wolf is going to help this character. Spirit Zapper is a bad spell.

My only major complaints are:
1) You are a Charisma mage who isn't an elf and isn't getting anything in particular out of not being an elf. Cut 10 points, change to Elf, keep your Agility at 2, and lose an Edge. I would probably lose Critter Form, Spirit Zapper, Fashion, and see if you can cut 5000 in gear (maybe a less fancy vehicle), or cut Perception to 1 and then specialize it in Sight. Not being an elf is long-term sadness as a Charisma-tradition mage, and not being an elf so you can be a 2 edge human is double sadness. It's worth some short-term losses to change that.

2) You are specialized in summoning Fire spirits. This is a rather serious problem because the Shinto tradition can't summon Fire spirits, and a minor problem because you can do better; Fire is only an OK spirit type (in that they are second best at murder and not really good at anything else). Air (best at murder, good at some other things) and Man (most flexible in general, because you can give it innate spells) are probably your best choices for spirit type.

Of your mentor spirit options (+Manipulation is really important), Raven is far and away the best choice (granting +2 Air). Adversary (+2 CS) is a slightly less good choice but not unreasonable. Sky Father and Spider give bonuses to useful schools you don't currently know much of (Detection and Illusion) but you could easily retool the spells list to make better use of them. Dragon gives a very meh Negotiation bonus but it isn't useless to you.

I know Okami is pretty rad but I don't think any of those mentors fit Amateratsu at all (really, Amateratsu should be either Sun or Great Mother anyways; Fire-bringer is a real stretch).

While I am not super knowledgeable about Shinto, I think Raven can probably be Fujin, since he's a god of wind and creation and also kind of a dick. Dragon should be Ryujin. Spider could be Omoikane. Sky Father is probably Izanagi. Adversary I think is best fit by Mikaboshi.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-18-12/1208:53>
Street Magic seems to feel that Fire-Bringer is a good choice for Amaterasu.

Quote from: Street Magic, page 184
Well-known kami include: Amaterasu, the sun goddess
(Fire-bringer, Phoenix, or Sun); Izanagi, the creator god (Dark
King); Izanami, the dead goddess (Dark Goddess); Tsukuyomi,
the moon god (a male version of Moon Maiden); Susanoo, god
of sea and storms (Sea or Shark); Maneki-neko, the beckoning
cat (Cat); Hachiman, divine protector of Japan (Wise Warrior).


As for whether or not to be an elf, I would assume that the player did not wish to play an elf. Especially if they're playing a character from Japan, a virulently anti-meta nation. And honestly, having made something similar earlier in the thread, I wound up feeling that the two extra dice for drain from being an elf weren't worth the 30 build points that could otherwise be used to expand the repetoire of skills and spells.

I have to agree with you in thinking that Fashion and Spirit Zapper don't seem like particularly useful choices, just based on their names. (What book are those in?) If Spirit Zapper is for zapping spirits, then wouldn't Slaughter Spirit already do the job better for less drain? And if changing the appearance of her clothes is important, then what does Fashion do that Physical Mask wouldn't do better? And Shapechange is more versatile than Critter Form for only one more point of drain.

As for Mana Static, now that I've read it I can definitely see why it would ruin a spirit's day, but it's a bit of a double edged sword: the caster's magic would be reduced by the same amount. I suppose against a particularly powerful spirit, it might be worth disabling her own magic to weaken it enough that the other runners could finish it off non-magically.

Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-18-12/1247:10>
Yeah, but that section of Street Magic is...not good, and I recommend ignoring it. The Voodoo section is particularly egregiously poorly-researched, as whoever did it failed to note the difference between a family of loa (eg, Erzulie) and a member of that family (eg, Erzulie Dantor).

I wouldn't assume the player didn't want to play an elf. Lots of people go with human because they are assuming humans are the default and are good at anything, which isn't true, and I didn't see anything about wanting to be a human, specifically, from Jackleg Rooster. And no, Elf is totally worth it if you are a Charisma tradition mage.

Spirit Zapper is a really really restricted form of Mana Barrier that only works on spirits, but damages them if they try to punch their way through it with physical attacks. It's not that you couldn't possibly use it, just that it's far too narrow.

Mana Static is an AE. You don't have to catch yourself in it. Saying that it's a double edged sword because you reduce your own magic is like saying Stunball is a double edged sword because you do stun damage to yourself.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-18-12/1351:45>
Mana Static is an AE. You don't have to catch yourself in it. Saying that it's a double edged sword because you reduce your own magic is like saying Stunball is a double edged sword because you do stun damage to yourself.

I was thinking that casting into a Background Count area from outside it reduced the spell's Force, but I can't actually find that written anywhere. So I guess it doesn't affect the caster unless they walk into where they're sustaining it. My bad.

Of course, there's nothing stopping the spirit from leaving the area of effect--and possibly getting into melee with the mage that just spammed it with background count--so the effects might only be useful for an initiative pass. (The up side is that for that pass, its Immunity to Normal Weapons is drastically reduced, so the street sam can wreak it.)

It definitely has its uses (and with the Filtering metamagic it becomes awesome; you can basically ruin the day of anything magical in the area while remaining unaffected). Makes a good de-buff spell against magical adversaries so that mundane allies can finish them off. And if you want to hide from astral tracking, then where better than in a miniature background count?

(If Spirit Zapper is just a spirit-only Mana Barrier, then one might as well get Mana Barrier. When one can only know 12 spells, they might as well be versatile spells.)
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-18-12/1756:01>
Of course, there's nothing stopping the spirit from leaving the area of effect--and possibly getting into melee with the mage that just spammed it with background count--so the effects might only be useful for an initiative pass. (The up side is that for that pass, its Immunity to Normal Weapons is drastically reduced, so the street sam can wreak it.)

It definitely has its uses (and with the Filtering metamagic it becomes awesome; you can basically ruin the day of anything magical in the area while remaining unaffected). Makes a good de-buff spell against magical adversaries so that mundane allies can finish them off. And if you want to hide from astral tracking, then where better than in a miniature background count?

(If Spirit Zapper is just a spirit-only Mana Barrier, then one might as well get Mana Barrier. When one can only know 12 spells, they might as well be versatile spells.)

One of the big advantages of mana static is that any spirit that gets reduced to 0 or less force get bamfed. So if you can get 6 hits, you can take out one or more force 6 or less spirits - and unlike Stunball, they get nothing to resist it. It also bombs their initiative when they lose Force, so if you're going up against something like a force 10 spirit, when it gets cut down to force 4 your buddies should have plenty time to shoot it in the face.

I'm with you on Spirit Zapper; that's exactly my opinion.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-19-12/0943:27>
So if you can get 6 hits, you can take out one or more force 6 or less spirits - and unlike Stunball, they get nothing to resist it.
True enough. Of course, getting 6 hits means casting at Force 6... which means taking 7 boxes of drain. Even an elf with maxed charisma and willpower doesn't have a 50/50 chance of resisting that much.

Like I said, there's definitely times that you'd want to bust out Mana Static, but it's probably not something you want to cast casually, because every time you do you're almost certainly going to take damage and/or spend Edge. Whereas Slaughter Spirit at Force 5 is something that this character could cast repeatedly at little risk.



Anyway, getting back to the topic of the character, I think it looks pretty good. The only things I'd probably do different if I were you besides (as suggested above) switching some of the super-specific spells like Fashion and Spirit Zapper for more versatile ones would be to move one point of Body to Strength (because a STR 1 character is so weak that I'd worry about them collapsing under the weight of their own gear) and one point of Intuition to Logic (because a high Intuition is great and all, but some people might balk at playing a character with a below-average IQ).

(You won't even have to change armor if you pay an extra 10% to make it Soft-Weave.)
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-21-12/1811:03>
sorry for the super delay in my reply. Real life has been a real drag lately.

Critter Form and Spirit Zapper are both for silly. Shapechange is not a bad spell but I'm having a hard time seeing when turning into a wolf is going to help this character. Spirit Zapper is a bad spell.

My only major complaints are:
1) You are a Charisma mage who isn't an elf and isn't getting anything in particular out of not being an elf. Cut 10 points, change to Elf, keep your Agility at 2, and lose an Edge. I would probably lose Critter Form, Spirit Zapper, Fashion, and see if you can cut 5000 in gear (maybe a less fancy vehicle), or cut Perception to 1 and then specialize it in Sight. Not being an elf is long-term sadness as a Charisma-tradition mage, and not being an elf so you can be a 2 edge human is double sadness. It's worth some short-term losses to change that.

2) You are specialized in summoning Fire spirits. This is a rather serious problem because the Shinto tradition can't summon Fire spirits, and a minor problem because you can do better; Fire is only an OK spirit type (in that they are second best at murder and not really good at anything else). Air (best at murder, good at some other things) and Man (most flexible in general, because you can give it innate spells) are probably your best choices for spirit type.

Of your mentor spirit options (+Manipulation is really important), Raven is far and away the best choice (granting +2 Air). Adversary (+2 CS) is a slightly less good choice but not unreasonable. Sky Father and Spider give bonuses to useful schools you don't currently know much of (Detection and Illusion) but you could easily retool the spells list to make better use of them. Dragon gives a very meh Negotiation bonus but it isn't useless to you.

I know Okami is pretty rad but I don't think any of those mentors fit Amateratsu at all (really, Amateratsu should be either Sun or Great Mother anyways; Fire-bringer is a real stretch).

While I am not super knowledgeable about Shinto, I think Raven can probably be Fujin, since he's a god of wind and creation and also kind of a dick. Dragon should be Ryujin. Spider could be Omoikane. Sky Father is probably Izanagi. Adversary I think is best fit by Mikaboshi.


Tres embarassing about the fire spirits. Forgot to look back at the tradition after looking through mentors.

I had looked at Raven and thought it good except that her character as imagined is the exact opposite of a jackass. Of course not all mentor-mage relationships need to be amicable. If a god literally came down to speak to you its rude to be like "no thanks. you're mean." I think ill make the disadvantage the opposite to show this animosity between them. Something like "Willpower + Charisma (3) test to not help someone in need even if dangerous. (Stabilizing a dying corp sec guard for instance)

I hadn't specified a metatype as i was working to get elf but the player wants human all the way so it is what it is.

got agreement on the spells so what can i fill those three spots with? mana barrier I guess for theme but then what? Influence i suppose for something more subtle than mob mind when its appropriate. hmmm...is the combat sense spell worth knowing? (and owning a sustaining focus for?)
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-21-12/2031:48>
got agreement on the spells so what can i fill those three spots with? mana barrier I guess for theme but then what? Influence i suppose for something more subtle than mob mind when its appropriate. hmmm...is the combat sense spell worth knowing? (and owning a sustaining focus for?)

No particular problem with Mob Mind from a gameplay standpoint, in my opinion, other than that the drain is rather high. (It's another one fo those "you're almost certianly taking damage" ones.) If it's a case that the character might not be willing to use that spell because they consider that sort of blatant mind control unethical, then yeah, Influence is a good alternative. It's more like Jedi Mind Trick than Dominate Person, and the drain is low.

Mana Barrier is more versatile than Spirit Zapper, with lower drain.

Fashion is a bit of a head-scratcher for me, since it's basically "change the look of clothes". Sure, there's potential uses for that. (Creating disguises in only the time it takes to make the spell permanent, for one. Or just for fun.) But for just one more box of drain and having to sustain it, you can get Physical Mask and be able to change someone's appearance entirely: clothes, face, metatype, gender, the whole nine yards.

I had looked at Raven and thought it good except that her character as imagined is the exact opposite of a jackass. Of course not all mentor-mage relationships need to be amicable. If a god literally came down to speak to you its rude to be like "no thanks. you're mean." I think ill make the disadvantage the opposite to show this animosity between them. Something like "Willpower + Charisma (3) test to not help someone in need even if dangerous. (Stabilizing a dying corp sec guard for instance)
If the mentor spirit doesn't fit the character, then by all means feel free to switch to a new one. The characterization aspect of a mentor spirit is more important than getting the two best bonuses.

I thought that there was a mentor spirit with a disadvantage like the one you created, but these were the closest I could find. Or you could make your own, if you're the GM.

Dragonslayer gets +2 to Combat spells and +2 to a Social skill, but -1 if they break a promise.

Wise Warrior gets +2 to Combat and Detection spells, but -1 if they act dishonorably.

Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-21-12/2128:07>
I'd actually pick the mentor spirit before making spell choices. If you are going with reverse Raven (I actually think it's better balanced; two useful bonuses for "look out for number one?" really?) Physical Mask and Trid Phantasm are both good, widely useful spells. I think you were probably avoiding Illusion because of Fire-Bringer.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-21-12/2252:25>
k. switched the spells around. changed laser to frost for theme pairing with air spirits (since there's not air element...unless i did blast....hmm). Changed the street name for this reason also.

Anyway,
== Info ==
Street Name: Miyuki
Name: Courtney Takahashi
Movement: 10/25
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Human Female Age 23
Height 5'9" Weight 153
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 10
Lift/Carry: 6 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 2
REA: 3
STR: 1
CHA: 5
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                8
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         10
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Assensing                  : 4                      Pool: 9
Con                        : 1                      Pool: 6
Counterspelling            : 4                      Pool: 9
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 6
Infiltration               : 1                      Pool: 3
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 6
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 6
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 9
Spellcasting               : 6 [Manipulation]       Pool: 11 (13)
Summoning                  : 1 [Air]                Pool: 6 (8)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Astronomy                  : 4 [Deep Space Observation] Pool: 6 (8)
Cooking                    : 1 [Japanese]           Pool: 6 (8)
English                    : 6 [Speak]              Pool: 11 (13)
Japanese                   : N                      Pool: 0
Japanese Corporate Culture : 2                      Pool: 4
Shinto Traditions          : 4 [Kami History]       Pool: 6 (8)

== Contacts ==
Fixer (4, 1)
Shinto Priest (1, 4)

== Qualities ==
Big Regret
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Raven)
+2 Manipulation, +2 for Air Spirits
Willpower+Charisma(3) test to not help someone in dire need even at personal risk (houserule)
Pacifist (Minor)
Records on File (Renraku, former corp kid/employee)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
SINner (Standard) (UCAS)
Wanted (UCAS)

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (10))
Frost                      DV: (F÷2)+3
Heal                       DV: (Damage Value)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Barrier               DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Static (Limited)      DV: (F÷2)+4
Mob Mind (Limited)         DV: (F÷2)+4
Physical Mask              DV: (F÷2)+1
Slaughter [Metatype/Species] (Spirit) DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunball                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1
Trid Phantasm              DV: (F÷2)+3

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 6
   +Nonconductivity 6
Vashon Island: Steampunk Corset/Vest (Ensemble)7/7
   +AR Enhanced

== Commlink ==
CMT Clip (1, 1, 1, 3)
   +Vector Xim
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim

== Gear ==
AR Makeup
Betel x10
Contact Lenses Rating 2
   +Flare Compensation
   +Vision Magnification
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Skinlink
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
Fake License (Carry Foci) Rating 3
Fake License (Driver's) Rating 3
Fake License (Practice Magic) Rating 3
Fake SIN (Laura St. John) Rating 3
Glasses Rating 4
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Ultrasound
   +Image Link
Manipulation Fetish x2
Medkit Rating 6
Power Focus (bonded) Rating 4
Psyche
Red Mescaline x2
Simrig
Steampunk Accessories
Sustaining Focus (Health) (bonded) Rating 3

== Vehicles ==
Mercury Comet (Sedan)
   +GridLink
   +GridLink Override
   +Vehicle Sensor
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-21-12/2333:28>
You could go with Lightning Bolt or Ball Lightning for "air" element.  Good Sega Genesis video game used lightning for air--Chakan: The Forever Man.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: JustADude on <05-22-12/0130:48>
k. switched the spells around. changed laser to frost for theme pairing with air spirits (since there's not air element...unless i did blast....hmm).

Blast is pretty much a solid punch of wind, going from *THOOM* type blasts that knock you down at low Force trending towards *KABOOM* at higher levels.

Definitely qualifies as Air.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-22-12/0900:14>
Frost is F/2+2, not F/2+3, for drain.

You are slightly under-armored. Add PPP Forearm Guards and Shin Guards.

You only need one Manipulation fetish. They aren't unique to spells.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-22-12/0907:49>
You only need one Manipulation fetish. They aren't unique to spells.

They're cheap enough that it doesn't hurt to own a couple spares of the fetish types you use.
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on <05-22-12/2102:47>
k. switched the spells around. changed laser to frost for theme pairing with air spirits (since there's not air element...unless i did blast....hmm).


Blast is pretty much a solid punch of wind, going from *THOOM* type blasts that knock you down at low Force trending towards *KABOOM* at higher levels.

Definitely qualifies as Air.

Sold. Changed Frost to Boom.

On this wind theme i really wanna like poltergeist as an inside hurricane is awesome when one has a wind mentor. It just seems so...eh. (f/2)+3 drain for 2 stun DV resistible every combat TURN? The only upswing i can see is if the reaction+impact armor roll it mentions is it and cover does nothing since its debris flying everywhere.

seems it would be way cooler if the DV was the force and you just treat it like suppressive fire
Title: Re: Building a ghost puncher
Post by: UmaroVI on <05-22-12/2134:46>
Yeah, Poltergeist is awful. If you want a vaguely similar spell that isn't awful, Sound Cloud (the [Element] Cloud spell from WAR! with the Sound element - and it does need to be sound, not a different element) is not a bad spell.