Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Comrade Wolf on <02-04-13/2115:02>
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I'd appreciate opinions, if anyone's got one. Are cybereyes worth the cost/Essence in a mage you're already throwing some ware into? And if so, what accessories would you put in there? I'm almost considering an ultrasound sensor instead, which seems like it would be a good way to get around visibility modifiers.
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It's debatable if ultrasound sensors work for targeting spells or not. If your GM will let you target with Ultrasound implants, then it is super awesome.
Cybereyes are also debatable - it depends on your metatype. On a human, yes, it's probably worth it. On a dwarf or troll, it's more iffy, especially compared to just implanting what you wanted directly into your eyes.
Thermographic, Low-light, and Eye Light System are all good. Microscopic is good for some people. Smartlink allows you to use that goofy glove to shoot Indirect spells. Retinal Duplicators are crazy expensive and high availability, but they do have a niche that's hard to duplicate. The rest is filler because it's either lolware or can just go in goggles.
If you are a metatype with some natural vision, you might just want to jam the 'ware directly into your eyes. For example, on a dwarf, if you just want Thermo, Low-Light, and Eye Light System, you'd need rating 2 cybereyes (.3 essence), or you can get Low-light and Eye Light System directly for .2. If you wanted more stuff, the cybereyes might start to look better.
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When you go for ware anyway, go for it (and get the miracast spellslinger from arsenal if you happen to have an indirect combat spell).
Otherwise the Magic loss is most probably not worth it.
If you go for genetic enhancement (willpower and logic) and a logic booster for the +5 drain dice... and have a bit of essence left...
And are going for some indirect combat spell (flamethrower/screech) for which you can use the spellslinger, you probably benefit.
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Tight, thanks for the good advice.
Additional (completely insane) question: mages and ocular drones? I'm like 85% certain it's too awesome to be true, but... I mean, you did pay Essence for 'em. :3
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RAW maybe because the rules are incredibly vague. FAQ says no:
Can I cast a spell through an ocular drone, since I have paid Essence for it, when the drone is not in my body?
Magicians cannot normally target spells through electronic imaging devices; they can only target spells through cybereyes because they are paid for with Essence. A magician can cast spells through an ocular drone while it is “docked” in their eye socket, because it is acting like a regular cybereye. Once the drone has left the character’s body, it can no longer be used to target spells.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/
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I think it's worth it if you enjoy it. It also frees up extra essence you can spend on other nice ware. But if you're worried about losing essence you can also use upgraded contact lenses.
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The problem with upgrades contacts/googles is you cant use the vison mods they provide for spell casting.
The advantage of cyber eyes is you cant drop loose them like you can exnternal ones and you can use them for spell casting.
Are they worth it is amater of how you play your charter, if the only thing you care about is getting magic as high as you can to cast stronger spells then it might not be.
If whould perfer not to take some things to help you cast spells or do other things it is a good thing.
In my expearnce loss of a point or two of magic in any eddition has not realy been cripling on mages. (note I only started plaing in second so not shure about 1st)
Depening on what mods you take they can be helpfull. With a ation coprocessor triked out cyber eyes and ears you can be at +6 on visaul perception, and i belive +8 on audio. Good when you rember with a mage needs to find a target to hit it.
The ultra sound mod/cybeware is best for detecting invis charters but wether or not it works for spell casting is your GMs call, athou there I have yet to find a clear no on it, it is best to let the gm make the call.
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
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Glasses and contact lenses don't provide true LOS.
Cybereyes are an exception because you paid with essence for them and thus they are part of you and your soul which is targeting the spell... or whatever your tradition believes in.
It's all in the rules, you need to read about LOS (line of sight) and spell targeting.
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
because Ultrasound (and Radar ) is not SIGHT
only Sight (normal, Infrared and Lowlight) qualifies for a Spell with LineOfSight.
Casting a Spell with Hearing ,Smelling,Ultrasound or Radar to be used instead of sight needs a Houserule .
with an Dance out of Sight
Medicineman
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Glasses and contact lenses don't provide true LOS.
Cybereyes are an exception because you paid with essence for them and thus they are part of you and your soul which is targeting the spell... or whatever your tradition believes in.
It's all in the rules, you need to read about LOS (line of sight) and spell targeting.
I'm not sure about that, necessarily. As long as it's an optical enhancement and not electronic, glasses (eg mage goggles, for example) can count as LOS. The section on accessories for glasses and contacts in the core rulebook says:
Vision Magnification: This zoom function magnifies vision by up to 50 times, allowing distant targets to be seen clearly. It is available as both an optical (ideal for spellcasting at distant targets) or electronic (with real-time image correction) enhancement.
Seems pretty clear.
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......oO( for optical Vision Magnification You'll need Glasses like Prof.Farnsworth from Futurama ;D
http://dyn1.media.forbiddenplanet.com/products/18884720.jpg.size-285_maxheight-285_square-true.jpg )
with a silent Dance
Medicineman
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Glasses and contact lenses don't provide true LOS.
Cybereyes are an exception because you paid with essence for them and thus they are part of you and your soul which is targeting the spell... or whatever your tradition believes in.
It's all in the rules, you need to read about LOS (line of sight) and spell targeting.
I'm not sure about that, necessarily. As long as it's an optical enhancement and not electronic, glasses (eg mage goggles, for example) can count as LOS. The section on accessories for glasses and contacts in the core rulebook says:
Vision Magnification: This zoom function magnifies vision by up to 50 times, allowing distant targets to be seen clearly. It is available as both an optical (ideal for spellcasting at distant targets) or electronic (with real-time image correction) enhancement.
Seems pretty clear.
Yes vision magnification is the exception that is always to be found, but only if you explicitly buy it optical.
There is no optical infrared or low light vision enhancement, and certainly no optical ultrasound enhancement.
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
because they are a vsion enhament that substutes itself for the charters own vision not paid for with essence.
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
because they are a vsion enhament that substutes itself for the charters own vision not paid for with essence.
:)
Its not wether its paid for in Essence or not.
Radar (and Ultrasound) simply is not sight.
thats the simple core of why a Mage can't cast a Spell with LOS .
Just like he can't cast it with Hearing or Smelling
with a sweaty Dance
Medicineman
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
because they are a vsion enhament that substutes itself for the charters own vision not paid for with essence.
:)
Its not wether its paid for in Essence or not.
Radar (and Ultrasound) simply is not sight.
thats the simple core of why a Mage can't cast a Spell with LOS .
Just like he can't cast it with Hearing or Smelling
with a sweaty Dance
Medicineman
I am not going to restart that debate here but that is your opion not the rules.
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Why don't their modifications work for magicians?
because they are a vsion enhament that substutes itself for the charters own vision not paid for with essence.
:)
Its not wether its paid for in Essence or not.
Radar (and Ultrasound) simply is not sight.
thats the simple core of why a Mage can't cast a Spell with LOS .
Just like he can't cast it with Hearing or Smelling
with a sweaty Dance
Medicineman
I am not going to restart that debate here but that is your opion not the rules.
Actually, it is. If it is Headware like Ultrasound and Radar, it is not sight. If it is Eyeware then it is sight. It's just that simple. There may not be a sentence saying "______ are examples of sight and ______ are not sight", but it's pretty plain that if it isn't something that goes directly into the eyes (when used as implant) it isn't--at least when using a bit of common sense.
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I do not wan't to resart it hear but the rules do not say cyber eyes/sight they say cyber ware that can spot the target can be used. So again it is your opion that only sight can work. I am quite threw with people claiming there opions are the rules on this.
In the end wiether or not they can be used is up the GM, some may block it for what ever reason some may allow it.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
Simple, they suffer "vision modifiers" because it is a system of modifiers already in place, and in keeping with the KISS principle they didn't want to further complicate matters by creating an entirely new set of modifiers just for that.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
Simple, they suffer "vision modifiers" because it is a system of modifiers already in place, and in keeping with the KISS principle they didn't want to further complicate matters by creating an entirely new set of modifiers just for that.
This is not the place to be debating this. The question for this topic is it worth it for a mage to have cyber-eyes. Depending on you play your charters it can be. Minor cyber bio 1-2 points you can still make verry functioning mages. However for some play styles it might not be. If you want to max out your magic damage then taking the cyber implants whould limit it. I have done both and both are playble and effective.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
Simple, they suffer "vision modifiers" because it is a system of modifiers already in place, and in keeping with the KISS principle they didn't want to further complicate matters by creating an entirely new set of modifiers just for that.
This is not the place to be debating this. The question for this topic is it worth it for a mage to have cyber-eyes. Depending on you play your charters it can be. Minor cyber bio 1-2 points you can still make verry functioning mages. However for some play styles it might not be. If you want to max out your magic damage then taking the cyber implants whould limit it. I have done both and both are playble and effective.
The answer to that question is also simple. No, it isn't worth it except in very rare cases where the character idea may require it.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
You should really be aware of the context before jumping in, here - it's a carry over of a pseudo-argument about whether or not the fact that cyber-eyes can be used to target spells means that radar can.
Basically, a discussion that boils down to "things that are-like-sight-but-not-sight are not sight and thus can't be used to target spells" with "yes they can lalalalalalalalalalaIcan'thearyoulalalalalalalalalalala" being the response.
In any case: Cyber-eyes can be worth it if you have 'ware already and remaining partial Essence to work with, but never worth directly losing a point of Magic.
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If UWB and Ultrasound are not vision, why do they suffer from vision modifiers?
You're splitting hairs, picking the vague sort of rule in the book that supports your view and ignoring the similarly vague sort of rules that support the other. The fact of the matter is, There is no rule for it. It isn't explicitly stated anywhere, so it's up to the GM.
You should really be aware of the context before jumping in, here - it's a carry over of a pseudo-argument about whether or not the fact that cyber-eyes can be used to target spells means that radar can.
Basically, a discussion that boils down to "things that are-like-sight-but-not-sight are not sight and thus can't be used to target spells" with "yes they can lalalalalalalalalalaIcan'thearyoulalalalalalalalalalala" being the response.
In any case: Cyber-eyes can be worth it if you have 'ware already and remaining partial Essence to work with, but never worth directly losing a point of Magic.
usaly if I take cyber eyes on a mage it also has other cyber/bio implants. Such as when I made a sensory based mage with cyber eyes, ation coprocessor. He had I high spot chance +6 to visual, so he had a good chance to detect people quickly and then hit them with spells. The group wound up beeing a counter stealth group able to track down hard to find things and people. We pulled lots of runs where we got hired because a company got a tip they whould be hit by runners, so we augmented the secerty. Thouse where some perty tuff runs thou, runners vs gmed runners.
But all said the abilty of a human mage to cast spells reguardless of light is a big bonus.