Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Dracain on <09-14-12/2311:50>
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What would you say is the lowest recommended initiative score for a combat focused character (street sam, adept, combat mage)? This is after all the buffs they get from magic/augs.
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Four with 1 pass. Basically as long as it isn't at the absolute minimum (leaving both Reaction and Intuition at 1) and it fits the character, it's all good :)
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Lowest recommended initiative I'd let myself have on a combat based character is 11.
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It's really gonna vary from game to game (like a lot of other suggestions/earmarks/recommendations). For a solid rough estimate, though, you can just take a look at the archetypes (who are, compared to some dedicated combat guys built with non-core options, kind of anemic). When in doubt, a comparison with the core Street Samurai archetype isn't a terrible starting point for any combat-oriented character, in my opinion.
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This is going to vary from group to group, apparently, but for a combat character I've found that 3 Initiative Passes is the norm in every game I've played in, and usually a total initiative score of around 10 (4 in Reaction and Intuition with +2 from the Initiative enhancer, be it Wired Reflexes, adept powers or a spell.)
Really, it depends on your group. If possible, you don't want to have less IPs than the other PCs, because then you spend a lot of time waiting around and doing nothing while everybody else gets to participate.
Four IPs is pretty much never seen in a starting character, as it requires the expenditure of so many resources (Essence, Power Points, etc.) that you'll have almost nothing else. Two IPs might be fine, but three is just a little bit more cost for such a big advantage... so it tends to end up at three. Plus, that's how many IPs a hot-sim VR rigger/hacker/technomancer will have, which makes me suspect that the game designers felt the same way. (See above re: all the PCs going at the same speed so nobody is stuck waiting.)
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Personal recommendations:
For a sammie, 12, because there's no reason for your Reaction to not be at the augmented maximum, and your Intuition should be at least average. For an adept, 10, because you will have either a synaptic booster: 2 or improved reflexes: 2, but no reaction enhancers. For a combat mage, 10+, because Reaction and Intuition (assuming an intuition-based tradition) should be soft-maxed, then an increase reflexes spell should be adding to that.
Because if combat is your primary focus, you should be good at it. Don't worry about being "overpowered" - there will still be plenty out there that can hurt your character.
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I have to post a contrast to Glyph.
If you want to be tweaked out for combat to the point that either a) you seem near untouchably badass or b) the GM throws seriously dangerous and heavily combat tweaked bad dudes into the game frequently to keep you feeling challenged... and with the outcome being solely up to your GM (meaning he will decide whether he wants to try and challenge you or let your investment shine), I'd advise erring on the side of caution.
Aim for "fast enough", not "the fastest" and see where the GM is going to take things - reaction 3 (4) with intuition 3, for a total augmented initiative of 7 with 2 passes - and enough points for attributes and cash to still do whatever you would like.
Of course, it is worth noting that I use 2nd Edition's initiative rules with SR4A attributes (your initiative passes are the number of d6 you roll and total, your initiative score is then added to that total, if you can subtract 10 and still have a number greater than 0 you act on that initiative as well - but a max of four times per initiative roll) - it compresses the difference between the initiative of street level thugs without the funds to afford wired reflexes and the vatjobs with top of the line move-by-wire systems... which overall means that I can both use a vatjob bad-guy without the runner team being guaranteed to be outmatched just on account of available actions, and I can use low-augment baddies and still challenge vatjob PCs without having to ramp up the numbers into the double digits.
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Joe "Potbelly" Nightwatchmann might have an Ini of 6-8 with 1 IniPass
You'd want to beat that
(and You'd rather raise the Passes than the Ini itself))
HougH!
Medicineman
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You generally want as high of an initiative as you can reasonably afford. Shadowrun's combat is very offense heavy and a good rule of thumb is that someone can take out someone of equal optimization* on their pass. Therefore you want to go first to be the guy to go first. However, there is no set value to be the guy who go first since it depends on who you're facing.
If your GM makes his own NPCs, then I can't help you too much with the expected value. In my experience with the pre-made NPCs, the "tough" ones like Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts have between 10-13 Initiative. Generally they're lower.
As a PC, the highest value you can easily** get is likely 14. That's Reaction 5, augmented to 9 via cyberware, and Intuition 5. I recommend at least 10 since that's Reaction 5, augmented to 7, and Intuition 3 which is extremely easy to reach as a cybered character.
Theoretically with magic, you can get a much higher initiative. You can increase Intuition as well as Reflexes to your augmented max via Increase Intuition/Reaction. Secondly, Increase Reflexes boosts your Initiative directly so you can cap out your attributes and then get a bit more. The end result is a value of 21 (Reaction 9 + Intuition 9 + Increase Reflexes 3). However you'll rarely see this in play since it requires 3 decent force spells sustained. But it's possible especially at higher optimization levels. In practice, most mages have only have 0-2 spells sustained and have less points maxing out their reaction and/or Intuition. Thus they either have lower Initiative than mundane combat characters or about the same.
One thing to keep in mind as well is that you can spend Edge to go first. Thus one tactic is to be lucky and beat everyone else who didn't spend Edge. However, you will have to compete with other edge spenders so you want at least a decent Initiative.
IPs are a different matter. The value of IPs varies a lot from fight to fight, but two major variables are your side's offensive power and the relative size of the two sides in the fight. The more powerful your side's offensive power, the less valuable IPs are. This is because as offensive power increases is you'll more likely just take out the other side before later IPs come up. Instant AoEs such as airburst explosives and spells will especially cut down on the value of IPs in this manner. If you're badass enough to take out 2 enemies per IP, then IPs matter less.
Relative size matters since it puts a bound on fights where the number of IPs matter. Generally the more equal in size the fight is, the more IPs matter. For example, if you outnumber the enemy 2 to 1, you'll just wipe them out on the first pass. If you're outnumbered 1 to 2, you'll either be wiped out by mass fire or their attacks are weak enough that it doesn't matter how many shots they take.
In my experience, the IP count you need for any given fight is generally 2. However, every so often I'll see a need for a third IP. Since the cost of getting the third pass is low***, I recommend grabbing Wired Reflexes 2 for most characters. If you have a good reason like being a full replacement character or otherwise super short on cash and/or essence, you'll do fine with Wired Reflexes 1. Mages can get a force 3 sustaining focus for Force 3 Increase Reflexes for similar effect though at different drawbacks.
*- This generally becomes less true on the very low end (3-4 dice with Streetline Specials low end) and against high Edge highly armored characters.
**- Easily being a human/elf/ork, not hardcapping either attribute, and not messing around with SURGE, Exceptional Attribute, or Genetic Optimization
***- Wired Reflexes 2 costs .7 essence and 11,000Y more nuyen than Wired Reflexes 1 and Reaction Enhancers 1.
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In my (very limited, mostly theoretical, probably wrong) experience, it heavily depends on the other players and GM. If combat is something that is part of the run, instead of a consequence for messing up, than 2-3 passes is advised. +1 pass DOUBLES your actions per turn, and +2 is only slightly more expensive once you have the +1. +3 is a large opportunity cost, and may be not worth it. Due to most characters being able to murder their clone in 1 or 2 passes, going first and going often is a big deal. I would actually recommend that combat focused characters focus on going first over things like dice pools and damage. Going first with a +15 will keep you alive more often than going second or third with a +18
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As a general rule I'd say you want 3 initiative passes and probably an initiative of more than 10.
That's for a "standard" 400 BP/750 karma gen character and without the campaign being very low or very high powered.
More initiative would be o.k. but it's a matter of what else you'd have to give up to get it.
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I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?
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My joke earlier aside, I tend to end with anywhere from 8 to 10 with 2 passes, and I generally do fine.
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I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?
Thats Ok .Especially the 3 IPs are Good !
HougH!
Medicineman
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[post 104 Yay!]
I'll have to agree with the general consensus.
Characters who dont have several initiative passes will find combat difficult.
augmentation or magic its your choice.
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I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?
Should be okay. 3 IPs is as good as you can expect to have. 9 is okay. You may not always go first, but you'll go often.
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Joe "Potbelly" Nightwatchmann might have an Ini of 6-8 with 1 IniPass
You'd want to beat that
(and You'd rather raise the Passes than the Ini itself))
HougH!
Medicineman
People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
So 2 for attributes. Potbelly is going to have 3 or 4, possibly up to 5 with 1 Initiative Pass.
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People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
Since when?
I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."
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People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
Once in a while I hear this rumor too
but then I open the BBB and look for the Table which says Average Attribute is 3 ;) :)
And when I mention this then there is often a long discussion 'bout this subject but it won't change the fact that 3 is still the Average for Human Attributes
(especially when you can raise the NATURAL Maximum to 8 or even 9 ;) )
with an average Dance
Medicineman
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Maybe it's just the poor physical state of Sixth World humans?
Aiming for 10 with 2 IP is solid enough for most situations but 3 IP makes you a solid combat character. Fairly cheap if you get Wired Reflexes, enough that you can get Alphaware wires. Again, this is from a "team" perspective and that you're not the only combat guy in it.
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People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
Since when?
I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."
I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.
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I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.
What? Flat threes across 8 stats is only 160 points (first point is free), and an average human has no edge.
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I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.
I don't see what connection an alternate character creation suggestion has to the core assumption of what rating is meant to represent "average," or "typical," being by definition atypical.
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Inititative and IP is highly subjective to your GMs campaigns sadly.
If you have a GM the plays a "realistic" style I:8 IP:2 is going to give you the edge in most combats, until you hit the "special forces" mark... Then you are on par with them.
If he runs "high powered" or "über science fiction" games you want to shoot for I:10+ IP:3 to maintain your edge.
Talk to your GM and find out what style he is playing and go from there.
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People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
Since when?
I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."
I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.
What? Flat threes across 8 stats is only 160 points (first point is free), and an average human has no edge.
Since conversion, basically - when every stat you had was reduced by a third. This is one of my beefs with the conversion of previous edition(s) to 4E mechanics - that sure, you're going along, you spent this whacked-out amount of karma to get a 9 in your Willpower, or a 10 in your QKN, or a 12 in your CHA, or that 15 in your STR - all depending on your metatype, of course - and then 4E comes along and says, "Okay, reduce all your stats by a third." So 9 becomes 6, 6 becomes 4, and 3 becomes 2. What used to be 'standard human' is now ... sub-standard human? Why's this?
Well, this is because the hard-cap at 6, 7, or whatever the actual racial maximum was, as modified by Edges and genework. Sure, you could get an Elf with a 10 (or even a 15!) in Agility if you have the extreme combination of Exceptional Attribute, Metagenetic Improvement, and Genetic Optimization, but those are upping the limit on your Racial Max - your particular 6 becomes a 9 instead. You can go above that hard-limit Racial Max (to 1.5 times its rating) with enhancements - but only with Enhancements. And when you boil it all down, 3 became 2.
Essentially the same thing was done with skills. Reduce your skills by lots; tough luck for you if you bought more than one thing up high, because it Now Sucks To Be You, cut everything but one down to 6.
The fluff was left alone - 'normal human' is still stated to be a 3. But if you were a normal human before and tried to transition over ... you weren't a normal human after, you were sub-par.
So yeah - I guess it boils down to that 'for me', 4E normal human is a 2, Arnold in the movies has a 5 or a 6 in STR.
By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points. You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.
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By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points. You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.
No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.
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By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points. You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.
No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.
That's still over the attribute point limit for 300 points (half of 300 is 150, leaving that as 10 points over the limit).
By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points. You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.
This is why I think 400 BP should not be base points for creating a character. 500 or 550 would be far better due to this.
Going back to the question of Initiative, as I said, I very rarely go so far as to have 3 initiative passes, and I haven't had a problem except for when opponents are blowing Edge on Initiative and Edge on attacks, followed by a critical glitch on Soak on my part (with 20+ dice to roll to do so).
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This is why I think 400 BP should not be base points for creating a character. 500 or 550 would be far better due to this.
500 points allows for characters to feel more well-rounded, certainly. In my experience with 500 point games, characters aren't substantially more powerful at their core role, but it does allow them to pick up a secondary role. I do imagine that, in a 300 point game, the attribute spending cap would be loosened, since an average person is likely to have substantially lower and fewer skills, less important contacts, and fewer assets than a shadowrunner, while their stats would probably not be enormously worse.
On the subject of initiative, it really depends heavily on your GM. If he's using the sample grunts from SR4A as a baseline, 2 IP and 9 Init should be plenty. If he's obeying the power level implied by the fluff, you probably want 3IP and 12+ init, since your average enforcer or guard will have 2 IP and 8-10 Init, either from drugs or augmentations. Team composition can also have an impact on required passes. If your team in combat light, you probably want to make sure your Init is a little higher and possibly take another pass. If your team is combat heavy, you can relax on both a little.
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Three initiative passes is good for more than offense. With an "extra" pass against enemies with less initiative passes, you can use one of them to go on full defense as an interrupt action, without sacrificing too much offense. Two initiative passes is okay, but it isn't comfortably far enough ahead of bog-standard grunts - they are only the expenditure of an Edge point or a relatively cheap dose of a combat drug away from matching you.
On Attributes: a 3 is still considered "average", but looking at the actual book stats of lower-end mooks and contacts shows that a lot of them tend to average out lower than that across their Attributes. For typical NPCs, I would give things like blue collar workers or street punks 3's in physical Attributes and 2's in mental Attributes, and do it the other way around for things like secretaries or telecommuters.
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By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points. You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.
No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.
My apologies, I wasn't keeping track, and misread your post. Yes, 160 = Normal Human. Average Joe / Jane has at least one moneymaking skill at 2-3, one that is usually considered an Active, not a Knowledge, skill. For his or her job, there's another two or three knowledges necessary just for the job; additional Active skills that a person will pick up, that can be picked up, in two hours, Rating 1. Guy who owns a pistol, shoots off a clip once a month? There's a 1. Maybe even a 2.
Glyph, this goes for you too, so - the basic Corporate Security officer, the gruntiest of grunts, is a 268 BP character - with 160 points in attributes, average across the board. So sure, depending on your table a shadowrunner is supposed to be either barely better, or a lot better, or else be able to kick his ass while hopping on foot, blindfolded, and with one arm wrenched out of joint by Bubba the Troll. No, I don't really go for #3, but considering that getting enough attribute points to make a difference is going to cost you another hundred points, and enough skills to really make a difference may cost you another forty ...
Yes, I have issue with 400 BP. Or rather, I have issue with 3 being human average in attributes.
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I get your point when it comes to "i was average in 3rd edition... so I'm still average in 4th, right?" types of conversion... I can't agree that converting a (presumably) experienced character from one edition to the next should have any bearing (direct or otherwise) on what is considered "average" by the new rule set.
If you had an experienced 3e character that still had a 3 in an attribute, you must not really have cared about that attribute nor used it all that much... so what's the problem with putting it at a 2? Especially when considering the difference in rules - 3 Quickness, 6 pistols skill 3e character? If I remember my rules right, he rolls 6 dice to shoot at something... convert him to 4e and you have a 2 Agility, 4 Pistols character, who rolls 6 dice to shoot at something.
That sounds basically the same to me.
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... who rolls 6 dice to shoot at something.
That sounds basically the same to me.
Meanwhile, Potbelly Joe the security guard goes from two dice (Firearms 2) to five - Firearms 2 and Agility 3, because hey, 3 is average. Instead of being Well-Trained Shadowrunner (Firearms 6!) against barely-trained Potbelly Joe (Firearms 2), it's now almost neck-and-neck. So no, it's not the same. You're looking at a single set of isolated numbers. I'm looking at how those numbers fit in and compare to the rest of the universe as defined.
With Karma, you could pump your No Implant No Magic plain human detective with all those contacts up to a 9 attribute in anything; that was absolute max unless you got all special on one particular attribute. Now it's six; a 1/3 reduction. All I really want - well, wish for, because we're well past the point where this sort of thing could be adjusted - is a recognition that when 'max' went down by a third, 'norm' went down by a third as well.
2 is normal human; 4 is the top end of what you're likely to find short of someone particularly driven in an area. 6 is the max most humans can go without having those aforementioned 'special gifts' and/or modifications. Implants and magic can bring you to that max * 1.5, sure, but that's costly to the common man - I mean, even a rating 1 Encephalon is three month's pay for a middle-lifestyle sort of person.
Yes, fluff and internal definitions continue to state 3 is average human, and eventually at least my brain will catch up with that. I guess I just think that it takes something away from the game and downplays the Rule of Cool, as it were.
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Meanwhile, Potbelly Joe the security guard goes from two dice (Firearms 2) to five - Firearms 2 and Agility 3, because hey, 3 is average. Instead of being Well-Trained Shadowrunner (Firearms 6!) against barely-trained Potbelly Joe (Firearms 2), it's now almost neck-and-neck. So no, it's not the same. You're looking at a single set of isolated numbers. I'm looking at how those numbers fit in and compare to the rest of the universe as defined.
You can't just look at Attribute and Skill dice. Shadowrun is a transhumanist setting; you need to remember that runners are better equipped and more heavily cybered/magicked up than the "average" person. It's a combination of these factors that allow them to outclass Potbelly Joe.
Let's look at an "average" runner versus an "average" security guard. The guard has 6 dice (let's assume his company sprung for a laser sight), versus the runner's 5 Reaction. Assuming the runner does not use his Edge (which the guard should not have), does not go on full defense (which, if since he has more initiative passes, he should), and is not running, the guard has about a 55% chance to hit on the first shot, 50% on the second. This drops to 40%/38% if the runner goes on full defense. Meanwhile, the runner fires back with his smartlinked gun, 5 Agility, 4 Firearms, and a Specialty. Joe can't go on full defense, is not running, and cannot spend Edge. This means that the runner has a 81% chance to hit on both shots (of course he has Recoil Comp), and then has another pass to wail on him.
And remember, this is versus a combat competent, not combat focused, runner.
Another thing to remember is that runners aren't really action heroes. They are skilled, hardened criminals with a noticeable amount of luck (Edge), but they aren't going to charge an army and survive; they aren't generally going to charge a squad and survive. Nobody is that skilled outside of action movies.
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So your argument is 'well, there's all the rest of the background stuff too' - which applies to both 3E and 4E, so in regards to background stuff, there's no change. The change lies in the definition of what's normal human. The change lies in the fact that top-notch shadowrunner - the guy who pumped his Karma into a 9 in his pistols, a +4 in his Ares Predator II, Smartlink-II, recoil comp, all the works on the gun plus his most excellent combat pool and Wired-I for some good reflexes, is now half as good as he used to be in comparison to Potbelly Joe. Can he still wax Potbelly in a heartbeat? Sure, Potbelly and probably one, maybe two of his friends. Used to be, though, he could wax four, maybe six of them without breaking stride, he was that good.
Anyhow. No, I understand where you're coming from. I don't think you have quite the same visceral feeling about it, that's all.