Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: hannibalisfun on <12-07-12/1458:52>
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I had a quick question. After you had lost some essence, when you raise your magic. Are you paying for the the cost of raising it to the adjusted value or the per-adjusted? For example, if I had 3 magic after losing 2 essence. Would I pay 20 Karma to raise my magic to 4 or would I pay 30 karma to raise my magic to 6 then still subtract the 2 magic from essence loss. Mind as well ask this too. Is my max magic still 6 or is it now 4? If you could point me to the page where this is spelled out it would be appreciated too.
thanks
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This is a point of contention. There are those who believe that you would spend the 20 karma, and there are those who believe the other. Personally, I prefer the latter, but I firmly believe there needs to be something to discourage all this "augmented adept" crap, and I think that could help.
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This is a point of contention. There are those who believe that you would spend the 20 karma, and there are those who believe the other. Personally, I prefer the latter, but I firmly believe there needs to be something to discourage all this "augmented adept" crap, and I think that could help.
I have never seen any rule support for the latter one.
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You raise your Magic to 5. You have 2 points of 'ware installed. Your Magic is now 3 for all intents and purposes. You spend the 20 Karma to raise it to 4. I'm not remotely convinced there is any contention, aside from people who want to houserule certain things to discourage augmented Awakened*.
*: which isn't to my personal taste, but is perfectly fine at others' tables.
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You raise your Magic to 5. You have 2 points of 'ware installed. Your Magic is now 3 for all intents and purposes. You spend the 20 Karma to raise it to 4. I'm not remotely convinced there is any contention, aside from people who want to houserule certain things to discourage augmented Awakened*.
*: which isn't to my personal taste, but is perfectly fine at others' tables.
It could be fine if it were done just as part of a character idea, but the ones here who try to talk everyone into putting bio ware into Adepts (or even Hermetic Mages), don't do it for that. They only do it because they view characters as math problems.
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Losing ESS decreases your MAG score, it does not augment it, therefore the prevailing interpretation is that you're paying on the new score which is in fact your actual score. Though if I were to GM, I'd probably house-rule it the other way (and I play an Augmented Adept).
And don't listen A4BG, he's just puckered because his "pure" Adepts can't hang with the big boys. ;)
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You raise your Magic to 5. You have 2 points of 'ware installed. Your Magic is now 3 for all intents and purposes. You spend the 20 Karma to raise it to 4. I'm not remotely convinced there is any contention, aside from people who want to houserule certain things to discourage augmented Awakened*.
*: which isn't to my personal taste, but is perfectly fine at others' tables.
It could be fine if it were done just as part of a character idea, but the ones here who try to talk everyone into putting bio ware into Adepts (or even Hermetic Mages), don't do it for that. They only do it because they view characters as math problems.
So, how exactly does that justify lying about the rules when someone asks about the game mechanics?
You don't like Augmented Adepts, and want to make anyone who plays one suffer. Fine, if it's your table you can do what you want... though you're being a hypocrite considering all your posturing about Player Freedom... but don't pretend your House-Ruled nerf is anytging other than what it is... a House-Rule.
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All right, one warning has gone out already and JAD is getting close to another ban. Let's take a step back and focus on the discussion and not the persons.
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This is apparently a sticky issue, because the books don't explicitly say "you definitely pay karma as if you'd never lost any magic to essence". To the best of my knowledge, there is no absolutely certain "we'll point you to this page which explains it completely, applies this way in all situations to all people". There are a lot of arguments both ways, but I say it all winds down to this: it depends on your table.
You pay more karma than a "pure, no essence-reducing character" anyway, so I don't see it as being a necessity to say "costs must be what magic would be without essence reduction" - you pay more karma, and it seems easier in terms of book-keeping to me to look at your character sheet (with all of its eraser marks and scribbles) and say "a ha! This is what my magic is now". Pay to improve that to whatever the next one is without taking additional time to calculate what magic (or resonance, if you're considering Technomancers) would've been outside essence loss.
Let's say you're an adept with Magic 3. You get up to 1 Essence worth of 'ware. Your magic then is reduced to 2. You would have to pay 15 karma (5 times the new rating/level, which in this case is 3). If you want Magic 4, then you pay an additional 20 karma (5 times the new rating, now 4) and suck it up because you were the one who decided to get that 1 Essence worth of gear - of course, you can get a lot of value out of 1 or 2 essence of 'ware, so if you enjoy the numbers aspect of the game then enjoy the juggling. If not, then get just what you need and keep things simple so you can stick with what you enjoy, whether that be sneaking or punching corpsec in the face.
You're paying for your essence and your magic/resonance in either case, so I don't see it as game-breaking to go with "this is my magic now, not taking time to recalculate for essence". If the table you're at disagrees, discuss and see if everybody can come to a happy medium. If the majority feel one way, then for the sake of cohesion it's usually easier to say "okay folks, we'll go with it this way to cause the least amount of unhappiness".
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Sorry, FastJack.
*ahem*
To move back on-topic, the rules specify that losing Essence reduces both your Magic Attribute and its Natural Maximum. Since the loss remains even if the Essence is repaired that means the reduction, as emsquared mentioned, isn't a modifier... which would be written as X(Y), as with Background Counts... but an actual change of the value of the Attribute, changing the value of X.
Speaking as a person who treats reading game rules as trying to turn a graphic artist's concept art into an engineering document, buying based on the cost of the new, reduced, Essence is the only reading rhat supports all available information.
Tables are always free to HR as they like, but the RAW is quite clear on the subject when the relevant information is parsed in its entirety.
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OP:
The only thing in the rules is to pay for the new score at whatever the new rating is. The magic is lost and gone. The rules don't care that your magic was 4 and reduced to 3... they only care that your current score is 3, and you'll pay (4x5)==20 karma to raise 3->4.
That said, magic loss can result in loss of initiations and metamagics if you're not careful.
And the rules are quite explicit... the karma cost to raise any attribute is (New Rating)x5.
It's the same bit for Technomancers... if their resonance is reduced permanently by essence loss or the like. Any complex forms they know also degrade to their resonance value and also need to be rebought. For adepts... any adept powers they have will also degrade down to a maximum of the reduced magic score and need to be bought back up.
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Raising magic is already pretty darn pejorative, I generally would argue down any houserule or rules reading that increases the cost of more magic points, especially for adepts. In the rules, I seem to remember that losing essence specifically causes you to lose magic points entirely, not just the use of them. Therefore, I'd logic out that you aren't really at 5 anymore at all, because you've LOST that 5th point, bringing you to 4. In your example, down to 3.
Anyways, while another point of powers does unlock some interesting powers for the adept, it comes at quite an exorbitant price, especially considering the limited metamagics of use to the adept. In this example, to get back up to 4, you need to spend 20 karma (a fair chunk) for that 4th point. However, to attain the next point, you need to spend 38 karma! That's a quite big chunk of karma, to pick up a general benefit of what.. 4 dice to something, as a general rule (a lot of the non-utility increasing abilities seem to cost ~.25-.5 and provide +1 dice in applicable situations)?
And that's generally the only benefit more magic points provide, few of the (non mystic) adept powers use the magic pool for anything. This is unlike technomancers/resonance and mages/magic entirely, as both of those receive some (quite potent) benefits that scale directly to their attribute, like... threading or spellcasting itself.
I get that raising attributes is intended to be somewhat difficult (though it can be done quite easily with some relatively cheap ware), as it improves a potentially wide range of abilities, but making the adept's core progression (along their core mechanic, power points) follow an attribute that otherwise does them little (Mystic Adept) to no good at such a high cost is one of the few things that really feels off-kilter to me in the Shadowrun system. What that does is ensure that they get it softcapped or capped at chargen and never improve it over gameplay (or do so once), due to the high cost.
According to the book, you'll get at least 2 karma per adventure (Which run more than a single session of gameplay, most likely), probably closer to 4-5 if you're a good player or are clever. Many people play any given character but once a week, which means that's a month of good solid progress for any single magic point increase if you're lucky, assuming (big one here) that you complete an entire adventure every week, and that you get 5 karma each and every week. If you aren't a good RP'er or player, and you're making close to the probable minimum (survival, and either you completed most objectives or you failed to do that because it was extra challenging) of 2-3. Now you're looking at months. Just seems.. not worth bothering with.
Anyways, rant about power points being based only on magic and how it encourages powerful starting specialist characters that don't grow aside, I'd go with the lower costing option. You've actually lost those points, and act entirely as if that IS your score. The other number is just there so that someone looking at your loss of essence can explain why you still have a positive magic score, but not a massive notoriety score without resorting to "You're cheating".
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Orvich there are usefull meta magics for adepts and there is an optional rule that you can get another power point instead of meta magics for initiation as a mystic/adept.
Which means the first additional power point costs.... 13 karma, 10 with a 20% reduction.
While Adept Centering is one of my all time favorite meta magics.
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I agree that you improve your Magic Attribute from the score that it has been reduced to - there is no support whatsoever for the other interpretation (although it can certainly be house ruled that way).
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that when you lose the point of Magic, you also have the maximum of your Magic Attribute reduced by one. In other words, if you go from Magic: 4 to Magic: 3, 20 karma will raise it back up to 4 again. But if you go from Magic: 6 to Magic: 5, you will need to initiate at least once, to improve your maximum Magic rating by one, before you can raise your Magic back up to 6.
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I would also work with the fact that you calculate from your current attribute, as noted on the character sheet, no matter how it got the value it currently is at. In fact this is a very expensive option, as you have to re-buy your magic score to account for the 'ware you put in. But that's the way to rules work. But I wouldn't let them pay the higher price (say 25 karma to get magic from 3 to 4 because it was 4 before), as magical characters are enough of a karma sink already, in contrast to street sams and hackers, which are money sinks, but that's another discussion.
PS: if I recall correctly there is a way to get your essence back up after your 'ware is removed (some sort of gene therapy or other), but your magic stays permanently at the lower value unless you spent the karma to buy it back up.
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PS: if I recall correctly there is a way to get your essence back up after your 'ware is removed (some sort of gene therapy or other), but your magic stays permanently at the lower value unless you spent the karma to buy it back up.
Augmentation, pages 88-89
Revitalization
Revitalization is a recent breakthrough that repairs Essence loss derived from invasive implantation. Universal Omnitech is trying to keep the mechanism a secret, though geneticists have speculated that the effect is achieved by performing some kind of “genetic feng shui.” The theory is that scientists realign qi from astral shadows by genetically remodeling DNA to repair damage to the aura or balance to the body’s systems, and thus the patient regains Essence.
In game terms, revitalization regenerates the Essence “hole” left by the removal of an implant from the body. Revitalization is slow and Essence is restored by recurring gene therapy sessions at a rate of 0.1 Essence per month. Though Essence points lost to implantation, Energy Drain, and addiction may be restored through gene therapy, Magic/Resonance points lost are never returned and reductions to the maximum Magic/Resonance attribute remain in effect.
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Thanks for this discussion as it is relevant to a decision I'm currently facing with my character. My sniper/mage recently came into enough nuyen to afford some very nice Bioware (Muscle Toner 4 & Cerebral Booster 3, both Betaware). I'm still up in the air due to the 30 karma cost to raise my magic back up to 6 after I have it installed (I'm already a grade 1 Initiate). Sustaining Foci are a lot cheaper.
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Thanks for this discussion as it is relevant to a decision I'm currently facing with my character. My sniper/mage recently came into enough nuyen to afford some very nice Bioware (Muscle Toner 4 & Cerebral Booster 3, both Betaware). I'm still up in the air due to the 30 karma cost to raise my magic back up to 6 after I have it installed (I'm already a grade 1 Initiate). Sustaining Foci are a lot cheaper.
It's not. If you are Awakened, Just Say No to Ware.
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Sniper/Mage is an interesting combo that I honestly haven't seen before. Losing ~1 point of Magic for +4 Agi and +3 Logic (I assume you use a Logic-based Drain tradition like Hermetic or Islamic) is definitely a worthwhile trade-off especially if you wind up using those Agi-linked skills a lot, cast at high Force, and have invented in Log-linked skills.
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Sniper/Mage is an interesting combo that I honestly haven't seen before. Losing ~1 point of Magic for +4 Agi and +3 Logic (I assume you use a Logic-based Drain tradition like Hermetic or Islamic) is definitely a worthwhile trade-off especially if you wind up using those Agi-linked skills a lot, cast at high Force, and have invented in Log-linked skills.
Yeah, my mage is manipulation focused, so the sniper rifle is simply to make sure he's not a one-trick pony. I've been told that there's nothing a sniper rifle can do that a manabolt can't, which is probably true, but I enjoy what I do. Missions that require sniper mean I pump my combat effectiveness with Increase Agility and Increased Reflexes in 2 health sustaining foci. For magic runs, I use those same foci to instead Increase Willpower and Logic (you're right, Hermetic), pop some psyche and eat the -1 dice pool modifier for keep Increased Reflexes up. This bioware would mean even less to worry about in regards to background count, wards, etc.
It's not. If you are Awakened, Just Say No to Ware.
I know what you're saying. Honestly, there's a decent chance that Benandanti XXV won't even let me get the augments.
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Thanks for this discussion as it is relevant to a decision I'm currently facing with my character. My sniper/mage recently came into enough nuyen to afford some very nice Bioware (Muscle Toner 4 & Cerebral Booster 3, both Betaware). I'm still up in the air due to the 30 karma cost to raise my magic back up to 6 after I have it installed (I'm already a grade 1 Initiate). Sustaining Foci are a lot cheaper.
Personally, I have never seen a problem with awakened having a little cyber. In older editions however, bioware was a pain in the butt. You could geasa cyber, but not bioware. Now you can just raise your magic attribute to your cap with karma? Yes please. I've got a technomancer and I have added a little 'pad' in with submersions, I'm going to grab a sleep regulator and a datajack. Both are in character choices, thinks he wants to get and has always been putting off. Given combat spells have a range of....the horizon..I wouldn't be in such a hurry to plug in muscle toner.
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And there's something people often forget in the "quest for perfect math". It is supposed to be a slippery slope. Awakened person gets an implant for the "easy path" to power but finds himself weaker rather than stronger in his powers, so he gets more implants and finds himself even weaker, so forth and so on. Eventually they end up with no Talent left. Those who do it for the math though refuse to mess with that, they just Cheese their way through creation of a proof rather than a character.
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Those who do it for the math though refuse to mess with that, they just Cheese their way through creation of a proof rather than a character.
Sorry, was this a direct reply to me about my technomancer?
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And there's something people often forget in the "quest for perfect math". It is supposed to be a slippery slope. Awakened person gets an implant for the "easy path" to power but finds himself weaker rather than stronger in his powers, so he gets more implants and finds himself even weaker, so forth and so on. Eventually they end up with no Talent left. Those who do it for the math though refuse to mess with that, they just Cheese their way through creation of a proof rather than a character.
Or he gets the specific edge he wants that Magic won't or hadn't given him for whatever reason and is willing to accept one weakening (lower Magic at least in the short term) for a strength (much greater ability to shoot a gun). Getting a couple implants doesn't and shouldn't automatically force you to burn out your Talent.
Oh and much like recent political soundbites, your "bluhhh maths!!!" line is really stale. As if that method of building a character is inherently BadWrongFun/cheese/munchkinism/ROLLplay/etc. I realize it's your strong opinion that Awakened shouldn't get ware, but you're the only person I've ever seen who calls everyone who even considers it a moron who's Playing the Game Wrong.
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Or he gets the specific edge he wants that Magic won't or hadn't given him for whatever reason and is willing to accept one weakening (lower Magic at least in the short term) for a strength (much greater ability to shoot a gun). Getting a couple implants doesn't and shouldn't automatically force you to burn out your Talent.
Oh and much like recent political soundbites, your "bluhhh maths!!!" line is really stale. As if that method of building a character is inherently BadWrongFun/cheese/munchkinism/ROLLplay/etc. I realize it's your strong opinion that Awakened shouldn't get ware, but you're the only person I've ever seen who calls everyone who even considers it a moron who's Playing the Game Wrong.
I don't call the people stupid, I call the act stupid. There is a rather large difference except in the eyes of people who have no other way to try and discredit other than to attack the voice.
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Do we need ANOTHER thread locked? We get it, you disagree. Take any arguments you have to Private Messages. Much as we might joke about it, we don't get our jollies from watching people saying "nuh-uh!/yea-huh!" back and forth.
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Once you have a head full of gray hair, does it turn back to its natural color?
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Yeah, my mage is manipulation focused, so the sniper rifle is simply to make sure he's not a one-trick pony. I've been told that there's nothing a sniper rifle can do that a manabolt can't, which is probably true, but I enjoy what I do.
It's not, sniper rifle allows much easier take down of drones and other high object resistance targets then a manabolt(well powerbolt, as manabolt cant affect non living targets at all).
Really if your not a focused combat mage(i mean a one that specializes on combat spells) a gun in general might be a better option then picking up a bunch of combat spells(stunbolt is still worth knowing for most mages, as a back-up if nothing else).
And know i think i "must" go and see what kind of a sniper/mage build i can come up with(not gonna lie, most likely will include atleast a points worth of ware), might end up going with assault cannons instead of sniper as i like the heavy weapons skill more in general.
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Yeah, my mage is manipulation focused, so the sniper rifle is simply to make sure he's not a one-trick pony. I've been told that there's nothing a sniper rifle can do that a manabolt can't, which is probably true, but I enjoy what I do.
It's not, sniper rifle allows much easier take down of drones and other high object resistance targets then a manabolt(well powerbolt, as manabolt cant affect non living targets at all).
Really if your not a focused combat mage(i mean a one that specializes on combat spells) a gun in general might be a better option then picking up a bunch of combat spells(stunbolt is still worth knowing for most mages, as a back-up if nothing else).
And know i think i "must" go and see what kind of a sniper/mage build i can come up with(not gonna lie, most likely will include atleast a points worth of ware), might end up going with assault cannons instead of sniper as i like the heavy weapons skill more in general.
You know, every time I think of Heavy Weapons sniping, I start hearing a certain AC/DC song in my head. ;D
The Thunderstruck is insane. Just freakin' insane. Especially for someone who can cast Silence on themselves to nullify the sound of it firing.
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Ninja'd by Nath. I seem to recall hearing during a 3rd edition game that there's also either an optional rule or common houserule that once 'ware is removed, the essence can slowly heal over time. That's probably not here in 4th edition, though.
Sounds like you've both got good combinations of character advancement and in-character reasoning behind a very simple aspect of upgrading - give up a little to get more of what you're aiming for. I never really understand why some people think Awakened/Resonant should never touch 'ware. I guess whatever floats your boat.
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Ninja'd by Nath. I seem to recall hearing during a 3rd edition game that there's also either an optional rule or common houserule that once 'ware is removed, the essence can slowly heal over time. That's probably not here in 4th edition, though.
Well there is the revitalization from argumentation (p.88), but it's pricey and doesn't restore maximum magic/resonance along with the essense
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You know, every time I think of Heavy Weapons sniping, I start hearing a certain AC/DC song in my head. ;D
The Thunderstruck is insane. Just freakin' insane. Especially for someone who can cast Silence on themselves to nullify the sound of it firing.
Hehe, reminds me of skippy's list...
35. Not allowed to sing “High Speed Dirt” by Megadeth during airborne operations. (“See the earth below/Soon to make a crater/Blue sky, black death, I’m off to meet my maker”)
But anyhow... the problem is you still have a supersonic slug which is quite loud on it's own as it passes by (this sonic boom is called ballistic crack). Unless the gun is very far away.... suppression/silencing doesn't do much to stop the location. But hey it's a game... and people go for the movie grade suprressors having never actually used one.
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But hey it's a game... and people go for the movie grade suprressors having never actually used one.
Silence spell is something quite differed from a suppressor .
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Yeah, my mage is manipulation focused, so the sniper rifle is simply to make sure he's not a one-trick pony. I've been told that there's nothing a sniper rifle can do that a manabolt can't, which is probably true, but I enjoy what I do.
It's not, sniper rifle allows much easier take down of drones and other high object resistance targets then a manabolt(well powerbolt, as manabolt cant affect non living targets at all).
Really if your not a focused combat mage(i mean a one that specializes on combat spells) a gun in general might be a better option then picking up a bunch of combat spells(stunbolt is still worth knowing for most mages, as a back-up if nothing else).
And know i think i "must" go and see what kind of a sniper/mage build i can come up with(not gonna lie, most likely will include atleast a points worth of ware), might end up going with assault cannons instead of sniper as i like the heavy weapons skill more in general.
Yeah, the original concept was a heavy weapon/manipulation mage. However, the prospect of going to jobs with a rifle in a briefcase was too good to pass up (Ranger Arms SM-4). I do have Stunball, too, and use it to great effect, but, you're right, my usefulness against drones is limited.
Essence cost for Betaware Muscle Toner 4 is .56, and cost for Betaware Cerebral Booster 3 is .42, leaving me at 5.02 essence and dropping my magic to 5. I'm only 13 Karma from being able to raise that Magic back to 6. For 30 total Karma, I'm essentially raising my Agility 4 points to the augmented max of 9 and Logic 3 points to 8. Yes, I'd have to initiate up to grade 2 in order to even consider increasing my Magic to 7, but I will do that anyway.
Alternatively, I could just save up to 35 Karma (so, 18 more), and increase my Magic to 7. That would give me +1 dice on my Magic-based pools, but I'd still need to wander around with sustaining foci active to keep my attributes up to my preferred level.
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But hey it's a game... and people go for the movie grade suprressors having never actually used one.
Silence spell is something quite differed from a suppressor .
Stealth and Silence spells still both only magically silence the shooter. It does not remove the problem that the bullet makes it's own very loud noise when it passes outside the magic. And as magic it can be resisted and everything within heard normally. But like I said... the rule of cool applies and movie magic suppressors are the norm anyhow (-4 or 6 for a suppressed shot already).
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Yeah, the original concept was a heavy weapon/manipulation mage. However, the prospect of going to jobs with a rifle in a briefcase was too good to pass up (Ranger Arms SM-4).
You can actually add that same functionality to any weapon with the Easy Breakdown weapon mod(Arsenal page 150), but that can get quite expensive.
Ofcource whether or not you fit a disassembled assault cannon into any kind briefcase depend on your GM 8)
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Yeah, the original concept was a heavy weapon/manipulation mage. However, the prospect of going to jobs with a rifle in a briefcase was too good to pass up (Ranger Arms SM-4).
You can actually add that same functionality to any weapon with the Easy Breakdown weapon mod(Arsenal page 150), but that can get quite expensive.
Ofcource whether or not you fit a disassembled assault cannon into any kind briefcase depend on your GM 8)
Yeah, if he thought it would fit, he'd already be doing it with his own PC's gauss rifle. Instead, he just has a Renraku Manservant carry a modified golf bag full of his weapons. "Jeeves, hand me the driver."
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Yeah, the original concept was a heavy weapon/manipulation mage. However, the prospect of going to jobs with a rifle in a briefcase was too good to pass up (Ranger Arms SM-4).
You can actually add that same functionality to any weapon with the Easy Breakdown weapon mod(Arsenal page 150), but that can get quite expensive.
Ofcource whether or not you fit a disassembled assault cannon into any kind briefcase depend on your GM 8)
Yeah, if he thought it would fit, he'd already be doing it with his own PC's gauss rifle. Instead, he just has a Renraku Manservant carry a modified golf bag full of his weapons. "Jeeves, hand me the driver."
Driver? As in Mass Driver?
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Yeah, the original concept was a heavy weapon/manipulation mage. However, the prospect of going to jobs with a rifle in a briefcase was too good to pass up (Ranger Arms SM-4).
You can actually add that same functionality to any weapon with the Easy Breakdown weapon mod(Arsenal page 150), but that can get quite expensive.
Ofcource whether or not you fit a disassembled assault cannon into any kind briefcase depend on your GM 8)
Yeah, if he thought it would fit, he'd already be doing it with his own PC's gauss rifle. Instead, he just has a Renraku Manservant carry a modified golf bag full of his weapons. "Jeeves, hand me the driver."
Driver? As in Mass Driver?
No, he just calls his gauss rifle his "driver."