Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Anachronaut on <06-27-12/2050:01>
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I was just curious if we could get a thread going for just general optimization strategies such as the famous "Skills at 1 or 4" rule.
How do you look at a character when someone posts it up on this forum?
Really just looking to amass tips for building SR4 characters in general.
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Because Build Points (BP) have a flat cost, and karma point costs increase with level, I like my characters to start out heavily emphasizing a niche, and then growing more diverse over time.
If your character is combat-focused, agility is important. If you're tech focused, bonuses to logic-linked skills are important. If you're a mage, your drain stat is important.
I generally start with a synergy of some sort. My current character, as an example, is a face / charisma-traditioned magician. Both roles use charisma, so that gives me something to focus on.
Dice Pools
Rather than being so-so at 10 things, I want as many dice as possible in my one, then a second, etc. For charisma, I have a couple options on raising the stat. If I go elf I can have a higher base. Similarly I can raise it with Exceptional Attribute or SURGE. Also by taking Genetic Optimization. Finally, if I can cast spells I can use Improved Attribute (Charisma). Any of these could help me get more dice in my charisma, which would affect both my social skills and my drain soaking. Magic and bio/cyber-ware are the two main ways of increasing your pools without spending a bunch of BP. Hence the adage, anything a mundane can do, and adept can do with +5 dice.
Your dice pool (at least in Missions) is limited to 20 dice or 2*(attribute+ability), whichever is higher. So when I'm going for 21+, I make sure to focus on raising my actual attribute or ability, in addition to bonus dice.
Your maximum attribute score, in turn, is limited by your base. Exceptional Attribute, SURGE, or Genetic Optimization, then, are particularly valuable because they raise the augmented maximum. That said, they're expensive. 20BP of quality, Distinctive style, or essence loss. SURGE in particular is great value, except for the -3 to perception rolls against you from DS.
'Ware
Few characters would not benefit from 1 essence worth of 'ware.
For ware, keep in mind that -.1 essence loses you no more magic/resonance than 1.0. So try to spend in whole points. Also, combine bio and cyber to get at 50% essence discount on whichever is lower. Mathematically, the closer you can get them to even, the more you'll benefit from the discount. So for 1pt of essence, .7 worth of bioware and .6 worth of cyberware would be almost the most you could squeeze into 1 point of essence loss.
Combat
Unless you have a plan for avoiding combat entirely, try to get as many passes as you can, a high dodge pool (especially reaction + bonuses that apply without declaring a dodge action), and high armor.
For armor, use a combination of Form-fitting (which combines with other armor but only encumbers by half), softwoven armor (which reduces the encumbrance of the higher value by your strenth, and SecureTech PPP to balance out ballistic / impact. I look for bonuses like -2 to detecting objects hidden under (long coat) or -4 to perceive the character (ruthenium).
If your character has good combat stats, look for automatic bursts / high damage weapons (combat axe). If you're not, look for something that just has to hit, like stick-n-shock. Grenade launchers (I favor narcoject + DMSO splash grenades) can be the easiest to hit with, but don't forget the Airburst link or people can leave the area before they explode.
Misc
For contacts, I find 6/1 to be the best value. High connection means they do the most for you, and you can scrimp on BP for loyalty if you don't mind paying for their help / increasing loyalty through RP.
There are so many useful positive qualities, I almost always take 35 points, or close to it. But BP are so scarce, I always take 35 negative. Play around with different negative qualities until you find ones that either a) don't slow you down in your niche or b) better yet, you enjoy playing. I like characters who remember to check the news daily, so I play a disproportionate number of characters with Media Junky.
A good rule of thumb is 1BP = 2 Karma. With that in mind, look for ways you can get something at character creation for < 1/2 the karma cost in BP. An attribute of 5, for instance, cost 10 BP instead of 25 karma. A skill at 6 is 4BP instead of 12karma.
Skills are generally the easiest thing to raise with karma, so I assign BP there last, and often have a bunch of ones. Specializations are *AMAZING*, but cost the same amount in Karma they do in BP. Get them shortly after creation, rather than during.
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Some general tips:
Getting the maximum Attribute is disproportionately expensive, which is why you hear the term "soft-maxing" so much around here. Skills, on the other hand, have a flat cost all the way up to the maximum - the only limit is that you can only have one 6 or two 5's. For most builds, you should do so.
Magic, augmentations, or (expecially for adepts) both, all give disproportionately cheap bonuses to your character. This actually fits the transhumanist theme of the game.
Dice pools are very important, especially for combat, magical, or social skills, which typically involve opposed dice contests with a lot of potential negative modifiers. Typically, this involves soft-maxed Attribute, maxed-out skill, and dice pool modifiers. Augmentations and magic are important because they can improve all three components of the dice pool. Let's take a street samurai, for example. He starts out with a base Agility of 5, and a skill of 6 in automatics, with a specialization in assault rifles. So when he is using his trusty Ares Alpha, he can roll 13 dice. But let's give this street samurai muscle toner: 4 (bought in conjunction with the Restricted Gear quality, and raising his Agility), a reflex recorder (raising his automatics skill to 7), and cybereyes with a smartlink, giving him another +2 to his dice pool. Now his dice pool is 20 dice.
Generally, Shadowrun characters tend to be "eggshells with hammers", able to deal deadly attacks but vulnerable to them in turn. So tactics can become very important. Soaking damage is good, dodging damage is better, and not being spotted at all or springing an ambush on an enemy is the very best of all.
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation.
Nobody is forced to keep up with their hyper-optimized teammates.
You can create your character freely as seems fit.
Skill ranges between 1 and 4 are viable, what you else will never see.
You only spend 4 karma instead of 4 BP for level one skills, which helps a lot to fluff characters out with a couple of them.
The result will be more realistic characters.
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
Yeah: Optimized characters are NOT realistic. I have an optimized character that drops 22 dice for Perception! I spent so many points
building the character to max out perception that, ultimately, the character is almost useless in any roll other then "I see the Ambush first!"
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.
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I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.
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I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.
It's really hard to not optimize, in some ways.
In some ways, really, lower "starting" optimization can even get you better results in the long run. An Elf Sammie with Agility 5(7), for example, is "suboptimal", but with a Suprathyroid Gland and Muscle Toner 4, said Elf exactly hits the hard-cap at 5(10) without wasting 10 BP for softcapping Agility.
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Karmagen is a good way to optimize, if your GM allows it... because with 750 Karma, even with the errata and paying for your knowledge skills, your character will still tend to come out better than under 400 BP. Specialist characters come out a bit better, and more generalist builds come out a lot better.
Optimized characters can dominate a game if they are the only optimized characters, and that can create a backlash. So look at the overall power level of the table, and what the GM's style is. If you still prefer optimized characters, then remember that they often draw the ire of the GM and other players for steamrolling over challenges and making the other characters seem redundant.
But that is often a matter of playstyle rather than the raw numbers. If your tough street samurai protects the other characters, or your face roleplays some good scenes with the others instead of rolling his umpteen social skill dice at them, and if you don't steal spotlight time from the other PCs, then your optimized character might be a lot more tolerable to them. Similarly, if you tone down your character enough that he can be challenged occasionally, the GM is less likely to resort to cheesy tactics to counter him.
Be aware when an optimized character is not appropriate, though. Some GMs are newer, and can't handle powerful characters. Some groups are very stringent about power levels, and won't care about how good your character's backstory is, or how his high dice pools are all logical and self-consistent (JustADude is right - sometimes optimized characters are simply the result of logical choices at character creation). In that case, you have to decide whether to adjust your playstyle, or find another game.
Optimization techniques work even in lower-powered games, though. Even with capped dice pools, getting some muscle toner, freeing up points to have a wider array of skills, is still a good idea. But again, metagame a bit and consider the other players. If they are playing Mr. Corkscrew, Mr. Bottle Opener, and Mr. Awl, they won't like it if you show up with Mr. Swiss Army Knife.
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I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.
Sometimes this can be mitigated with playstyle, if you keep your eye on the golden rule, you're all playing to have fun. If you optimize in such a way that you support your team, rather than not leaving anyone else stuff to do, a lot of people don't mind that you have 20 dice in "not their problem". Ever complained about a teammate with 20 dice in counterspelling and first aid?
Getting the maximum Attribute is disproportionately expensive, which is why you hear the term "soft-maxing" so much around here. Skills, on the other hand, have a flat cost all the way up to the maximum - the only limit is that you can only have one 6 or two 5's. For most builds, you should do so.
Excellent call! Go with a 6 and a 4 instead of two 5's to save 2 karma later.
Generally, Shadowrun characters tend to be "eggshells with hammers"
Love it.
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.
Which is all a very fascinating theory, and stuff, but it's not what this thread is -- very specifically and clearly -- about. The guy is asking for cut-throat, efficiency-oriented, character creation optimization tips. You're, instead, giving him fortune cookie philosophical advice about how realistic characters are better. That seems to be perilously close to threadcrapping, to me, even if I happen to also prefer realistic characters, myself.
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threadcrapping
Most optimized weapon! Poo Cannon: Deals 12D(isgusting)
My best piece of optimization advice: dont forget the little things with gear. Personal Grip is so cheap, actually and metaphorically; same for FFBA and some of the armor mods. Disposable commlinks get hyped here alot, but also get hardliner gloves, a laser sight (in case you ever have to turn off your PAN or Smartlink), a little custom style if youre the intimidating type, the right kind of tires on your ride...It's all cheap and easily overlooked, but also very useful for how cheap it is.
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The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.
Which is all a very fascinating theory, and stuff, but it's not what this thread is -- very specifically and clearly -- about. The guy is asking for cut-throat, efficiency-oriented, character creation optimization tips. You're, instead, giving him fortune cookie philosophical advice about how realistic characters are better. That seems to be perilously close to threadcrapping, to me, even if I happen to also prefer realistic characters, myself.
Mentioning a system that doesn't require optimization (by itself in a single post) is a valid point and worth mentioning in a thread called "optimization theory", even though its the exact opposite. My intention was not to start a "threadcrapping" discussion about it. You need two people for that.
Yeah, and my fault for taking the bait. I'm out. OP, sorry for the derail.
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Own a pistol. Even if you can't use it, but nothing cries out serious business like a gun pointed into the face of someone. And get a lasersight for your smartlinked pistol. So his buddies know exactly where you are aiming at.
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Own a pistol. Even if you can't use it, but nothing cries out serious business like a gun pointed into the face of someone. And get a lasersight for your smartlinked pistol. So his buddies know exactly where you are aiming at.
You know....Circumstance bonus of 1 Die to intimidation if you do that *AND* know how to use a pistol! More depending on where
the little red dot is hovering over...
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All the money.
Have it.
Gear is modifiers, and modifiers can contribute as much as a 3rd stat when you do them right, so buy as much as you can.
Even if your GM is Monty Hall, optimization is about being as good as you can be now and being even better later.
If you're a mage, it's better to buy that big-ass focus and bind it with bp than it is to save up and bind it later with karma and earnings.
Custom-high lifestyle still gives you high starting cash. Money is good.
Don't forget Command. Using Remote Operation in conjunction with an automated device will replace your attribute with the Command program's rating. This means anyone with a command program of 6 and a rating 6 medkit can do first aid with 12 dice from hotsim VR. It's a setup that will cost you less than 1 bp worth of cash.
Keep knowledge skills diverse. Specifics are for specializations. Don't get Denver Street Gangs, Seattle Street Gangs or Lagos Street Gangs. Get Street Gangs. Get Politics. Get Data Havens. Having some idea about a lot of things is better than having a good idea about irrelevant things. And, remember, your GM wants to give you this information.
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Good call on lifestyles!
My favorite is to start with one month of high, as follows (assuming no qualities allowed):
Comforts: Squatter (2) - Fluff
Entertainment: Luxury (6) - Fluff*
Necessities: High (4)
Neighborhood: Low (2) - don't want higher in case going back home after a run becomes a reason for lone-star to stop you
Security: Luxury (6) - Live in a gated neighborhood in a crappy community, have a safer place.
Total 20 = standard high lifestyle, for increased starting cash.
After the first month, drop to middle by removing 5 from Entertainment. When doing this be sure to pick up the premium matrix services (unwired 202) that came with High for free. Unlimited anonymous commcodes is stupidly useful and not that expensive. If you get sold out, and the only person who had that commcode was your fixer...
*if your ST lets you use entertainment to not have to pay for drinks at meets/etc, you should squeeze a point out of comforts, necessities, or security to keep this high enough that you don't have to record every soygin 'n tonic you drink using etiquette with Mr. Johnson.
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With regards to Lifestyles, one of my favourite ways to go is:
Mild Allergy to Soy,
Make sure that I have High Necessities to cover that all my food is "Real Food", not Soy,
So, I tend to do:
Comforts, Entertainment, Security at Middle(3), Neighborhood at Low(2), Necessities at High(4)
It ends up giving you relatively free points. Since, after all, a mild allergy is only a -1 to your Dice Pools,
so, in general, even if you end up having to eat soy at a meet, it is more a discomfort allergy, not a dangerous one(I have
a few of these RL, namely to onions and black olives). And, of course, it meets one thing any GM would like:
it is a disadvantage that actually impacts the game, and will come into play...
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Just watch out for the GMs who'll say "Your last food shipment had a lot of soy snuck in. Increase your allergy to moderate and you get the penalty everyday for the next month." Such GMs are out there.
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Don't forget Command. Using Remote Operation in conjunction with an automated device will replace your attribute with the Command program's rating. This means anyone with a command program of 6 and a rating 6 medkit can do first aid with 12 dice from hotsim VR. It's a setup that will cost you less than 1 bp worth of cash.
+1 for that. Command is versatile, and I was thinking about its applications in a remote-controlled bomb disposal drone.
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Does a RAW medkit have the capacity to do the care itself, or is it just the resources to do so by hand?
Command is a good call, you can also pick up analyze 6 for next to nothing, and Firewall 6 without restricted gear, giving Joe the Runner sys- +firewall[6] + analyze [6] for unwelcome guests.
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Except you need Restricted Gear for Response 6 to use that Firewall. The Analyze on the other hand could make use of Optimization and Ergonomic program options.
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I've gotten in trouble for relying over-much on this before, but according to the FAQ (http://"http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/"), Firewall is a matrix attribute, rather than a program and so, unlike system, can be brought to 6 without raising response. Is this contradicted in the rules somewhere?
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How about that nowhere in the rulebook description of Firewall does it state that it is an exception to that rule.
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I've gotten in trouble for relying over-much on this before, but according to the FAQ (http://"http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/"), Firewall is a matrix attribute, rather than a program and so, unlike system, can be brought to 6 without raising response. Is this contradicted in the rules somewhere?
Not that I have seen and do it for most/all my characters.
And no where does it say that it is included in that rule.
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I've gotten in trouble for relying over-much on this before, but according to the FAQ (http://"http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/"), Firewall is a matrix attribute, rather than a program and so, unlike system, can be brought to 6 without raising response. Is this contradicted in the rules somewhere?
System is capped by Response (p.222 SR4A), but there is no such mention of a limitation for Firewall; it's described as the device's built-in security software. The FAQ (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/) specifically appears to refute support* the notion that Firewall is not limited since it is a Matrix attribute.
If you're looking to upgrade a device's hardware (Response/Signal), then the upgrades can be no larger than the device's base ratings +2.
Except you need Restricted Gear for Response 6 to use that Firewall. The Analyze on the other hand could make use of Optimization and Ergonomic program options.
When did Response start acting as a hard limit for program ratings? That role belongs to System.
*EDIT: I need to avoid rushing my forum posts and leave myself a 20-minute grace period for work. ::)
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It's not but since system is limited by response and program ratings are limited by system when being used.
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If Firewall were meant to be the singular exception, the rulebook description would specify it as such. It doesn't so it isn't.
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If Firewall were meant to be the singular exception, the rulebook description would specify it as such. It doesn't so it isn't.
This horse has been beaten to death may times in other threads.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. Meaning some see it one way, others see it another.
Edit:
Though I do find it interesting that HERO LAB, a licensed character generator for SR lets you purchase Firewall up to 6 at Char Gen.
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Actually, firewall is a attribute of the device. It is not a normal program constrained by system. It's in the same boat as system... they're both independent items which form part of the devices ratings.
p221: matrix attributes... firewall is listed as an ATTRIBUTE (not a program). It's never listed once as a program (in the program section or elsewhere) it's only ever listed as a software upgrade of the device.
SR4a p222.
"...Upgrading a device is simply a matter of having the proper hardware module (for Response and Signal) or software package (for Firewall and System). Once you have the module or package, simply install it into the device, a matter of a few minutes’ work. A device’s ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings. Further improvements have no additional effect on performance."
It makes some sense, there are some systems which you need cheap things (low response/system) but still to have a high firewall. By the same metric there's only so much you can do to help out and patch windoze or OSuX and improve either their system or firewall if that's your starting commercial base.
That said, only the milspec stuff in war comes with ala carte buying of system and firewall seperately. It's not really said in the mainbook, but since war makes a point of stating it outright, it leads to the belief that system and firewall must be bought together as a single OS package (then upgrades to either would be limited to +2 of starting).
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I didn't say it was restricted by System. I said it would be restricted by Response like System is because it is not stated in the rulebook description not to be. Otherwise it would destroy any reason to have a Firewall less than 6 in creation and less than 10 afterward.
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I didn't say it was restricted by System. I said it would be restricted by Response like System is because it is not stated in the rulebook description not to be. Otherwise it would destroy any reason to have a Firewall less than 6 in creation and less than 10 afterward.
Guns, that's a textbook example of denying the antecedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent). Firewall is not explicitly stated to be limited by Response, and the description of the attribute suggests that is separate from standard programs. I will agree that it requires better wording for clarification, but you can't assume that Response will limit Firewall without houseruling.
Your criticism of Firewalls under 6 is valid, however; I do find it strange that a rating 6 medkit only costs 600¥.
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Your criticism of Firewalls under 6 is valid, however; I do find it strange that a rating 6 medkit only costs 600¥.
Keep in mind, that's like saying an EMT-grade medical kit is only $600. Cheap to Runners used to thinking in terms of thousands and tens of thousands, but hella expensive for normal people.
Also, I'm sure Economy of Scale comes into play. They're 100% legal, and incredibly useful to have. All sorts of people would want them, so they'd be cranked out rapidly compared to most of the gear Runners buy.
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It's not assuming it follows the same restriction as programs, but rather imposing the same limit System has which is an appropriate interpretation barring actual errata to the contrary.
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which is an appropriate interpretation
No, it isn't.
Please stop bringing it up outside of rules discussion threads.
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All4BigGuns
The difference, to me, is that System is explicitly limited by Response in RAW:
The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating.
Not only does Firewall not mention response, the contrast to System which gives hard and fast rules Implicitly indicates that it is unconnected.
The best legitimate argument I'm aware of is that in Unwired Firewall is treated as software for some purposes, implying it may be limited by System as other programs.
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I don't actually believe All4BigGuns interpretation to be correct, but to play the devil's advocate:
On SR4A 330, Firewall is listed in the "Matrix Programs" table, together with a whole lot of programs which all fall under the Response and/or System limitations.
That said, this discussion should be made in a different thread, this one isn't about Firewall and Response. There's plenty of those floating around, and I don't think any of them ever reached a real definitive conclusion.
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It's not assuming it follows the same restriction as programs, but rather imposing the same limit System has which is an appropriate interpretation barring actual errata to the contrary.
Firewall is software, but it is not a Program ... it's a Matrix Attribute.
If it were a Program, it would count against the System's limit on concurrently-running programs. However, it is not, and thus, does not.
If it were a Program, it could have program Options. Including Optimisation, or Ergonomic. However it is not, and thus, cannot.
Simply put, it is abundantly clear that Firewall is not "a Program", and thus, neither limited as Programs are, not eligible for the same advantages Programs have access to.
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That said, this discussion should be made in a different thread, this one isn't about Firewall and Response. There's plenty of those floating around, and I don't think any of them ever reached a real definitive conclusion.
Couldn't agree more. The next time you like to discuss something off topic, just post a link to another thread. (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7032.msg124840#msg124840)
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All the money.
Have it.
Gear is modifiers, and modifiers can contribute as much as a 3rd stat when you do them right, so buy as much as you can.
Even if your GM is Monty Hall, optimization is about being as good as you can be now and being even better later.
To go along with this one...
Take the Positive Quality of Black-Market Pipeline. You are then allowed to start the game with restricted/black market items to spend that heavy dose of character-creation creds on. And if you don't spend it at character creation, you can get them in-game. May cost you more in-game, but the quality gives you the right to get them.
EDIT: There is nothing in the description that says you CAN start the game with them, but there is nothing in the description that says you CAN'T start the game with them either. So I believe this would be up for GM interpretation, but you could make the argument.
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All the money.
Have it.
Gear is modifiers, and modifiers can contribute as much as a 3rd stat when you do them right, so buy as much as you can.
Even if your GM is Monty Hall, optimization is about being as good as you can be now and being even better later.
To go along with this one...
Take the Positive Quality of Black-Market Pipeline. You are then allowed to start the game with restricted/black market items to spend that heavy dose of character-creation creds on. And if you don't spend it at character creation, you can get them in-game. May cost you more in-game, but the quality gives you the right to get them.
EDIT: There is nothing in the description that says you CAN start the game with them, but there is nothing in the description that says you CAN'T start the game with them either. So I believe this would be up for GM interpretation, but you could make the argument.
All Black Market Pipeline does is make it easier for one contact--chosen when the quality is taken--to acquire gear of one type. Restricted Gear is the quality that lets you get higher availability items in creation (it's honestly a wasted to 'save it' until later with the latter). As to 'R' or 'F' gear, those don't matter one bit when determining whether you can start with it in creation by the actual book rules (only the numerical value on availability matters).
Black Market Pipeline
Cost: 10 BP
At character creation, the player chooses one of his contacts
and one type of merchandise (i.e. vehicles, weapons, electronics,
armor, etc.). This contact can always buy or sell that contraband on
the black market at a price that bene fits the character. is guarantees
a 10 percent discount when the character buys the appropriate
merchandise from the Black Market Contact, and confers a +3
dice pool modi fier when negotiating to sell/fence appropriate
goods through the Pipeline.
As one can see, it clearly just makes things easier to get in game, and more lucrative to sell.
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Wow, do I feel like a schmeckus. Thanks for correcting me.
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Wow, do I feel like a schmeckus. Thanks for correcting me.
No prob.
On looking at the quality again, given how little it actually does, it's another one that is overpriced for its effect...
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If the GM allows the discount to work at chargen itself, it's cheaper. For a character spending almost all of his 250k on 'ware (Street Sam) or vehicles (Rigger), the 10% discount itself makes the Quality effectively cost only 5BP instead of 10.
If not allowed to work at chargen, I agree it's usually a bit 'Meh' and probable overpriced, though a lot depends then on the GM and how hard/easy equipment can otherwise be gotten. In a long term campaign it could be worth it.
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Well, over time, it can easily pay for itself.After you've spent 500,000 nuyen on that, it has paid for itself. But, remember, you don't have to be buying stuff for your own personal use only! If you take something like "bioware" or "cyberware" that several members of your team will want to spend large amounts of their money on, on an ongoing basis, it will pay for itself very fast.
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If the GM allows the discount to work at chargen itself, it's cheaper. For a character spending almost all of his 250k on 'ware (Street Sam) or vehicles (Rigger), the 10% discount itself makes the Quality effectively cost only 5BP instead of 10.
If not allowed to work at chargen, I agree it's usually a bit 'Meh' and probable overpriced, though a lot depends then on the GM and how hard/easy equipment can otherwise be gotten. In a long term campaign it could be worth it.
Plus there's the fluff aspects.
If I hadn't been insanely strapped for Quality points building my latest character, I'd have grabbed that in a heartbeat, since being a member of First Nations, in good standing, should mean you pretty much don't pay the last bit of "retail" markup on the stuff they bring in.
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ONe thing that I have noticed is to use in debt as a quality. It nets you points, it nets you money. After a few runs nuyens flow alot, so your able to pay him off his payments...
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In debt can be either a great quality, or a crippling one - it really, really depends on the GM. Keep in mind that, much like the sensitive system quality, some GMs dislike the quality so much that they get a bit passive-agressive about it, and load it up with other intangible drawbacks (and hey, you are in debt to a syndicate, not the local credit union - those guys loan money to people to get their hooks into them, and they won't always play fair, either).
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It's also worth noting that a lot of GMs require you to buy off the quality with karma once your debt is paid off.
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It's also worth noting that a lot of GMs require you to buy off the quality with karma once your debt is paid off.
No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.
However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..
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No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.
^^^ Exactly this. ^^^
Meeting your "loan officer", and handing her each more-than-just-the-interest payment in nuyen, is the role-playing necessary to have the option to pay off the BP/Karma part of the quality.
However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..
Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf. In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work. What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?
...
I want to rework "made man" to be a variable-cost quality. Basically, start the price at 20BP ... but then bundle in Day Job (sans SIN), with 10 extra hours/week required but the same income - and tweak the loyalty of the Group Contact. So it would work like this:
- At 5 points, you work 50 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 5, and you earn 5K every month as "your cut of the action";
- At 10 points, you work 30 hours per week, your Group contact has a loyalty of 4, and you earn 2.5K each month (note, aside from income, this is exactly by-the-RAW);
- At 15 points, you work 20 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 3, and you earn 1K each month.
:)
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However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..
Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf. In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work. What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?
Well, you *are* paid for that work, just not in tangibles. However, the thing is: Yes, you are expected to give 30 hours a week.
At the same time, I am sure that your Oyabun, Capo, whatever would also expect a cut of your "Work on the side." Thus, the "In Debt" can be used to mechanically represent the minimum amount your Boss expects from your "side work" before he/she thinks she/he is being cheated and questioning your loyalty...
This is sort of like how I would use Combat Paralysis to represent someone who does not react well to being caught off guard,
and needs to plan everything through. They are not so much "freezing" or "freaking out" as they are analyzing the situation, and
making a plan...(great for someone that has that Adept power that lets them substitute Logic for Agility)
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No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.
^^^ Exactly this. ^^^
Meeting your "loan officer", and handing her each more-than-just-the-interest payment in nuyen, is the role-playing necessary to have the option to pay off the BP/Karma part of the quality.
However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..
Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf. In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work. What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?
...
I want to rework "made man" to be a variable-cost quality. Basically, start the price at 20BP ... but then bundle in Day Job (sans SIN), with 10 extra hours/week required but the same income - and tweak the loyalty of the Group Contact. So it would work like this:
- At 5 points, you work 50 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 5, and you earn 5K every month as "your cut of the action";
- At 10 points, you work 30 hours per week, your Group contact has a loyalty of 4, and you earn 2.5K each month (note, aside from income, this is exactly by-the-RAW);
- At 15 points, you work 20 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 3, and you earn 1K each month.
:)
Or, more simply, just allow Made Man to substitute for Sinner and the hours from Day Job to count towards the 30hrs/wk.
Essentially, your Day Job is working security at a "connected" business, acting as Wage Mage, etc...
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That could also work, I suppose. I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.
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That could also work, I suppose. I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.
When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.
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That could also work, I suppose. I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.
When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.
,,, and in return, the Family (etc) takes care of you. It makes sure you're not sleeping in a cardboard box, it makes sure you can have clean clothes to wear, that you can bathe regularly.
Because the Don's wife? She's not keen on riding the handlebars of your mostly-rust-and-duct-tape bicycle, leaning against your odorous unwashed body, while her matched set of custom Gucchi luggage bounces along in a dented and banged up kid's wagon towed by a length of ratty twine tied to your belt - no matter HOW trusted you are. She'll flag down a random cab, first.
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That could also work, I suppose. I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.
When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.
,,, and in return, the Family (etc) takes care of you. It makes sure you're not sleeping in a cardboard box, it makes sure you can have clean clothes to wear, that you can bathe regularly.
Because the Don's wife? She's not keen on riding the handlebars of your mostly-rust-and-duct-tape bicycle, leaning against your odorous unwashed body, while her matched set of custom Gucchi luggage bounces along in a dented and banged up kid's wagon towed by a length of ratty twine tied to your belt - no matter HOW trusted you are. She'll flag down a random cab, first.
Gah! Dang you! Now I have an image of Al Pacino on that bike towing that wagon... :-\
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... Al Pacino as an ORK, no less. :)
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as long as he's not Alpa Chino
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,,, and in return, the Family (etc) takes care of you. It makes sure you're not sleeping in a cardboard box, it makes sure you can have clean clothes to wear, that you can bathe regularly.
Because the Don's wife? She's not keen on riding the handlebars of your mostly-rust-and-duct-tape bicycle, leaning against your odorous unwashed body, while her matched set of custom Gucchi luggage bounces along in a dented and banged up kid's wagon towed by a length of ratty twine tied to your belt - no matter HOW trusted you are. She'll flag down a random cab, first.
Actually, put like that, perhaps it might be better to link Made Man with Trust Fund than Day Job. Rather than an actual "trust fund," it's the Quo for your Quid... the bosses making sure you're looked after, and they'll probably do a better job of it than some Wage Slave's paycheck would.
After all, when's the last time you saw a Made Man wearing off-the-rack?
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That might also work. :)