Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Shadowjack on <12-10-12/0512:28>
-
One aspect of Shadowrun that often gets a bad rep is melee. I realize this thread won't prove melee and ranged are balanced, but I think it can shed some light on which weapon to choose for your character.
One major aspect of game balancing in Shadowrun is item cost. When I first came back to Shadowrun I thought like this, "No Daichi has the best stats, why bother with other weapons?" Even 3000 nuyen seems really inexpensive. However, a knife is almost free and you can use that 3000 nuyen on something else which could be more useful and practical than the No Daichi.
I work on my own rpg and a big part of my game is the choice of many weapons which all have different strengths and weaknesses, so it's really up to the player to choose which one is best for their character. Shadowrun doesn't really work like that. You can use any weapon you like, but some simply have better stats than others. It's often a question of stealth versus raw power.
So in a way, it looks like the melee weapons were poorly designed. But when you start to realize the true value in every nuyen you spend, you'll really begin to see why someone would take an inferior weapon in favor of saving nuyen. In the last campaign I did my character bought a No Daichi during the game and it was really awesome. But after a while I had saved up almost enough money to buy a very powerful and expensive piece of cyberware. If I hadn't bought the No Daichi, I could have got the cyberware right then, but instead, I had to do another run(risking death) before I could afford the cyberware.
This line of thought is really helpful when reading Street Legends. As you can see, many of the characters use melee weapons which are not the most powerful of their class. When I first read that I though, "Hmm, how odd that someone this powerful is using a weaker melee weapon, even though he/she has a decent melee dice pool". But even Street Legends need to choose how to spend their money, and it's not as simple as buying the most powerful weapons all the time.
At the end of the day, just use whichever weapon you think you'll have the most fun with. If you always take the same weapons, you probably won't have as much fun as someone who changes things up. And if you put some thought into it, you can often find justification for using the inferior weapons.
-
What if they choose by their personal preferences, not arbitrary stats? I guess that's because if you look into it, the characters can't see stats. We can't see stats in the real world either.
Also, take into account the fact, that game rules are simplified enough to allow fast play. They can't take into account many different facts, like that a sword is pretty worthless against an axe - you can't really parry an overhead strike. The same with a spear thrust, which is also very difficult to counter... Etc. The rules are there to make combat fun. Saying "weapon x is the best stat-wise, so everyone should use it" is borderlining on munchkinism.
-
Yes, that's my point :) I think people should use the weapons they will have fun with, not always take the most powerful one. I've been playing rpgs for decades and I always use the weapons I feel like using. I just felt in Shadowrun there are clear winners and most people seem to just automatically take them because they're better. Many people will probably never use a tonfa, but if they did, it could be a lot more fun and it adds more color to the character too. That said, it's still okay if people really like to use a particular weapon(for whatever reason).
-
Whatever weapon you use (whether it is melee or ranged) as your primary weapon is, in part, a reflection of your character. Whether it is the Predator or the Sakura Fubuki, the AK-97 or the Alpha, the katana or the vibroblade sword it is a reflection of the character. Use your character's gear to help turn a collection of stats into a breathing person.
-
Well said, Mirikon. That's how I like to play too. Even with the No Daichi I bought, it was because my character had an extensive history with swords. I'll probably try a bunch of different melee weapons in Shadowrun over time.
-
Yes, that's my point :) I think people should use the weapons they will have fun with, not always take the most powerful one. I've been playing rpgs for decades and I always use the weapons I feel like using. I just felt in Shadowrun there are clear winners and most people seem to just automatically take them because they're better. Many people will probably never use a tonfa, but if they did, it could be a lot more fun and it adds more color to the character too. That said, it's still okay if people really like to use a particular weapon(for whatever reason).
Agreed.
Me, I tend to turn my nose up at "martial arts" weapons in general since, in the real world, they end up second-best do something designed from the ground up as a weapon. After all, they pretty much all started out as tools that were pressed into service because someone took the real weapons away. This is, mind you, even if the book's stats say the martial arts impliment should be better than the true weapon.
I'll also never touch a Katana... or any of it's variants like the Nodaichi.
Japanese sword designs are a bunch of over-hyped pieces of crap created in a culture culture that had very limited supplies of poor-quality iron, which meant that even the best armor had massive gaps in the metallic coverage, and the typical line soldier didn't have any armor worth speaking of at all. Oh, yes, and the steel they produced was so crap-tastic they had to work it forever with a hammer to get out the impurities... the vaunted "folding" everyone seems to get a chubby over.
Europeans, on the other hand, had plentiful supplies of steel and were able to develop armor that had much tinier gaps, and proliferate some form of metallic armor to even the grunts on the front lines. The result was weapons designed to go through armor, not just around it, and cause massive blunt-force trauma even if the wearer was in a full suit of articulated plate. Yes, even the traditional one-handed Arming Sword used with a shield.
Oh, and lets not forget the differences in armor penetration between an axe and any type of sword. Long story short... a big, two-handed axe designed for man-slaying pretty much wins by a landslide.
--- --- ---
So... yeah... sorry for the rant, guys. Essentially, I'm trying to say that I feel very strongly that the only reason the stats are the way they are is because way too many people have a hard-on for Japanese culture and Catalyst is pandering to them. If they're going to lump dozens of European, Middle-Eastern and Asian swords... with often drastically different handling characteristics... under the heading "sword," then there's no reason for the Japanese types to be special little snowflakes.
Whatever weapon you use (whether it is melee or ranged) as your primary weapon is, in part, a reflection of your character. Whether it is the Predator or the Sakura Fubuki, the AK-97 or the Alpha, the katana or the vibroblade sword it is a reflection of the character. Use your character's gear to help turn a collection of stats into a breathing person.
Very true. So very, very true.
-
JustADude, I'd like to make one point about your rant that you may have forgotten. The Japanese may not have had plentiful steel for armor, but they did use paper armor that proved to be as effective as steel armor. The paper armor went away the same time as steel armor did, because firearms had progressed to the point that the armor was effectively useless.
As for comparisons between European and Japanese swords, European swords tended to be wider and heavier, while Japanese swords (and Chinese swords, to a certain extent) were thinner and lighter. When using a European sword, the emphasis is on power, while with Japanese swords the emphasis is on speed and accuracy. To put it in terms of firearms, a European sword would be like a shotgun, while a Japanese sword would be like a pistol.
-
I enjoyed the rant. One thing to keep in mind though is that the katanas and no daichis in Shadowrun are made from modern materials. I purchased quite a few swords irl and one of them was a "real" katana. Known as a full tang katana for having a single piece of steel which includes the blade and runs all the way down through the handle. I tested the swords out on a very large box from a 70" tv I had bought at the time and the katana seemed to have tremendous hitting power over the other swords. Mind you, the other swords were more for decoration but some of them did have heavy blades and they were all capable of killing someone with ease.
One thing I can say about high quality katanas is when you hold one, you can really feel the killing power. As far as bypassing armor goes, I really can't speak on that but I will say that like an axe, a very heavy sword has a much better chance of tearing through armor than a lighter sword. I also had a cheap Chinese butterfly sword and it was by far the quickest of my collection. I don't think it would penetrate armor very well but it would be very difficult to avoid as the blade is extremely fast. Also, keep in mind that Asians tend to be smaller so it was more practical for them to use smaller weaponry historically.(even though I believe humans in general were much smaller back then overall)
-
As far as bypassing armor goes (...)
They cut through chain mail. I've seen it with my own eyes... There goes the "inferior materials" hypothesis.
The thing is, difference between Asian and European weapon designs is cultural and economic. Europeans got their way from the ancient Greece and Rome, mixed with "barbarian" influences. The whole idea of knighthood as a base for warfare is following the Roman equites, hence the sword&lance domination. In Asian culture weapon choices are more flexible, and their idea of warfare differs greatly, as it is based on a wholly different set of rules and beliefs.
-
What if they choose by their personal preferences, not arbitrary stats? I guess that's because if you look into it, the characters can't see stats. We can't see stats in the real world either.
Also, take into account the fact, that game rules are simplified enough to allow fast play. They can't take into account many different facts, like that a sword is pretty worthless against an axe - you can't really parry an overhead strike. The same with a spear thrust, which is also very difficult to counter... Etc. The rules are there to make combat fun. Saying "weapon x is the best stat-wise, so everyone should use it" is borderlining on munchkinism.
A little correction there; You *can* parry an overhead axe strike with a sword. The point is parrying exactly, not blocking. You don't have to stop it, you just move the trajectory a bit. And about countering the spear strikes, it's not really that much more difficult if you train the right techniques. Of course if you just train for fighting against swords and clubs...
And a little bit for the katana rant also. Consider this: they had poorer quality material so they had to make better techniques of smithing. Give the better materials for the better technique and what would the result obviously be?
-
o.k i'v got 2 replicas 1 katana and 1 rapier the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand) and after 17 years still got the edge the rapier well that made of toledo steel and after 10 years lost it and need to be resharpened so i do believe that the tech' was important. btw if folding is so over rated way do modern blade smith use it today. well that my 2 ny
-
the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand)
Wasn't that when they were pumping out lesser quality blades?
-
the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand)
Wasn't that when they were pumping out lesser quality blades?
Yes, lesser quality blades, and the katana still kept its edge for the better part of a decade longer than the rapier.
-
I'll also never touch a Katana... or any of it's variants like the Nodaichi.
Japanese sword designs are a bunch of over-hyped pieces of crap created in a culture culture that had very limited supplies of poor-quality iron, which meant that even the best armor had massive gaps in the metallic coverage, and the typical line soldier didn't have any armor worth speaking of at all. Oh, yes, and the steel they produced was so crap-tastic they had to work it forever with a hammer to get out the impurities... the vaunted "folding" everyone seems to get a chubby over.
C'mon, this little rant belies either a poor understanding of logistics, martial combat and physics or an over-extended desire to be "counter", JAD (and I doubt it's any of the former). You're making fun of them for making a tool for a specific application with limited resources. That's pretty invalid. And while I admittedly get nerd-gasms over slicing pumpkins with katanas (who doesn't?), and probably romanticize samurai and japanese culture in general, the fact is they are very well designed and high quality weapons, especially considering - as you admit - they were working with crap iron, and there is a reason beyond cult status for their popularity. The fact that they came from a society lacking resources or that it's a weapon not designed to combat full-plate armor doesn't make them "over-hyped", if anything the former makes them all the more worthy of praise.
Just like everyone, they designed their weapons based on the materials they had and the purpose of the tool. And from the core, lamination and hardening to curve of the blade and the angle of incidence of the blade with the crossguard/handle, they're made to maximize trauma caused to flesh with minimal motion and force (they're the hollow point of swords - so of course you don't shoot hollow points at someone wearing body armor, but it's still a great tool for it's application), i.e. they use physics not mass - just like all Asian martial arts, designed for efficient motions that can be transitioned in the same motion into another strike or defense and not tire the user, or for use in combination with hand-to-hand attacks, as well as being capable of piercing with a stabbing motion as well as any spear.
You mock the folding technique and quality of the steel, but both resulted in a weapon that was flexible and could maintain a sharp edge, even through the chaos of combat, edge to edge contact, or use by an unskilled combatant. The only instance where a two-handed axe is better than a sword, or any other melee weapon, is if you have the sheer mass and training to use it, it's not a weapon of skill or speed, so your assertion that it wins by a landslide is null and void unless stated under heavily conditioned circumstances (or unless "Deadliest Warrior" says it is, of course) - just as a similar statement about a katana or mace would be. They are weapons designed for specific purposes, each which they excel at beyond the others applied similarly.
Which all relates directly to this thread. Concealability, Reach, or Style - what are your needs and what gets your rocks off?
-
I like them and I'll use them on characters, but even I have to admit that katana and other Japanese weapons are over-used on RPG characters.
-
That's only because I can't get a lightsaber for my combat mage.
-
Well in a game where one of the core roles is Street Samurai it's a little silly not to expect Japanese weapons to get a specific shout out.
-
That's only because I can't get a lightsaber for my combat mage.
Make a Force 6 Force Blade spell, plus a Sustaining Focus made of old camera parts. :P
-
What if they choose by their personal preferences, not arbitrary stats? I guess that's because if you look into it, the characters can't see stats. We can't see stats in the real world either.
Also, take into account the fact, that game rules are simplified enough to allow fast play. They can't take into account many different facts, like that a sword is pretty worthless against an axe - you can't really parry an overhead strike. The same with a spear thrust, which is also very difficult to counter... Etc. The rules are there to make combat fun. Saying "weapon x is the best stat-wise, so everyone should use it" is borderlining on munchkinism.
Unless you're using something in the sort of fencing category you can parry a spear thrust. It should be similar to a Q-staff thrust and I've parried thrusts from one of them with a tonfa / sturdy stick. "cuts" on the other hand are more challenging.
You might be able to get away with a reinforced hanging parry on a big old axe if you have a sturdy sword. So you're not opposing all the force, you're guiding it off to one side and away from you.
Brute force can often be beaten by speed, having an unstoppable two-handed waraxe isn't going to save you if someone with a foil manages to pull off a particularly big and quick lunge from out of distance. Although I wouldn't fancy giving it a go.
-
Essentially, I'm trying to say that I feel very strongly that the only reason the stats are the way they are is because way too many people have a hard-on for Japanese culture and Catalyst is pandering to them.
Aside from WellsIDidIt's reply (below, for ease of locating), I'll add my own two cents:
Shadowrun always had a strong Japanese influence. Hell, the world's benchmark currency is the nuyen. The New Yen. It makes sense that things Japanese will highlighted in the game.
Well in a game where one of the core roles is Street Samurai it's a little silly not to expect Japanese weapons to get a specific shout out.
-
I agree with Peter. The fact is most of the megacorps originally were from Japan. Japanese corps spread Japanese culture wherever they went. In other parts of the world (Europe, Middle East, and Russia, primarily) the Japanacorps might not have much influence, and haven't spread Japanese culture as much, but in the Americas, the only places that don't have at least some Japanacorp influence would be Tir Tairngir, Aztlan, and Amazonia. The simple fact is that Japanese corps have historically (and continue to this day) had a majority in the Corporate Court, which is the body that pretty much controls how people do business. Because corporate wageslaves often adopt the corporate culture to help their careers, this means that Japanese culture spreads further. Hence the prevalence of katanas where a vibroblade sword is clearly superior, mechanically.
-
Cheaper than a katana, doesn't need to be turned on, and in the Core Rulebook is the monofilament sword, which is the equivalent of the katana. (STR/2+3) with AP -1 and a Reach of 1. While I agree that there is a very strong influence of the Japanese on the rest of the world, (emphasis on the currency and sammies, as stated) I don't think it's overly consuming. The fact that they're in the majority while Shadowrunners are on the fringe helps put a line of separation between the two which can be blurred or capitalized upon as a player desires. In a similar manner, you could choose to style your character after another cultural archetype or dominant cultural force such as Amer-Indian, another frequently referred to core element.
As for pandering, I think it's been a pretty consistent theme. For the game to suddenly change some of its core elements and terminology (the Japana-corps and the nuyen) would probably be received with disdain, and frankly a bit of culture shock.
-
Mechanically the same, but ta monofilament sword is more akin to a broadsword than a katana. Different fighting style, for people who care about such things.
-
It was more to address the mechanical concerns. As for fighting styles, those can be done a number of ways, fluffed usually by the player. Martial arts can help define things too. Personally, I enjoy having a multitude of blades to use, wielded in a dervish-esque fashion.
-
My sprawl ganger is the main combat character in our Wednesday game.
Weapons of choice? Baseball bat, sledge hammer and grenades.
Batter uuuuup!
-
My sprawl ganger is the main combat character in our Wednesday game.
Weapons of choice? Baseball bat, sledge hammer and grenades.
Batter uuuuup!
Look at that! Bashed your skull in with my bat, and it's completely dry- no hair, no skull, NOTHING!
BONK!
-
Mechanically the same, but ta monofilament sword is more akin to a broadsword than a katana. Different fighting style, for people who care about such things.
Depends on how exactly you interpret it - when I saw 'monofilament sword' my first image was the monofilament wire sword from Larry Niven's Ringworld Engineers, which was wielded something more like an epee if I'm not mistaken. I just think that would be more likely than a wire-edged broadsword, due to cheaper construction.
I also want to point out that there's a lot of room to fudge weaponry in Shadowrun, because there are some weapons that could easily exist given Shadowrun's technology (a forearm-mounted pile driver). Or there's polearms, which were the premier weapon across the entire world from the dawn of the stone age when people started poking each other with pointed sticks until their first real competitor in the bow, which wasn't supplanted by another weapon until gunpowder firearms like the arquebus. Yet for some reason Shadowrun doesn't have spears (except as an 'exotic weapon' in S4A 315), naginatas or glaives (no, they're not exactly the same), halberds, cudgels, folding warhammers, or a variety of other things that telescoping or folding blades would still allow street sams to use with fewer concealability problems than an assault-rifle-toting gunbunny.
Some weapons also strike a lot faster than might be implied by one Complex action (nunchaku, sansetsukon, and a bo or quarterstaff wielded by a trained user), but that might be digressing.
-
The broadsword description is based on the description given in SR4A:
Monofilament Sword: This well-balanced broadsword features superfine monofilament wire attached to its edges.
I think there's a lot of room for determining the design aesthetic of any weapon you get though. Even more so if you personalize it.
While 'Pole Arm' is an exotic weapon in SR4A, Spear is a Blade in AR.
Spear: The spear is one of the oldest weapons known to mankind, used for hunting, war, and sports over the last 400,000 years. Nowadays, spears are used by some tribes living in Africa, South America, and Australia, and as a traditional hunting or ritual weapon by some Native Americans, but are rarely seen in modern sprawls. Traditional spears consist of a wooden pole with a spearhead made of stone, bone, metal, or sharpened and fi re-hardened wood, while modern spears are usually constructed of composite plastics or metal alloys and sometimes even have telescopic poles. A spear can also be thrown (using the Throwing Weapons skill, the range table of shuriken, and doing the same damage as in melee combat).
Cudgels and clubs are pretty similar, in my opinion. As for weapons that strike faster,
Melee combat in Shadowrun assumes that some maneuvering occurs as part of the fight. Rather than a single blow, each attack is a series of moves and counter-moves executed by those involved. Melee combat is not “I punch you and then I wait for your turn to punch me;” rather, it represents several seconds of feints, jabs, punches, counters, attacks, defends, kicks, and bites by both combatants at the same time.
Something that irks me, though, is the splitting of dice pools for using two weapons. Makes some sense to a point, since you don't want two pistols to be doing as much damage as a machine gun, but still.
-
The broadsword description is based on the description given in SR4A:
Monofilament Sword: This well-balanced broadsword features superfine monofilament wire attached to its edges.
I think there's a lot of room for determining the design aesthetic of any weapon you get though. Even more so if you personalize it.
+1 to this. As often as I see posts regarding people wanting weapon/vehicle creation, I think many times a simple description of your weapon can suffice. How many light pistols are there that are statistically identical? Yet, just because an official book has come out with a new name for one, often without a supporting image, we accept that they are different. If I want my street sam to use some specific weapon, then I'll buy the closest thing and describe it in such a way as to make it clear. Also, and perhaps I've been fortunate here, gm's have always been open to me creating items that I've wanted, so long as they had approval of the item/process.
I think this is where the SR community shines, and how the devs have been fairly open. We want something, so we make it. And it certainly seems, off this board and community, that they listen when we talk.
This is digressing some from the original point made, but there you go. Anyway, I like melee weps in SR, and even though some people say they get no love or are under powered/broken, I guess in my experience combat has been secondary. Even though in one of my games the sprawl ganger uses a baseball bat to "negotiate". We do it in such a way that it doesn't matter what you hit em with, the best part is finding out how you GET to the hitting. So, flavor of the campaign and character overrules stats, any day, in my book. Does that make sense, at all?
-
With 13 dice and a 9P base for a sledge hammer, in addition to set-up and finishing move you can really lay a smackdown with melee.
Witness the crazy fight on top of a moving car between a muscle augmented human with a sledge hammer and a troll with a monosword.
-
With 13 dice and a 9P base for a sledge hammer, in addition to set-up and finishing move you can really lay a smackdown with melee.
Witness the crazy fight on top of a moving car between a muscle augmented human with a sledge hammer and a troll with a monosword.
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
-
I've always been a fan of sledgehammers, they are so fun and you can do so much damage with one.
-
With 13 dice and a 9P base for a sledge hammer, in addition to set-up and finishing move you can really lay a smackdown with melee.
Witness the crazy fight on top of a moving car between a muscle augmented human with a sledge hammer and a troll with a monosword.
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
I never claim to be making perfect math characters. So kudos on your dice pool being bigger than mine.
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/272/322/262.jpg)
-
I've always been a fan of sledgehammers, they are so fun and you can do so much damage with one.
Yeah I kind of took the clubs skill set just for the visuals. Better with baseball bats than sledgehammers, but then it was a troll.
I play Shadowrun only because as of yet, Cyberpunk 2020 hasn't made a comeback, style over substance for me.
-
With 13 dice and a 9P base for a sledge hammer, in addition to set-up and finishing move you can really lay a smackdown with melee.
Witness the crazy fight on top of a moving car between a muscle augmented human with a sledge hammer and a troll with a monosword.
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
I never claim to be making perfect math characters. So kudos on your dice pool being bigger than mine.
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/272/322/262.jpg)
Trust me it wasn't intentional. It just friggin turned out like that. I actually feel dirty with that level skill on Blades. Probably helped that I was just seeing what was possible building a real adept, and well, looks like that pretty well proves that adepts don't need implants.
-
They don't need them, it just rocks to put them in. Its like a fine wine with a good steak. One is just fine alone, but both makes it worth while.
-
They don't need them, it just rocks to put them in. Its like a fine wine with a good steak. One is just fine alone, but both makes it worth while.
Where I see it as cheap malt liquor with a good steak.
-
They don't need them, it just rocks to put them in. Its like a fine wine with a good steak. One is just fine alone, but both makes it worth while.
Where I see it as cheap malt liquor with a good steak.
Good on you.
-
They don't need them, it just rocks to put them in. Its like a fine wine with a good steak. One is just fine alone, but both makes it worth while.
Where I see it as cheap malt liquor with a good steak.
3 pages. Nicely done guys.
-
They don't need them, it just rocks to put them in. Its like a fine wine with a good steak. One is just fine alone, but both makes it worth while.
Where I see it as cheap malt liquor with a good steak.
3 pages. Nicely done guys.
Hey, I just posted my opinion on hammers/clubs and mentioned a fight and dice pools involved in a game. I didn't come here to start a "my dice pool is bigger than yours" cock swing. If AFBG wants to come roaring out of the basement like an unwashed otaku each time I post a thread, its his business.
-
Alls I did was make a comment on that I'd done something similar, which also happens to prove that the only "downside" of melee really is the complex action thing.
-
I really don't think he was trying to "one up" you, Kat. I think he was just mentioning a character relevant to the discussion :)
-
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
Trust me it wasn't intentional. It just friggin turned out like that. I actually feel dirty with that level skill on Blades. Probably helped that I was just seeing what was possible building a real adept, and well, looks like that pretty well proves that adepts don't need implants.
Could you please post the character in the Creation and Critique forum?
-
Another great thing about katana, (most curved blades really) they're way easier to wield in one hand for their size, compared to a strait blade. Don't get me wrong, strait blades win in terms of sheer hacking power, same with an axe, but I'd take a couple katana over a combat axe any day. I'd also say that a skilled katana or saber user facing off against an equally skilled enemy with a strait sword or axe of similar mass has a distinct advantage. Speed tends to win in battles with lethal weapons. I do agree about the over hype though. Toledo produced way more high quality weapons than japan did in a given amount of time (thank you Moors). I'm not sure on the credibility of this, but I've also heard that Toledo supplied Japan with some of its superior smithing material.
-
Well, part of the reputation of the katana isn't hype. They tested blades on prisoners, and rated them on how many bodies the blade went through in a single slice. There were two and three body blades made. On Deadliest Warrior, I saw a guy with a katana cut through two and a half pig carcasses in one cut. The speed of the katana combined with its sharp edge make it a formidable weapon, and is easier to find gaps in armor with it. Now against someone wearing full plate armor, the katana user would be at a disadvantage, yes. But they had other weapons besides the katana.
I would say that the hype around the katana isn't really based on the katana at all, though, but on the people that wielded them. The samurai with their bushido code are something of a legend that has grown with time. The ninja of myth are also legendary, as well. These things combine to make a mythos around the katana, which is pretty powerful, even to someone who isn't part of Japanese culture. The only thing we Americans have that comes close would be gunslingers out in the Wild West, with weapons like the Colt Peacemaker or the Winchester rifle. The guns that won the West aren't particularly impressive compared to modern weapons, but they still resonate strongly with people, because of their legendary past.
-
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
Trust me it wasn't intentional. It just friggin turned out like that. I actually feel dirty with that level skill on Blades. Probably helped that I was just seeing what was possible building a real adept, and well, looks like that pretty well proves that adepts don't need implants.
Could you please post the character in the Creation and Critique forum?
Nope. Why? Because I do not wish to.
-
Well, part of the reputation of the katana isn't hype. They tested blades on prisoners, and rated them on how many bodies the blade went through in a single slice. There were two and three body blades made. On Deadliest Warrior, I saw a guy with a katana cut through two and a half pig carcasses in one cut. The speed of the katana combined with its sharp edge make it a formidable weapon, and is easier to find gaps in armor with it. Now against someone wearing full plate armor, the katana user would be at a disadvantage, yes. But they had other weapons besides the katana.
I would say that the hype around the katana isn't really based on the katana at all, though, but on the people that wielded them. The samurai with their bushido code are something of a legend that has grown with time. The ninja of myth are also legendary, as well. These things combine to make a mythos around the katana, which is pretty powerful, even to someone who isn't part of Japanese culture. The only thing we Americans have that comes close would be gunslingers out in the Wild West, with weapons like the Colt Peacemaker or the Winchester rifle. The guns that won the West aren't particularly impressive compared to modern weapons, but they still resonate strongly with people, because of their legendary past.
Although just as a reality check, the Samurai never won a war against anyone who wasn't also a Samurai.
-
Well, part of the reputation of the katana isn't hype. They tested blades on prisoners, and rated them on how many bodies the blade went through in a single slice. There were two and three body blades made. On Deadliest Warrior, I saw a guy with a katana cut through two and a half pig carcasses in one cut. The speed of the katana combined with its sharp edge make it a formidable weapon, and is easier to find gaps in armor with it. Now against someone wearing full plate armor, the katana user would be at a disadvantage, yes. But they had other weapons besides the katana.
I would say that the hype around the katana isn't really based on the katana at all, though, but on the people that wielded them. The samurai with their bushido code are something of a legend that has grown with time. The ninja of myth are also legendary, as well. These things combine to make a mythos around the katana, which is pretty powerful, even to someone who isn't part of Japanese culture. The only thing we Americans have that comes close would be gunslingers out in the Wild West, with weapons like the Colt Peacemaker or the Winchester rifle. The guns that won the West aren't particularly impressive compared to modern weapons, but they still resonate strongly with people, because of their legendary past.
Although just as a reality check, the Samurai never won a war against anyone who wasn't also a Samurai.
This is partially because they were fairly isolationist then.
-
This is partially because they were fairly isolationist then.
Sure, but it makes it really hard to evaluate the actual combat effectiveness of a Samurai army against anyone who is, well, not a Samurai. The Medieval Europeans and Arabs on the other hand fought several different groups.
I've always suspected that a large part of the Samurai Hype is simply nostalgia. The Samurai were still doing the Swords and Arrows thing when everybody else was already on to gunpowder. It just looks cooler.
-
This is partially because they were fairly isolationist then.
Sure, but it makes it really hard to evaluate the actual combat effectiveness of a Samurai army against anyone who is, well, not a Samurai. The Medieval Europeans and Arabs on the other hand fought several different groups.
I've always suspected that a large part of the Samurai Hype is simply nostalgia. The Samurai were still doing the Swords and Arrows thing when everybody else was already on to gunpowder. It just looks cooler.
Pshhhhhh, forget the samurai, it's all about those badass ronin. Ain't no-one's dog. Musashi! Musashi!
Also, while I can't vouch for the quality of samurai in a full scale war, their training made them top notch warriors for small skirmishes, duels, all that populace suppressing jazz.
-
In college I was part of a field of study called "Japanology" for two years. I thus believe I can talk with a small matter of authority on the subject.
As others have already stated, the isolationist nature of the nation has prevented a lot of inter-country warfare from occuring. It's worth noting that during the majority of Japan's hsitory this isolation was not self-imposed, but rather a result of the difficulties in traversing the seas with the primitive crafts then available.
For a long time the Japanese mostly had a culture of warriors, not soldiers. What this means is that battles resembled more closely a collection of loosely connected 1 on 1 fights and small skirmishes rather than the formation fighting we see in ancient and medieval times in Europe, Greece, etc. This evolution made sense when seen against the cultural backdrop of the nation; however, when the Mongolians once invaded Japan they brought with them an actual professional army, and the Japanese were quite powerless against it. The Mongolians didn't play by their rules and just "dishonourably" cut them down as efficiently as possible. Thus the Japanese troops were routed, but the Mongolians--who couldn't believe the ease of their victory and thus expected a trap--returned to their ships. That night a huge storm swept across the coasts of japan, a storm of catastrophical proportions, and the majority of the Mongolian fleet sank, leaving the men to drown. The remaining forces hastily departed back to the mainland. (this is known as the kamikaze; the God Wind).
Oddly enough, the second Mongolian invasion was stopped by a storm, too.
Anyway, this historical account shows that the Japanese of that time were not all that fiercesome in open warefare. However, it is the honourable warrior culture that many admire, the idea that war is more than a few square formations meeting to cut each other down, but rather battles between skilled warriors to prove who is the better man. This appeals to a lot of people.
It has to be said, though, that after the Sengoku period (shown in Shogun 2: total war, partially) Japan had apparently moved away from that quite a bit, with the peasantry (ashigaru troops) forming into professional armies and the like. Indeed, when Hideyoshi later invaded Korea they blitzed to the Korean capital in no time at all, and not even the intervention of the Chinese could halt their armies. Instead, their conquest was foiled by the difficulty of maintaining supply lines and guerilla tactics.
Even then, though, a direct comparison is very hard. It seems strange to us that the Japanese used almost no shields, but they just had a completely different warfare style, relying on mobility more than the protection a heavy shield could offer, because when you're facing circling archery warriors on horse back you're far better off with mobility than with being able to block arrows from one side, apparently.
So yeah, the Japanese warrior culture was very different from our own, and that's why some people feel drawn to ti. We can debate its merits all day, but in the end, their fighting style fight their needs perfectly, as the western style did ours. Letting the two battle each other is a pointless (but fun) mental excercise.
-
Thank you very much for that excellent summary, Unahim.
The thread has actually helped bring my central point of dissatisfaction into focus for me.
The katana is, despite my earlier bout of bitterness, a very good weapon for what it was meant to do... that is to say, cutting through squishy flesh when a skilled user has found gaps in his opponent's armor. It is not, however, significantly better at doing so than the many other types of swords designed for the same task.
I've handled many types of blades, including the katana, and it just does not perform in a way that warrants a point of Armor Penetration if other similar weapons... not to mention the beefier ones meant to go through armor, rather than around it... don't.
--- --- ---
And, as an aside... people, even here, seem to be under the impression that European swords were sharpened crowbars, when they're not. That false reputation came from much later days, when people who were used to nothing bigger than a fencing foil tried to pick up an arming sword and use it the same way as a rapier, which they're not designed for. European swords had just as much work put into the blade geometry, metallurgy, and forging process as any katana produced by a similarly skilled Japanese weapon-smith.
Shadowjack's comparison of taking a bunch of European-style SLOs (Sword-Like Objects) designed to hang on a wall and testing them against a "combat grade" katana doesn't prove anything except a good sword out-performs a crap sword. Totally apples-and-oranges. You might as well compare a set of Japanese "Samurai Armor" against a suit of articulated plate made out of cheap tin and then say Japanese armor out-performs European full-plate.
-
As statted up in SR, it's got the -1 AP in part because there's only three stats for weapons -- range, damage, and armor penetration -- to differentiate from one to the other. And, in part, because the katana is traditionally described in SR as a two-handed weapon (so, I'm sure, they decided to give it something) to rank it up above the generic sword.
I've long been an advocate of doing away with the specific "katana" designation, though, and just having a stat for a sword, a two-handed sword, and mono-versions of each. There's no need for a specific name for what should be only cosmetic differences between the various styles of swords, in my opinion. If someone wants to describe their weapon as a european-style bastard sword, they can, a katana, they can, an oversized machete, a chinese dadao...whatever floats their boat.
*shrugs* But that's just me.
-
I didn't post that as proof, I hope you realize that. I just felt that the particular katana I had was incredibly damaging.
We can speculate all we like on the what weapons were better historically but I doubt anyone will be able to provide any real proof. Everyone is going to claim they had superior weaponry, it's a huge pride issue. I don't believe much of anything until I see it for myself. I figure that historic records are incredibly biased in most cases. Each type of sword was designed for a different kind of warrior. Factors such as size, quickness, strength, skill etc should all be considered when designing a sword.
Personally, I don't think it's that significant that the standard sword has lower stats than a katana. The sword has the advantage of being cheaper, which could indicate inferior craftsmanship or materials. The katana costs much more but gets armor penetration and lower availability to compensate. If you like European style swords but dislike the stats, just buy a katana and rename it to your liking.
Since none of us participated in any real battles during the era which those weapons were used, we'll never truly have all the details. It can be fun to speculate but don't be fooled into thinking you have all the facts just because you read a book, watched a tv show or even trained with the weapons yourself. We can never replicate exactly what it was like back then and there are surely factors that we're unaware of that went into the design process of each weapon.
Lastly, Shadowrun isn't real life. If the katana is better in the game, that's just how it is. I don't really see the problem :P I think it adds color to the game and like I said, feel free to buy one and rename it.
-
Well said on the sword design factors shadowjack.
I would rather give my character a claymore than a no-dachi. I ain't no daisy eating samurai wannabe! IRL, there are so many cool weapons and they all have their disadvantages and advantages over other weapons in different scenario's. It's like rock paper scissors, or as some weapons just own in more situations, pokemon. Heh, I kinda want to see a pokemonesque game where instead of a trainer you're a warrior, and instead of pokemon they're, well, weapons. More on track though, sure some weapons may have better stats in the RAW, but it's up to the GM's to decide when a particular weapon has an advantage over another (non-obligatory of course). Sure a combat axe would smash through a katana in most scenario's, but in a dark confining jungle undergrowth, or some other cramped quarters, the lesser statted kukri (or any weapon with no reach) would stomp them. In my rules anyway.
-
Made an adept last night with 22 dice to swing katana and did 8P (could've gotten 9, but thought that was just ridiculous).
Trust me it wasn't intentional. It just friggin turned out like that. I actually feel dirty with that level skill on Blades. Probably helped that I was just seeing what was possible building a real adept, and well, looks like that pretty well proves that adepts don't need implants.
Could you please post the character in the Creation and Critique forum?
Nope. Why? Because I do not wish to.
I'm curious to see how much other than swing a sword it can do.
I've tossed together an adept which has 22 dice doing 8P with a Weapon Focus Katana but it's taken 250 out of 400 bp and 5.25 power points and the only stats that are above starting are str & ag, the only skill is blades and the only gear is the katana power focus.
That leaves the character struggling to do much else
(Mind you it's the first physical adept I've made in 4th ed)
making an augmented physical adept with 22 dice for katana took 231 karma with 3.5 power points left (again It could almost certainly be done cheaper)
-
ˆ Don't.
Just don't.
Go derail another thread into yet another "Pure Adept" vs. "Augmented Adept" balance/contest or pick one of the many still floating around there.
Apart from a slip or two, this thread has actually been fun to read so far.
-
Just my 2¥, but any weapon in the game is just an example. There are as many other cosmetically different makes and models of each gun in the rule book as your game group has imagination. Same stats, same rules, same cost, but it's made by a small Italian boutique arms shop and you got it for your 16th birthday.
"Katana," in this case, is a Brand or Model of two-handed sword like "Ares Predator." If you want a different gun with the same stats and same cost, you buy a "Predator" and say it's a Venetian "Il Gatto Sette." If you want a different sword with the same stats and same cost, you buy a "Katana" and say it's a "Claymore."
-
I'm not sure on the credibility of this, but I've also heard that Toledo supplied Japan with some of its superior smithing material.
I would be suspicious of this given that my looking into folded steel seems to indicate that both places came up with the idea independently, but I'd always be open to a new source stating otherwise.
I would still question whether a katana or curved blade is better than a double-edged straight sword. They have different design and function - I wish I could post a couple of the PDFs I've acquired about armed martial arts forms, but most of the straightedged weapons have shorter swings which would indicate less time between attacks. It's also easier to block or parry with the flat of a straight sword than it is to turn aside a similar blow with a katana or saber (in general).
Also: you can get a claymore in Arsenal p14. But I still see what you mean, and "blades" is vague enough anyway that your point remains. The maneuvers of thrusting with a dirk and throwing out a flurry of slashes with a cavalry saber are as different as night and day in the real world, but for ease of use Shadowrun simplifies it all to one skill (though with options to specialize).
-
Depends on the weapon, Mithlas, as well as how you use it. The best comparison to a katana amongst European swords would be the bastard sword. Similar length blade, made to be used with one or two hands. Between the two, the katana is lighter and faster, and it is easier to use one-handed than a bastard sword because of that. The European longsword and shortsword were designed to be used with a shield, and so the actual use of the weapon differs greatly from how a katana was used. As for a curved blade being slower, it was the Japanese who created the art of iaijutsu, where one would draw and strike a foe with the same action, at incredible speed. While it is possible you could do that with a longsword, the difference in weight and shape makes it difficult.
Regarding blocking a blade with the flat of a longsword, from what I've read the style the katana was used with was less about blocking and more about parrying and deflecting. It is true that a curved blade isn't as good at physically blocking a blow, but you can deflect it and parry it quite well. And because the blade kept such an edge, even a quick strike from inside an enemy's guard after a parried attack could be fatal.
Honestly, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. They were two different types of weapons, made for different jobs under different conditions, utilizing different fighting styles.
-
I've only wielded one katana and I don't think it would be ideal for one handing. Keep in mind that only one side of the blade has a sharp edge. It would be very impractical. That's one of the big advantages to European style, double edged swords. Not only can you swing back and forth one handed but you can also use a shield effectively.
-
Speaking from experience on one handing katana, if you're familiar with the blade and you have supple wrists it doesn't matter. At the end of one stroke with the katana (or whatever curved blade) you adjust your grip slightly and nudge the blade in the direction of the new swing. This uses the balance of the blade to turn it in the direction you want. It does help to have the right footwork down as well. It's about as fast as a double edged sword like this, a little less free, but can strike very hard.
-
I must have had an extra heavy katana then. Because I'm decently strong and I can't imagine not 2 handing that thing :)
-
I'm curious to see how much other than swing a sword it can do.
I've tossed together an adept which has 22 dice doing 8P with a Weapon Focus Katana but it's taken 250 out of 400 bp and 5.25 power points and the only stats that are above starting are str & ag, the only skill is blades and the only gear is the katana power focus.
That leaves the character struggling to do much else
(Mind you it's the first physical adept I've made in 4th ed)
making an augmented physical adept with 22 dice for katana took 231 karma with 3.5 power points left (again It could almost certainly be done cheaper)
Fine, here it is. (Note: It uses 'Sword' instead of 'Katana')
== Info ==
Street Name: Steelshine
Name: Blake Storm
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Elf Male Age 35
Height 6'3"
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 7
Lift/Carry: 10 (75 kg/50 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 0
== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 6
REA: 3 (5)
STR: 5
CHA: 3
INT: 4
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 1
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 7 (9)
IP: 1 (3)
Astral Initiative: 8
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 7
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 11
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Blades : 6 [Swords] Pool: 15 (17)
Climbing : 3 Pool: 8
Disguise : 4 Pool: 8
Etiquette : 3 [Street] Pool: 6 (8)
Flight : 3 Pool: 8
Gymnastics : 3 Pool: 9
Hardware : 4 [Maglocks] Pool: 6 (8)
Infiltration : 4 Pool: 12
Palming : 4 Pool: 10
Perception : 3 Pool: 10
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 [Wheeled] Pool: 6 (8)
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 4
Pistols : 2 [Semi-Automatics] Pool: 8 (10)
Running : 3 Pool: 8
Shadowing : 4 Pool: 8
Swimming : 3 Pool: 8
== Knowledge Skills ==
Area Knowledge: Seattle : 3 Pool: 7
Bars and Clubs : 3 Pool: 7
English : N Pool: 0
Security Systems : 4 Pool: 6
Sperethiel : 4 Pool: 8
== Contacts ==
Fixer (6, 3)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Bad Luck
Low Pain Tolerance
Low-Light Vision
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
SINner (Standard) (Blake Storm)
The Warrior's Way
== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 4
Enhanced Perception Rating: 3
Improved Ability (Combat) (Blades) Rating: 3
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Infiltration) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2
Sustenance
== Lifestyles ==
Middle 4 months
== Armor ==
Bike Racing Armor 5/8
+Chemical Protection 6
+Gel Packs
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
+YNT SoftWeave
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
+Nonconductivity 6
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble)2/4
== Weapons ==
Browning Ultra-Power
+Chameleon Coating
+Laser Sight
Pool: 9 (11) DV: 5P AP: -1 RC: 0
Sword
+Chameleon Coating
+Personalized Grip, Melee Rating 4
+Weapon Focus
Pool: 20 (22) DV: 8P AP: - RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 5 DV: 3S AP: - RC: 0
== Martial Arts ==
Arnis De Mano
++1 DV on Blades attacks
++1 DV on Blades attacks
== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 3, 3, 3)
+Iris Orb
+AR Gloves
+Subvocal Microphone
+Analyze Rating 6 [Copy Protection 6, Optimization 3, Registration]
+Encrypt Rating 6 [Copy Protection 6, Optimization 3, Registration]
== Gear ==
Autopicker Rating 6
Chisel
Contact Lenses Rating 3
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
Earbuds Rating 2
+Audio Enhancement Rating 3
+Select Sound Filter Rating 3
Fake SIN (Brian Ceran) Rating 4
+Fake License (Focus Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Weapon Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Bodyguard License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Drivers License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Vehicle Registration) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Stephen Franks) Rating 4
+Fake License (Focus Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Weapon Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Bodyguard License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Drivers License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Vehicle Registration) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Jonathan Drake) Rating 4
+Fake License (Focus Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Weapon Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Bodyguard License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Drivers License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Vehicle Registration) Rating 4
Maglock Passkey Rating 4
Maglock Sequencer Rating 4
Medkit Rating 6
Spare Clip (Browning Ultra-Power) x5
+Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Heavy Pistols)
Tool Kit (Hardware)
Weapon Focus (Bonded Foci) (Sword) Rating 4
Wire Clippers
== Vehicles ==
BMW Blitzen 2050 (Combat Bike)
+Morphing License Plate
+Obsolescent
+Spoof Chip
+Vehicle Sensor
Back to the topic, I think the problem of hatred of katana and various other Japanese culture items in games stems from a massive overuse of them. Personally, I don't understand it because I've seen things far more overused, but...
-
I must have had an extra heavy katana then. Because I'm decently strong and I can't imagine not 2 handing that thing :)
Well, the ones I've had and held were all light enough that I could easily use one in one hand, except one that had an especially heavy hilt. I can't speak about the sword you used in particular, of course, but that's held true for most any katana I've seen. Also, if you have some kind of training, it gets easier.
-
Yeah, it had a very heavy hilt.
-
I'm not sure on the credibility of this, but I've also heard that Toledo supplied Japan with some of its superior smithing material.
I would be suspicious of this given that my looking into folded steel seems to indicate that both places came up with the idea independently, but I'd always be open to a new source stating otherwise.
I would still question whether a katana or curved blade is better than a double-edged straight sword. They have different design and function - I wish I could post a couple of the PDFs I've acquired about armed martial arts forms, but most of the straightedged weapons have shorter swings which would indicate less time between attacks. It's also easier to block or parry with the flat of a straight sword than it is to turn aside a similar blow with a katana or saber (in general).
Also: you can get a claymore in Arsenal p14. But I still see what you mean, and "blades" is vague enough anyway that your point remains. The maneuvers of thrusting with a dirk and throwing out a flurry of slashes with a cavalry saber are as different as night and day in the real world, but for ease of use Shadowrun simplifies it all to one skill (though with options to specialize).
I think the benefit of a curved blade is that it allows you to slice into your opponant drawing the blade across them and come free more reliably in one motion. A straight edged blade, as I understand it, you first cut into the opponant and then draw back in a separate motion to slice deeper. Slower and possibly more likely to get stuck.
Generally, it's difficult to compare weapons like this because each one is a product of the environment it was designed for. If the Japanese had all been wearing different armour, the Katana would be quite different.
For me the Katana has appeal because of the style of use and those who used them. I've taken a brief class in wielding katanas (sadly the order of swords hadn't come through so we had to use rapiers) and it was all about stealing ground, economy of movement and gaining the advantage to win - I know that's the case with many systems but this seemed more to the nth degree.
-
Comparing a longsword and a katana is like arguing between strength and speed. The longsword is heavier, but doesn't hold its edge as well. The katana is quicker, but doesn't have the same kinetic energy of a heavier weapon, meaning it doesn't have the same brute force as, say, a claymore. In Europe, where battles were fought upon horseback or using a sword and shield and plate armor, a heavier blade had the best chance of doing damage, unless you were nimble enough to pierce the gaps in the joints. However, that extra weight of sword, shield, and armor made one slower. The European style would be to focus on defense through heavier armor, then.
In contrast, the Japanese style focuses on speed and mobility. Even their heavy armor was quite light compared to plate armor. Because of this, they focused on a style that involved quick strikes, and an instant turn from parry to attack. A lighter blade, with an edge that was very sharp, is able to do more in such situations than a heavier blade.
-
Comparing a longsword and a katana is like arguing between strength and speed. The longsword is heavier, but doesn't hold its edge as well. The katana is quicker, but doesn't have the same kinetic energy of a heavier weapon, meaning it doesn't have the same brute force as, say, a claymore. In Europe, where battles were fought upon horseback or using a sword and shield and plate armor, a heavier blade had the best chance of doing damage, unless you were nimble enough to pierce the gaps in the joints. However, that extra weight of sword, shield, and armor made one slower. The European style would be to focus on defense through heavier armor, then.
In contrast, the Japanese style focuses on speed and mobility. Even their heavy armor was quite light compared to plate armor. Because of this, they focused on a style that involved quick strikes, and an instant turn from parry to attack. A lighter blade, with an edge that was very sharp, is able to do more in such situations than a heavier blade.
Keep in mind that in Shadowrun modern alloys and monowire edges can largely eliminate the differences in weight, sharpness and edge-retention between styles of blades. Armor is also wildly different than it was during the era i which the weapons evolved, and it is likely that fighting styles have evolved as well.
Curved blades are the best because they draw faster than straight blades, and allow for quick feints and vicious draw-cuts against lightly armored and unarmored opponents.
Straight blades are the best because they allow for a harder chopping cut that can penetrate armor, and they are more versatile with two edges and a thrusting tip.
Doesn't matter, they all do (STR/2+3)P.
-
Comparing a longsword and a katana is like arguing between strength and speed. The longsword is heavier, but doesn't hold its edge as well. The katana is quicker, but doesn't have the same kinetic energy of a heavier weapon, meaning it doesn't have the same brute force as, say, a claymore. In Europe, where battles were fought upon horseback or using a sword and shield and plate armor, a heavier blade had the best chance of doing damage, unless you were nimble enough to pierce the gaps in the joints. However, that extra weight of sword, shield, and armor made one slower. The European style would be to focus on defense through heavier armor, then.
In contrast, the Japanese style focuses on speed and mobility. Even their heavy armor was quite light compared to plate armor. Because of this, they focused on a style that involved quick strikes, and an instant turn from parry to attack. A lighter blade, with an edge that was very sharp, is able to do more in such situations than a heavier blade.
Keep in mind that in Shadowrun modern alloys and monowire edges can largely eliminate the differences in weight, sharpness and edge-retention between styles of blades. Armor is also wildly different than it was during the era i which the weapons evolved, and it is likely that fighting styles have evolved as well.
Curved blades are the best because they draw faster than straight blades, and allow for quick feints and vicious draw-cuts against lightly armored and unarmored opponents.
Straight blades are the best because they allow for a harder chopping cut that can penetrate armor, and they are more versatile with two edges and a thrusting tip.
Doesn't matter, they all do (STR/2+3)P.
It pretty much comes down to personal style for the character. Some want a katana-wielding samurai-wannabe-badass, while others want a longsword-wielding badass. Neither is wrong, neither is right.
-
Melee has 3 advantages:
Stealth, Monowire, and Trolls.
Also, I say monofilament bow(like violin bow) beats EVERYTHING. i mean, like, just getting it past security. "It's my spare violin bow! What? I don't have a violin? Fuck you." ;D
-
Curved blades are the best because they draw faster than straight blades, and allow for quick feints and vicious draw-cuts against lightly armored and unarmored opponents.
Straight blades are the best because they allow for a harder chopping cut that can penetrate armor, and they are more versatile with two edges and a thrusting tip.
Doesn't matter, they all do (STR/2+3)P.
Except the Katana, which does (STR/2+3)P AP -1... which is, in fact, the quirk that started this whole debate since, as you just pointed out, the straight-edged blades lumped under "Sword" are better at hurting armored opponents. ;)
Melee has 3 advantages:
Stealth, Monowire, and Trolls.
Also, I say monofilament bow(like violin bow) beats EVERYTHING. i mean, like, just getting it past security. "It's my spare violin bow! What? I don't have a violin? Fuck you." ;D
That is pure evil. I love it.
-
For bonus points, put it in a case that looks EXACTLY like the real violin bow's case. Why? So if you glitch:
"You hit him with the edge of your bow. It does absolutely nothing." ;)
-
Well, in order to get the right balance for a melee weapon, you first have to take into consideration the biometrics of the person that's going to be using the weapon in question, then...
...
I misunderstood the question, didn't I?
-
"Consider a spherical sword of dimension ..."
-
Vibroswords for the win! Basically your one handed, noisy no-dachi. Statwise. Heyo! Looks like technology beats class and style.
-
When they get dull, they're handy in the bedroom, too!
-
Curved blades are the best because they draw faster than straight blades, and allow for quick feints and vicious draw-cuts against lightly armored and unarmored opponents.
Straight blades are the best because they allow for a harder chopping cut that can penetrate armor, and they are more versatile with two edges and a thrusting tip.
Doesn't matter, they all do (STR/2+3)P.
Except the Katana, which does (STR/2+3)P AP -1... which is, in fact, the quirk that started this whole debate since, as you just pointed out, the straight-edged blades lumped under "Sword" are better at hurting armored opponents. ;)
That's what you do when you want to represent the benefit of concentrating your force and momentum onto a smaller area due to the curve of the blade but don't have the ability to represent being better at slicing through the soft bits - when we consider the blades in their original form, at least. Obviously if the system were able to describe the blades' differing facilities for different techniques and targets, we could expect a more accurate representation.
Thinking about the physics of it for a second though, assume a hypothetical pairing of katana and longsword are made of the same material. If the force with which they meet a piece of armour is equal, the katana will have a better chance of piercing the armour because it's producing a greater amount of pressure - the smaller area of contact has a multiplicative effect (this isn't unique to katana, but rather a trait of all curved blades assuming the edge is external rather than internal as with a kukri). Accordingly, the question becomes whether or not the longsword has some advantage in striking force over the katana that makes up the difference - which would require a very substantial difference of force. Incidentally, this consideration also provides a potential explanation for the "two-body blade", as the katana would be able to place more pressure on a smaller point of the spinal cord and thus have a better shot at severing it than it would through sheer force.
As for the out-of-game why they're not all the same stat-wise: That would be immensely dissatisfying for some new players.
-
That's what you do when you want to represent the benefit of concentrating your force and momentum onto a smaller area due to the curve of the blade but don't have the ability to represent being better at slicing through the soft bits - when we consider the blades in their original form, at least. Obviously if the system were able to describe the blades' differing facilities for different techniques and targets, we could expect a more accurate representation.
Describing particular maneuvers could be given a bonus dice for effective tactics or effective use against particular armors or enemies - in a sense this is what Called Shots represent.
the smaller area of contact has a multiplicative effect (this isn't unique to katana, but rather a trait of all curved blades assuming the edge is external rather than internal as with a kukri).
I'm more familiar with the shamshir, kopis, and machete than katana as far as maneuvers and particulars of their use, but I know this holds true for those weapons. Of course, I think that a number of straight-edged weapons should have a distinct advantage over curved blades in armor penetration because you don't apply the length of the blade - the longsword was designed to allow a variety of motions, the katana and machete are designed to chop; while a katar, gladius, tantou, cinquedea, or the utilitarian rondel dagger (forefather of the stiletto), which arose specifically to punch through heavily-armored opponents. There are even some martial arts that arose to take advantage of its penetration or a more general development of aiming for the chinks in an opponent's armor.
Remember, not all swords are used for chopping, and the ones that aren't are more likely to be the anti-armor variety.