Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: grumble on <08-24-12/1726:38>
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a question for the experienced players out there......
Is it a requirement for hackers to be better at the cybercombat skill than most?
i imagine hackers in the game who dont use cybercombat over the other computer skills. maybe have a less than 3 in that skill to start?
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Cybercombat is definitely not required to be a hacker. Not getting caught is more important. The big problems with cybercombat are:
1) Frequently, cybercombat means you lost. If you hack into a system to do something like conceal a break in, and then cyber-punch everyone in the face, it didn't really help.
2) You can't make people fight you. Black IC sadly doesn't work very well, here, because you can always jam yourself offline. And nothing really stops people from AR hacking and thus having no real consequences for losing cybercombat.
3) There are almost always better ways of dealing with opponents, or there are better ways for them to deal with you, such as just kicking people off the system, unloading IC using admin powers, or the like.
4) Agents can do it for you, and probably better than you too because of Cascading.
Point 2 is mitigated, a bit, if you are so rad at cybercombat you can oneshot people, but that's actually very very hard as a hacker.
Now, it's not true that cybercombat has no uses. But if I had to pick one hacking related skill to not have, it would be cybercombat, no contest.
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thanks for the reply :)
im sort of building a logic to use skills to replace attacking as much as possible. maybe some defensive programs to say.... assist others in combat.
what is cascading?
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It's an agent autosoft in Unwired.
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If you've trapped the alert icons and entry ports with Pavlovian databombs to prevent infinite reinforcement syndrome, and have control of the alarms and doors, then (and basically only then,) you can use cybercombat to seal the deal on a computer system.
After all, it's a lot harder lock down a computer system with spiders still inside. But if you can cut them off and kick them out, then you've got them trapped and trying to scream for help through blast doors.
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interesting vector..... :D
a databomb would lock your icon in the node also, i thought. but its going to crash eventually......
and ive been looking at ways to interact with nodes without being present in it.
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If you've trapped the alert icons and entry ports with Pavlovian databombs to prevent infinite reinforcement syndrome, and have control of the alarms and doors, then (and basically only then,) you can use cybercombat to seal the deal on a computer system.
Wouldn't a defuse program on the part of your adversaries be sufficient to get around this?
It seems like the better solution is to have admin access, and simply ban all access IDs that are not your own from the node. Then, you can either terminate connection, disarm, turn off, or cybercombat any spiders/IC remaining.
It's not clear to me if your ban on all other access IDs would stop a spider (or agent) from Hacking on the Fly to get back in.
After all, it's a lot harder lock down a computer system with spiders still inside. But if you can cut them off and kick them out, then you've got them trapped and trying to scream for help through blast doors.
See above, but here's an interesting point: Does a non-pavlov-ed data bomb on a node result in the node crashing if you attempt to enter the node? I assumed so, but that tells you a lot about a node: If it has a non-pavloved-data bomb on it, that's evidence the node is not doing all that much, since the people who own the node don't care if it crashes.
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What is a pavlovian data bomb? i imagine a conditional situation added to a regular data bomb program.
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Well, in fairness, it really just means that the people who own it would rather it crash than be compromised.
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What is a pavlovian data bomb? i imagine a conditional situation added to a regular data bomb program.
It's an option for databombs to stay armed when detonating.
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Sounds like a its a self preserving quality of a program.
In the event of a crash and reboot the data the pavlovian databomb is still active?
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It's not clear to me if your ban on all other access IDs would stop a spider (or agent) from Hacking on the Fly to get back in.
Siimply response is, no you can't because then a lot of things become effectively unhackable if a lot of things become effectively hackable hacking becomes less/non-viable. If hacking is no longer viable it is in a very real way to me, no longer shadowrun. Therefore outside of some very rare and singular situations you can always hack a device on the fly.
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It's not clear to me if your ban on all other access IDs would stop a spider (or agent) from Hacking on the Fly to get back in.
Siimply response is, no you can't because then a lot of things become effectively unhackable if a lot of things become effectively hackable hacking becomes less/non-viable. If hacking is no longer viable it is in a very real way to me, no longer shadowrun. Therefore outside of some very rare and singular situations you can always hack a device on the fly.
I agree in general, but ruling this way would not have that effect -- it would just require a successful check on the relatively trivial spoof-your-access-ID to get back in with your Hack on the Fly.
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the spoof-your-access-ID replaces the hack on the fly attempt?
or adds to the pool when making the attempt?
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Except that spoof only works if you have a valid ID to work from, if there's no way to analyze something to get a valid ID then basically it's a closed system. And closed systems are bad from a gameplay standpoint.
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Except that spoof only works if you have a valid ID to work from, if there's no way to analyze something to get a valid ID then basically it's a closed system. And closed systems are bad from a gameplay standpoint.
I imagine that a character can get an id from a data trail in a pinch or from a previously hacked account/node?
but it may take too long to travel that route. Assuming its the right ID that is :-\
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id like to add intercepted traffic for a possible id source too.
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Also, only slaves, peripherals, and things with Pilot are spoof able anyways. "Allow haxxor y/n" options are not a good thing.
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Yep pretty much.
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Except that spoof only works if you have a valid ID to work from, if there's no way to analyze something to get a valid ID then basically it's a closed system. And closed systems are bad from a gameplay standpoint.
Well, I agree. Just a debate about RAW, or at least consequences of various interpretations.
However, thinking about it, this is the way to make it completely abusable:
It's been established that banning an access ID from a system is insufficient in and of itself to remove the user's _current_ subscription from the system. You have to terminate connection, or do some admin-y stuff to remove them from the subscription list.
So, consider the following scenario:
(i) Take over a node
(ii) Disarm or disable any offensive IC
(iii) Terminate connection of any spiders
(iv) Apply policy of "_no_ access IDs allowed to connect to node"
(v) Remain on node like a hacker pimp.
At this point, if it were the case that Hacking on the Fly could not circumvent the access ID ban, then you would have an unhackable node, which is definitely not something we ever want.
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Yes, that's kind of our point. If it could be done it would be done all the time.
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Also, only slaves, peripherals, and things with Pilot are spoof able anyways. "Allow haxxor y/n" options are not a good thing.
[See post: I agree, abusable scenarios are not a good idea]
It is worth pointing out that what I was proposing was not a 'spoof of the node', but rather spoofing your access ID at the source. I was referring to the fact that you can alter your access ID (Hacking + Software (2) temp, Hardware + Logic (2) [permanent, or free for technomancers). This would allow you to circumvent an admin command of 'ban all access IDs except that of my own' when logging into the node.
This does bring up a question:
Can an access ID be logged into a node twice? It seems not, given that agents (at least) have this restriction (pg 110, UW).
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If you spoof your ID before sending it to a node, and im assuming that its not an ID listed on the defending node......
but i dont think that's what your trying to do.
or...
Changing (spoofing) the access Admin account's access ID to a slaved node. would have no positive effect since;
either your already a trusted subscriber to the slave node as you already hacked the node your on.
or the spider's ID is still the only legit ID after issuing the command.
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well no access ids alowed to connect... well what would the point in the node be then. I mean you might as well turn off wireless (unhackable). I dont see the problem. But you could still find an exploit that convinced it not that you conected to the node but had always been there. Thats the point of exploits, its and unforseen counter. So even to No access ids can connect there will still be exploits. But even if it was unhackable dont see the problem.