Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Mad Hamish on <01-04-13/1938:37>
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I'm not sure what the impact of a cyberfoot is on attributes
" The attributes of partial
limbs (including cyberhands and -feet) may be enhanced, but their
attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a
Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)."
So it looks like it shouldn't have any impact on damage resistance tests or general tests (it's hard to see what tests a cyberfoot is relevant to)
but I'm not sure if I'm reading it right
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Yes, that's correct. The attributes would matter for the highly critical Wiggle Toes tests, and I guess someone could make a Called Shot to your foot.
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If a helmet is always relevant when you've been shot, I don't see why a cyberfoot wouldn't be.
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If a helmet is always relevant when you've been shot, I don't see why a cyberfoot wouldn't be.
Abstraction of armour doesn't really have any relation to limb involvement.
Foot would be involved with kicking with that leg, running, jumping, and similar things. Never exclusively involved, though.
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Well, the Armor Enhancement on your cyberfoot always helps. But the Body on it only does for called shots. Because shadowrun is consistent like that.
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Because shadowrun is consistent like that.
8)
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What would a called shot have to do with the foot?
I don't understand why some people think a called shot means saying "I aim at his foot." You can call a shot to bypass armor, subtracting their armor from your attack DP. You can call a shot at a vital area, choosing a penalty to your DP for a bonus to your DV. You can try to knock something out of their grasp. You can try to shoot for an effect, like temporary blindness/blow out a tire/etc. It doesn't say anything about picking an extremity and ignoring the armor rating of the whole body, unless there's an errata someplace that rewrote called shot.
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What would a called shot have to do with the foot?
I don't understand why some people think a called shot means saying "I aim at his foot." You can call a shot to bypass armor, subtracting their armor from your attack DP. You can call a shot at a vital area, choosing a penalty to your DP for a bonus to your DV. You can try to knock something out of their grasp. You can try to shoot for an effect, like temporary blindness/blow out a tire/etc. It doesn't say anything about picking an extremity and ignoring the armor rating of the whole body, unless there's an errata someplace that rewrote called shot.
Its probably a leftover thought from SR3 when I believe the called shots actually did aim at a specific location, or was that 2?
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No, the point is that if you make a called shot to the foot, you would use the Body rating of the foot (but you'd still use overall armor, because...yeah). Similarly, if you, say, stepped on a caltrop, you'd use the Body rating of the foot. You follow?
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That would be fine, except it doesn't say anywhere in calling a shot that you can target a specific area... It just says you can try for less armored, more vital, or special effects. There is no headshot or footshot mechanics that I've found in any of the books yet.
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"Hitting the foot" would be part of the "special effects." I'm not sure why you'd shoot someone in the foot, but I could see, say, shooting someone in the hand to make them drop a weapon.
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Look in augmentation... they even give an example for why repair of the cyberware would be necessary.
One of the examples is called shot to disable the cyberware.
So yeah if they know you have a cyberfoot and it's weak... they might target it. It falls under the special case catchall for the GM to make stuff up as he sees fit and set the difficulty accordingly. Or the runner might simply tell the GM... I'm making a called shot to wound him in the leg so he can't run away... the GM debates if this is a reasonable option then tells the player the dice pool penalty... and adjudicates the effect.
But yeah... half-limbs are great if you want them for some capacity... but don't want to have to deal with customized attributes to bring them up to match the rest of you.
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Oooooooooooh... awesome, thanks for explaining that, people. I didn't realize the special effects category was so all-encompassing. So if you shot someone in the cyberfoot as an attempt to disable the foot, would they still take damage? What kinds of modifiers would be involved in trying to hit something as small and usually mobile as a foot? What would the effects of a shutdown cyberfoot even be? You can't walk? seems unlikely, it'd just slow you down some.
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Oooooooooooh... awesome, thanks for explaining that, people. I didn't realize the special effects category was so all-encompassing. So if you shot someone in the cyberfoot as an attempt to disable the foot, would they still take damage? What kinds of modifiers would be involved in trying to hit something as small and usually mobile as a foot? What would the effects of a shutdown cyberfoot even be? You can't walk? seems unlikely, it'd just slow you down some.
1) I'd say yes, since it's part of their body that's taking damge.
2) -3 or so, I'd imagine. It's not quite as hard as shooting an eyeball, but, it's still not an easy target.
3) I'd say almost completely immobilizing, for the purposes of combat. It's really hard to walk with 15-20 pounds(that's being conservative) of dead chrome on your leg, let alone the outright pain and such of walking on an ankle. Atop all that, it doesn't just turn 'off.' A called shot to the foot would likely mangle it to Hell and back, tear it apart, and leave you dragging a whole bunch of pneumatic components and wires about. In the absolute least, I'd impose a -4 penalty on tests requiring the wounded foot or -2 and call a balance check on the player every time they did something. Getting 'shot in the foot' is still pretty damn lethal.
That said, I also run pretty lethal games.
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That's entirely up to the GM... since it is a cybernetic system (includes meat and metal interface parts...) I'd say the victim should take some damage. I'd use the rigger rules for biofeedback damage as the basis... since they're intentionally aiming to hurt the
Here's how I'd probably adjudicate... I'd set the difficulty accordingly... probalby -2 for a full limb, -4 half hlimb, -6 hand/foot... (maybe toss in a little extra for bypassing armor if appropriate). Then have them roll the attack normally. If they hit... I'd roll damage using only the cyberlimb body + installed armor on that limb + worn armor if appropriate.
I'd hit the cyberlimb for full physical damage (it would have body boxes at 8 + half body just like a drone plus an overflow == to it's body). If they do enough damage to put the limb to overflow it's disabled and nonfunctional until repaired... if it goes over overflow it's broken probably beyond repair... then some edge/Gm discretion to figure out if the implants in the limb's capacity are salvageable.
Then I'd use the rules for riggers feedback rules as a template... The cybered guy would take stun damage equal to half the damage the limb took resisted with willpower (biofeedback filter really isn't apt to this since it's directly wired to his nervous system).
That might be a little overcomplicated... but if you know all the rules fairly well like i do.. it actully adjudicates fairly quickly. It's largely a question of familiarity. An example will play this out...
Gun adept Joe... is trying to disable a hacker with a shotgun to capture him alive... the hacker has a customized full limb with tweaked agility (so he can dump stat his natural agility and rely on the 9 agility of the arm to fight back effectively, while stuffing a commlink and other 'ware into it's capacity for cheap essence). He makes a called shot to the arm... since the hacker is wearing an armor vest.. I declare it'll be an attack at -8 (-2 for the arm... -6 more for bypassing the vest).
Joe fires and hits with 4 net successes... his shotgun is 7P ap-1... the limb is body 3... with 2 points of cyberlimb armor... so rolls 4 dice to resist... gets 1 success. 11 damage soaked down to 10. This is perfect... the limb has 10 out of 10 boxes knocked out... and is disabled. If 3 more damage is done it'd be trashed as the overflow would be wiped out. The hacker now suffers half this damage as feedback stun damage resisted with willpower alone... so 10/2== 5stun... hacker rolls his 5 willpower and takes 3stun...
The hacker is now effectively 'disarmed' literally and figuratively and becomes far more tractible with nowhere to run and unable to fight.
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2) -3 or so, I'd imagine. It's not quite as hard as shooting an eyeball, but, it's still not an easy target.
3) I'd say almost completely immobilizing, for the purposes of combat. It's really hard to walk with 15-20 pounds(that's being conservative) of dead chrome on your leg, let alone the outright pain and such of walking on an ankle. Atop all that, it doesn't just turn 'off.' A called shot to the foot would likely mangle it to Hell and back, tear it apart, and leave you dragging a whole bunch of pneumatic components and wires about. In the absolute least, I'd impose a -4 penalty on tests requiring the wounded foot or -2 and call a balance check on the player every time they did something. Getting 'shot in the foot' is still pretty damn lethal.
That said, I also run pretty lethal games.
I would be absolutely terrified of running in a game of yours... It's only a -3 penalty to completely annihilate a character? In that case, I'd just constantly aim at peoples feet... ;D Seriously, though, scary.
Falconer, your stuff makes sense to me, but still scary. For my own character as an example, he has a cyber arm(+2 armor, 9 body) and 18/18 armor. If someone wanted to shoot it, they'd roll their attack(-2 for aiming at the arm, -18 to bypass armor). Ok, it's an impossible shot. So they skip trying to bypass armor. They roll their 20 assault(-2 for aiming at the arm) vs my 5 REA. That's 6 hits, I make 2 saves. So they do 6 DV +4 net hits, -1 AP. That's 10 DV vs my BOD + Armor (9+21), so on average I'd reduce it by 10. Ok, so I'm safe, but assume I rolled poorly. I only reduced it by 6. So the arm takes 4 boxes of damage(it has 12 total), and I roll willpower(5) to save against 2S... right?
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More or less... though I'd probably round up... I'd make a separate damage track for the arm/leg since it matters for repair later... and have you soak 5/2== 3stun... not a lot... but enough to be annoying.
Remember that's just house rules I'm making up on the spot with little no thought.
To me that's the role of a GM to arbitrate the game in a manner that's fun and fair to everyone... especially when the rules call for it. (the rules for called shot repeat this in the vehicle section for example... if someone wants to shoot out a tire or radiator... it's up to the Gm to figure out how he handles it).
In your case... you seem fixated on the armor... remember shadowrun armor is an abstraction... with 18 armor... not all of it is localized... especially if you have 6 points on other cyberlimbs... so I might only apply a -half the armor to ignore half of it. Which won't change the numbers much... (-10 dice damage, is equally offset by -10 dice soak.. the odds on those dice are exactly the same! no matter which side of the equation they're rolled on). So it really wouldn't matter... -10 dice means +3 average damage presoak... -10 soak means +3 more damage on average. See completely offsetting...
A +2/+2 heavy helmet for example is probably more like 10/10 local armor... but it's only +2 because the head isn't hit often in comparison to the rest of the body. I'm not for making a localized armor system in the game... as I think it's too much fiddly detail and simply slow down the game... also result in the 'boom headshot' game mechanic problem... as anyone without a helmet is instantly splattered by called shots. (use it enough against the players with 'turnabout is fair play' and they won't want that system either as unfun for them as well as the GM!).
If you had armor implants on the limb... I might choose to apply a lesser dice pool penalty but give you 6 points of armor to reflect the rating 2 armor on the limb (again simply reflecting that the 2 points is a full body abstraction)... the rules for called shot are pretty open ended and give GM's a lot of discretion they shouldn't be afraid to use IMO. But that's the kind of thing which is harder to do on the fly...
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Food for thought, definitely. I never considered that the low armor rating of the helmet was due to averaging out the portion of the body it covers. I think I'd still just go with the standard armor bypass thing, instead of getting into what you aptly called the fiddly details. The only localized armor he wears is the helmet and his arm's +2. On a tangent, for bypassing armor, does that bypass only worn armor or all armor rating?
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By strict RAW wording... the rule is for bypassing is all or nothing armor... though for some things this doesn't make sense and I also don't believe this is the intent of the authors/developers.
Besides as a matter of RAW I can always say rather than the option of bypassing all the armor... i want to bypass some of it... and let the GM adjudicate results as he sees fit as the last option for called shots states!
Again... I'm a big fan of simply letting people choose to ignore some of the armor instead of all of it... Again as i pointed out 1 dice for 1 dice... is no net change in actual damage!
The only thing it does is change the stun/physical damage threshold. (if you have 18 armor and I say I wish to bypass half of it... I'm fine with that... I'm not fine with looking well I got an AR firing APDS... so I want to bypass all but 5 points; that's a bit too fidly for a guy on multiple IP's to do in a mere second size up the armor and pick exactly the right spot for maximum penetration... if instead he wants to try and get a weaker spot in the armor rather than ignore it completely and let me make the call... I like that option a lot more.
So again in that case.. lets say you are 18 armor... they ask if they can aim for a weaker portion... I say sure and knock off say 6 or 9 points for an equal dice penalty... now all that happens is they roll their attack and the stun/lethal threshold changes to 12 or 9... depending on how many dice were taken out.
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I understand what you're saying. I guess my personal preference is to get rid of as much "GM discretion" as possible and stick with actual rules. I like the calling a shot wasn't supposed to originally allow targeting a specific body part to bypass protections and do extra damage. If I was the shooter, I'd never do anything other than targeting the head, not from liking the rule but from knowing that if I don't do it first... they will. If I was the target, I would be absolutely pissed when my hard work was destroyed by a retarded abuse of GM discretion.
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Myself I prefer the "GM Discretion", it usually results in more realistic game-play. Then again, I usually play with level headed individuals and few power hungry A$$-holes.
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Such are the consequences of mixing abstracted hit locations with location-specific armor.
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Such are the consequences of mixing abstracted hit locations with location-specific armor.
But that's just it, isn't it. The only 'armor' that I've seen that is location-specific is the protective covers for cybereyes that add +1/+1 for shots in the eye area. All other armor is non-area-centric, which fits the non-area-specific damage system.
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Right, and that has some very strange consequences. For example, if someone is wearing Synergist Business Line Slacks (1/1) with Delta-Amyloid (+3/+1) and a Ballistic Mask (+2/+1) and Helmet (+1/+2), and they also have two Armor 3 cyberlegs and an Armor 3 [bulky] Cyberskull, it's a -16 penalty to bypass their armor. But their armor is on their legs and head, and their entire torso is completely unarmored - yet it takes a world-class marksman to have any hope of hitting them in the chest!
[And yes, I'm aware that any problems with any system ever can be brushed under the rug with GM fiat].