Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: endragor on <07-15-12/1407:36>
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hi, i'm trying to buld an A.I. char for a new player in my (first) SR4 campain. it should be an A.I. and he want to use a bust-a-move as his home node for BG reason.
the problem is that the party as already covered all the stereotip roles. one melee samurai and one ranged, one hacker, one adept/infiltrator, and one shaman.
the wannabe A.I. player don't want to overlap with the role of the other player, but obviously want to be useful for the party.
the rigger is not an option, exept for some minidrone to scout or such.
i started filling it with all the side useful program like face recognition, lie detector, empathy softwere, tac soft, ecm. all program not taken by the hacker.
in the small bust-a-move i didn't find anything realy useful to use...
then i was planning some micro but don't know how to make them usefull...
to summarize, i will appreciate any advice to make it a better A.I.
sorry for my bad english, and i hope is all clear!
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Why is the rigger role not an option? Have you considered the fun of a bust-a-move riding on top of a Steel Lynx?
Basically, unless the AI is doing rigging or hacking, there isn't much they add to a group. Also, some overlap is a good and healthy thing. Your group will understand this the first time they get split up and have to have someone be the Face at both locations.
Actually, you could do a decent face with an AI, but you really ought to have more than just the bust-a-move. For one thing, it is too easy to destroy, and the AI would (in my game, at least) take penalties for not 'fitting in' when making social tests to deal with, say, a mob boss in the meat.
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Also, maybe you should talk to your player who wants to be an AI about having an emotitoy? It comes with a software that recognizes emotions and would help with social tests. Also, the moveable one is just as mobile (from my understanding. I am by no means an expert on rigging or drones) as a bust-a-move. The emotitoy can come in various styles, although it probably would take negatives for not fitting in as well.
Also, like Mirikon said, overlap in a group is always a good thing, especially in the matrix. In my opinion, it is one of the two places that a player is generally alone when it comes to fulfilling roles, the other being the astral plane. A street sam has limited help with combat from the other team members. Hackers (who are on-site) can shoot a gun (or mine do), even if it is just a pistol, infiltrators generally have combat skills, and mages, at the very least, generally have combat spells. Infiltrators can have the help of the hacker and/or someone else who is decent at sneaking around. But, on the matrix, unless you are a matrix character, you generally do not have the skills or gear to properly assist the hacker in the matrix. So, especially if the player is new to the matrix, having help isn't a bad idea. Matrix characters are hard to play if you do not know what you are doing (I learned that the hard way). Now, I'm not saying that both of the matrix characters should have the same skill set. Maybe the AI could be more of a rigger, if the player would like to do that. Or, the AI could be a different specialization of the hacker. For example, say that the hacker is more combat oriented. You could help the player make an AI that is more effective at sneaking around a node and finding information. This way, one hacker can distract the IC while the other is doing what they are supposed to be doing in the node.
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You could "handwave" him one of the few decent anthroform drones and give him an A.I. street sammy heavy weapons expert.
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You could "handwave" him one of the few decent anthroform drones and give him an A.I. street sammy heavy weapons expert.
I'd suggest having the GM give him a "similar model" to that Body, minus the Cyborg Adaptation and plus an equivalent 15,000¥ in "stock" mods.
I'd personally suggest Armor 18, Chameleon Coating, Improved Sensor Array, and both Engine Customization mods (for 6/18 Accel and 36 Speed), and bump the price down to 148750¥ to cover the remaining "balance". Maybe also drop the Mimic system, since this is turning into less of a "pretend to be human" drone, and do 143750¥.
Expensive... but you've got a drone that has Hardened Armor 18, and can wear normal "human-sized" armor on top of that. And, since they don't actually have Agility or Reaction scores, Encumbrance is a non-issue.
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Can't all AI's just move their persona between nodes?
So, if he's a rigger\hacker, he can hang out just about anywhere? Get your players to carry a spare household laptop (Upgraded household Nexus) around. If he can help the rigger, then he becomes a real asset.
Rigger and hacker is a good mix, just shore up where the party is weakest.
What 'JustADude' says, also works. Although from what I could tell, borg\drones were a little too powerful. You wind up with a super brain piloting a super body. The Troll Vat job will look pretty puny next to that. Probably the only downside would be maintenance and repair. (This ain't off the shelf stuff you're using, so filling it full of holes will be a big concern.) Hmmm... Dice... can the borg get as many dice as the Troll in combat?
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Can't all AI's just move their persona between nodes?
Yes they can, but they have some significant advantages to bringing their "home node" into the fray. They get Rating/2 added to all the Matrix Attributes of the node they're bonded to.
What 'JustADude' says, also works. Although from what I could tell, borg\drones were a little too powerful. You wind up with a super brain piloting a super body. The Troll Vat job will look pretty puny next to that. Probably the only downside would be maintenance and repair. (This ain't off the shelf stuff you're using, so filling it full of holes will be a big concern.) Hmmm... Dice... can the borg get as many dice as the Troll in combat?
Eventually, the AI is going to want to mod it to a Rating 10 device... so 10 Response. Max rating for a PC AI is 6, so 10 + 3 = 13. They also use Gunnery for all their held weapons, so Aptitude = Gunnery 7, Ballistic specialization. They ignore recoil since they're drones, so figure +3 for something Full Auto firing tracers. Probably a minigun. + 4 for Tacnet.
So, 13 + 9 + 3 + 4 = 29
Figure the Vat Job Troll has a Genetic Optimization thrown in to get him to 6(9) for his max agility, firing Heavy Weapons 7 + Reflex Recorder = 8 or + Improved Ability = 10, Machine-Guns. +3 for tracers. +4 for Tacnet.
That gets you 9 + 10 / 12 + 3 + 4 = 25 / 27 dice.
However, a fully cheesed-out _ELF_ gets you Agility 10(15), for 31 / 33 dice total. Make it a human Vampire and it's 11(16) for, assuming Adept here, a DP of 34, on top of all the Vampire cheese. A sufficiently powerful Seal Shifter Adept would be 12(18), for 36 dice.
So, yeah, it's highly effective but not the be-all-end-all of builds.
Oh and, for some BS reason, AIs can't get 5 IPs. They have a base of 3 and can't access cyberware to get a Simsense Booster. That puts them at +3 to their attack dice and -1 to their IPs compared to a Jump-In rigger using the same drone.
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Can't all AI's just move their persona between nodes?
Yes they can, but they have some significant advantages to bringing their "home node" into the fray. They get Rating/2 added to all the Matrix Attributes of the node they're bonded to.
What 'JustADude' says, also works. Although from what I could tell, borg\drones were a little too powerful. You wind up with a super brain piloting a super body. The Troll Vat job will look pretty puny next to that. Probably the only downside would be maintenance and repair. (This ain't off the shelf stuff you're using, so filling it full of holes will be a big concern.) Hmmm... Dice... can the borg get as many dice as the Troll in combat?
Eventually, the AI is going to want to mod it to a Rating 10 device... so 10 Response. Max rating for a PC AI is 6, so 10 + 3 = 13. They also use Gunnery for all their held weapons, so Aptitude = Gunnery 7, Ballistic specialization. They ignore recoil since they're drones, so figure +3 for something Full Auto firing tracers. Probably a minigun. + 4 for Tacnet.
So, 13 + 9 + 3 + 4 = 29
Figure the Vat Job Troll has a Genetic Optimization thrown in to get him to 6(9) for his max agility, firing Heavy Weapons 7 + Reflex Recorder = 8 or + Improved Ability = 10, Machine-Guns. +3 for tracers. +4 for Tacnet.
That gets you 9 + 10 / 12 + 3 + 4 = 25 / 27 dice.
However, a fully cheesed-out _ELF_ gets you Agility 10(15), for 31 / 33 dice total. Make it a human Vampire and it's 11(16) for, assuming Adept here, a DP of 34, on top of all the Vampire cheese. A sufficiently powerful Seal Shifter Adept would be 12(18), for 36 dice.
So, yeah, it's highly effective but not the be-all-end-all of builds.
Oh and, for some BS reason, AIs can't get 5 IPs. They have a base of 3 and can't access cyberware to get a Simsense Booster. That puts them at +3 to their attack dice and -1 to their IPs compared to a Jump-In rigger using the same drone.
They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
Work up a commlink mod that will do the same thing for the AIs maybe?
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
Work up a commlink mod that will do the same thing for the AIs maybe?
Honestly, I'd say just give them a flat 5 IPs, since they're already fully digital, unrestrained by meat, and don't need simsense to comprehend The Matrix, period.
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
Work up a commlink mod that will do the same thing for the AIs maybe?
Honestly, I'd say just give them a flat 5 IPs, since they're already fully digital, unrestrained by meat, and don't need simsense to comprehend The Matrix, period.
But then you'd get people whining "overpowered, overpowered" all over the place.
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
Work up a commlink mod that will do the same thing for the AIs maybe?
Honestly, I'd say just give them a flat 5 IPs, since they're already fully digital, unrestrained by meat, and don't need simsense to comprehend The Matrix, period.
The same could be said for agents and pilots... I think that for balance reasons it should require a special mod of some sort... maybe an advanced program.
Or maybe you could rule that like cyborgs, they don't have to waste a complex action every turn just to prevent crashing. Then they'd effectively have the 5 of a rigger. Of course, that only helps if you're a pilot origin AI and can actually rig.
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snip Eventually, the AI is going to want to mod it to a Rating 10 device... so 10 Response. Max rating for a PC AI is 6, so 10 + 3 = 13. They also use Gunnery for all their held weapons, so Aptitude = Gunnery 7, Ballistic specialization. They ignore recoil since they're drones, so figure +3 for something Full Auto firing tracers. Probably a minigun. + 4 for Tacnet. snip
BTW, I don't believe drones ignore recoil. There is, for example, the Body Stablilizer vehicle mod for walkers, which, among other things, provides up to 3 points of recoil compensation.
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snip Eventually, the AI is going to want to mod it to a Rating 10 device... so 10 Response. Max rating for a PC AI is 6, so 10 + 3 = 13. They also use Gunnery for all their held weapons, so Aptitude = Gunnery 7, Ballistic specialization. They ignore recoil since they're drones, so figure +3 for something Full Auto firing tracers. Probably a minigun. + 4 for Tacnet. snip
BTW, I don't believe drones ignore recoil. There is, for example, the Body Stablilizer vehicle mod for walkers, which, among other things, provides up to 3 points of recoil compensation.
Drones suffering recoil is an optional rule (Arsenal, I believe), which is why things like the stabilizer exist. IIRC even with that rule, they get compensation equal to their Body, which is effectively "no recoil" for some larger vehicles.
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Oh, sweet, I hadn't realized that. Thanks :)
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What 'JustADude' says, also works. Although from what I could tell, borg\drones were a little too powerful. You wind up with a super brain piloting a super body. The Troll Vat job will look pretty puny next to that. Probably the only downside would be maintenance and repair. (This ain't off the shelf stuff you're using, so filling it full of holes will be a big concern.) Hmmm... Dice... can the borg get as many dice as the Troll in combat?
Yeah but one combat spell that gets more than 5 successes, will kill it. No resist. You are guaranteed 10P with 5 hits and the otomo's only have 11 boxes for damage...... I just lost one this past Saturday..
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BTW, I don't believe drones ignore recoil. There is, for example, the Body Stablilizer vehicle mod for walkers, which, among other things, provides up to 3 points of recoil compensation.
Drones suffering recoil is an optional rule (Arsenal, I believe), which is why things like the stabilizer exist. IIRC even with that rule, they get compensation equal to their Body, which is effectively "no recoil" for some larger vehicles.
Actually, the main reason for Body Stabilizer is to add +3 vs Knockdown.
The recoil comp is there, though, for GMs that think a drone the size of a small toaster firing a LMG should have... issues. ;)
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thanks for all the feedback. the setup i'm going to build is an emotitoy for social skill and elettronic warfere, and a mitsuhama omoto (nerfed down a bit to fit in availability 20) for combat. can someone explain to me why cyberweapon, that are on average with normal weapon has an availability so high ? i realy liked the idea of a combat athaform using cyberweapon popping out from anywhere, but whith availability usualy over 20 i can put in at max a pair of handgun, wich isn't so awsome...
the next question is: with pilot origin 2, what is the best metod to using them? jumpig in with pilot origin allow the AI, to use autosoft instead of the AI skill ( iirc this bring the pools identical to an autonomous drone, exept using the AI autosoft and not the drone autosoft). dose the AI suffer feedback when the drone get hit and he is jumped in? can the AI use a biofeedback program?
remote control as the drawback of using a complex action by the AI to do even a simple action with the drone right?
thanks for the great support
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dose the AI suffer feedback when the drone get hit and he is jumped in? can the AI use a biofeedback program?
Drones have no bio to feed back to, so biofeedback is moot.
They can't be affected by anything that explicitly causes Stun or Physical damage... pretty much making them immune to Blackout and Blackhammer, as well as Dumpshock and Biofeedback.
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What 'JustADude' says, also works. Although from what I could tell, borg\drones were a little too powerful. You wind up with a super brain piloting a super body. The Troll Vat job will look pretty puny next to that. Probably the only downside would be maintenance and repair. (This ain't off the shelf stuff you're using, so filling it full of holes will be a big concern.) Hmmm... Dice... can the borg get as many dice as the Troll in combat?
Yeah but one combat spell that gets more than 5 successes, will kill it. No resist. You are guaranteed 10P with 5 hits and the otomo's only have 11 boxes for damage...... I just lost one this past Saturday..
You do mean 5 net hits, yes? Because drones do still get a roll to resist combat spells (both direct and indirect).
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Yeah but one combat spell that gets more than 5 successes, will kill it. No resist. You are guaranteed 10P with 5 hits and the otomo's only have 11 boxes for damage...... I just lost one this past Saturday..
You do mean 5 net hits, yes? Because drones do still get a roll to resist combat spells (both direct and indirect).
Actually, I'm pretty sure they just get their OR as a fixed Threshold against Direct spells. You have to beat the OR to do anything to them, which means they essentially "buy hits" on their resistance rolls.
I'm also pretty sure they do still roll to evade and soak against Indirect spells, though.
Not near my books to check, though, so take my words for what they're worth.
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They can use the Accelerator though, can't they? (At least I don't think that one's an implant.)
Yeah, that's a commlink mod. It gets them from 3 IPs to 4 IPs.
Still means a Meat Rigger can go faster than an all-digital AI, though. Makes no frakin' sense.
Work up a commlink mod that will do the same thing for the AIs maybe?
Honestly, I'd say just give them a flat 5 IPs, since they're already fully digital, unrestrained by meat, and don't need simsense to comprehend The Matrix, period.
But then you'd get people whining "overpowered, overpowered" all over the place.
It really depends on your crew.
If they are more into the role playing (or not optimizers) then... yeah. They'll be miffed.
If they're all into cheesy fun, well, go that way.
Personally I'm an optimizer, but I don't like going overboard with it. It tends to result in one dimensional characters and play.