Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Lucek on <01-08-13/1331:27>
-
Stupid idea I cam up with. Astral objects can't interact with objects not on the astral plane. But they can interact with dual-natured objects. Dual-natured sabot (a device that fits around a projectile to allow it to be used in objects that it wasn't intended to be fired from) would allow one to fire something that only has a astral form like a bullet with convectional weapons. Perfect assassins weapon. The projectile passes right through anything not tangible on the astral plane, walls, other people, etc. and hit the target.
OK now you can tell me why this won't work/is a stupid idea.
-
I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly it is you're describing, but for the bullet to pass through objects as if astral (which is a can of worms on it's own [more like a brick wall]) it would have to be astral, thus the gun firing it would have to be astral, thus the person firing it would have to be astral. It doesn't fly, on multiple levels.
Okay, I think I get what you mean, that the bullet shoots through things on the astral, in which case it would be mundane or dual-natured, in either case it would be blocked by whatever surface you intend to shoot through, to put it simply. You should also take note that while non-living things like walls won't stop astral objects, other living things, including other people would stop it. Your line of sight couldn't be good like that anyway.
-
A dual-natured bullet? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would not be so simple as wrapping a bullet in glomoss and calling it a day. The bullet part would work fine, but it would be hard to have the kinetic energy of the bullet (which is what does the killing) translate to the astral, where it is the 'idea' of damage that does the killing. Instead of a sabot, I would look at some naturally dual-natured material to form the bullet. Just know that it will be expensive as all hell, for very little return. You'd be better off finding an improved version of APDS ammo.
-
The idea is a dual-natured sabot; kind of like using a dual-natured bow to fire a astral-only arrow. The answer is "what is the actual astral object" because there aren't really rules for that, also there's no indication that things like momentum, velocity, kinetic energy, etc. even work or make sense for astral-only objects.
-
Sounds like a lot of R&D for a very niche product. Unless the actual bullet was dual-natured, then it wouldn't affect anything other than dual-natured or astral critters. And unless you were, yourself, able to astrally perceive, you couldn't target the astral critters, there are better options already existing for dealing with dual-natured critters and manifested spirits, such as SnS and APDS ammo.
-
I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly it is you're describing, but for the bullet to pass through objects as if astral (which is a can of worms on it's own [more like a brick wall]) it would have to be astral, thus the gun firing it would have to be astral, thus the person firing it would have to be astral. It doesn't fly, on multiple levels.
Okay, I think I get what you mean, that the bullet shoots through things on the astral, in which case it would be mundane or dual-natured, in either case it would be blocked by whatever surface you intend to shoot through, to put it simply. You should also take note that while non-living things like walls won't stop astral objects, other living things, including other people would stop it. Your line of sight couldn't be good like that anyway.
OK not quite. UmaroVI had it closest with the astral arrow and dual nature bow. Think of it like a babushka doll, Astral bullet in a dual-natured sabot in a real gun. The gun fires the Sabot that carries the bullet until it's leaves the gun the bullet flies off on it's own.
Is it possible, probably not. Is it practical, No! Is it fun to think about, for me that's a big yes. Basically it was a thought experiment stemming from the question how does a mundane deal with spirits and other astral entities.
-
Dual Natured means it exists on both worlds, physical and astral. Since it exists on the physical world, it does not pass through physical objects unless it does enough damage, and then it is weakened. If, however, you had a dual-natured bullet, it would strike astral only entities, making it useful to "ghost hunter" characters. However, such a thing will be ridiculously expensive and incredibly rare, if it existed at all.
-
I would think it would be useful in a place like a Zero Zone. Slip a clip into everybody's daily kit, they can use it to slow down astrals while the wage mage is en route.
-
Mason and PeterSmith, you're both missing an important point here: targeting. Unless you're able to astrally perceive, you can't even target a creature solely on the astral. Meaning that unless that spirit manifests, or you're a mage or combat adept that happens to be looking 'sideways' at the moment, you don't even get a chance to use those fancy bullets. And, as I said, if the spirit manifests, there's already great tools for dealing with them available to mundanes. And any ghost hunter capable of watching the astral will already have better things available without having to spend potentially millions of nuyen on manatech R&D that goes beyond anything anyone has ever been able to accomplish so far (i.e. ranged attacks in the astral).
-
A hallway with leech constructs starts wailing, start shooting.
Introduce FAB I into the atmosphere and keep a set of UV lights running.
Lucifer Lamps.
None of these approaches are cheap, mind you, which is why I suggested the Zero Zone scenario.
-
Like I said, though, this is at least decades, maybe a hundred years from being able to happen, if it is ever possible. You're talking major manatech R&D on something that no one is sure will actually be able to happen, when there are already existing tools to accomplish the job that are much cheaper and more efficient.
-
Mason and PeterSmith, you're both missing an important point here: targeting. Unless you're able to astrally perceive, you can't even target a creature solely on the astral. Meaning that unless that spirit manifests, or you're a mage or combat adept that happens to be looking 'sideways' at the moment, you don't even get a chance to use those fancy bullets. And, as I said, if the spirit manifests, there's already great tools for dealing with them available to mundanes. And any ghost hunter capable of watching the astral will already have better things available without having to spend potentially millions of nuyen on manatech R&D that goes beyond anything anyone has ever been able to accomplish so far (i.e. ranged attacks in the astral).
I kinda thought saying you are targeting an astral only entity implies you can see it. :P
-
Yes, but that makes the assumption that you are either using the effects of a lucifer lamp or astral shallow, or you're awakened and looking 'sideways'. Lucifer lamps burn out quickly, and in an astral shallow they can simply go through floors and walls. Really small niche where something like this would even be theoretically usable, much less a viable means of attack, assuming you got the massive R&D budget and managed to make a breakthrough. And anyone awakened will have better options than trying to use dual-natured ammo.
For mundanes, spirits are really only dangerous once they manifest. And when that happens, you can shoot them with SnS or APDS. Could something like this possibly be made? Maybe, but doubtful. Would it ever be a practical weapon system? No, never.
-
Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game. (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.
-
Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game. (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.
???
I ... don't know how to answer that. Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.
-
Problems...
One: you can't hide a real object in an astral one. the real object does not phase through walls/people/things.
Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving. So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve. Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.
Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.
Four: the closest you'll come to this by the rules is to turn a bullet into a ward anchor (or maybe a triggered spell anchor... very expensive in karma and metamagics). Even this is questionable because if the anchor is deformed or damaged (such as by the rifling of the barrel or the act of firing). The minimum size for a ward is 1m radius... so the bullet would be a permanent 2m diameter ward... that would move along with it... if mobile wards are allowed by your GM. Then you run into the old... forcing something through a ward problem wiping out spells, spirits, etc. which don't beat the opposed roll. Anchoring a spell triggered on contact... is even trickier as you need to anchor both a detection spell and the combat spell greatly increasing the cost even more.
This is nothing but a variation on the 'battering ram drone ward' idea... anchor a ward on a drone or vehicle... then drive it through a space... but one thing that many people forget on this is that the drone gains Object resistance for being behind a ward (you can't counterspell the non-living object... but you can still protect and make it harder to affect). Again though things moving at astral speeds move so fast... that this is even questionable.
-
Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game. (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.
???
I ... don't know how to answer that. Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.
Slight vocab correction. I said impracticable not impractical. Slight but meaningful difference. I.E. Making negative temperature, impractical. Get something to 0 Kelvin, impracticable.Problems...
One: you can't hide a real object in an astral one. the real object does not phase through walls/people/things.
I'm not aware of anyone asking if you could.
Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving. So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve. Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.
Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.
Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)
Four: the closest you'll come to this by the rules is to turn a bullet into a ward anchor (or maybe a triggered spell anchor... very expensive in karma and metamagics). Even this is questionable because if the anchor is deformed or damaged (such as by the rifling of the barrel or the act of firing). The minimum size for a ward is 1m radius... so the bullet would be a permanent 2m diameter ward... that would move along with it... if mobile wards are allowed by your GM. Then you run into the old... forcing something through a ward problem wiping out spells, spirits, etc. which don't beat the opposed roll. Anchoring a spell triggered on contact... is even trickier as you need to anchor both a detection spell and the combat spell greatly increasing the cost even more.
This is nothing but a variation on the 'battering ram drone ward' idea... anchor a ward on a drone or vehicle... then drive it through a space... but one thing that many people forget on this is that the drone gains Object resistance for being behind a ward (you can't counterspell the non-living object... but you can still protect and make it harder to affect). Again though things moving at astral speeds move so fast... that this is even questionable.
Again this was a tangent but one leading to a new idea. Nothing says the anchor has to be the outside of the bullet. Say a carving on the inside of a hollow point round. Ideally it wouldn't be marred till after it's impacted the target.
-
Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game. (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.
???
I ... don't know how to answer that. Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.
Slight vocab correction. I said impracticable not impractical. Slight but meaningful difference. I.E. Making negative temperature, impractical. Get something to 0 Kelvin, impracticable.
Don't correct me; I rarely use words incorrectly, and did not do so this time.
You may have a 'secret megacorp' in your game, but what you're apparently not getting is that 'impracticable' research is what some little section of all the corporations do, all the time. They're called think-tanks, whether that's economic, military, mystical, or whatever. The reason think-tanks can do this is because they are being funded by people who take their dumb-ass ideas and designs, however impractical or impracticable they are, and work on making them practical and practicable, and then selling those gizmos and gadgetries to the general populous for craploads of money that they a) return to their investors and b) use to fund the secret think-tank that came up with the idea for Gizmo A in order to come up with the idea for Gizmo B.
Or, said another way, I'm sure your 'secret megacorporation' will prove to be great fun, however unlikely it logically is, in either that it's still secret, or that 'impracticable research' is its main focus.
-
Don't correct me; I rarely use words incorrectly, and did not do so this time.
You didn't use a word incorrectly, you replaced a word with a different word that isn't a synonymy.
Or, said another way, I'm sure your 'secret megacorporation' will prove to be great fun, however unlikely it logically is, in either that it's still secret, or that 'impracticable research' is its main focus.
It's not illogical. There is a single place that you can't be seen. They simple stay there. And have for a long time in my person version of shadow run history.
-
Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving. So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve. Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.
Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.
Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)
Astral Com bat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally
perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes
and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral
Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting
characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see
the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill.
There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral
strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage
inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical
(attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by
Physical damage.
Here's the thing. You need a living aura to even be present on the astral. While nonliving objects create shadows, they cannot affect the astral. Weapon foci only work because the user's aura is bound into it. If it leaves their body, then it deactivates immediately.
Again, what you're talking about is a change in the fundamental structure of magic as we know it. Simply painting bullets in glomoss won't cut it. If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now. Now, you find a piece of dual-natured rock, and make a spear out of it, then you might, might be able to do something. Maybe. However, the damage would have nothing to do with your physical stats, but would work off your Astral Combat skill and mental stats. There are only three skills that let you attack in the Astral: Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Astral Combat. Nothing else works, period.
-
Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving. So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve. Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.
Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.
Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)
Astral Com bat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally
perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes
and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral
Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting
characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see
the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill.
There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral
strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage
inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical
(attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by
Physical damage.
Here's the thing. You need a living aura to even be present on the astral. While nonliving objects create shadows, they cannot affect the astral. Weapon foci only work because the user's aura is bound into it. If it leaves their body, then it deactivates immediately.
Again, what you're talking about is a change in the fundamental structure of magic as we know it. Simply painting bullets in glomoss won't cut it. If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now. Now, you find a piece of dual-natured rock, and make a spear out of it, then you might, might be able to do something. Maybe. However, the damage would have nothing to do with your physical stats, but would work off your Astral Combat skill and mental stats. There are only three skills that let you attack in the Astral: Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Astral Combat. Nothing else works, period.
I would note 1 thing. You are in fact reading what isn't there. No where in that paragraph did it say no ranged combat nor did it say no astral blinded combat. Just How to calculate damage depending on how you are precising an astral entity, and "no known ranged weapons that function in astral space". As such it's not changing any current rule just adding in a new one/s.
Again it's a small distinction but an important one.
BTW don't use the argument, "If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now". I'm going to try keeping this civil so I won't say what I think about it, just know it's not a good argument whatsoever.
-
Wow.
Just ... wow.
So ... since we're all going to 'try to keep this civil', I guess we'll all be leaving you alone, then.
-
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/
"If a character has a dual-natured weapon but is not astrally perceiving, can they still attack things on the astral? What about a mundane with a dual-natured weapon, like a sword possessed by a spirit?
Under the current rules, only characters present on the astral (astrally perceiving or projecting) can engage in Astral combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook."
That's where I pulled the other half of that question of yours... that a mundane cannot target things on the astral. (look at astral movement speeds and realize that things in meat are super-slow compared to an astral form with fly speed perfect 10x that of a gravity bound earthling.
"Can you attack a target on the astral using a dual-natured metahuman or critter as an improvised melee weapon?
Under the current rules, only unarmed attacks, Natural Weapons, and weapon foci deal damage in Astral Combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook."
So even if you ARE astrally percieving you're still limited to those forms of attack and can't pull an improvised astral weapon.
As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).
Any kind of outburst on your part doesn't make that not so. It only demonstrates that you feel somehow you're a special snowflake... not subject to the same rules as the rest of us. Barring any additions to the setting this is unlikely to change (from an unnamed sourcebook which is unlikely to be published with 5th ed on the horizon).
-
The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.
That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.
-
The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.
That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.
The first sentence is quite true, and it is made worse by the blatant rules contradictions (see the mystic adept contraversy) it contains.
The second, not really, no there doesn't need to be 'astral ranged weapons', and even if the developers did decide to introduce such a thing, it probably would be in the form of bows or crossbows and not firearms (which some--mainly the 'optimization' crowd--would still gripe about).
-
Why are they needed? Astral entities can't attack unless their target is dual-natured or astrally projecting/perceiving. In other words, only those on the astral can be attacked by the astral. All a mundane has to worry about is when a spirit materializes, in which case there are several things already existing that the mundane can use against them, namely SnS and APDS ammo, amongst others. About the only use I could see for this on any kind of regular basis would be for a ghoul or other dual-natured creature that is not an adept or mage. And that weakness is part of the balancing factors against creatures that are typically significantly more powerful than a normal metahuman.
-
As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).
Again no. It stated no known. We aren't talking about if something is in the rules but if it is allowed/not disallowed by the rules. They left it vague, and the argument can be raised.
-
The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.
That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.
The first sentence is quite true, and it is made worse by the blatant rules contradictions (see the mystic adept contraversy) it contains.
Okay I'm going to stop this now... the current FAQ was written FOR SR4a... it was written by an author with full knowledge and NDA of SR4a... It is a matter of public record by that author that it was written for SR4a with the full blessings of the line developer.
Don't post BS like this. Especially ignorant uninformed BS like this.
The FAQ covers over 200 topics at last check... and there are only a bare handful of situations which can be counted on a single hand where it clearly and unambiguously gets something which contradicts the rulebook. That was the conclusion of a good dozen rules lawyers who went over it with a fine tooth comb just as it was released... we had some fun arguments on that.
Even the mystic adept bit... the ONLY thing it contradicts the rulebook on is the second paragraph where it invents limitations on adept powers that did not make it into the rules.. The first is fine... as an argument can be made that FOR ALL PURPOSES OF THE SKILL includes the force and whatnot. It's ambiguous enough that you can't say it's clearly wrong though you can make an argument... it's not a conclusive one. I'm not saying this to reopen this argument... merely to point out the length of some of the arguments which have occurred and that people do read it both ways.
You may not like the FAQ and a lot of it's answers... I know I don't. But I'll defend AncientHistory and the time and effort he put into it. Most of the people who spew this bullshit have no idea of exactly how bad the PRIOR FAQ... which WAS written for SR4 was. The faq that is up is a SR4a FAQ... it is not a SR4 FAQ... thankfully that one is dead and buried (now that one was an utter mess which completely ignored the rulebok left right and center!).
-
[citation needed]
-
As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).
Again no. It stated no known. We aren't talking about if something is in the rules but if it is allowed/not disallowed by the rules. They left it vague, and the argument can be raised.
All right, try this on for size: The vagueness of the rule statement was done deliberately to allow GMs to decide if someone has invented what is literally a Magic Bullet - a weapon that can be used at range in astral combat. In regards to canonical Shadowrun, it has been stated in previous editions - and please do remember, we are operating with a system that has a persistent background and an essentially stable conceptualization of the world, however differently the crunchy bits to explain that world happen to be.
Previous editions have stated categorically that no, there are no ranged combat options for astral space, outside of spells or critter powers; a bow adept cannot shoot someone at range with a magic arrow, etc. etc. This made it into the 4th editions as 'no known', so as to give GMs the option of including those at their tables.
If, at your table, you want to have them, that's your option; keep it at your table. In the Shadowrun standard canon, however, they don't exist. Period.
-
I like the idea. Probably not something that I would introduce to the game so that the players could get their hands on it, but I could definitely see the weapon as part of a plot point.
You could use it as a weapon against a dual natured being. That annoying shapeshifter who's been stirring up trouble, well he can't cover his moving car with wards, but we can see through his tinted windows with this new radar system and since the astral bullet that will be launched will go through the car/windows without breaking them nor will they leave a mark on his body, no one will know what hit him and it can't be traced back to us.
Even against materialized spirit, s&s gives you 6s at -half armor. This in a sniper rifle gives you 7+P with ap -2 or better and ignores the immunity to natural weapons, making it vastly superior with both more damage and better armor penetration.
"The idea was simple, we took an astral rock, really just a pebble that only exists as an astral form, and shaped it into this bullet that we put into this sabot made from some dual natured unobtanium found in the magically active volcano at mount phlebotium..."
-
Achsin... problems... spells and spirits are the only purely astral living things with astral forms which can interact with other astral forms. If dealing with spells... processed sensors like radar/sonar can't be used to establish the mystical link that targets spells.
There are no 'astral rocks' at all in the setting. It would be a holy grail of manatech to find such an item. There are are auras (which can be read but otherwise not interacted with), there are astral shadows (the clutter of the real world blocking visibility on the astral), and their are astral forms of dual-natured/astral entites which can interact with each other but not the shadows or auras.
The shapeshifter is travelling in an unwarded vehicle and is vulnerable to astral attacks... so a mage could just pop his head through the drivers or rear window out of reach of him and nuke him with a spell. Be creative and mind control him into causing a horrific accident... which if it doesn't kill him a little magical 'help' can be applied. Or even better... for far less than the cost to invent this magical bullet made of unobtanium... summon and bind some truly horrific spirits of say force 8 or 9 or so. The spirits proceed to gang bang the mostly helpless shapeshifter. They kill him with astral combat without leaving a mark on his body and pop back to the metaplanes they came from.
You're making some kind of McGuffin device which serves no purpose except to break the rules.
-
It would be the holy grail of manatech. That's the point. Where did it come from? How did it get to our astral plane? Does it have something to do with the horrors? Why would someone use it for this?
All of those methods you described would leave astral signatures that would lead back to the person who did it, where this astral pebble wouldn't, in fact, even if it was found the person examining it probably wouldn't have the slightest clue what it was since as you stated, it "can't" exist. There are plenty of magical things that exist but aren't explained, and they are still discovering new things.
While I agree that it might not suit your table or campaign, the idea that such a thing exists could be the basis for a fun campaign for other groups.
-
Except you're forgetting something... astral combat doesn't leave astral signatures.
Your only hope is to track the link from the spirits to their summoner/controller.
And spell's which do leave astral signatures can be scrubbed away in a matter of seconds... in 10 seconds the mage can scrub 9 points for force away. (3 astral passes per combat turn).
-
You know the funny thing about the holy grail? No one ever finds it. They think they find it, sure, only to have it snatched away at the last minute, if they even get that close. The holy grail is (and was always meant to be) an unattainable ideal. By which standards your comparison is correct. Especially in the 'unattainable' part. What you're describing is as world-breaking as introducing the Death Star to a D&D game. In other words, you should be hit about the head with a phone book until the horrible ideas stop coming out.
Seriously, though, this is something that is utterly unworkable as magic is understood now, or even at the height of the Fourth World, when they knew a helluvalot more about magic than they do in the Sixth. You want to know the best argument against what you're suggesting? Saeder-Krupp, NeoNET, and Mitsuhama don't have it. If the three corps with GREAT DRAGONS heavily involved can't make it work, then it isn't possible. And really, there's no reason for it. Anyone capable of targeting astral forms will already have means of hitting them. Anyone incapable of targeting astral forms has nothing to fear from them until they manifest, in which case they have more than a few easily available options to deal with them.
-
OK Mirikon. You've made it clear you don't like the idea. But you must admit Achsin has it right. If this was introduced then it would be worth multitrillion nuyen. The kinda job that a character would retire off of. Kinda job that could make a good basis for a end game plot.
Oh and Deathstar in D&D. Either you need to refresh your knowledge on 2E or you just didn't like the funkier settings.
-
Da Vinci couldn't make a working flying machine, therefore it can't exist. The 4th age didn't invent the matrix therefore it's impossible. Just because they didn't discover it back then doesn't preclude it being discovered now. I'd presume that the Greats didn't forget everything they knew back then and have a starting point to build from. On the other hand, maybe this astral object/entity's introduction to our realm is something that will bring the coming of the Horrors nearer and the Greats know it, in which case wouldn't they actively misdirect research into the subject?
Also, I never suggested introducing it into the game in such a manner that the players would be able to recreate it or even utilize it (more than the plot demands anyways) and therefore unbalance the game. I made a comparison for possible advantages of such technology over current tech vs manifested spirits to explain it's introduction to use as ammunition, but as stated it is effective against dual natured beings (and probably should ignore their armor too and count as magical for ignoring ItNW) and a non magician with astral sight would be able to utilize it vs spirits. Things get invented all the time that are inferior to other options or don't really seem to have a useful purpose, but may springboard into more useful inventions.
As for world breaking, Crash 2.0 and the new wireless matrix effectively broke the previous world, as well as numerous other occrances in the timeline.
10 seconds is more than enough time for any astral support to either confront you or assense your astral signature.
-
Wow, you two.
Look, here's the thing: you two, Achsin and Lucek, are focussing on 'what's in the game world' and 'just because it isn't in there doesn't mean it can't be done'. Mirikon, myself, and most of the rest of us are looking at it less on the 'hasn't been done yet' and more on the 'goes against game philosophy and previous absolute statements about how the universe works'. You can't smack a proton and an antiproton together and not expect fireworks; you can't stand naked in the middle of the heart of a star without incredible technology or immense powers; you can't create a ranged astral weapon outside of a spell. Not 'it hasn't been done yet'; it goes against game philosophy and the absolute laws of how magic works.
Yes, if Achsin wants to introduce it into his game, then sure, it's a multi-trillion-dollar 'eureka' event. Is it ever going to make it into mainline SR? Not on your life, because it goes against the theme of the game.
Achsin, Crash 2.0 and the WMI sure as hell didn't break the previous world. C2.0 may have done a number on it, but 'break'? Err ... no. Redirected, shifted, yes. Break? I believe you have Shadowrun confused with something else.
-
If you want something cool get a duck with rocket launchers, jets, and lasers built into it. Now that's cool. 8)
-
If you want something cool get a duck with rocket launchers, jets, and lasers built into it. Now that's cool. 8)
I only have one thing to say about that. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-06-20)
-
Yeah The Wyrm Ouroboros we get it. We are in fact looking at it on 2 completely different sides not disagreeing about any points just interpretation of them. Basically any discussion on the internet. ;D
-
Actually, no, Lucek - I disagree with every point you've got, but I'm being nice. However, I am certain that inisde the game world, there are labs all over the world looking for your magic bullet. They'll never find it, but sure, they're looking for it.
-
As I said internet argument.