Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: TheWanderingJewels on <07-23-12/0703:45>
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Looks like I'm going to be Running a Cop Shop campaign here soon and I need ideas or the standard kit that KE officers will be carrying. any feed back would be appreciated
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KE officers go heavier than Lone Star, as a general rule. SMG instead of pistol, armored jacket + helmet instead of vest, beatsticks (natch), backup sidearm, rating 4 comm, tricked-out helmet (Low light, flare comp, micro-tranceiver) ... They also travel in packs of six, rather than pairs. The truck (They always go in Citymasters, not Patrol Cars) also have riot shields and combat shotguns.
Much rougher, but also less common due to grouping, so easier to avoid.
(Edit)
Here we go. This is the pic I have in my head for KE officer troupes.
(http://www.craiglotter.co.za/images/20081107_Jin-Roh.gif)
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And if you don't have 6 players, the empty squad slots can be story ideas: maybe they lost some teammates and resist every attempt at replacing them; or maybe fill those spots with NPC drivers or IAB babysitters.
Make sure that gear loadout is all built my Ares or a subsidiary. Talk about embarassing, KE getting caught preferring LoneStar sidearms.
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That's one way to load them out.
Keep in mind these are cops though, and their job is as much public service/customer service as it is scaring off bad guys. Loading up like they are going to a riot is no way to reassure the population that everything is fine. The image of peace and control is more important than actually having it since you can use spin to turn even the worst events to your advantage. Cops in SR should be responding with drones first, magic if that was reported and then a follow up with actual people. Outside of actual corporate security though, heavy pistols and armour jackets/helmets seem more reasonable. I can see them having an SMG and shotgun in the patrol car, but not as a standard carry around weapon.
Most stat blocks I've seen gear them out with the Jacket/helmet combo, an Ares Predator (of whatever vintage suits the time line), shock baton and a commlink of some sort. Don't forget incidentals, like cuffs or zapstraps/plastic restraints. This is the standard load out. Save the SMGs and APCs for an actual riot.
A few adventures stat them out, like Free Taiwan for example, if you want to check that out.
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...I can see them having an SMG and shotgun in the patrol car, but not as a standard carry around weapon. ...
If they're gonna have a "backup" gun in the car, they're not going to have "just" an SMG. It's more likely to be a full-blown Assault Rifle.
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Sure, go with that. :D My point was that they weren't likely to be packing SMGs as standard sidearm. I know in some jurisdictions, police carry assault rifles as the backup in the car today.
Basically I just don't see the cops that are on patrol being geared up as though they are going to assault some place. No need for it for one thing as a SWAT team is just a call away and they have the training to handle the heavy stuff. The other reason is expense. An Ares Predator is 350¥ and comes with a smartgun. Pop a smartlink into that helmet and you cut down on the chance a cop will hit a bystander. Cheap safety at 850 ¥.
Now an SMG is going to cost that much just on it's own. Never mind the mods and accessories needed to make sure it stays on target (recoil comp), the increased rate of ammo consumption and the PR nightmare of accidentally cutting down a crowd of people by accident if you cheap out on those mods. SMGs and larger guns make no sense for a patrol cop. They make no sense for a detective either. They are house clearing weapons and should be used by SWAT teams.
That's how I see it anyway. If you want your world to be that kind of nightmare, where the average citizen only feels safe if the cops are packing serious armour and guns and roam the streets in APCs, fly at it. Your game, your fun.
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That's one way to load them out.
Keep in mind these are cops though, and their job is as much public service/customer service as it is scaring off bad guys. Loading up like they are going to a riot is no way to reassure the population that everything is fine. The image of peace and control is more important than actually having it since you can use spin to turn even the worst events to your advantage. Cops in SR should be responding with drones first, magic if that was reported and then a follow up with actual people. Outside of actual corporate security though, heavy pistols and armour jackets/helmets seem more reasonable. I can see them having an SMG and shotgun in the patrol car, but not as a standard carry around weapon.
Most stat blocks I've seen gear them out with the Jacket/helmet combo, an Ares Predator (of whatever vintage suits the time line), shock baton and a commlink of some sort. Don't forget incidentals, like cuffs or zapstraps/plastic restraints. This is the standard load out. Save the SMGs and APCs for an actual riot.
A few adventures stat them out, like Free Taiwan for example, if you want to check that out.
Wellll, if it was Lone Star, I'd agree with you. LS, for all the issues with bribery and corruption and racism and handiness with a club, they really *do* have some actual police officers in there who do good ol' fashioned crime-fighting and community service. Armored jackets + helmet, a cannon of a heavy pistol, but, they come in pairs, in a patrol car or on bikes, and they do decent public relations work.
KE comes from a military background first, a corporate security second, and police a distant, distant third. They're riot-breakers and soldiers who operate in units, not in pairs, and who react with overwhelming force, rather than negotiation. They have a whole different philosphy, the core of which is "People that are afraid to fight back are docile." They don't *want* to be nice as it takes away their edge.
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Scaring the crap out of the Jane and John Does in the city will quickly get them to lose their precious new contract.
I agree, they'll be hardcore military once drek hits the fan; but they can't be patrolling the streets visibly equipped for heavy warfare.
The public won't feel safe. And while they will be too scared to fight back, they will push Mr. Mayor out of his office and vote for anyone who can get those safe-looking cops again.
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Scaring the crap out of the Jane and John Does in the city will quickly get them to lose their precious new contract.
I agree, they'll be hardcore military once drek hits the fan; but they can't be patrolling the streets visibly equipped for heavy warfare.
The public won't feel safe. And while they will be too scared to fight back, they will push Mr. Mayor out of his office and vote for anyone who can get those safe-looking cops again.
In that vein, and working under the assumption that you need at least Body 3 to pass the Academy, I recommend this loadout:
Victory "Industrious" Jumpsuit* - 4/2
PPP Forearm Guards - +0/+1
PPP Shin Guards - +0/+1
PPP Helmet - +0/+2
Half FFBA - +4/+1 (+2/+0 Encumb)
That puts you at 8/7, (6/6 for Encumbrance) and nobody looking at you is going to see much more armor than you'd see on an NYPD beat cop.
*To represent a discretely armored BDU-style uniform.
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I personally wouldn't worry too much if I see a cop wearing a Bulletproof Vest or something similar, certainly not if I know it's part of their standard gear.
But if I notice a squad of 6 "security personnel" in a armored vehicle, armed with automatic weapons and wearing ballistic masks, rolling down my street, I'd GTFO and feel quite unsafe.
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Here is the load out they used in missions SRM4-06 Hard Target:
Gear: Armor jacket (8/6), helmet (+1/+1, with built-in mic, headset, and
smartlink), stun baton, commlink (Device Rating 5)
Weapons:
Ares Predator IV [Heavy Pistol, DV 5P, AP –5, SA, RC —, 15(c), w/ APDS
ammo]
Defiance EX Shocker [Pistol, DV 8S(e), AP –half, SS , RC —, 4(m)]
Stun baton [Club, Reach 1, DV 6S(e), AP –half]
Now it does vary depending on where they will be and what their primary objective is, but this gives a good reference in my opinion. Also I think there is another mission that has them armed a bit better, but didn't see it right off hand.
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this looks good for standard cop
so KE uses fireteam tactics okay. So assuming things go to hell, what would a loadout for assault look like?
I've got a Giantess, a Troll, and a Ork in this so far. just seeing what we can come up with :)
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so KE uses fireteam tactics okay. So assuming things go to hell, what would a loadout for assault look like?
For things going "slightly" to hell, take a look at the SWAT armor from Arsenal.
For things going to hell in a hand basket, break out the Military Armor.
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^ And drone, hacker and magical support.
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For a go-to-hell situation, that is where they break out the bigger guns. Shotgun for entry team lead, SMGs or assault rifles for the rest, especially bullpup style rifles. Easier to handle indoors. Not sure I'd go to Milspec armour due to price. But certainly SWAT and ballistic shields if they would be useful. Also tear gas, flash bangs and smoke grenades. RFID marker bullets to clean up stragglers latter or the odd splash equipped grenade.
Since these guys are ex military, Ares Alphas seem a good idea as the weapon of choice for a go-to-hell situation. Bullpup and grenade launcher plus smartlink and some built in recoil comp to stay on target.
The other thing to remember is KE hired a bunch of LS guys when they took over the Seattle contract. So not every cop out there working KE is some former military bad ass. Lots of them are just cops with a new boss working the same old city.
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I remember the old Lonestar book (RIP Nigel) had the load outs for a heavy SWAT or FRT team being Shotguns and Assault rifles, but also an assault cannon and maybe a mini gun. SInce your team has 2 to 3 high strength characters, I'd think about kitting out with those. (Personally in my SR world view, the proliferation of orks and trolls in the 6th world is why they have assault cannon and miniguns designed to be portable and even have things like shoulder stocks since no normal human could realistically fire one.) Also if you're playing with Ares/KE, a nice laser weapon is too good to pass up.
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<snip> Not sure I'd go to Milspec armour due to price. <snip>
Price of weapons and equipment isn't really an issue for KE. They are the same company that's the world leading arms manufacturer. Even more than that, they're Damien Knight's personal pet project; he'll give them all the toys they need... up to and including tactical nukes to blow up a city.
As for KE and policing: It might be worth noting that KE is currently being led by Clayton Wilson, the man who originally founded Lonestar and responsible for making it the world's largest police/private-security agency. This man knows how to make them act like a police force instead of a military organization.
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<snip> Not sure I'd go to Milspec armour due to price. <snip>
As for KE and policing: It might be worth noting that KE is currently being led by Clayton Wilson, the man who originally founded Lonestar and responsible for making it the world's largest police/private-security agency. This man knows how to make them act like a police force instead of a military organization.
Funny thing about ol' CLayton ... while he loved him some cowboy movies, he wasn't an ex-cop or a Texas Ranger or anything like that.
He's a corporate raider.
Wilson's whole stock in trade was to look around, find bargains, zip in, rip the place up, keep the profitable parts, hurl the leftovers into some dummy's hands who'd pay him far too much for it, then laugh all the way to the bank. He only got into security because A) he had a fetish for Texas Rangers and, far more importantly, B) he saw instability ahead and knew that he could make Mad Phat Bank off of security services. He's a clever man, not a genius but aware of trends, charasmatic, and bold. He saw a chance to make money and did so.
He's not the guy people think he is.
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<snip> Not sure I'd go to Milspec armour due to price. <snip>
Price of weapons and equipment isn't really an issue for KE. They are the same company that's the world leading arms manufacturer. Even more than that, they're Damien Knight's personal pet project; he'll give them all the toys they need... up to and including tactical nukes to blow up a city.
It still costs a company something to make the gear and a weapon/armour "given" to KE is one they can't sell somewhere else for profit. I can't see mega-corps becoming such by ignoring the bottom line that way. Cheap MilSpec armour is more than a car in price and not really needed when SWAT would do at a third the price. I mean if price is no object, then why doesn't KE patrol in GMC Banshees (Ares owns that corp) and use orbital lasers for a SWAT team?
Really, for me, that level of gearing up just breaks the illusion. Standard cops roaming the streets in milspec gear with riot cars is just too much. I can't even see it for SWAT. We are talking about cops here, not the military and not corp-sec at a high security facility. And they can't even reuse the milspec armour since it is custom fitted to the user.
Shadowrunners break these rules because they pay for their own gear, don't pay taxes and don't have to answer to anyone else for their actions. They are one offs for the most part; 1 assault rifle, 1 suit of armour, 1 SMG. Once we step up to corps and governments, you get into 100s or 1000s of an item and all the crap that goes along with it. Maintenance, ammo supply, quartermaster to track it all.
The OP asked about standard kits for KE cops. So some armour, a sidearm, commlink and restraints. Some heavier stuff in the car if things go wrong but in that case they should call in SWAT. Even if the cop wanted this stuff, unless he buys it himself, the corp isn't just going to hand it out. Too expensive and better saved for spec ops or SWAT.
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<snip> Not sure I'd go to Milspec armour due to price. <snip>
Price of weapons and equipment isn't really an issue for KE. They are the same company that's the world leading arms manufacturer. Even more than that, they're Damien Knight's personal pet project; he'll give them all the toys they need... up to and including tactical nukes to blow up a city.
Right about here, many people working for corps groaned at the idea of having adequate gear to do their job, and those in IT threw a monitor. :)
Corps don't get rich by giving things away. They keep paperclips locked in a storage closet that only one person gets a key for, and everyone who gets a box has to sign a clipboard to keep a count. Palletjacks with bad wheels, but that still roll, are kept in use with duct tape and prayers, and police officers get to fill out a sheet of paperwork for each and every bullet fired.
Heck, bar codes were invented so that the Army could keep inventory!
I'm certain that there's at least one IT guy in the thread somewhere... how easy is it to get your servers updated to the newest standards?
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I'm certain that there's at least one IT guy in the thread somewhere... how easy is it to get your servers updated to the newest standards?
I work for a video game company and we're running on last year's tech patched with duct tape and bubble gum.
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Well...Let's look at what the RL LAPD has...
Officer has his side-arm, a taser, his baton, and the best non-military ballistic armour vest(Last I heard..Dragon Scale?).
In the front seat, in the console, he has a 12 Gauge pump shotgun.
In the trunk he has "The Locker." It includes an AR-15, Grenade launcher with: Tear Gas, Concussion, Flash-Bang
grenades. Rounding it out: a military surplus, disposable LAW.
In Shadowrun, we can suppose that the side-arm would be a Predator IV to go with the smartlink in his glasses,
an armoured jacket with FFBA underneath(one of which likely with Non-Conductive 6), a taser and stun-baton.
The Locker would likely have an Ares Alpha with the same basic grenade loads, and a light anti-armour rocket/missile.
This is going to be the set up for their "Beat Cops."
Each Beat Cop, I expect, will also be reporting to a mobile command vehicle(the Citymaster with 6 guys in it). This
mobile command vehicle doubles as a HTRT for the Beat Cops, monitors their vitals, and runs the drones above its
assigned patrol area. The guys inside there..will have Security-grade armour with helmets with their smartlinks,
etc. They will likely carry standard the Ares Alpha, with a CC Spec carrying an Ares Beta and a Heavy Spec who
can grab a Thunderstruck or Machinegun as need arises. Backup weapons in the Big Locker will likely include
heavy anti-vehicle missile, and HVARs.
From there, of course, the command vehicle can call upon SWAT or any other resources needed. Likely, the
command vehicle will also dispatch the Hearts and Mind Beat Cops where they are needed for lower threat
calls(the domestic violcence complaints, the shoplifting, etc) while they respond to the higher threat calls
(armed robbery, guns fired within city limits, etc).
At least..this is how I would run Knight Errant.
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Why the hell does the LAPD carry a rocket launcher? ???
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Why the f&%# does the LAPD carry a rocket launcher? ???
Because things like the North Hollywood Shootout, armored car jackings, and Compton have taught that it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, I suppose
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Sorry, Mara, but where are you getting the info that every LAPD cruiser keeps a LAW in the trunk?
Because the closest to that I've ever heard is their SWAT (along with many other SWAT teams, don't get me wrong) having regular access to 37 or 40mm grenade launchers (primarily for tear gas, CS, and whatnot). I've never heard anything about milsurp LAWs being ANYTHING like standard issue, with any American police force.
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According to Wikipedia's LAPD Article:
S&W 4566 .45ACP or Glock 22/17 or Beretta 92FS
Ithaca Model 37 Shotgun (upgrading to semi-auto M4 Super 90 currently)
37mm grenade launcer
Certified officers carry an AR-15 firing .223
Edit: there's a huge list of acceptable pistols, all Glock, Beretta, or S&W, and mostly 9mm or .45 ACP
Edit 2: Apparently the beat cop body armor isn't so hot either, intended mainly to stop .22 caliber or 9mm rounds
Edit 3: I keep finding things. Even U.S. military police arent much better off; trade the AR-15 for M4s, the Ithaca for semi-auto Mossbergs, and throw in full Kevlar vest and helmet when necessary. Also, an X26 TASER, which LAPD doesnt consider standard issue strangely.
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Sorry, Mara, but where are you getting the info that every LAPD cruiser keeps a LAW in the trunk?
Because the closest to that I've ever heard is their SWAT (along with many other SWAT teams, don't get me wrong) having regular access to 37 or 40mm grenade launchers (primarily for tear gas, CS, and whatnot). I've never heard anything about milsurp LAWs being ANYTHING like standard issue, with any American police force.
Show on history channel a couple years ago where the officer showed what they had in the locker in their trunk.
Only one thing with an olive drab, collapsable tube that I know of...
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and they did have to take on a stolen tank once, on the highway...............
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and they did have to take on a stolen tank once, on the highway...............
Still doesn't make sense. The best a LAW can hope for against an M1A1 is to knock a tread off. But still, military hardware like that in the hands of cops is a bit far-fetched in the real world. Way too much collateral.
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Yeah, sorry, I just don't buy it. The militarization of the police is a very real thing, don't get me wrong, but I don't see LAWs being in the trunk of your average cruiser, LAPD or otherwise.
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Upon further thought, the initially mentioned History Channel special thing could very well have been a "wish List" -type of thing, vice actual deployment of gear, since I know LAPD has been asking for dragonskin for a while.
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For your average beat cop here's the loadout I'd suggest. Based on what the RCMP gave my old man.
-Ares Predator IV loaded with hollow points, two spare magazines.
-1 or 2 sets of plasteel restriants.
-I can of Pepper Punch
-Standard old Armour Vest from the main book. Maybe some extra plating if the accountants are feeling generous.
-Mid tier commlink for all purpose evidence documentation and communication.
-Plastic gloves.
-Stun baton or collapsible baton.
-All important handcuff keys!
-Defiance Super Shocker for the odd person who needs to tase a bro.
-MAGLITE style flashlight, works great as a backup baton.
-DocWagon monitoring tied to commlink PAN.
-1 or 2 puffers of Jazz.
Then slap a mid-grade shotgun in the car (Remington 990 or Defiance T-250) and maybe have an Ares Alpha with the patrol supervisor's car for those times where you need some dakka and can't wait for SWAT. I'm guessing the only grenades for the Alpha are CS or flashbangs. Anything else wouldn't exactly safe for law-enforcement use, eh?
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Times like this, I really miss Lone Star being the Seattle cops instead of KE. They're better established and we had loadouts for everything already.
Should KE be more heavily armed than the Star? Less? More or less corrupt? More or les racist? How prepared are they?
If you just file off "Lone Star" from all the badges and Sharpie in "Knight Errant" and otherwise see no change, why do it?
(Sorry, an old bug for me ... change for change's sake is stupid. Nobody wants it. GROWTH, people want, change that's tied in with the world and what characters go through, sure, but just "Today, Batman will wear orange, whee!" is just silly.)
Admitedly, quite a few officers *did* just change the owner of their uniform and call it a day, but, it'd be nice to see different proceedures and the like laid out.
The old Lone Star loadout was:
Armored Jacket
Helmet
Heavy Pistol (The Thunderbolt, which had a BF mode in addition to SA)
2 spare clips
Taser
Club
Radio (Which would be a Commlink today, rating 3 most likely)
The car had the computer system (Which would be a stronger commlink with a MUCH higher signal (Say, Comm 4, signal 5), an SMG, riot shield, and some grenades (Flashbang, Smoke, and Defensive, two of each I think. I should grab the book.)
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Alright, here we go Lone Star Sourcebook, Page 126 has officer loads for different troopers. The Auto Trooper (The 'default' officer) has:
Armored Vest with Plates (4/3), Helmet, Commlink (Radio back then), Ruger Super Warhawk w/ laser sight and 24 extra rounds (But no speed loader. Wonder if they existed in the rules then?), Stun Baton.
Foot Patrol officers have the same gear.
Fast Response Teams include a Smartlink and Wired 1 as standard augmentations, Full Heavy Armor with Helmet and Helmet COmmlink, Colt Manhunter Smartgun with 2 extra clips, HK227-S with smartlink and 2 extra clips, shock gloves, stun baton, OR (Doesn't say what gets replaced, but) AUG-CSL Assault Rifle (Internal smartlink, thermo scope, 2 clips) OR CMDT/SM combat shotgun with internal smartlink and 3 spare clips OR MA 2100 Sniping Rifle with thermographic magnification scope.
(Yikes!)
It's noted that Lone Star invented Jazz to give troopers a chance against Cyber crooks, but no officer has it as a standard load back in '54. It's also noted that Lone Star's decker R&D invented the Black Hammer program, with Fastjack called out for helping create it.
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(But no speed loader. Wonder if they existed in the rules then?)
They didn't. Not until 4th edition.
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(But no speed loader. Wonder if they existed in the rules then?)
They didn't. Not until 4th edition.
Call it yet another case of the guys writing the material having no real-world experience with the stuff they're writing about.
Speed loaders existed way before the 1980s "divergence point" when SR1 was published. Late 19th century, in fact, if memory serves. They just didn't know about them to put them in, or didn't think they'd be "useful".
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Blame Hollywood for not showing them often enough. Shadowrun is far more movies' reality than our reality.
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Blame Hollywood for not showing them often enough. Shadowrun is far more movies' reality than our reality.
Easy way to tell that: Clips are those things that you use on most modern pistols, SMGs, and automatic rifles,
Magazines are those tubes for a Shotgun or an old repeating rifle. I know that what they call "clips" are
actually called "magazines"..I wonder what the shotgun/repeater thing is called?
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.I wonder what the shotgun/repeater thing is called?
We just referred to it as "the tube" when we were issued Mossbergs in Iraq. "I've got 3 shots left in the tube"
(Edit) Upon minor Google-fu, it's apparently called a Magazine. Whee generic terms
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/shotgun-parts.gif
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Box magazine for the "clip " you would put in a pistol and internal magazine for the "tube" in a shotgun or repeater. Wikipedia has an article on it. A clip in proper use is actual a metal retaining clip used to insert rounds into a box magazine.
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MAGAZINE-The place where the ammo hangs out until it gets to have a high speed sexy party.
CLIP-Something that hold bullets together for certain firearms that makes reloading quicker. Like a party bus, for bullets. (Moon clips for revolvers, stripper clips for drek like the M1 Garand.)
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MAGAZINE-The place where the ammo hangs out until it gets to have a high speed sexy party.
CLIP-Something that hold bullets together for certain firearms that makes reloading quicker. Like a party bus, for bullets. (Moon clips for revolvers, stripper clips for drek like the M1 Garand.)
Don't start this argument again... It serves no purpose.
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Oh frag....
Didn't know I was starting anything. I'll give myself 40 whacks with the wet noodle, then.
Besides we're not here to talk gun terminology, we're here to establish the KE standard loadouts!
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Putting six cops in one vehicle does not make business or law enforcement sense. They will have a limited number for a set district and assign them to cars or even foot patrol as needed. The main job is to give the SINners the the illusion of security. APCs show that trouble is coming.
Most of the Southern California law enforcement agencies have a list of approved firearms that they may purchase and carry on duty. Most of my LAPD friends would have mentioned the antitank rocket training. They have to get certification in any weapon they carry or might use (things like flash lights).
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They have to get certification in any weapon they carry or might use (things like flash lights).
Ah, the 6D Maglite... so much "self-defense" potential, and it's not even legally considered a weapon. ;D
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A case in Glendale, CA got thrown out for hitting a suspect with a maglite. They added it to the training along with tazers, pepper spray, the pr 24 nightstick and firearms.
Glendale is surrounded by LA, and has under 30 on patrol, and could not see them paying a private company to have more on patrol.
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The Maglite was my dad's preferred tool for that sort of thing.
Ahhh.....the RCMP in the 80s.
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And the 70s and the 60s and even the 90s. Now it's all taser, taser taser. Where is the fun in that? :P After looking through a few more sources, it would seem the biggest equipment difference between LS and KE cops is the KE ones seem to have wired reflexes level 1 far more often. LS resorts to Jazz, a cheap alternative and much of the gear in the LS source books shows LS as being generally cheap with gear. Armour vest, Ruger Superwarhawks and similar low end gear.
KE seems to spend a little more on common gear, like the Ares Predator but not much else.
Really, one of the reasons to play an alternative campaign like this is to control gear access. The players get issued what they need as the job comes up and the really big toys only come out when needed. I think something that would be useful is to know just what sort of cops campaign is being played here. Detectives? Beat cops? SWAT unit or some sort of special task force guys? They would all be kitted out differently, depending on focus.
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I know a Ventura Country Sheriff who was the last to give up a revolver when he retired about 5 years ago. I also have a friend whose father was on LAPD SWAT in the 1970s the standard weapon was the M1 Grande, now it is a mix that is a based on assignment.