Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Major Doom on <10-19-10/1328:13>
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I'm preparing to run SR in January 2011, and was looking for ideas on how to handle equipment carried by the PCs. I had run WoD (nWoD) and used the idea of Carried Gear and Adventure Gear, where Carried Gear was on the PCs all the time (ie: cell phone, flash light, condoms, etc.) and Adventure Gear would be a gym bag or back pack stored in a closet or trunk of a car with extra equipment normally not feasible to carry all the time (weapons, explosives, large container of KY Jelly, etc.) except when a mission required or shit hit the fan. Although the idea was simplistic, my players were too lazy to maintain the separate list, kept arguing that they always had certain items on them or certain items wasn't normally carried so it shouldn't have gotten stolen or lost.
So to eliminate such bickering I'm deciding to go with the rule "if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it". Of course I can foresee arguments about encumbrance and how it's not fair for the PCs to limit their equipment based on Encumbrance rules. Frankly, I don't really care about the players opine on this matter, but I'm wondering what has other GMs done in the past to handle PCs equipment and encumbrance?
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Bags of holding work wonders for encumberance! Seriously, I know we get alittle crazy with what we are carrying, so inforcing the "On your sheet, on your bod" rule will get them to make the necessary notations and lighten up their characters. For My character to date Encumberance isn't to big of a deal. As long as it isn't his bike he is unincumbered! No firearms, no ammo, not alot for him to carry on the mission besides some mission equipment, grenades, slap patches, Axe, & the armor on his back!
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You will notice none of the gear in shadowrun has a weight listed, except explosives which derive damage from kilograms used. Encumbrance and carrying limits exist but its mostly handwaived. So long as you have armor <= Body x2 you are not encumbered. If players have a tendency to take that a little overboard you can just flat tell them walking down the street with an assault rifle is bound to get them into trouble.
I personally have no problems keeping separate gear lists for carried, in storage, even in storage in separate countries around the world but there are players in my group who don't even track their current unspent nuyen correctly, having to recalculate from the group total any time they feel like they want to buy a piece of gear. The key thing to remember is we do this for fun, and excessive bookkeeping is not fun. A simple way to handle it would be to have off mission and on mission gear, with off mission gear including only things they have fake licences for and no forbidden rating gear. Even then you can expect to be questioned about that assault rifle you are carrying pretty frequently as you walk into various coffee shops.
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I usually do it like you did with the all the time gear and combat gear. Recently though as long as my players don't go nuts I let it slide unless they are trying to get into a nice place. They are fairly restrained with what they carry around with them. It doesn't hurt that they've got drones that will airdrop their gear to them.
Honestly, the way I see the 6th world it's considered smart to have a pistol on you at all times. With heavier firearms coming out in the barrens and those quaint feral cities.
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Well the on the sheet on the character thing would just not work for my character since he has more firearms than the rest of the party combined...probably double actually. But the idea works for most characters.
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Well the on the sheet on the character thing would just not work for my character since he has more firearms than the rest of the party combined...probably double actually. But the idea works for most characters.
The rest of the party have one gun between them so quite a bit more than double actually.
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Oh really only one then yes at least triple...i like to have options.
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Yes, options are good... how many other runners are there?
I might be in the same boat actually. I think my character, when I play, has more guns than the rest of the team. Then again I have a player who insists you should be able to smartlink a katana. ::)
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The group I play with is also guns lite on everyone who isn't me. They each have 1 pistol (mainly because I make them) and 2 of them have heavier weapons, so a grand total of 6 guns out there. My character has 6 pistols including 3 SA Puzzlers to defeat MAD scanners, and various long arms and automatic weapons, at least double the rest of the party probably triple since I become the default quartermaster for firearms in the group. It helps that I am more detailed with things like where various guns are stored with my character.
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There are three other runners in the group. I'm packing 8 pistols 3 sniper rifles an assault rifle a SMG and a LMG oh and also a grenade launcher.
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You will notice none of the gear in shadowrun 4(A) has a weight listed,
fixed it for You ;)
For Me it comes naturally to list the equipment on Body, equip on the Run,equip in Car,emergency kit,etc
(Maybe 'cause I'm Oldschool and its no burden for me to list it, nor writing down all the Weapons ,ammo,clips and weaponmods or add-ons.Its fun for Me and only fair to the GM (I consider it professional Gaming behavior)
My character has 6 pistols including 3 SA Puzzlers to defeat MAD scanners, and various long arms and automatic weapons
Same if not more here(at least for the Streetsams) :)
Most of my Chars are like Boyscouts(Allways prepared).Different Situations/Runs demand different Weapons and its quite Professional to have the proper Tools for the Job
with more Dances
Medicineman
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@Dakka: Karina actually has a Predator and a Puzzler, although I don't think she's ever fired the latter.
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"if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it".
You must be running your game purely in the barrens or one in one of the feral cities(Chicago,Lagos etc.) if you just allow your players to walk aroun heavily armored packing tons of heat.
The meets with the Johnsons must be pretty intresting, what with the players packing military grade heat in to a peaceful meet.
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Frankly, I don't really care about the players opine on this matter ....
I really don't see a way to succeed with this attitude. There's no way to resolve differences in expectations without reaching an agreement.
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There are three other runners in the group. I'm packing 8 pistols 3 sniper rifles an assault rifle a SMG and a LMG oh and also a grenade launcher.
And Code has a pistol and a taser, I don't remember if Nestor has anything besides a Katana, but he has been playing character Catch-Up so I can hold off on what he's packing. I still owe you 45Y for the grenade of yours I launched. It was worth it though :-* :D
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"if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it".
You must be running your game purely in the barrens or one in one of the feral cities(Chicago,Lagos etc.) if you just allow your players to walk aroun heavily armored packing tons of heat.
The meets with the Johnsons must be pretty intresting, what with the players packing military grade heat in to a peaceful meet.
Actually I'm going to be running it in Seattle metroplex as whole. My reasoning behind the decision is from experience with some of the group members being lazy about keeping track of gear, argumentative when an unfavorable decision is made based on their absurd actions (ie: sleeping in a public park at night and getting robbed), also to reduce bookkeeping across the board, since there are just too many toys in SR. This decision also has the nice twist that it will be the player's responsibility to decide what gear they really need.
Frankly, I don't really care about the players opine on this matter ....
I really don't see a way to succeed with this attitude. There's no way to resolve differences in expectations without reaching an agreement.
Such attitude comes with dealing with petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players that expect to exploit fantasy without an iota of realism. You sir may be lucky as to have reasonable players who understand to work with the GM and ground some concepts in reality, I unfortunately do not have such luxury.
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Why do you play with them, then? I'm guessing these are friends who you like socially, but have trouble with in gaming? Happens a lot. The trouble is, if they won't work with you, they just won't work with you. There's no way to force people into accepting your rules. Even if they superficially accept it, they'll still rebel and give you the kind of grief you're having now.
Have you considered building sympathy by sharing the GM job? Or going on strike?
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Such attitude comes with dealing with petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players that expect to exploit fantasy without an iota of realism. You sir may be lucky as to have reasonable players who understand to work with the GM and ground some concepts in reality, I unfortunately do not have such luxury.
There's something much more important than encumbrance and equipment lists at play here. You're on your way towards a pretty unhealthy relationship with your players, which will lead to an "players vs. GM" game, which will lead to friendships being genuinely threatened (if they aren't already). If I were you, I'd invite your players to read this thread so that they can see what you think about them.
If they react to it in a manner that shows concern over what they've done to make you think this poorly of them, perhaps a friendship (which should be of primary importance) and a stable gaming group (which should be secondary) can be salvaged, and things can roll on towards Funtown and the clatter of dice.
If they get pissed at you for talking about them this way behind their back, maybe it's time to call it quits; you don't seem to think much of them, and they probably wouldn't think much of you.
You're not encouraging realism if you've got characters that don't own anything but what they carry around with them everywhere they go. In the short term, that can be a fun character concept (and one I've started with, more than once), but in the long run characters should have spare weapons, extra ammunition, obvious armor they don't wear everywhere, changes of clothing, first aid kits, electronics, and all sorts of other stuff that it isn't "a game concept grounded in reality" for them to be carrying with them to a fancy meet with a Johnson in Downtown.
You're being just as unrealistic as they are, and as the GM it's not your job to go "tit for tat" like that, anyways.
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"if your character has it written down then it is on his/her person at all times, otherwise the character doesn't have it".
You must be running your game purely in the barrens or one in one of the feral cities(Chicago,Lagos etc.) if you just allow your players to walk aroun heavily armored packing tons of heat.
The meets with the Johnsons must be pretty intresting, what with the players packing military grade heat in to a peaceful meet.
Actually I'm going to be running it in Seattle metroplex as whole.
Then i guess the only player surviving to end of first session is the pure face(if the team has one and he's smart enought to stay far away from the rest of the team) as everyone else most likely ends up dead in a fire fight with Knight Errant and possibly military if they fare too well against KE.
That kind of rule might work in D&D, but it doesn't work in Shadowrun.
You just can not walk down the main street of Seattle carrying a ton of illegal military grade weapons, while wearing "heavy" armor.
All of which is standard equipment for shadow runners.
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Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
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There has to be a area of handwavium. Does Usda have cloths? Yes. where are they in his home... mostly but he's probably have something to change into after a run. Does he have grenades? Yes.Does he always carry them? No.
Doom asks us before we even begin running what do you have with you & do you want to buy anything before you go? I have all my gear on the sheet for when we're running. Anytime else equipment is situational, I am going back to Full body FFBA so I can wear it under some loose fitting cloths! As long as I have my fists I'm armed but in Seattle... on the streets... You just have to be careful!
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Why do you play with them, then? I'm guessing these are friends who you like socially, but have trouble with in gaming? Happens a lot. The trouble is, if they won't work with you, they just won't work with you. There's no way to force people into accepting your rules. Even if they superficially accept it, they'll still rebel and give you the kind of grief you're having now.
Have you considered building sympathy by sharing the GM job? Or going on strike?
Yes majority of the players are kith, and I've played RPGs with them for over a decade. I'm not trying to have the players accept my rules, but attempting to alleviate the necessary micromanagement of gear to focus more on enjoying the game along with other inherent concepts of SR. I have worked with them in the past (concerning gear and encumbrance), which they applauded me on the idea of Carried Gear and Adventure Gear when I ran World Of Darkness, but unfortunately I couldn't manage their lack of organization which resulted in arguments and complaints when a situation would arise, such as getting robbed or character killed, and players declaring that their adventure gear did not have certain valued items so it should be safe and not lost.
As for the GM job, I took up because these fellow kith have run games before but have a tendency to just stop running it for no reason. Games would run a few game session, gain steam, and then just dropped dead. So if I go on strike, then there will be no gaming at all.
There's something much more important than encumbrance and equipment lists at play here. You're on your way towards a pretty unhealthy relationship with your players, which will lead to an "players vs. GM" game, which will lead to friendships being genuinely threatened (if they aren't already). If I were you, I'd invite your players to read this thread so that they can see what you think about them.
If they react to it in a manner that shows concern over what they've done to make you think this poorly of them, perhaps a friendship (which should be of primary importance) and a stable gaming group (which should be secondary) can be salvaged, and things can roll on towards Funtown and the clatter of dice.
If they get pissed at you for talking about them this way behind their back, maybe it's time to call it quits; you don't seem to think much of them, and they probably wouldn't think much of you.
You're not encouraging realism if you've got characters that don't own anything but what they carry around with them everywhere they go. In the short term, that can be a fun character concept (and one I've started with, more than once), but in the long run characters should have spare weapons, extra ammunition, obvious armor they don't wear everywhere, changes of clothing, first aid kits, electronics, and all sorts of other stuff that it isn't "a game concept grounded in reality" for them to be carrying with them to a fancy meet with a Johnson in Downtown.
You're being just as unrealistic as they are, and as the GM it's not your job to go "tit for tat" like that, anyways.
My players already know my view and opinion. I've talked to them, encouraged them, vocalized concerns, but alas there is no remedy for player laziness. In fact, among the three kith whom have GMed games before, they never took the time to work with players on a game. I've taken up a hands on approach and got them involved in my ideas and tried to work out any issues, but I get resistance because their mentality is "The GM is the enemy".
For example, when I ran World of Darkness, one of the players was a vampire. His character was shot, but in the middle of combat he attempted to use a vampiric power that requires no distractions with the target. I ruled that since his character was shot, it's considered a distraction. He, and the rest of the group, argued that being shot is not a distraction because a vampire reacts to distractions differently than a normal mortal. Eventually the player moved on, but needless to say, they argued with me on something that was a sound and factual judgement on my part.
Then i guess the only player surviving to end of first session is the pure face(if the team has one and he's smart enought to stay far away from the rest of the team) as everyone else most likely ends up dead in a fire fight with Knight Errant and possibly military if they fare too well against KE.
That kind of rule might work in D&D, but it doesn't work in Shadowrun.
You just can not walk down the main street of Seattle carrying a ton of illegal military grade weapons, while wearing "heavy" armor.
All of which is standard equipment for shadow runners.
My theme for the game I'm running is "dystopian paranoia". It's the players job to survive and overcome the challenges I'm planning on deploying. As I read from Runner's Companion, Runner's Haven, and Seattle 2072, a Shadowrunner has to be paranoid. One of the challenges the players have to deal with is gear management, including the responsibility to decide what gear do they really need. Unfortunately, due to past experience with majority of the group they tend to overlook such a task as insignificant because they expect to have access to all gear, as long as they have the funds, but without the responsibility of encumbrance and tracking. So if their PCs get robbed or killed (due to their actions), they fret. Which is what I was looking to tackle with ideas from SR Forums. I have one idea as I mentioned it, which I think is fair and reasonable as far as simplifying gear and encumbrance, so focus on the other aspects of the game aren't lost.
Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
That's a good question, and a philosophical one too. But let me ask you this, have you ever ran a game where everyone got along and there were no arguments or complaints?
There has to be a area of handwavium. Does Usda have cloths? Yes. where are they in his home... mostly but he's probably have something to change into after a run. Does he have grenades? Yes.Does he always carry them? No.
Doom asks us before we even begin running what do you have with you & do you want to buy anything before you go? I have all my gear on the sheet for when we're running. Anytime else equipment is situational, I am going back to Full body FFBA so I can wear it under some loose fitting cloths! As long as I have my fists I'm armed but in Seattle... on the streets... You just have to be careful!
So what do you say to a player that has their character go on a run, doesn't write down or mention that they brought their grenades, then declares they are tossing grenades in middle of combat? What do you say if the player continues to press the issue that since they are going on a run, it should be automatic that they brought the grenades?
This is one situation I have experienced, hence why I'm thinking of sticking to my original idea of "if it's on your character sheet, it's on you at all times". But I'm also looking for ideas gear management, which why I'm asking from the forum community.
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Why not have folks work up two gear lists? One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?
Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism. There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted. You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.
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Try using Concealablity as a means to promote what's on them as an "everyday" item. If they concealability of an item (including bonuses from longcoats/holsters/etc.) is zero or less, you can say they carry it on them at all times. If it's above zero, let them know that they may be noticed carrying it by the average person on the street.
For instance, your average 'Runner will be able to carry a Heavy Pistol by tucking it in his waistband and wearing a shirt (Hvy Pistol's got a Concealability of 0). But if he wants to carry a machine pistol, he'd be better off wearing a lined coat (grants -2 to the Machine Pistol's Concealability of 2).
House rule: If they are carrying more than one of any class of item (light pistol, heavy pistol, grenade, etc.), add a +1 concealability for every item over the first. A guy with a grenade in his coat pocket has a concealability of 0 to notice it. If he's got 5 grenades stashed on him, he'll have a concealability of 5. Likewise a guy with 2 light pistols would have a -1 Concealability rather than the normal -2. This would prevent them from carrying twelve grenades and four heavy pistols.
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So what do you say to a player that has their character go on a run, doesn't write down or mention that they brought their grenades, then declares they are tossing grenades in middle of combat? What do you say if the player continues to press the issue that since they are going on a run, it should be automatic that they brought the grenades?
This is one situation I have experienced, hence why I'm thinking of sticking to my original idea of "if it's on your character sheet, it's on you at all times". But I'm also looking for ideas gear management, which why I'm asking from the forum community.
Well as with how I figure Doom will handle it, If I didn't say I brought my Grenades they are safely stashed in the strong box back at my house. If they are not wrote down then I MUST have left them at the crime mall! If they aren't on the sheet they obviously forgot them.
What it boils down to is you are the GM, If you don't inforce the rules YOU want followed, why should the players follow them? At the beginning of the session ask for the players to list what they are bringing & don't start the game till its done. They'll piss and moan the first few times but they will have to learn that it's kinda hard to carry a XXL Panther and 400 rounds unseen.
Or have the Po Po pull them over with the 5th MarDiv as back up and arrest them for trafficing illegal arms/equipment/etc.
I had to drop a nuke on my CBT players before cause they couldn't understand the simple request to stop bringing only 100 ton monsters to the table!
Honestly you aren't asking that much of the players! Yes still allow some hand wavium room but if they try to throw a 7th HE grenade and only brought 6... Well they need to switch to frag! :-*
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Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?
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Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?
Heh I'm pretty sure that quote comes up in every session we play.
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Jayne Cobb: Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?
Heh I'm pretty sure that quote comes up in every session we play.
I think there was one where it didn't... maybe
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Why not have folks work up two gear lists? One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?
Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism. There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted. You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.
I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement. I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous". My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance. It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort. See, I can pass judgement too. :)
I tried the whole separate gear list based on situation, except I couldn't force players to make the effort to manage it. So I'm thinking of going with something that requires very little effort on their part. Is it perfect? Of course not. But it'll put the responsibility in their hands. If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence). If they need the gear again, acquire it again. Yes this is very crude, but it can't get any simpler for lazy players. Besides, IMO it has the nice touch of portraying the disposable mentality of modern consumerism.
Try using Concealablity as a means to promote what's on them as an "everyday" item. If they concealability of an item (including bonuses from longcoats/holsters/etc.) is zero or less, you can say they carry it on them at all times. If it's above zero, let them know that they may be noticed carrying it by the average person on the street.
For instance, your average 'Runner will be able to carry a Heavy Pistol by tucking it in his waistband and wearing a shirt (Hvy Pistol's got a Concealability of 0). But if he wants to carry a machine pistol, he'd be better off wearing a lined coat (grants -2 to the Machine Pistol's Concealability of 2).
Yes I will be using the concealability rules. But I'm aiming to run a paranoid and survivalist themed game. I know it's a harsh way of portraying SR, but it will sate the players' blood lust.
Well as with how I figure Doom will handle it, If I didn't say I brought my Grenades they are safely stashed in the strong box back at my house. If they are not wrote down then I MUST have left them at the crime mall! If they aren't on the sheet they obviously forgot them.
What it boils down to is you are the GM, If you don't inforce the rules YOU want followed, why should the players follow them? At the beginning of the session ask for the players to list what they are bringing & don't start the game till its done. They'll piss and moan the first few times but they will have to learn that it's kinda hard to carry a XXL Panther and 400 rounds unseen.
Or have the Po Po pull them over with the 5th MarDiv as back up and arrest them for trafficing illegal arms/equipment/etc.
I had to drop a nuke on my CBT players before cause they couldn't understand the simple request to stop bringing only 100 ton monsters to the table!
Honestly you aren't asking that much of the players! Yes still allow some hand wavium room but if they try to throw a 7th HE grenade and only brought 6... Well they need to switch to frag! :-*
I do enforce the rules, which is why the players sulk. But it doesn't stop them from making absurd statements that certain items should be automatically be available. My new idea for handling gear is to mitigate the absurd claims, or at least minimize it. But I'm still looking for ideas to make it as close to ideal as possible, that's why I posted this question.
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Yes I will be using the concealability rules. But I'm aiming to run a paranoid and survivalist themed game. I know it's a harsh way of portraying SR, but it will sate the players' blood lust.
Easiest way is just to let them know that when they are on the street, you'll be making random Perception checks and will make more Perception checks for more crowded areas. You don't even have to tell them that the chance of their items will be spotted, just the fact that they know the world is watching will make them plenty paranoid. The checks don't even have to be real. If they tell you they're going to the mall, just look up at them and roll some dice - doesn't matter what the results are - and give them that knowing smile.
Rules don't dictate how the characters see the setting, YOU do.
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Why not have folks work up two gear lists? One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?
Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism. There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted. You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.
I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement. I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous". My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance. It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort. See, I can pass judgement too. :)
I tried the whole separate gear list based on situation, except I couldn't force players to make the effort to manage it. So I'm thinking of going with something that requires very little effort on their part. Is it perfect? Of course not. But it'll put the responsibility in their hands. If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence). If they need the gear again, acquire it again. Yes this is very crude, but it can't get any simpler for lazy players. Besides, IMO it has the nice touch of portraying the disposable mentality of modern consumerism.
Yeah, okay. Good luck with your train wreck of a game, then. All I'm trying to tell you is that you've got more to worry about than encumbrance, given the attitude and tone you're showing concerning the direction this game is headed, your feelings towards your players, etc, etc. If you don't want to hear it, fine. You don't want to hear it.
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If they have a situation that requires them to be surreptitious or not stick out, then they should offload their gear (garbage, charity, or fence). If they need the gear again, acquire it again.
So not only are you enforcing a rule that your runners have to carry all their illegal gear they own with them at all times, but your also enforcing a realistic world, meaning they cant go anywhere with that gear.
Okey, thats so far beyond bongers i cant even come up with a word to describe how crazy that is.
And really how hard is it to enforce a rule that players have to give you in writing the gear they're backing to a run/meet/trip to town/whatever, which would be a hell a lot more sensible way to handle gear.
Unless your playing with the laziest people in the world, it shouldn't be too much to ask of them, especially as they can just make a bunch of those lists in the first session and then use them for the rest of the campaing(updating when necessary)
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Why not have folks work up two gear lists? One "everyday" list (for any time they leave their apartment/house/gutter) and one "on a run" list (for every time they've had a chance to go home from a meet and gear up before a Run, or whatever)?
Because your idea of "if you own it, you carry it with you everywhere you go, all the time, no matter what" is pretty ridiculous, especially if it's meant to promote realism. There are places in Seattle you don't go with weapons that can't be concealed, or armor that's obvious and restricted. You're being silly and petty as a means of getting back at your players for their perceived silliness and pettiness, and no good comes from that.
I'm looking for ideas on how to handle gear, not judgement. I don't really care that you think my idea of handling gear is "pretty ridiculous". My reasoning for the way I'm thinking of handling gear is born out of circumstance. It may be "silly and petty" to you, because well you're an ignorant ass who can't understand that not all GMs are blessed with perfect players that are willing to exert effort. See, I can pass judgement too. :)
[snip]
What we have here is the difference between attacking actions and attacking a person. Major Doom, I can understand why you would not like being described as silly and petty, but those are Critias' opinions on your actions. Coming back and calling him an "ignorant ass," on the other hand, is a personal attack, which is forbidden by Rule 1.
I'm going to try moderating with a light touch for the time being since we haven't had too many problems so far, so at the moment this is just a warning. I hope no more action will be needed.
Jason H.
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While I understand a mod's gotta mod, as far as I'm concerned, no blood no foul. He shared a problem, I offered advice and opinion, and he didn't like it. That's life. I hope his game goes better, but until he or his players acknowledge what I perceive as the much larger problem (when compared to encumbrance issues), I don't think they'll have a very good time.
I'm sorry if my comments weren't welcome, and/or were taken the wrong way. I don't want to see anyone get into mod trouble over it, at any rate.
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Easiest way is just to let them know that when they are on the street, you'll be making random Perception checks and will make more Perception checks for more crowded areas. You don't even have to tell them that the chance of their items will be spotted, just the fact that they know the world is watching will make them plenty paranoid. The checks don't even have to be real. If they tell you they're going to the mall, just look up at them and roll some dice - doesn't matter what the results are - and give them that knowing smile.
Rules don't dictate how the characters see the setting, YOU do.
Yeah I like this idea of inducing paranoia, since it's what I'm aiming at. I've entertained the idea that I'll ask the players to roll initiative on random occasions where no combat is even supposed to occur (unless the PCs create such a situation), keeping them on their toes once in a while.
Yeah, okay. Good luck with your train wreck of a game, then. All I'm trying to tell you is that you've got more to worry about than encumbrance, given the attitude and tone you're showing concerning the direction this game is headed, your feelings towards your players, etc, etc. If you don't want to hear it, fine. You don't want to hear it.
Thanks Dr. Phil, I'll be sure to keep your psychoanalytical comments in mind about my "train wreck of game" since a single plausible ruling is "silly and petty". That's real stellar support.
So not only are you enforcing a rule that your runners have to carry all their illegal gear they own with them at all times, but your also enforcing a realistic world, meaning they cant go anywhere with that gear.
Okey, thats so far beyond bongers i cant even come up with a word to describe how crazy that is.
And really how hard is it to enforce a rule that players have to give you in writing the gear they're backing to a run/meet/trip to town/whatever, which would be a hell a lot more sensible way to handle gear.
Unless your playing with the laziest people in the world, it shouldn't be too much to ask of them, especially as they can just make a bunch of those lists in the first session and then use them for the rest of the campaing(updating when necessary)
I don't think you have been paying attention to what my circumstance is for making such a ruling. But it's okay, just keep pressing that Report to moderator link on my posts and you don't have to worry about my original issue.
What we have here is the difference between attacking actions and attacking a person. Major Doom, I can understand why you would not like being described as silly and petty, but those are Critias' opinions on your actions. Coming back and calling him an "ignorant ass," on the other hand, is a personal attack, which is forbidden by Rule 1.
I'm going to try moderating with a light touch for the time being since we haven't had too many problems so far, so at the moment this is just a warning. I hope no more action will be needed.
Jason H.
Yeah awesome moderation here buddy. Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.
While I understand a mod's gotta mod, as far as I'm concerned, no blood no foul. He shared a problem, I offered advice and opinion, and he didn't like it. That's life. I hope his game goes better, but until he or his players acknowledge what I perceive as the much larger problem (when compared to encumbrance issues), I don't think they'll have a very good time.
I'm sorry if my comments weren't welcome, and/or were taken the wrong way. I don't want to see anyone get into mod trouble over it, at any rate.
Again, thanks for the psychoanalysis Dr. Freud. Your opine and kitsch remarks on the outcome of my game due to a single ruling is very enlightening. Aside from calling you an ignorant ass (Hey mod, oops I did it again ;D), which is a remark I still continue to stand by, following your continued snide and haughty comments since I did not pass any claim against you.
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Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread). RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).
When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea. The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers. That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling.
You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder. Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.
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Why in gods name would you want to play with people you obviously can't agree with in the first place? o_O
That's a good question, and a philosophical one too. But let me ask you this, have you ever ran a game where everyone got along and there were no arguments or complaints?
Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.
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Actually, I'm going to have to agree with Doc on this one. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had serious arguments (not rules debates, but heated name-calling) and people that didn't get along in my 15+ years of gaming.
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I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.
Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!
Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)
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Major Doom...warning two.
Critias...warning one.
Bans are forthcoming if this persists.
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Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread). RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).
When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea. The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers. That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling.
You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder. Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.
As I explained in my previous posts, I have a circumstance with some of the players, but not all. I've spoken to them about it, several times mind you, but I can't control how they handle gear. Unfortunately they tend to object quite temperamentally where they believe the situation should benefit them, even though the PCs decision resulted in gear mismanagement (ie: lost, destruction, theft, etc.)
You can't just exploit one single game ruling I am seriously considering utilizing and claim my game will be a trainwreck. I've explained the facts to you (and to other members) as objectively as possible, yet you claimed my single game ruling was silly and petty and I have more serious issues forthcoming. To me that was subjective opinion on your hand, naively attempting to predict the end result of something you do not have first hand experience with. My vocalization was not an expression of having a chip on my shoulders, but of frustration, because I have tried your, and the other members' advice, in the past. So I appreciate your candor in apologizing, but you have to maintain an open-mind on the situation I have.
Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.
Well I've done this before with very little leeway on part of the players. I can try again and hope for a new outcome, but that's the definition of insanity.
I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.
Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!
Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)
Thanks, at least someone has an understanding of my plight concerning this issue.
Major Doom...warning two.
Critias...warning one.
Bans are forthcoming if this persists.
Seriously? Why even have a forum, if your finger is just hovering over the proverbial ban key? Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?
And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
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And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.
This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.
Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.
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Doom, I'm not sure where the chip on your shoulder's coming from, but if you take a second to reread this thread you'll see that you're outright insulting your players, calling them lazy, and just generally sounding very confrontational towards them (not only towards folks who post in this thread). RPG's don't work very well that way, with a few slapstick comedy body-count games notwithstanding (Paranoia or something is fun when played "us vs. them," but most RPG's just kind of fall apart in that sort of atmosphere).
When I "opine" on your game, it's not necessarily because of your idea regarding equipment lists, but rather the attitude you're showing around that idea. The reasons you give for it, the justification you're using for it, and the feelings of antipathy you seem to show towards your gamers. That is something that I think should be of more concern to you than some "if it's written on your sheet, you carry it with you everywhere" ruling.
You obviously disagree, and are certainly free to do so, but it'd sure be nice if you could do so with a little less of a chip on your shoulder. Again, I'm sorry if my comments are being taken in a bad way -- and they obviously are -- but I hope, for the sake of your game, you and your gamers can reach some sort of consensus here and manage to get along a little better.
As I explained in my previous posts, I have a circumstance with some of the players, but not all. I've spoken to them about it, several times mind you, but I can't control how they handle gear. Unfortunately they tend to object quite temperamentally where they believe the situation should benefit them, even though the PCs decision resulted in gear mismanagement (ie: lost, destruction, theft, etc.)
You can't just exploit one single game ruling I am seriously considering utilizing and claim my game will be a trainwreck. I've explained the facts to you (and to other members) as objectively as possible, yet you claimed my single game ruling was silly and petty and I have more serious issues forthcoming. To me that was subjective opinion on your hand, naively attempting to predict the end result of something you do not have first hand experience with. My vocalization was not an expression of having a chip on my shoulders, but of frustration, because I have tried your, and the other members' advice, in the past. So I appreciate your candor in apologizing, but you have to maintain an open-mind on the situation I have.
Yes, after we sat down and openly discussed every point and reached either agreement or compromise.
Well I've done this before with very little leeway on part of the players. I can try again and hope for a new outcome, but that's the definition of insanity.
I've seen both sides of this argument. I've been the GM needing to slap a "ALL SPELLS FOR THE DAY MUST BE TURNED IN TO ME BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS OR YOU GOT NUTHIN" groups, and I have seen GMs that insist "your character is going to only get THIS list of spells cause I rolled them for you!" retentive actions.
Doom is in between this. I know players who will exploit the I am carrying my Big Bad Colossal Weapon of Doom (TM) even if I am wearing shorts and a tank top... In Church, after passing 3 metal detectors and 14 check points with 7 strip searchs and nobody see it! crap!
Doom has a right to be a bit pissed at his players if they won't honor a simple request like list your gear that you are taking when not on a mission. Realisticly there is always a time when you're going to get caught with your pants down! ;)
Thanks, at least someone has an understanding of my plight concerning this issue.
First, I would like to state that I have been in your shoes. I've had that guy/group. In fact I shared it with the class in the "Gaming Horror stories" thread. It sucks. However, I must agree with Doc & FJ about the fact that if it really is that bad, and you really can't resolve the issue after repeated attempts, and you really can't seem to get it all working (without having to add new limitations and rules about gear), then perhaps it's time to switch groups. Or possibly switch games (heaven forbid) to something that doesn't need that kind of strict bookkeeping that they so obviously don't want to deal with.
Also, I would like to note that Critias' assessment of your ideas to add in new rules and restrictions and whatnot about lists of gear and other various things is fairly right on. He may not have said it in the nicest way, but I think what he was trying to get at was that there's a deeper issue here that needs to be resolved, and by adding new house rules into the mix, the only thing that will happen is more paperwork and more work on your end of the table, or perhaps the players resentment will rise, etc. None of which are going to help the problem or the gaming group.
Now, that being said, I have a suggestion for you that may help. It didn't with my problem player back in the day, but all the other players really liked it and I have been doing it ever since that trial period back in the day. And honestly, it's not even anything really special or out of the ordinary. Here it goes - you ready?
Role play out the scenes where they enter new buildings, bars, malls, complexes, churches, back ally pit fighting clubs, gang HQ's, and any and every meeting with a Johnson, or any contact with a loyalty rating less than about 3 or 4. Actually describe what the security is like, what scans they are going through, and how tough it really is to sneak a weapon into a place that doesn't want weapons there. This does a few things, all of which are good for a game (imo). First, it increases the realism, which a lot of people like, some not so much, but in this case, it does so in a very nice manner that even "anti-realism" people can appreciate, modified to fit their play style of course. Second, it shows the characters a bit of "you're not the only players in town", which is a good theme for the game, and often a good lesson to learn early in a characters SRing career. third and finally, it gives you, the GM, an easy way out for the issues where players say they snuck something into a place. they obviously didn't say they had it on them if you never found it with all the scans and security, and you have a really good leg to stand on when you tell them they don't have the minigun with them and the AAA yakuza sushi bar johnson meeting. On the flip side of the same argument, if you decide to have them make lists of something similar, any "forgotten" item can be explained away as "you figured you couldn't get it past security so you left it at home." Everyone wins. And by everyone, I mean the game and the group as a whole.
Major Doom...warning two.
Critias...warning one.
Bans are forthcoming if this persists.
Seriously? Why even have a forum, if your finger is just hovering over the proverbial ban key? Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?
And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
Personally, I think we have a really good, relaxed and pretty chill forum here, and the Mods are doing an excellent job. I doubt that anyone bothered to push the "report" button, and more likely than not, one of the mods was just surfing the forum and read your post because - believe it or not - the mods here are gamers like us, and are interested in contributing, participating, and reading what goes on here. If for no other reason than.... it's their job! So, much as I can see your frustration here, if you're going to have an attitude like that, I'd be surprised if your account lasts much longer - even considering how laid back the mods are around here.
Now, a bit of advice, and I say this with all the respect and friendliness in the world:
Chill out. We're all friends here, and just because someone doesn't like your ideas, or - heaven forbid - comes off as a bug ugly jerk face, the best thing to do is play it cool and let it go, we're all here to enjoy the game and the community. Sometimes it's just not worth stepping up to the perceived threat/challenge/insult. Really.
And speaking as an (ex) forum moderator: Lipping off at the mods is a bad idea. Trust me.
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And by the way, who was immature enough to report this thread to the admins, where they swooped in with tyrannical assumptions to ban?
Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.
This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.
Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.
+1
I was genuinely shocked to see name calling on this board, even if it was meant to be in jest (complete with emoticons) or simply to make a point. I've seen a huge degree of maturity here in and out of arguments, disagreements, banter, and heated opinions.
So getting back to the topic. Doom, it looks like you've mostly made up your mind on how you are going to handle this with your players. Did you have other options that you were weighing? Have you had a chance to talk about your ruling with the players yet? If so, what was their reaction?
Edit: and I really like Voydangel's idea of describing security in painstaking detail. If they have something illegal on them, it should be apparent that they would have to let you know. Otherwise, as he suggested, they left it at home.
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First, I would like to say that Critias had the testicular fortitude to apologize for his remarks and I respect that a great deal.
Lets recap,
Major Doom calls Critias a derogatory name is warned about that. When next we see Major Doom he once more uses that same derogatory name and then seems to dare the moderators (Hey mod, oops I did it again ;D) to take action.
Major Doom asks, “Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?”
Yet if we go back we see Major Doom’s initial response to his warning, “Yeah awesome moderation here buddy. Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.”
I don’t see your question about our handling of the situation. What I do see is less than polite and a statement aimed at being provocative.
As in your game we have rules, the rules are stated up front and clearly. You have been warned…twice. This is not a single individual’s sandbox, we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere. For those people who are able to abide by the rules we welcome them and hope that they have a great time here. For those who cannot follow the rules we can and will remove them for the sake of the community.
It is my sincere hope that everyone will abide by the rules.
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Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.
This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.
Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.
I finding the timing of the admin showing up, exploiting my comment, and threatening to ban me, suspicious of a report. Just an observation that seems more plausible than idle surfing.
But I find it ironic there is no boundary for keeping other members from judging another members' house rules, quite harshly (subjective term I may admit) and not the least emotionally charged counterpoint.
Also, I would like to note that Critias' assessment of your ideas to add in new rules and restrictions and whatnot about lists of gear and other various things is fairly right on. He may not have said it in the nicest way, but I think what he was trying to get at was that there's a deeper issue here that needs to be resolved, and by adding new house rules into the mix, the only thing that will happen is more paperwork and more work on your end of the table, or perhaps the players resentment will rise, etc. None of which are going to help the problem or the gaming group.
I started this thread with a question looking for other options due to my situation of my players handling gear. Some people early gave their insight, I thank you, some decided to judge my ruling quite voraciously, adding a psychological spin, stating that I have a deep underlying issue with my gaming group over one house rule. That's a very subjective assessment that doesn't qualify a judgement. What may not work for one person (or group) doesn't mean it may not work for another.
Personally, I think we have a really good, relaxed and pretty chill forum here, and the Mods are doing an excellent job. I doubt that anyone bothered to push the "report" button, and more likely than not, one of the mods was just surfing the forum and read your post because - believe it or not - the mods here are gamers like us, and are interested in contributing, participating, and reading what goes on here. If for no other reason than.... it's their job! So, much as I can see your frustration here, if you're going to have an attitude like that, I'd be surprised if your account lasts much longer - even considering how laid back the mods are around here.
Now, a bit of advice, and I say this with all the respect and friendliness in the world:
Chill out. We're all friends here, and just because someone doesn't like your ideas, or - heaven forbid - comes off as a bug ugly jerk face, the best thing to do is play it cool and let it go, we're all here to enjoy the game and the community. Sometimes it's just not worth stepping up to the perceived threat/challenge/insult. Really.
At this point, I think it's a mixed bag. Some good people who'll want to assist, and some pretty judgemental people. Granted Critias may have had the best of intentions to express that my house rule isn't something he would do, but it didn't come out at as that. Then Max was right behind with a follow up to stoke the fires. That doesn't seem friendly and chill to me. But I'm the bad guy because I didn't want to be cowed.
And speaking as an (ex) forum moderator: Lipping off at the mods is a bad idea. Trust me.
To me this sounds like you are confirming my statement that questioning the way an admin handles a situation is forbidden because you'll just get banned. You said we're all friends and happy people, but an admin going out of his/her way, exploit one comment, and threaten judgement isn't conducive to a forum. And since you ended that statement with to trust you, I'm sure you doled out bans quite liberally and without much cause either.
So getting back to the topic. Doom, it looks like you've mostly made up your mind on how you are going to handle this with your players. Did you have other options that you were weighing? Have you had a chance to talk about your ruling with the players yet? If so, what was their reaction?
I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but yes I am weighing other options because it's why I started the thread. If I didn't care for any other options, I wouldn't have asked. Sorry if I'm sounding curt, but this is getting ridiculous.
Major Doom asks, “Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?”
Yet if we go back we see Major Doom’s initial response to his warning, “Yeah awesome moderation here buddy. Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.”
I don’t see your question about our handling of the situation. What I do see is less than polite and a statement aimed at being provocative.
I'm not surprised you don't see it any other way. Instead of an admin remaining neutral, the admin exploited my statement only. I'll admit my response was not polite, it was definitely not unwarranted.
As in your game we have rules, the rules are stated up front and clearly. You have been warned…twice. This is not a single individual’s sandbox, we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere. For those people who are able to abide by the rules we welcome them and hope that they have a great time here. For those who cannot follow the rules we can and will remove them for the sake of the community.
This one is a gem. I'm going to take a page from the admins' book and exploit a statement here: "we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere". I began this thread with a question seeking additional ideas, and I didn't get FRIENDLY advice from some members. Maybe if the admins take a moment to refrain from firing off threats of banning, and observe that except for my two instances of an impolite comment, I've been pretty objective, friendly, and non-threatening. So tell me, where is this FRIENDLY atmosphere where a member can't post a question without getting judged on a SINGLE house rule?
Regardless folks, I'm the bad guy and many probably want blood (hence at this writing I have a -11 to my rep). So admins just get it over with and ban me.
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Okay, Major, let's go over where this thread went wrong.
Yes, you asked for people's advice on handling equipment and encumbrance in Shadowrun, and you got a page of responses before it turned into the argument it did.
It began when Bradd commented that since you didn't care about your player's opinion on the house rule. Your response to that was that you were dealing with "petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players". Then Critias joined in with his opinion that if you viewed the players that way and enacted house rules without their input, then the situation would probably worsen.
Now, Critias' response could have been more politely written, but he's not one to pull his punches either. Overall, I think it was overreaction on "key words" of both of you posts that degenerated this into a name-calling diatribe. Each of you were focusing on those few words as personal insults and escalated with direct insults instead of perceived insults.
For instance, you took his calling your rule of "if it's on the sheet, you're carrying it" as "pretty ridiculous" as a personal insult. He could have worded it better, but he was giving his opinion on your ruling AND he gave you an alternative to the rule of having the players make two lists of "everyday" gear and "firefight" gear. You focused on the negative to your rule instead of the help he offered. This, in turn, ticked Critias off because he gave you advice and then you called him an ass for doing so. From all the posts I read of Critias, I can say that his heart's in the right place and he's only trying to ensure everyone is having fun playing the game. And, from what you've said of your group, it sounds like you're not having fun (and possibly your players as well).
Now, as far as the "smiting" of your account, I can't answer why people have done so, but it's most likely because of the tone of your posts and the spiraling down you've gone through since the mods gotten involved. Yes, some of your comments stood out because you were personally attacking another member, but Critias tried to break it off, understanding that his comments/opinions weren't welcome (again, he might have been able to word it differently). Unfortunately, you began to feel persecuted by others since the mods got involved. Instead of taking a deep breath, trying to see if you could've responded differently or if it may have been over-reaction to perceived sleights, you took on the roll that everyone was against you. And you're still doing it.
When the mods first came in with a warning, the first post was from Critias saying that a ban was not needed. The entire incident is nothing more than a disagreement that got blown way out of proportion. And, considering it's the first time it's happened on the forums, I'd say that no bans should be needed since we got to see where the "line is drawn" and now know where not to go.
There is no reason to ban you. There is no reason you can't contribute and have fun here like everyone else. If you feel that you still want to be a part of the forums, join in on other discussions. Add to the conversations, and try not to take anything personally. Remember, you can't write the tone of your voice when typing on a forum and you shouldn't imply a tone to things you read. It's the internet, man, if you get ticked off at every perceived slight from what you read, you're going to spend a long time angry. Only get angry at the direct insults.
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Leave it to Fastjack to cover all of the bases very well. ;D
For myself, I don’t “want blood” and would be perfectly happy if everyone takes a deep breath and move on from this.
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For instance, you took his calling your rule of "if it's on the sheet, you're carrying it" as "pretty ridiculous" as a personal insult. He could have worded it better, but he was giving his opinion on your ruling AND he gave you an alternative to the rule of having the players make two lists of "everyday" gear and "firefight" gear. You focused on the negative to your rule instead of the help he offered. This, in turn, ticked Critias off because he gave you advice and then you called him an ass for doing so. From all the posts I read of Critias, I can say that his heart's in the right place and he's only trying to ensure everyone is having fun playing the game. And, from what you've said of your group, it sounds like you're not having fun (and possibly your players as well).
For the record, my first post had stated that I tried the "everyday" gear and "firefight gear in the past, with little effect since the players refused to manage their gear.
Now, as far as the "smiting" of your account, I can't answer why people have done so, but it's most likely because of the tone of your posts and the spiraling down you've gone through since the mods gotten involved. Yes, some of your comments stood out because you were personally attacking another member, but Critias tried to break it off, understanding that his comments/opinions weren't welcome (again, he might have been able to word it differently). Unfortunately, you began to feel persecuted by others since the mods got involved. Instead of taking a deep breath, trying to see if you could've responded differently or if it may have been over-reaction to perceived sleights, you took on the roll that everyone was against you. And you're still doing it.
Aside from pointing out Critias' ignorance in the matter, I was not antagonistic toward anyone. Now before anyone cries foul, my provocative response to the admins was based on my opinion that they were not being neutral, along with threatening to ban me without taking the thread into context, I felt I had a right to respond equally in tone.
I never said everyone was against me, but honestly speaking, many probably decided to target me since my single house rule was absurd and defended it as objectively as possible.
When the mods first came in with a warning, the first post was from Critias saying that a ban was not needed. The entire incident is nothing more than a disagreement that got blown way out of proportion. And, considering it's the first time it's happened on the forums, I'd say that no bans should be needed since we got to see where the "line is drawn" and now know where not to go.
Ban not being needed maybe your and Critias opinion, but admins' opinions say otherwise.
There is no reason to ban you. There is no reason you can't contribute and have fun here like everyone else. If you feel that you still want to be a part of the forums, join in on other discussions. Add to the conversations, and try not to take anything personally. Remember, you can't write the tone of your voice when typing on a forum and you shouldn't imply a tone to things you read. It's the internet, man, if you get ticked off at every perceived slight from what you read, you're going to spend a long time angry. Only get angry at the direct insults.
Um I didn't get ticked off at every perceived slight, I got ticked off at only one. Aside from that, I've been pretty diplomatic in the rest of my responses. Now if my tone is interpreted as being aggressive, I can't help that.
Funny thing you mention contribution, because now I feel I have to walk on egg shells with members here, since my negative reputation keeps increasing, I get judged on ONE house rule, admins wanting to slam the ban hammer on me, and all I wanted was some ideas. Yeah thanks, I feel all warm and fuzzy from the amiable reception.
Leave it to Fastjack to cover all of the bases very well. ;D
For myself, I don’t “want blood” and would be perfectly happy if everyone takes a deep breath and move on from this.
Seriously just follow through with banning me and get it over with. If it helps, just think of removing a band-aid, just do it quick in one fell swoop.
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You're right. You did mention the two-list rule was tried in another game to no success. As for the Admins being neutral, I have to disagree. They warned you because you broke rules #1 and #2 of the ToS (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=12.0), after that, they warned both you and Critias for breaking rule #1. It may seem that it wasn't neutral because Critias is a Freelancer and knows the mods but, as I pointed out before, he wasn't attacking you personally, he was debating your position on the matter (again, he might have done so it better language).
If they really were being unfair, they would have banned without a warning, which is within their expressed rights to do so per the ToS. Also, they could have banned both you and Critias for five days per the ToS, but instead they passed out warnings. I'm not sure why you're asking to be banned at this point, but I don't think it's going to happen unless you seriously fly off the handle. If you feel so strongly that you're not welcome here, you don't have to come back. But I hope you do stick around since it's better around here with people with many different backgrounds and ideas (besides, how can I NOT like a fellow Big Trouble fan? ;)).
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If they really are that uncooperative start having them nailed. People are going to take their pictures put them on the web, and call the police when they see someone running around downtown Seattle with an assault cannon slung over their shoulder. Drop a cow or two on them from space.
I'm going to agree it seems you have an issue between you and your group. Explain to them you are not happy with the direction the game is going and what you would like to see. If they still refuse to put in the effort you would like, and honestly it's not alot it will take all of maybe 5 minutes to come up with the gear lists, start putting in the same amount of effort into telling the story.
People might think that's harsh and I agree, yes it is, however it's unfair to Major Doom that he's putting in the work to make the world go round and the players don't even seem to care about their characters or working with him.
Edit- I'm guessing these are your friends you are playing with so try not to ruin things.
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Drop a cow or two on them from space.
In our party we use Hippos... you know for a different flavor! ;D
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I appreciate the responses from both sides of the story here, however, In a not-very-subtle attempt to get back on track....
@Major Doom: Ignoring all my comments about the thread drama - what are your thoughts/gut reactions on the suggestions I made in my post? (You seemed to overlook them, or at least, didn't comment on them.)
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Doom, I've tried to bow out of this thread a couple of times now, but you just keep going, you just keep talking about me, and you just keep making it pretty difficult to want to stay quiet. I apologize -- again -- that my comments were taken like they were. I'm sorry that you don't like my thoughts or how I expressed them on your house rule, and I'm sorry that you don't like my thoughts or how I expressed them on the atmosphere of your game table, which brought that house rule into play. You're obviously free to run your game however you want to, and if it works for you and yours, terrific. I don't know your gaming group, I don't know how sternly you need to hold the metaphorical leash to keep a game going, so I'll just say -- again -- that I hope you and your players work out whatever issues you may or may not have, and can keep slinging dice and having fun.
I'll ask you to kindly do two things, however.
First, consider that I've received a warning for this thread as well, and I didn't call anyone an ignorant ass (twice), nor have I been sarcastically calling your Dr. Freud, etc. You're not some oppressed minority, here, innocent of all wrongdoing and being ganged up on by the powers that be. You might consider the moderators taking objection to you calling me an ignorant ass (twice) as some sort of "exploit" of "just two words" from a post, but considering that you've obviously taken offense at my comments over what could no doubt, similarly, be boiled down to "just two words" of a post, perhaps you should reconsider your indignation. "Just two words" can hold an awful lot of insult and vitriol, after all.
Second, consider that, as a general rule for making it through life, it's best to know the appropriate time and place to argue with someone in a position of authority (regardless of how genuinely authoritative they are, what nature of authority they hold, or whether or not you respect that authority). Just like the side of the road with traffic whizzing past a grouchy highway patrolman isn't the place to argue a ticket, you may be well served in the future by not arguing a moderator warning right there, in the public thread you just got warned in.
As someone who's been both a forum moderator, and a forum moderatee (for lack of a better term) for quite a while, I can assure you that you'll never increase their opinion of you, never improve their attitude toward you, and never appear to be more reasonable by arguing with a mod in public. Getting more and more defensive and hostile towards a moderator becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy; if you insist they're being jack-booted thugs long enough and loud enough, and dare them to ban you shrilly enough, eventually you're likely to be proven right, and to no one's detriment but your own. Purely as someone who's had his fair share of interactions with moderators, and as someone who -- please recall -- initially, in fact, told the moderators I didn't feel their intervention was required in this thread...your best bet is probably going to be forwarding any more questions, concerns, challenges, or criticisms their way in private.
As a general rule, no one likes their authority being challenged in public. You obviously take offense to it when the players in your game don't agree with you -- particularly in the middle of the game, right? -- so you would likely be well served to remember that the mods aren't likely to enjoy it when forum posters disagree with them in public, either. Just like most RPG sessions would run more smoothly if minor rules quibbles and GM interpretation disagreements were handled at the end of a session instead of in the midst of clattering dice, any given forum is more likely to run smoothly, and keep everyone relatively happy, when moderation disputes are handled in private and after tempers have cooled.
And with that, I'd like to once again bow out. I'm not sure what, if anything, I've said in this thread that you'll choose to take further offense to, but if you do (despite my efforts to be pretty bland in this post), I'd appreciate it if you PMed me about it instead of further derailing this thread. I want to see your game straightened out, and that won't happen if this little dispute between us remains the central point of this thread.
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But it's the minor rule quibbles that always derail a game in mid stride. The big ones normally raise their head before gaming because they are so glaring.
It's that sliver in your foot kinda rule that get's us hopping mad mid game.
As a veteran gamer both as a player and GM I have learned that in the end, THE GM IS RIGHT. It is his/her game, her/his rules. If as a player I don't like those rule I have the right to leave!
As a former Commando running games, I was told that as the GM my word was law at the table, if the rule was unclear My ruling was final, its like that for ANY GM. Players don't have to agree with the rule but they need to follow it. I have known DMs who made their players "Cast" their spells. So at the table if a mage cast magic missile the play had to recite verbale and make somatic jestures. In this case the player recited "Whirl, Click, Bang bang bang." while making gun finger motions. Me I decided I wouldn't play a mage at that table! :D
So therefore if Doom wants gear lists for in and out of combat at his table, the players either make the lists or choose to game elsewhwere. The players don't get to tell teh GM how to run his/her game. Suggest, neogotiate, beg, but in the end the GM runs the show. GMs are the directors players the actors.
Remember I am the GM who nuked his players into dust because they couldn't stop running a Wall of Gauss! That was how I had to handle the situation.
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Back to the original question: To fix your problem, you'll need to know why your players are sloppy about gear managment. Depending on their reasons, some fixes will work great, and others will just cause more friction in your group.
It could be that your players simply hate bookkeeping and gear management. In this case, leaning on the rules will foster resentment. Instead, it's better to take a flexible approach to gear. Leave things fuzzy from the players' point of view, assuming that the characters know best how to manage their gear. Don't worry about any specific piece of gear until it becomes important to the game. At that point, the player has to decide whether they're carrying or not. Want to use a particular gun? OK, but now you need to deal with the consequences of carrying it. Want to protect an item from a pickpocket or search? OK, you can say that you left it at home, but now you can't use it. In short, it doesn't matter whether you're carrying something until you need to know, and then you can decide on the spot. This method is especially good for handling Batman-type characters.
It could be that your players hate, hate, hate having their gear taken away. The players probably aren't being lazy so much as just desperately trying to protect their gear from harm. You can handle this the same as the low-bookkeeping approach above, but it's probably even better to simply stop going after the gear. The players won't be so pathological if they aren't afraid. The tricky thing here is deciding whether to tell the players that you're going easy on them. On the one hand, it will help them relax and trust you. On the other hand, it can interfere with the game's mood if you're aiming for distrust and paranoia. Frankly, I would recommend strongly against distrust themes in-character unless your players trust you fully out-of-character. This requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, but I think that's better than hostility.
It could be that your players aren't particularly touchy about anything, but simply want to beat the system. They're "cheating" to get what they need without suffering consequences. This is the one case where I think it's actually reasonable to lay down the law. Your old WoD rule is great for this, just enforce it. When the PCs head out, ask them whether they all have a list of "ready" gear. If not, stop the game while they deal with it. This could lead to an in-character planning scene, which is cool. You might also get the benefit of peer pressure from the players who do stay on top of gear management. Eventually it should be second-nature to keep stuff organized.
Things get trickier if your players are a mix of these types. If you're not sure, it might be safest to use the first solution, and just downplay gear management entirely. That's not ideal for the players who are trying to game the system, as they actually like the challenge of getting crap past the radar (in character or out), but it shouldn't actually irritate them. In contrast, if you get draconian with folks who hate bookkeeping, they're going to get pathological on you and start gaming the system too.
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I still think that the third option is the best and easiest.
Just use the old rule of gear lists and this time actually enforce it.
Either you the GM have a list of what gear every PC is carrying at this moment or the game stops until you do.
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There are player types who get massively annoyed by that, however. It gets really bad when you mix up, say, a player who hates bookkeeping with a player who hates game delays.
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I still think that the third option is the best and easiest.
Just use the old rule of gear lists and this time actually enforce it.
Either you the GM have a list of what gear every PC is carrying at this moment or the game stops until you do.
Somewhat related to this, back at the tail end of SRI, a friend, who eventually became a graphic designer, converted a deck of playing cards into his "gear list" (they call them ATCs, Art Trading Cards, these days) along with a "master list" on a character sheet (and eventually, a spare sheet of paper). Each card was recovered and the surface used to write down the item and all the data on it. When he could get a picture (mind you it wasn't as easy as looking for it on the internet back then) he included one, sometimes redraws sometimes photocopies from the books he painted over and so on and the occasional original art for stuff without images he could easily find and use. At the start of a run, he'd go through his cards, select his gear and then drop the others back in the box. If he swapped gear out he'd switch cards. Eventually, he got into Magic: The Gathering (AKA Crack For Gamers) and started using the rather simplistic "card boxes" they had labeling each as "Self," "Home," "Safehouse A," "Car" and so on.
I liked the idea and started doing something similar with large Index Cards split in half (though FAR less artistically). Over the years I've told people about this and seen a few variants. For instance, in one of my current groups, one person prints off the pre-made business cards with her gear items, images of the gear and so on on a fairly regular basis.
While the "up-front' effort was fairly significant, the long run reduction in bookkeeping is staggering. You always know what you have where and what can and cannot be used. Simple paperclips keep everything organized during and between sessions and as a game goes on and gear begins to pile up it's easier to keep track of what you have. In the group with the person using the business cards, they're beginning to ALL do it and starting to trade cards for the same gear around.
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I've seen and used similar concepts to the gear card deck idea. It does work tremendously well. The only downside is all the work you have to front load to make it happen. I would kill to have someone make a commercial version of these cards for sale. Could be made like magic cards, with a pic, stats in the lower half text box, name in the upper left, dmg, recoil and AP in the various locations. Nearly an exact copy of magic cards. I'd buy them for sure. Hmm... if I can find time in between looking for a job and my overloaded college classes, maybe I'll dust off my old graphic designer skills and try to design a few. Anyone know a cheap and relatively easy online source for printing custom card sets on demand? Preferably one that has decent quality...
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I don't but I should look. Actualy, I remember a Vampire game where we used the Vampire CCG cards to keep track of gear and boons. Pretty much any LARP uses the same concept. Each card has its game stats on it. Any card on you is on you. For a tabletop game you can keep your other stuff in a notecard holder or something. As for actually printing them, I imagine its just as easy to use your printer. Maybe print four on a 3x5 card and cut them down. It seems to me to be less front loading for the players but way more for the GM. Index cards have always sufficed for me.
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I've seen and used similar concepts to the gear card deck idea. It does work tremendously well. The only downside is all the work you have to front load to make it happen. I would kill to have someone make a commercial version of these cards for sale. Could be made like magic cards, with a pic, stats in the lower half text box, name in the upper left, dmg, recoil and AP in the various locations. Nearly an exact copy of magic cards. I'd buy them for sure. Hmm... if I can find time in between looking for a job and my overloaded college classes, maybe I'll dust off my old graphic designer skills and try to design a few. Anyone know a cheap and relatively easy online source for printing custom card sets on demand? Preferably one that has decent quality...
While we've digressed a bit, this sort of thing would be perfect for am official "free" web release or even the SR PDF line.
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Gear cards? That's a cool idea. this way you don't have to keep erasing/reprinting your list. To bad it's not a sure sale item. I'd have loved to have had something like that during my decades of gaming!
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Aren't PACKS basically gear cards/sets? Haven't paid too much attention to them but that's what they struck me as.
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Never heard of those either. Cept the ones I wore in the Corps.
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Gear cards? That's a cool idea. this way you don't have to keep erasing/reprinting your list. To bad it's not a sure sale item. I'd have loved to have had something like that during my decades of gaming!
Oh, I'd say they sell pretty well... (http://paizo.com/gameMastery/itemPacks)
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Gear cards? That's a cool idea. this way you don't have to keep erasing/reprinting your list. To bad it's not a sure sale item. I'd have loved to have had something like that during my decades of gaming!
I'm not entirely convinced it wouldn't be a "sure sale" item for Shadowrun. I know that every group I've been in as a player and done it with split index cards at least half the group followed suit in some way, usually far more artistically since I can't even draw a stick figure properly. The down side to an "official" product would be expanding official gear lists. Every new book with new stuff would require an "expansion pack" to be made and that could consume time and resources lagging book production especially if they got into a "cards release when the books are" mindset, which would be ideal. As a Free Web Release or a low cost PDF it would be easier, since they could just create the artwork and text putting a really low price on them and letting people DL and print what they wanted when they wanted but it would still burn resources usually dedicated to books.
For some reason people seem to like not just that idea, but also the NERPS cards that were handed out at a con some time ago. I got my hands on a set from a gamer buddy who gave up the hobby when their first kid came along and have used them a few times, always with good success. They have been so popular in some groups that we've gone so far as to make about two dozen more of them for both 3rd and 4th edition (so something like 48 cards in two sets plus the original 12) based on people's suggestions and "revamped" the originals for 3rd Edition play (only had to tinker with the text on one or two cards).
These two have always struck me as a "missed opportunity" for the PDF line.
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Sorry I meant that the cards could sell like mad or never sell at all. I think you have a darn good idea how to implement it too! ;)
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Aren't PACKS basically gear cards/sets? Haven't paid too much attention to them but that's what they struck me as.
Not exactly cards, no. They're sets of gear, yes, but it's more like a pre-packaged bundle of goodies to speed up character creation/gear selection.
I'd love to give a nice specific example for Shadowrun, but I don't know how specific Jason (and more importantly the NDA) would let me be. I'll switch genres and game systems completely to do it, and maybe that'll keep me in the clear. ;)
Imagine if D&D had a "Sword and Board Fighter" gear set, it might list a single total GP cost, and in just buying that one PACK he'd get a nice longsword, a well-balanced shield, some chainmail, a helmet, a whetstone, first aid kit, and a dagger. He could then go pick out the "Basic Adventurer" PACK to get the rest of his work-a-day starting gear (backpack, three torches, 100 ft of rope, ten pitons, a week's worth of rations, flint and steel, two first aid kits, compass) and voila...he'd be pretty much done with buying all his gear, right? Maybe there's a little overlap (like the Basic Adventurer kit giving everyone some first aid, but also a front-line combat PACK like Sword and Board Fighter giving extra first aid kits), but for the most part it's greatly simplified the gear selection process.
And, meanwhile, the party's Ranger, Cleric, or whoever, would also be speeding up their basic gear selection because they wouldn't mind the "Basic Adventurer" PACK, themselves. No one's got to flip through the equipment section of the book and scribble down every single copper piece they spend to make sure that they've got the basic covered. Instead of counting out how many sheets of parchment, reading candles, quills, and jars of ink he's buying, no doubt the party Wizard could pick up a "Scholastic Spellcaster" set, to give him a big sack full of spellbook junk and writing material and stuff.
That's more or less the basic principle we were working towards. Take a core character idea or background idea or some other three or four word descriptor of a character, and equip 'em. Bam, just like that, it makes it a two-or-three-step selection process to equip a character instead of a thirty-seven, 'cause you buy a couple big PACKs of gear and call it a day.
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Pretty interesting, can't wait to see how it works out, gear selection is one of the most tedious parts of the creation process. I just don't know how well it would work in Shadowrun with it's classless system and all that gear/ware you can choose from.
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Pretty interesting, can't wait to see how it works out, gear selection is one of the most tedious parts of the creation process. I just don't know how well it would work in Shadowrun with it's classless system and all that gear/ware you can choose from.
Which was, trust me, one of the hardest parts of working on it. Rather than a truly exhaustive list of every possible PACK, we're out to hit the broad strokes, and just make things go a little quicker for most characters.
And -- on the bright side -- it's the sort of thing that it's easy to add to, later on, with cheap little pdfs and that sort of thing.
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Gear cards? That's a cool idea. this way you don't have to keep erasing/reprinting your list. To bad it's not a sure sale item. I'd have loved to have had something like that during my decades of gaming!
Oh, I'd say they sell pretty well... (http://paizo.com/gameMastery/itemPacks)
Yea, too bad they don't come out with a few Shadowrun "decks".
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I know this is a bit of thread necromancy, but I just stumbled upon the lack of listed weights (mass) + RAW encumberance rule and was baffled.
Another handy tool would be some sort of metatype + attribute matrix to determine character mass.
Back in my second edition days we had to casually hit one of our powergamers with Light Stun Wounds for encumberance. 1 Strength Physical Adept with a monofilament whip and a Panther Assault Cannon in Security Armor. If we let that stand we would be fools.
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Carrying Capacity
Characters can lift and carry their Strength x 10 kilograms in weight without any sort of test—this is your carrying capacity. Lifting and carrying more calls for a Strength + Body Test. Each hit increases the weight you can lift by another 10 kilograms.
Encumbrance
If a character overburdens herself with gear, she will suffer encumbrance modifiers. For every 5 kilograms that you exceed your carrying capacity, you suffer a –1 dice pool modifier to physical actions. A character with Strength 3 (Carrying Capacity 30) that is trudging along with 50 kilograms of equipment will suffer a –4 dice pool modifier. The maximum any character can carry is equal to her Carrying Capacity x 2 (or Strength x 20 kilograms).
Your typical "Heavy" pistol can weigh from 1 kg to 2 kg.
Assault Rifles are usually weight in between 2.5 to 5 kg.
Kevlar vests come in around 3 to 6 kg.
That should give you some basic ideas of how much gear could weigh.
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The "what gear when?" question always seemed to be chicanery to me. At first I tried asking what gear everyone was taking when they left and assumed they were still carrying it until otherwise stated or situations changed. Then we used causal gear and combat gear with all sorts of variations in between. Some of the players preferred index cards for gear, spells, and whatnot and the others preferred notations. I got use to what meant what with each character and they notified me before hand when it changed. I opted for flow over details, but the players still found ways to argue about it.
Some fun ad lib adventures came about from it, like when the troll sammie and his buddies were bristling with weapons and walked to a mini mart to get some disposable clothes from the vending machine and ended up bumping into a cop buying some tasty treats. Long story short it turned into block warfare involving the heat and a local gang vs the players... They were definitely fighting for their lives that game with nothing to show for the ammunition spent, damaged gear, faltering rep, and the expensive trip to the street doc (they learned quickly not to have a repeat).
As the group got larger I started giving out jobs to responsible players based on personality, mind you I had an active group of 12+ players and we played 2x a week for nearly a decade... Sometimes I sweetened the deal for their characters with karma/opportunities, because they usually filled a similar or related role in game.
The Book Keeper (organizer) - Kept track of party loot and who had what/where/etc. They were also the go-to person for recording info correctly.
The Banker (calculator) - Divvied the money out, also helped the less math savvy players.
The Cartographer (artist) - Kept track of routes players were taking, and also were in charge of combat maps, aka the grid master, for the players end of the equation.
The Minutes (details) - Kept track of significant events, important people, and anything else the players thought were important.
The experienced players were in charge of taking the new players under their wings, sometimes it ended up in an almost sergeant to private relationship.
I gave out other jobs as players were interested. It all depended on the size and experience of the group at any given time. This method made our games a lot more organized and it made juggling that many players at once A LOT EASIER! I think flow of the story is the most important factor and whatever it takes to keep it fun and interesting. It took some planning at first, but once everything was in motion I didn't have to do more than touch bases with the peoples with responsibilities for updates, questions, and on the direction the players wanted to take.