Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: ShinigamiWolf on <06-18-12/1546:44>
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Ok, I normally actually throw up a full character sheet with background in mind and everything when I'm doing this...but....I am gonna be having a different person swing in as GM for a few months and give our current GM a break after two years of dedicated GMing. The new GM is pretty known for killing at least a player every session so I unfortunately am gonna have to go outside my comfort zone a little to make my character for his campaign. My current thoughts are for character concept. An Invisible Way adept, playing Urban Brawler. (From what I've been told, we have to all have a common background with a bit of skill set towards their background. Urban Brawlers are a team that plays basically capture the flag and other such objective based war games...fully loaded out like shadowrunners.). I was thinking of going Sniper/Infiltrator, trying to max dice for agility based skill sets. Main skills that I feel are gonna be a must for this character are as follows.
Longarms, Climbing, Gymnastics, Infiltration, Hardware, Lockpicking, Perception.
Those are pretty much what the character is gonna be best at...I also kinda wanna throw in Demolitions but am willing to give it up. Can anyone help give me some good ideas for a character concept based around this? Thrill Seeker and a mild addiction to Snuff and Cram are gonna most certainly show up in the negatives. Debt would be the rest. Pos is gonna be Adept and Invisible way. I wanna try and swing in at least Increased Reflexes level 1 or two for Adept powers.
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The way to max dice for agility-based skillsets is going to be to either max your Agility, or max your Logic and use Mind Over Matter. Both are viable options; the value of the Mind over Matter option depends on how many Logic-based skills you want. Hardware, Demolitions, and First Aid are all plenty useful. Either way, you are better off using some 'ware like all other adepts.
Invisible Way is one of the weakest ways; Unseen Hands is good (but you only want one of the skills it boosts for your character) but the reduced powers list is awful. Based on what you want to do, I can suggest the following Ways:
Artisan: has Improved Reflexes and lets you get a Logic version of Improved Physical Ability. If you are planning on the Mind over Matter route, it's a good choice. Item Attunement is a useful metamagic. The major drawback is that you do run short on powers to discount, but being able to discount Improved Reflexes means it still pays off well.
Warrior's Way: better list of powers, useless exclusive power, better metamagic powers. If you aren't going the Mind over Matter route, it's better than Artisan. If you are, it's debatable.
Also, how set on you are using Longarms? There are other ways to snipe that will leave you with more flexibility (Heavy Weapons and just assault cannon people for more damage but no silencing, or Automatics and use battle rifles for generally better damage [except versus vehicles] and less range). If you're sure about Longarms, though, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it.
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Well, I really think being able to silence the gun is gonna be extremely needed. Assault rifles wouldn't be a bad alternative..but I am gonna try and be the long range support kind of character. I've never hard maxxed a character so I am not sure I really wanna go the logic mind over matter route but I'll run some quick numbers on the artisan way thing real quick to see how it feels. (May go that route going human to have a large amount of bp...sounds nice). One question I do have...Adept power Improved Physical Attribute (I may be looking at the wrong thing..cause I didn't find Improved physical ability..unless you're talking individual skills?)
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So I'm looking at the character concept..and it would be 1.5 pp to waste to just make one skill better via a logic to agility converstion and an overall decrease in my agility based skills..I don't really much like that. It seems to get the same dice bp wise it'd be cheaper going my original route with heavy agility and fair logic..
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So I am thinking bout going Way of the Warrior, Increased Reflexes 2 and taking improved combat ability Longarms...now question, Does improved combat ability stack onto say Longarms 5 beyond the normal 6 maximum or how does that all work. If it does does taking longarms 3 improved longarms 3 make it six and save me bp or what exactly?
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My Batman homage http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7577.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7577.0) is a mind over matter build. Since you're not as worried about fist fighting it becomes a bit easier, but still requires some 'ware.
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 1
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 1
CHA: 3
INT: 3
LOG: 7 (10)
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 4
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 5.0
Initiative: 8 (10)
IP: 1 (3)
Astral Initiative: 6
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 3
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 0 Pool: 2
Animal Training : 0 Pool: 2
Archery : 0 Pool: 9
Armorer : 0 Pool: 10
Artisan : 0 Pool: 2
Automatics : 0 Pool: 9
Blades : 0 Pool: 9
Climbing : 1 Pool: 2
Clubs : 0 Pool: 9
Computer : 0 Pool: 10
Con : 0 Pool: 2
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 10
Data Search : 0 Pool: 10
Demolitions : 1 Pool: 12
Disguise : 0 Pool: 2
Diving : 0 Pool: 2
Dodge : 0 Pool: 6
Electronic Warfare : 1 Pool: 12
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 9
Etiquette : 0 Pool: 2
First Aid : 4 Pool: 15
Flight : 1 Pool: 2
Forgery : 0 Pool: 9
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 9
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 11
Hacking : 0 Pool: 10
Hardware : 4 [Maglocks] Pool: 15 (17)
Heavy Weapons : 0 Pool: 9
Infiltration : 4 [Urban] Pool: 16 (18)
Instruction : 0 Pool: 2
Intimidation : 0 Pool: 2
Leadership : 0 Pool: 2
Locksmith : 0 Pool: 9
Longarms : 6 [Sniper Rifles] Pool: 18 (20)
Navigation : 0 Pool: 2
Negotiation : 0 Pool: 2
Palming : 0 Pool: 9
Parachuting : 0 Pool: 2
Perception : 0 Pool: 2
Pilot Ground Craft : 0 Pool: 6
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 6
Pistols : 1 Pool: 11
Riding : 0 Pool: 6
Running : 1 Pool: 2
Shadowing : 0 Pool: 2
Survival : 0 Pool: 2
Swimming : 1 Pool: 2
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 9
Tracking : 0 Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat : 1 Pool: 11
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Qualities ==
Adept
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
The Artisan's Way
== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 2
Improved Ability (Combat) (Longarms) Rating: 1
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Infiltration) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2
Mind Over Matter (AGI)
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Cerebral Booster Rating 3
Enhanced Protein Exchange, PuSHeD
Genetic Optimization (LOG)
Reflex Recorder (Skill) (Longarms)
Something like that. All agility and logic skills start in the double digits. Its a really powerful adept power if you ask me. And you're dodging bullets with nine dice which ain't shabby. These powers are all geasa'd though so if your GM feels its cheesy just cut a little.
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Yeah, Mind over Matter is only worth it if you are interested in more agility skills. I noticed you were thinking about Demolition. You'd wind up with a fairly different character; it lets you splash a lot of low-rating Logic skills and be really good at them, and also be good at Agility skills.
In that case, you definitely want Warrior's Way.
You probably want to be an Ork. Elf is debatable, but I don't think you can afford to overpay that much for that last point of Agility, especially since you're interested in at least one Strength skill.
You're going to want 1 essence of 'ware. You will eventually want Muscle Toner 4. You can either Restricted Gear it (worst in the long run, best in the short run), start with Rating 2, or start with none (best in the long run, worst in the short run).
I'd also suggest trying to start with Genetic Optimization (Agility). If you have it at chargen, you can get a bit more agility without overpaying.
If you have only 1 logic skill, you actually don't want much logic. It's simply too expensive to buy up a stat for 1 skill. You're better off investing more skill points, Reflex Recorder, and Improved Ability to pump it.
Here's a quick outline:
Ork 20
B 4
A 6
R 5(8)
S 3
C 2
I 5
L 2
W 3
Edg 1
Mag 5(4)
(210 spent on attributes [170 towards cap])
35 points negative qualities of your choice.
Adept 5
Way 10
Martial Arts: +2 to hit with called shots for extra DV (Pentjak-Silat, Wildcat) 10
(net -10 qualities)
Maneuvers:
Quickdraw
Watchful Guard
4 bp
Longarms 4
Athletics 4
Infiltration 4
Hardware 4
Perception 4
+2 on one of those four skills
(112 spent on skills)
Gear:
[bioware]
Genetic Optimization (Agility) 45kny, .2 ess
Muscle Toner 2 16kny, .4 ess
[cyber]
Alphaware Attention Coprocessor 3 (18kny, .24 ess)
Rip out the Muscle Toner 2 for Alphaware Muscle Toner 4 once you save up the 64kny for it. That will leave you with .96 essence loss. At that point you need Betaware or better to cram more stuff in, but you have very solid benefits for your 1 lost essence.
Powers:
Improved Reflexes 3 with Discount [3]
Improved Ability (Longarms) 2 with Discount [.75]
Improved Ability (Hardware) 1[.25]
You still have about 56 bp for other stuff. The main things I'd look at are:
*I set stats to the lowest I would recommend.
*You might want the whole Stealth group, not just Infiltration.
*You may want more skills. I don't recommend going nuts with low-rating skills.
*You still need gear.
*I recommend buying specializations in play, but if you want (or have a few spare BP) you can buy them.
*You could branch into a melee skill, I would recommend Unarmed. If you do this, get a Shock Glove or two, and Two-Weapon Style manuever. If you go with Clubs or Blades instead, also get Off-hand Training.
*Contacts
I do not recommend blowing BP on lockpicking. With a high agility and an autopicker you can defeat practically any old-fashioned lock, and they aren't very common. It's just not worth the BP, in my opinion.
Gear: aside from general stuff like most other characters want:
The gun you want for sniping is the Barrett. It's the rainbow-colored mane in the one-trick pony that is Longarms. It is over the starting availability limit, but not so expensive that it's really worth it to blow Restricted Gear. You can either suck it up and just snipe people with a sport rifle for a run until you can afford the Barrett, or buy a cheaper sniper rifle.
The Terracotta Arms Caravan: it's the best sport rifle. Get it and a license, so you have a good restricted long-range weapon.
Defiance T-250: it sucks, but it's the littlest longarm. Get Barrel Reduction and Chameleon Coating so you can shove it up your ass.
Auto-Assault 16: like the Barrett, it's over-availability. It's the least shitty shotgun in the game and your best bet for close combat as a Longarms user. You should buy it right after the Barrett.
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So I am thinking bout going Way of the Warrior, Increased Reflexes 2 and taking improved combat ability Longarms...now question, Does improved combat ability stack onto say Longarms 5 beyond the normal 6 maximum or how does that all work. If it does does taking longarms 3 improved longarms 3 make it six and save me bp or what exactly?
It actually is worth having Rating 3 with Ways, IMO. The way to go with that discount is to discount as much as you can, and Reaction is very important for combat. Going first is really critical and +1 initiative is better than +1 to hit unless you are really terrible at fighting.
The way Improved Ability works is it adds to your skill up to a max of 1.5*base rating. So if you have Longarms 4, you can take at most 2 Improved Ability and then you'd have a 6. If you have Longarms 5, you can still take at most 2, and you'd have 7. If you have Longarms 6, you could take up to 3, and have a 9.
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Just an FYI, but if you want to be an Urban Brawler, Automatics is the way to go over Longarms.
By canon, none of the positions are allowed sniper or sport rifles. Heavies can use Shotguns (so Longarms skill), but that doesn't seem to be the angle you're going for. Most Urban Brawlers get by with sidearms (a personal sidearm in UB is any single-action, double-action, or semi-auto weapon, up to the Heavy Pistol class, including stuff like the Roomsweeper). All ten of the Scouts, Bangers, and Heavies carry sidearms (and for Scouts and Bangers, it's the only gun they get). Two Heavies per team can carry an assault rifle, SMG, or shotty, as well. One guy per team, the Blaster, has an LMG.
But, yeah. For most dudes, if you're going for a Brawler background? Pistols and Automatics are much more likely than Longarms.
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OK so all good input I saw, I liked a lot of it but I've never been a cyber fan and I am in a manner being a bit of a skill whore i guess so I'm gonna post a bit of what I figured out on my own and with a bit of help from you guys. I think I like the idea that UmaroVI has with the cyberware...but I got a different idea for how I'm gonna get it later. IE buy Magic 6 and then buy the cyberware stuff and slap it in to boost me the rest of the way up to max augmented...may still change mind. GM is not allowing Increased Reflexes 3 cause he doesn't believe in anyone starting with four initiative passes. I've ran into that a lot so doesn't phase me much. So here is my current setup.
Elf with no name (Sue me, I'm lazy right now to not make a name)
Body 5
Agi 6/9
Rea 2/4
Str 2
Cha 4
Int 4
Log 3
Will 5
Edge 2 (Thinking bout dropping it back to 1 and just buying in game)
Mag 5
Warrior Way
Adept
Debt 20
Thrill Seeker
Addiction Milld Cram/Betameth (Depending on if he allows for Cram to be used for getting 4th IP)
Addiction Mild Snuff
Climbing 4
Gymnastics 4
Hardware 4 +2 Mag
Infiltration 5
Locksmith 4
Longarms 5 +2 Sniper Rifles
Perception 4
Shadowing 3
Adept Powers
Improved Physical Attribute Agi
Improved Augmented Physical Attribute Agi x2
Improved Reflexes 2
Trainer/Coach Contact.
And that is really all I've decided so far. I plan on grabbing up pistols either first karma divy....or possibly dropping my two specializations to have pistols for start. But we shall see...your thoughts guys?
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You actually want to put the 'ware in before buying magic up. The karma cost is less that way. Starting with Magic 5, putting in some ware, and then buying it back up is a perfectly reasonable way to go, though.
IPA Agility is just not worth it at all past your natural max and rarely worth it up to that. You either want to just not have it, start with a 6 agility, and buy Muscle Toner 4, or you want to start with Genetic Optimization (Agility), start with a 7, buy one rank of IPA for 8, and then get Muscle Toner 4.
Just compare how much you're paying: right now you are coughing up almost 3 PP for +3 agility. That is way, way overpaying when you could pay .8 essence (worth about .8 pp) and 12 BP for +4 agility.
Improved Ability (Longarms), Combat Sense, and Improved Ability (Hardware) are all good choices.
Don't have two skills at 5; have one at 4 and one at 6 because of the karma costs of buying them later.
I'd skip pistols. With a huge disparity in skill, the Defiance is still better than a pistol. Spend the points on upgrading your Infiltration and Shadowing to Stealth and then stuff the Defiance up your ass with Palming and claim it's a holdout.
If you want to be good at fighting, I really have to advise against that low Reaction. Initiative is really important in a fight. I'd also softcap Intuition for similar reasons.
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This is actually one moment in which I would actually argue against a high initiative. Support roles, which I feel Sniper is gonna fall under, are characters best sitting in the latter stages of the initiative. You get to see which opponent presents itself as the most lethal or which one shows itself as being the one trying to hide from the main team's point of view and it lets you effectively take care of it. Instead of forcing you to declare hold actions and hope something triggers your firing requirements. I would almost prefer last every time I could but then Betameth and snuff will increase reaction up by three giving me a betterinitiative for free in essence when I need it need it. But perhaps this is just me in my cleric like ways from to much Dungeons and Dragons.
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Another thing I've run into is while I have been looking over the various books I can't seem to run into the canon that Critias seemed to have found banning the use of Sniper Rifles and Sports Rifles. Attitude, is probably one of the heaviest to actually go into any rules or regulations on really any of the sports that I can find and it really doesn't show a gun limitation...and with a 3x4 block arena it seems odd not to have a scout sniper...or maybe that's just the Marine in me speaking out. I noticed a ban on Spirits, magic that can't be seen, and other such stuff...but pretty much everything is legal including some really hardcore forbidden drugs...which makes me further wonder why snipers would be banned. Can I get some sited published sources? IE the actual game books that show such references of Sniper Rifles or Sports Rifles being banned? My GMs are really a firm believer in the only real Canon is the stuff that is published by the company itself for use with the game.
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Shadowbeat and the old adventure The Killing Glare are the go-to early edition sources on Urban Brawl (and where it was born, more or less). Along with the CMP adventure Super Brawl Sunday (a much more recent affair, which I wrote as an update/homage to the originals), they give a breakdown of every position on the team, the weapons that are allowed, etc, etc. Attitude was an update to the first two, in that it specifically allowed hacking and (some) magic-use, but was a little disappointing to some of us in that it doesn't actually tell you about the game, being largely based on the assumption folks would already have that core (older) information (which is part of why I put it all in Super Brawl Sunday).
You can find a recap of the old rules http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/ubl.htm (http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/ubl.htm), since it sounds like you don't have access to the old products.
The short form is: eight of the thirteen players on a team only get pistols. Only two of 'em use a weapon that Longarms applies to (in this case, shotguns). But it's not the end of the world or anything -- you could have just used your sneaky-sneak skills to get close to dudes, and shoot the crap out of them with a shotty.
Outside of the game, you used your stealth skills to avoid detection and stay at long range, taking shots like a proper marskman. In the Brawl Zone (tm) you change it up a little to conform to the rules of the game...but on a shadowrun, doing your criminal freelance work? Your background/concept could still work, in my opinion, I just figured you'd want to be aware of the discrepancy.
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Been looking for ages for exactly this, Critias. Thanks and +1!
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Been looking for ages for exactly this, Critias. Thanks and +1!
No need to thank me, man. Tir Tairngire, adepts, the Ancients, elves in general, and Urban Brawl are the things that keep me in love with the game. Any chance I get to yak about one of the above, I'm happy to do so. ;)
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I am most certainly not gonna lie, reading the description of the game. I had something far different pictured in mind, I was going with paintball meets turf war meets commercialized objective based game...not football with guns. As does everyone in my group including my GM. I don't really see how they don't allow sniper rifles with the inclusion of mages, I mean a mage with vision magnification contacts would technically be OP in such a game, launching fireballs further with no penalties then any other person really could...huh, feels like it needs a hard rules update to me. But thanks for the info, I think with the source that you quoted being so 'old' it's probably not gonna get looked at by the GM and we're gonna end up with a different version of the sport playing more like how I described.
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I am most certainly not gonna lie, reading the description of the game. I had something far different pictured in mind, I was going with paintball meets turf war meets commercialized objective based game...not football with guns. As does everyone in my group including my GM. I don't really see how they don't allow sniper rifles with the inclusion of mages, I mean a mage with vision magnification contacts would technically be OP in such a game, launching fireballs further with no penalties then any other person really could...huh, feels like it needs a hard rules update to me. But thanks for the info, I think with the source that you quoted being so 'old' it's probably not gonna get looked at by the GM and we're gonna end up with a different version of the sport playing more like how I described.
There is also Arena Brawl, which is played in actual sporting arenas (instead of real ghettoes), with gel rounds and other stun weapons instead of live ammo -- way less casualties, way less ratings, but potentially (since they've never gone into any more detail of it) with sport or sniper rifles allows, and/or any other little rules tweaks you'd like. Arena Brawl is the ugly stepsister because the Shadowrun media world is so over-the-top that everyone loves the live fatalities and the "real" urban play zone and stuff...but Arena Brawl might be a way for you to wedge in your guy's sniping, and still have a more-or-less Urban Brawler backstory.
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I am most certainly not gonna lie, reading the description of the game. I had something far different pictured in mind, I was going with paintball meets turf war meets commercialized objective based game...not football with guns. As does everyone in my group including my GM. I don't really see how they don't allow sniper rifles with the inclusion of mages, I mean a mage with vision magnification contacts would technically be OP in such a game, launching fireballs further with no penalties then any other person really could...huh, feels like it needs a hard rules update to me. But thanks for the info, I think with the source that you quoted being so 'old' it's probably not gonna get looked at by the GM and we're gonna end up with a different version of the sport playing more like how I described.
Our perception of magic and mages doesn't really reflect how rare these things are in the SR world. Even the lowliest and weakest mage will get offered a job with good pay and lots of perks from any company that discovers him first. They got no reason to consider stuff like UB. And the mages that mess up badly and get caught by the law don't get offered a chance to join UB; they get offered to work off their debts to society for a corp (same job but less pay) or get disappeared and experimented on.
Why no snipers? Boooring! People want action and excitement. A guy that's dressed like a buxus and doesn't move an inch during the whole game is not what they're paying to see!
On the odd chance that a mage does get on a UB team, seeing an actual mage in real combat action is something most people will pay for. Everyone knows the stuff from Karl Kombatmage is CGI!
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Why no snipers? Boooring! People want action and excitement. A guy that's dressed like a buxus and doesn't move an inch during the whole game is not what they're paying to see!
There is also that. When you consider video gamer complaints about "campers," and combine it with football-fan's complaints when nothing decides a game but field goals (instead of folks ever going for the touchdown) or when kick-offs result in taking a knee (instead of making a break for it), etc, etc?
The last thing Urban Brawl wants is leagues made up for sniper/spotter combos, just plinking away from cover at anyone that tries to move the ball. They like pistols and submachineguns, short-ranged weapons that can lay down a lot of lead, be used on the move (at least moreso than a sniper rifle), and will look awesome on the big screen. It's a game that forces you to advance the ball or be penalized -- they don't want campers and snipers, they want rushers and assault troops. The sport encourages melee combat, for pete's sake!
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I don't know, I think watching an exposed sniper trying to scramble to disappear only to make his way to a defendable place to try and zone in on choke points. It does add to the excitement as any moment your runner could catch a well placed bullet offering up a timely fumble. Snipers can be a lot of fun to watch if they aren't already in place.