Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Glorthoron on <08-01-12/1724:37>
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Your Mage has been given an address of a location that he needs to investigate astrally. How would you allow it to be handled?
Obviously it is not as simple as reading street signs and numbers, since you can't read those from astral space.
Would it be as simple as him looking on Mitsuhama Maps and locating the building from his location; then going astral and counting the number of streets north and the number of streets west to his location?
Or do you think he should have to go and locate his destination on the physical world before being able to travel there astrally?
Or do you have other thoughts on the subject?
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Orientation in astral space is not easy. Some astral landmarks like awakened churches and monuments or zones with high background count are the best orientation aid you have there. This is the reason why my mages always have the navigation skill with an astral navigation specialization.
For example, the highly awakened cathedral of Aachen is said to be a famous astral landmark for projecting mages (Schatten über Aachen in the new german Mephisto magazine).
Another method is to have a mindlink up to someone who is looking at a map and can direct you (a trick my mage plays with her ally spirit quite often).
Spirits would have the same problem, so maybe they should have the navigation skill?
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I have a player who is of the mind that he should be able to find things easily on the astral plane because all he has to do is count streets and buildings. I'm trying to find a way to diswade this train of thought.
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Memory test, with modifiers based on:
How far he has to travel
- +2 if located within a block or 2
- +0 same neighbourhood
- -2 same district
- -6 neighbouring district
- -10 same city
How astrally significant the location is
- -/+ based on background count
If the mage has been their before.
- +2 been to the location before
- +4 to +8 has emotional significane to the mage
Other Modifiers
- Wound modifiers (of course)
- +2 to +4 Location stands out, eg Acrology like ACHE (but then finding a place inside the ACHE....)
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Or you could, you know, Manifest and read a street sign.......... Just have Local Area Knowledge and it should be no problem.
Do you guys really wanna get bogged down in that much minutiae? The finding of the place? The recon once they arrive, yeah go all out on that part but the "cut scene" to travel there?
I could see if its some where hidden or disguised but "Hey go recon building so and so over in neighborhood such and such."? If you wanna just say it takes them a bit longer to find a building that's somewhere they don't know that's fine but they are traveling at the speed of thought..... so how long is that really gonna take?
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An Easy Way is : summon a watcher. Ask him to find the location. rejoin him.
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This is the reason why my mages always have the navigation skill with an astral navigation specialization.
that's what I would do. One can also default on INT-1. A local area knowledge skill check should help, too. If I have a mage that's using projection a lot, I give him "Seattle astral space" as a knowledge skill. That convinces every GM.
@Glorthoron: let him role Navigation.
@DarkLloyd: This is in no way harassing mages. They're powerful enough :D. They shouldn't get a free access pass to everything. One hit should be enough. But if he glitches, I tell him he got lost.
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This is the reason why my mages always have the navigation skill with an astral navigation specialization.
that's what I would do. One can also default on INT-1. A local area knowledge skill check should help, too. If I have a mage that's using projection a lot, I give him "Seattle astral space" as a knowledge skill. That convinces every GM.
@Glorthoron: let him role Navigation.
@DarkLloyd: This is in no way harassing mages. They're powerful enough :D. They shouldn't get a free access pass to everything. One hit should be enough. But if he glitches, I tell him he got lost.
I wasn't saying that it was harassment on mages. I was just thinking that, unless for the sake of the game you have done something to hide the place where they are going, there is no point in taking time to go thru a back and forth about the journey instead of spending that session time resolving the recon itself. If you have let the GM make a roll with whatever mods he wants to come up with and just say it takes this long.
I just didnt get the point. I like to get as much out of my game time as possible.
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I'll second that DarkLloyd. I mean the magician could just levitate or look around and see where a place is in real space, go back to ground and then go there astrally. Or any of a number of other navigation methods, but really, you don't ask the street sam to make navigation tests to get to a place so why make the magician do it? If it isn't part of the story then it just becomes needless dice rolling. Nothing more pointless than rolling dice just for the sake of rolling dice. The players will figure a way there no matter what and then they become resentful at what appears to be the GM throwing pointless obstacles in their way.
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Or you could, you know, Manifest and read a street sign.
I always thought that you are still astrally perceiving while manifesting. It says nothing about being able to use your physical senses, just making yourself visible to non astral active persons (as a purely pschic effect, so it's not even physical). That's why I ruled that out in my post above.
But please correct me there if I understood that one wrong. It would change my game quite a bit, because astral surveillance would be much more useful that way. ???
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Or you could, you know, Manifest and read a street sign.
I always thought that you are still astrally perceiving while manifesting. It says nothing about being able to use your physical senses, just making yourself visible to non astral active persons (as a purely pschic effect, so it's not even physical). That's why I ruled that out in my post above.
But please correct me there if I understood that one wrong. It would change my game quite a bit, because astral surveillance would be much more useful that way. ???
I'm pretty sure you are right on this one.
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While I agree that this is really up to the game, the gm and the players, I think long distance travel in the Astral is a bit different from a SS driving his bike through the street.
I think Astral travel for a short distance should be reletively simple, the fact that a mage can travel long distances at the speed of thought can complicate things.
A city, specially the Seattle Metroplex, is a big place. Travelling from Fort Worth to Tacoma should be a bit of a challenge without a map. A SS can consult street signs, his GPS, Grid Guide, whatever, to find a particular unit, in a particular building, in a particular street in a particular neighbourhood in a particular district (and so forth). But a mage whose never been there before? With out any maps (unless they memorise it and can match astral imagery to real world landmarks)... how to the find Bradley Lane, of Landfall Crecent, in Daisy Park, etc etc. I think its a challenge.
That said, it depends on the GM and the game. In my games, mages use Astral to scout locations, usually leaving their body with their buds in a nearby car. Alternatively, they use ritual magic to track a person down accross long distances... but they are using a material link, not a street map.
If Mages started flying accross the city without a material link etc... I would start asking them to check if they get lost. The city is a big place to travel without some form a guide...
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You cannot manifest and read a street sign.
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You cannot manifest and read a street sign.
Citation?
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You cannot manifest and read a street sign.
Citation?
Yes, please.
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p.191 of SR4A Astral Perception,
"Non-magical and non-living objects have only gray, lackluster
shadows rather than auras, but pick up impressions from being
in contact with living auras. Assensing can read any impressions left
behind on an object."
Nothing in the manifesting section on page 193 alters that.
"Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician
wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.
Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make
itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.
Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting
characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy
images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike
the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not
create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact
with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because
manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected,
recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting
beings are still subject to astral attacks."
I seem to recall in previous editions it was even more explicit on this point up to and including fiction materials describing trying to read on the astral plane as a frustratign experience because the text all came back as gibberish.
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p.191 of SR4A Astral Perception,
"Non-magical and non-living objects have only gray, lackluster
shadows rather than auras, but pick up impressions from being
in contact with living auras. Assensing can read any impressions left
behind on an object."
Nothing in the manifesting section on page 193 alters that.
"Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician
wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.
Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make
itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.
Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting
characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy
images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike
the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not
create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact
with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because
manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected,
recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting
beings are still subject to astral attacks."
I seem to recall in previous editions it was even more explicit on this point up to and including fiction materials describing trying to read on the astral plane as a frustratign experience because the text all came back as gibberish.
Reading this also makes me think that a manifesting character could not hear all of the sounds going on around him when he is manifest, as communication would be a psychic communication, seeming to the manifesting character and the mundane character as though they were actually talking, as this is the easiest way the human brain would be able to translate this communication. However, there would be no transmission of sound.
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The real plus to this is it helps cut down on astral spying on mundane targets.
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The real plus to this is it helps cut down on astral spying on mundane targets.
Well, you could still manifest and hear what a mundane target is saying (because you could establish this link psychically from behind, where he cannot see you). Or would the mundane character become aware of you as soon as you establish that psychic link?
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Generally I hold that there is no way to subtlety manifest. In order to communicate with a manifested target one must intend to. By the book raw manifested characters can't even be communicated with, but I tend to intentionally overlook that.
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Generally I hold that there is no way to subtlety manifest. In order to communicate with a manifested target one must intend to. By the book raw manifested characters can't even be communicated with, but I tend to intentionally overlook that.
citation?
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See above.
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"Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician
wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.
Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make
itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.
Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting
characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy
images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike
the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not
create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact
with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because
manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected,
recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting
beings are still subject to astral attacks."
By the book raw manifested characters can't even be communicated with, but I tend to intentionally overlook that.
I think your two quotes contradict each other, but since your original quote was from the rules, I would say that by the book, raw manifested characters can be communicated with. Unless you mean something else by your second quote
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On second read I might be reading it too narrowly took it to mean that that it was poor wording and the connection was 1 way. I can definitely see an argument for communicate being both ways. I'm going to concede i'm wrong and go to bed. :)
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The rules don't say you can, but they don't you can't either. I don't think any side can legitimately claims the other is wrong.
As as far as the English language goes, being "visible and audible" doesn't mean you can see and hear. Now a lot of people consider the "freely" part in "freely communication" means you can talk and hear, an thus that you can see to respect symmetry (the astral space would also otherwise be sued for discrimination against deaf-mute people, closed by a court order, and the Sixth World would end). Street sign are not "physical characters" but reading a sign is often not considered a "physical interaction" (people who studied physical optics aside).
So it's all up to the gamemaster.
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I'm not sure that's the case. The sections could be written clearer true but here's at least my read.
Astral Perception is not regular vision or senses. Your reading auras and impressions, not actual things. Non living things especially don't have proper auras, they pick up emotional imprints. A knife might pick up the scream of the victim stabbed repeatedly with it, Moby Dick might pick up the anger of Ahab, or it might pick up the authors love for the book.
Manifesting is a communications tool, a bone thrown to people by the game designers so their not completely disconnected when their gone astral. I'm fine with that, but people try and read more into it then it is. If there was astral evesdroping of any sort the setting would be fundamentally changed to refect that.