Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: wolfrider66 on <09-22-12/0919:32>
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Lets talk improved invisibility from a GMs standpoint. How can a player abuse it and what should I be looking out for as GM? I have a real Major in the US Army playing a mystic adept who has improved invisibility. He is a brilliant tactician. I will need all of my skill to make the game strategically challenging for him. He will use improved invisibility relentlessly so I need to be ready.
Also what tech can defeat the spell? It warps light but not sound, smell or touch right?
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Bingo. It also doesn't affect Ultrasound sensors, taste *shudder*, Assensing from Mages and Spirits, Matrix signals, or (at your discretion) the non-visible extremities of the EM spectrum... things like Ultra-Wideband Radar, Backscatter X-ray, T-Ray.
Mana Barriers and Wards will force him to take the spell down or set off a warning system, which will create its own set of issues.
Also, remember that devices don't get rolls, they have a Threshold. If he doesn't get more Net Hits than the Object Rating of the camera, it sees right through the Invisibility.
... ... ...
Oh, and on a meta-game level... make sure he spends the points on his Mental Attributes, and on his Knowledge Skills, to get the job done right. If his character has Logic 1, Intuition 1, and nothing remotely related to the word "Tactical" in his Knowledges, then it doesn't matter how brilliant he is, his character is still going to be a drooling putz and you should let him know he'll need to play the character accordingly.
On the flip side... if he spends the points on the Mental Attributes (Mind over Matter will come in handy here for the Logic -> Agility swap) then there's nothing wrong with him being able to dance circles around the security teams.
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Lets talk improved invisibility from a GMs standpoint. How can a player abuse it and what should I be looking out for as GM? I have a real Major in the US Army playing a mystic adept who has improved invisibility. He is a brilliant tactician. I will need all of my skill to make the game strategically challenging for him. He will use improved invisibility relentlessly so I need to be ready.
Also what tech can defeat the spell? It warps light but not sound, smell or touch right?
Radar Sensor cyberware and Ultrasound vision mode are both explicitly described as being able to overcome Invisibility spells.
No effect on motion sensors (which are ultrasound) or pressure sensors.
No effect on olfactory sensors or trained guard dogs.
Against anything with astral sight (mages using Astral Perception, spirits, etc.) it will if anything make the subject more visible.
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And it Doesn't. Warp. Light.
Never !
or else it would be a Combat Spell !
(Sorry but whenever I read this I (How Do You translate :Ich krieg nen Hals ? I'm sick & tired of it ? ) it makes me kind of Irritated
Its just an illusion Spell vs Sight (Normal,Lowlight and Infrared) thats All
A Spirits Conceal Power is much more effective
HokaHey
Medicineman
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It's a physical spell that effects cameras, not the mind of the watcher. It sure does bend light!
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Oh, No, please don't.... ??? ::)
Could somebody explain Orvich
That neither invisibility nor improved Inv. really bends the Light.
I don't have the Stomache for it
with a Headshakin' Dance
Medicineman
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Excuse me?
From SR4A, pg. 208:
Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
From SR4A, pg. 209:
Improved invisibility creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological sensors as well.
Improved invisibility bends light, so says the RAW, absolutely explicitly.
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Sigh
I know that this was in the old Unerrated Version .It caused lots of Stress (not only to me) in the newer errataed Version (the German one f.E. I don't know about englisch ones) it is omitted
and for a Good reason
with a Blind Dance
Medicineman
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(http://oi46.tinypic.com/2qxcoxe.jpg)
That's SR4A. Not seeing any errata changing that. Love to hear that "good reason" for the alleged change.
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No, that's SR4A. Shadowrun 4th, anniversary edition (with errata folded in).
Furthermore, reading the errata for SR4A found here (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/SR4A_changes.pdf), I'm not seeing any spell changes.
That really sounds like an error in translation from english to german to me, or some decision made by translators.
EDIT: And frankly, there isn't any other way for it to effect technological sensors without targeting those sensors and overcoming their resistance, and even then it'd be a big stretch to say that magic can go in and erase selectively like that. I get that it might be funky for something to completely bend light around you (as then you'd be in the dark, unable to see), but it's not an unreasonable quasi-scientific explanation for the magic.
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That really sounds like an error in translation from english to german to me, or some decision made by translators.
No its not
Pegasus gets an OK for every Erratta they produce .They don't decide a change on their own
Love to hear that "good reason" for the alleged change.
If You cast Invisibility and it would bend the Light it would render the victim Blind (No Lightwaves that reach the Eye = no Vision)
so it would effekctively be a Combat Spell
HougH!
Medicineman
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It would, assuming that magically doing so is depriving those who are under it of light waves. Illusion spells are already capable of creating images/light/mental images, why not extend that to the person under the invisibility? Furthermore, invisibility is not a perfect spell. It does not perfectly remove all traces (of visibility) from the target. Therefore, it does not perfectly bend light around them. It simply does so enough to make them harder to see.
The operative action of an inbisibility spell must be the removal of stimulus, because that's what the drain is based on. In other words, you aren't creating an overmasking image of nothing, because that (in a philosophical way) is not what the drain is based on. Nothing in that says that you aren't simultaneously as part of the effect creating images on the 'inside' of the invisibility that give insight into the world around. It just means that the primary action of the spell.
There are a lot of non-English-as-primary-language players of Shadowrun, which is fantastic. But in the english version of a primarily-english published game, the rules say (after several revisions of the game), that Invisibility bends light, see quotes above. If a third party translator makes an errata (even an approved one), that's great too, but the mainstream of the game hasn't changed.
Houseruling the spell to do something else is fine, but according to what I'm reading it bends light, and magic has been known to do sillier things. Heck, the magical movement spells (like slow) have nothing to do with force, they just deal directly with mass. To some extent, you already have to suspend disbelief to use the pseudo-science of magic.
EDIT: It could copy all light coming in one all sides and emit it out in the opposite direction. Granted, that's functionally the same thing, and it feels like it'd be a more complicated active phenomenon as opposed to bending the 'tracks' of that light, and then simply extending your own senses, or providing yourself a peep hole or something of the like. That would also explain how it's only a negative modifier instead of a perfect effect.
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Oh, No, please don't.... ??? ::)
Could somebody explain Orvich
That neither invisibility nor improved Inv. really bends the Light.
I don't have the Stomache for it
with a Headshakin' Dance
Medicineman
As I allready wrote
I'm not really interested in this discussion which already goes in the wrong direction
You're already trying to explain something that I know is wrong.
with explanations that are (was heißt an den Haaren herbeigezogen...?) ...Made up ?
And I doubt that my english is good enough to express what I Mean
So I leave the task to someone else
with a final Dance
Medicineman
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Radar Sensor cyberware and Ultrasound vision mode are both explicitly described as being able to overcome Invisibility spells.
No effect on motion sensors (which are ultrasound) or pressure sensors.
No effect on olfactory sensors or trained guard dogs.
Against anything with astral sight (mages using Astral Perception, spirits, etc.) it will if anything make the subject more visible.
That's why you also want a silence spell, and flexible signature (or what it's called to hide you on the astral) to make sure they don't see you.
And to add my two cents to the discussion on improved invisibility: if you don't want it to bend light, you can have the spell analyse the incoming light and sent out light in counterphase, therefore nullifying the light coming onto the object or person you want to make invisible. As you move around, it has to re-analyse and resent the light and therefore you can be found, especially by people trained to look for this.
Or we can just say that it's magic and it can do some amazing things and leave it at that. :)
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That's why you also want a silence spell, and flexible signature (or what it's called to hide you on the astral) to make sure they don't see you.
Flexible signature lets you forge someone else's astral signature with your spells. Masking let's you disguise yourself with a different aura. But other than the Concealment spirit power and good old fashioned Stealth skills, there isn't any way to keep them from seeing you in the astral.
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Since improved invisibility is marked down as type P (physical) it can affect non-living targets(objects?) according to this:
SR4A p203
TYPE
Spell Type is either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana spells affect
their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical
planes—affecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is
only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being.
Physical spells directly target the body; resistance relies on the target’s
Body attribute. Only mana spells can affect astral forms. Either type of
spell may be used in the physical world, but mana spells cannot affect
non-living targets.
Does being a physical spell give it combat spell qualities without actually kicking it fully into the combat realm? Being new to the game it is natural for me to quote the book which , as proven says 'warps' the light. I surely did not know it was cause for a debate. That said why can't a physical spell manhandle light around a person or object. And before you answer, remember science can't be used to explain magic.
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And before you answer, remember science can't be used to explain magic.
That's not actually true. Magic is Shadowrun is still subject to the laws of physics, but draws matter and energy from sources previously unknown to science. Shamans and other traditions see magic as something spiritual, but hermetics study it as if it were a science. MIT&T is an Institute of Technology and Thaumaturgy.
Being new to the game it is natural for me to quote the book which , as proven says 'warps' the light. I surely did not know it was cause for a debate.
Neither did I, and I've been playing this game since the previous edition. I think this issue is to specific to Medicineman, as I've never heard anyone bring it up before.
That said why can't a physical spell manhandle light around a person or object.
It can. Mana illusions create the false impression of something in the target's mind. Physical illusions create an actual false image for eyes and cameras to see.
Does being a physical spell give it combat spell qualities without actually kicking it fully into the combat realm?
Manipulation spells can be used to harm people or place them in a situation to be harmed, despite not being Combat spells. Illusions can't hurt anyone, but they can trick someone into hurting themselves, such as by projecting the image of a bridge where there is only empty air.
Still, I think that Medicineman's concern that your could use Improved Invisibility to blind people is unfounded. The spell does not blind the caster or an ally when cast on them, so clearly the spell design includes measures to allow the target to continue to see. And this is not White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension with its "whatever you can justify" magic system; spells in SR have specific formulae and are not very malleable. You could no more will your Improved Invisibility spell to not allow the target to still be able to see than you could will your Fireball spell to instead be cube-shaped.
For that matter, the nature of the spells function could be entirely different than what he's assuming. Rather than light being bent around the target, the target could be sheathed in an active camouflage effect similar to reuthenium chameleon suits, or light that would be absorbed by the target's body could instead be duplicated with the same trajectory. Both of these woudl fit with the nature of the spell as an "illusion" spell.
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I think Medicineman's concern is, that the introductory paragraphs of the Illusion Spells chapter are actually contradictory.
Illusions can certainly cause harm
by manipulating the senses so a victim walks into traffic or off a high
building, for example, but they cannot directly cause damage.
Physical illusion spells create actual images or
alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
In my opinion, altering light and sound physically is no longer just fiddling with senses (and sensors), but is the realm of Manipulation spells. If a Physical Illusion can alter light, e.g. warp, it could potentially do things like channel it, too. Now we're talking beam weapons.
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In my opinion, altering light and sound physically is no longer just fiddling with senses (and sensors), but is the realm of Manipulation spells. If a Physical Illusion can alter light, e.g. warp, it could potentially do things like channel it, too. Now we're talking beam weapons.
The difference is the intensity of the effect.
It could certainly make a laser-pointer, or duplicate a security trip-laser so that the sensor never realizes it's broken, but when you start talking about laser-gun damage... well, that's why there's a Light element for the Elemental Damage spells.
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SR3's treatment of physical illusions was harder to understand, but made more sense - rather than actually bending light around a target, it created false sensory input. With the current fluff, physical illusion spells belong more in the manipulation category of spells - but the manipulation category is bloated as it is.
My main area of confusion is what happens when a physical illusion spell gets successfully resisted. Sure, you "realize it is an illusion", but are you still unable to see what is behind the illusory wall of flames? Are you unable to see the invisible being? It kind of makes it a powerful spell, if a weak, easily resisted Force: 1 spell could still give people the modifiers for blind fire and let you sneak up on them!
Invisibility at least has a potential nerf in its description - it says it makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses, implying that the effect is not actually total invisibility. So resisting it could mean you easily spot the slight shimmer in the air or the moving sihouette which is slightly off-center from the rest of the background.
But that still leaves the effect of things like trid phantasm up in the air. In fact, why bother with trid phantasm? Just use trid entertainment. Sure, the illusion is obvious, but if all you want is to create some visual cover or hide some dangerous terraign features, it's still good.
I think in trying to simplify the rules (from the previous false sensory imput), they created a lot of potentially problematic areas.
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I think Medicineman's concern is...
I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.
Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.
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I think Medicineman's concern is...
I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.
Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.
;D
that is exactly what I meant !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway ;) )
this last Sentence is omitted in the Errattas and for a good Reason
Hough!
Medicineman
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I think Medicineman's concern is...
I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.
Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.
;D
that is exactly what I meant !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway ;) )
this last Sentence is omitted in the Errattas and for a good Reason
Hough!
Medicineman
Oh-Oh-Oh, now I see what your saying...the guy with the spell on him would be blind because light is bending away from him. Not the people around him or the frikkin cameras. Don't know why my brain got stuck on blind viewers and not a blind spell target. Oh well chalk it up to the heavy amounts of medication being crammed down my throat on a daily basis for a very bad chronic pain disorder from Lyme disease.
Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?
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Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?
The German printings of the books, unfortunately for those of us with only a modicum of ability to read/speak German.
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Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?
The German printings of the books, unfortunately for those of us with only a modicum of ability to read/speak German.
My Daughter who is joining my game took German in high school, but I don't know her level of fluency in it. In the end though there is no need I understand how I will rule it in my game so I'm good. Thanks for the reply.
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I think Medicineman's concern is...
I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.
Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.
;D
that is exactly what I meant !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway ;) )
this last Sentence is omitted in the Errattas and for a good Reason
Hough!
Medicineman
I'm going to put forward that, a mage will most likely have astral perception to see without needing photon's or sunglasses or contact's that will allow them to see in heat or any other vision they might be able to apply and I don't think the "bending the light" is a perfect camoflague since it only reduces the people's perception of you.... <.< I'm thinking more like Predator type cloaking which if you can see, then you can see slightly out of because it's probably not 100% perfect at bending all the light.
I'm sure you could let just enough light through your curving magic barrier to see. Anyways definately an interesting point brought up by you guys. :D
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Well, keep in mind that Improved Invisibility doesn't work perfectly. There's a threshold equal to the viewers' Intuition score. Which means that if you roll 4 hits on the spellcasting roll, then people with Intuition 4 or less won't notice you, but people with Intuition 5 presumably are alert enough to notice a Predator-style shimmer or something.
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Actually Narrator I'm pretty sure they get a resistance roll or something like that.... sorry not resistance but perception roll with a - equal to the force of the spell (or rather the hits you obtained on the spell)
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Improved invisibility is so easy to beat. Pretty much any alternate form of seeing or improved sight will see right past it.
Oh and as for bending light A it's magic. B to be able to see everything around you all you need is your pupils not to be effected. Say 2 1/4" black circle floating in the air. That would fit pretty well with the text. There you aren't blind and you are just about invisible. After all improved invisibility isn't 100% perfect invisibility.
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Actually Narrator I'm pretty sure they get a resistance roll or something like that.... sorry not resistance but perception roll with a - equal to the force of the spell (or rather the hits you obtained on the spell)
Yeah, my memory was playing tricks on me there. To resist physical illusions it's an Intuition (+ Counterspelling) roll with a threshold equal to the hits on the spellcasting test. If you succeed, then presumably you spot the flaws in the illusion.
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btw. funniest story we had with Imroved Invisibility:
Team was put in a cargo container on a ship for "safe" travel into high profile area. The vindictive Psionic who had to settle a score with another team member cast Imp Inv on the chemical toilet basically playing mind tricks with the poor guy.
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btw. funniest story we had with Imroved Invisibility:
Team was put in a cargo container on a ship for "safe" travel into high profile area. The vindictive Psionic who had to settle a score with another team member cast Imp Inv on the chemical toilet basically playing mind tricks with the poor guy.
I'm always kind of curious why this doesn't lead to murder in other peoples parties, especially in an enclosed space like a cargo container.
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Also dont forget the MSOS Mk1 add on for cameras from spy games. It adds +3 dice vs anything that warps light and the specific examples given are chameleon suits and improved invisibility spells.
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This is why a mage who wants stealth should look at having a spirit with the concealment power summoned, sustaining the power on the party. It's easily the very best invisibility-type ability, as it works on everything all at once (including astral perception, apparently), at very high power. Easily outstrips any spell your mage can throw.
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Doesn’t sustaining a spell eat up daily uses…. God it’s been awhile… the “favors” owed for the spirits? I’m pretty sure every F x 2 combat turns it eats up a…. aha! Services that’s what they are called. xD
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Doesn’t sustaining a spell eat up daily uses…. God it’s been awhile… the “favors” owed for the spirits? I’m pretty sure every F x 2 combat turns it eats up a…. aha! Services that’s what they are called. xD
Concealment isn't a spell. One service will suffice for concealment, so long as you word it correctly.
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Doesn’t sustaining a spell eat up daily uses…. God it’s been awhile… the “favors” owed for the spirits? I’m pretty sure every F x 2 combat turns it eats up a…. aha! Services that’s what they are called. xD
Indeed it does. However, sustaining a Spirit Power like Concealment is just one service for an indefinite period of time. Presumably since it's much easier for them.
Unbound spirits go away at sunrise and sunset, but if you have a Bound spirit sustaining, it lasts until you call it off.
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And remember, just to summon a spirit, you roll your magic + summoning skill (about 10-12 dice), versus their force. You have to resist drain (which you should have another 10-ish dice to, at least) versus the amount of successes they get on force.
This means that you can fairly easily and safely call up a Force 5-6 spirit (they're likely to only get 2-ish hits on their roll, you're likely to get 4-ish on yours) to conceal you for as long as you want, or up until the next time the sun crosses the horizon, whichever comes first. That's a -5 to -6 dice penalty for all sensory methods to detect you, period. That's enough to knock out the majority of standard sensors and anyone's senses who isn't super-focused in perception. Throw in a chameleon suit or some sort of stealth roll, and you're very very difficult to see.
Additionally, unlike any spell, Concealment also hides you by an equal amount on the astral plane as well, for no extra charge!
The only spirit types that do not get concealment as a power or optional power are fire and guidance spirits. However, guidance spirits do get the shadow cloak ability, which is a slightly less powerful concealment power. It works the same, except instead of making you invisible, it makes you shadowy. In fact, I'd personally say that fire and guidance spirits overall are on the bottom of the list of useful spirit types.
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Shadow cloak only affects the spirit (Range: Self), so it is worth even less. You get a guidance spirit mainly for its divination power.
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If you have a Possession tradition, then you can be possessed by a guidance spirit and benefit from Shadow Cloak.
And of course, a shedim that's wearing your corpse like a suit can use it. ;D
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Yeah i had a player who was using improved invisibility one time when his team was about to hit a warehouse. He kinda was hiding the fact that he was awakened. Trying to be helpful for the team one of his teamate activated his radar sensor to see inside the warehouse..the looked at the Mage and started talking. The mage (more like the player) having a big EGO when it comes to his characters started whining getting me the rules that Improved Invi defeated eletronic sensors..wich then i had to go out and pull radar and the kinda that said to defeat invisible. Followed a bit debate saying that it didnt made sense his arguing (more like whining) that his buddy couldnt see him and me have to explain that "technically" ther person did not directly see him with his eyes rather the radar painted a silouhette of him to the other player..the way submarines use to detect enemies that they dont see with there eyes.
Sigh fun fun fun
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Ah player's messin with players.... good times. xD
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Sensors like radar and ultrasound defeat invisibility because the sensor doesn't feed directly into the character's head, but instead depicts a three-dimensional, computer-generated rendering to the character. This is also why I would not allow radar or ultrasound to be used for spell targeting, either.
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Well that bits already covered by the LOS rule.
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And remember, just to summon a spirit, you roll your magic + summoning skill (about 10-12 dice), versus their force. You have to resist drain (which you should have another 10-ish dice to, at least) versus the amount of successes they get on force.
Actually you resist drain at 2 times their successes, but still not difficult unless you are messing with high force spirits or good rolls.