Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: RHat on <02-07-13/1742:25>
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So, starting from the assumption that Magic and Resonance are in some way related but seperate, I have a bit of a theory.
Magic is, in essence, shaped by belief. Conscious minds have an influence upon the manasphere and metaplanes close to Earth - hence why all beliefs are valid where traditions are concerned. This also explains how the rules of magic change over time. Note that one of the Jackpointers (can't remember who) directly discusses the power of belief. The Invae are shaped by this, too - they resemble insects and are vulnerable to insecticide because of some people's beliefs or phobias about insects. The Shedim, then, get their power from the zombie media following after Romero.
Resonance, in comparison, is directly tied to an massive body of knowledge. In point of fact, I theorize that Resonance is a force of knowledge in the way that I posit Magic is a force of belief. It is tied to the Matrix because that is the storage of the vast body of human knowledge - hence the Archive. The Schumann Resonance, then, is a manifestation of the Resonance Realms closest to Earth. This explains the change from Otaku to Technomancers (as the representation of knowledge changed), and provides for the rules of Resonance to change as more knowledge is gained. Streams can be viewed as representing the knowledge of the Universal Theory of Magic. The Resonance is named, in essence, for the fact that as data enters this body of knowledge, the truth value of it can be determined by it's "resonance" with the rest of this body of knowledge. Elements that do not fit (that is, are in fact counter-factual when compared to other knowledge) are "dissonant". Thus Resonance is an emergent force of metahuman knowledge, and Dissonance is the counterpoint created by disinformation, secrets, counter-factual thinking, and so on.
Both rise and fall with the mana level, but without something like the Matrix to influence (that is, and active body of data that has an effect on the world around it) Resonance can't really do anything.
Any holes in all this?
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So, you speculate, then, that Drain is the mental fatigue of imposing your will on existence itself?
How, then, is Fading explained? It doesn't, at all, damage your theory, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Sprites. Do they represent this body of information 'coming alive'? The actual emerging sentience of, not just a particular chunk of coding, but the awakening force of Resonance itself, much like Mana Storms, only more frequent by far, and less destructive - information changes much more rapidly, but each bit of data isn't nearly as immense as belief, which spans entire lives.
If Magic is belief, and Resonance is knowledge, then what is Mana?
And does this effectively mean that propaganda is a WMD that works on the Astral and the Matrix?
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So, you speculate, then, that Drain is the mental fatigue of imposing your will on existence itself?
How, then, is Fading explained? It doesn't, at all, damage your theory, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Two ways off the top of my head to explain Drain - either the mental strain of, quite simply, believing something so hard as to make it take form (forcing the brain into a sort of overdrive), or the strain upon the body imposed by channeling mana through the body (basically like running current through it). Fading fits into both of these. In the first method, it is instead the consequence of jamming your brain so full of data (such as the data that makes up and maintains a threaded Complex Form) that the information represents a complete blueprint to actually forge mana into something, which would essentially overload the working memory of the human brain, possibly requiring on-the-spot creation of a great many new neural connections (this also nicely feeds into why Otaku used to lose their abilities as they aged, as that would be connected to the decline in neural plasticity); in the other explanation the exact same thing is happening, with the possible addition of a greater bio-electrical energy running through the body to power the EM radiation needed for the bio-node to function.
Sprites. Do they represent this body of information 'coming alive'? The actual emerging sentience of, not just a particular chunk of coding, but the awakening force of Resonance itself, much like Mana Storms, only more frequent by far, and less destructive - information changes much more rapidly, but each bit of data isn't nearly as immense as belief, which spans entire lives.
Well, let's consider for a second that we already have "emergent consciousnesses" in the form of AIs, which "awaken" from normal code. Code is data. Data is information, or knowledge. Thus, a sprite would be connected to an AI in that both are, in essence, born out of data. The difference is that the AI comes from specific code while the sprite comes from the grand body of knowledge. Which suggests that there could be a consciousness of the Resonance itself (and of the Dissonance, which is supported by the effect of bringing Dissonant technomancers into deadzones - it's like putting them on anti-psychotics). Remember, though, that the Resonance would come from the interaction of information, not from a single piece of data in and of itself - the power of a single, small point of data that puts everything into a whole new light could be great indeed, and that would be more likely to cause something akin to a Mana Storm. Alternatively, particularly well-crafted disinformation could have a similar, though Dissonant effect.
If Magic is belief, and Resonance is knowledge, then what is Mana?
That's a very, very, very good question. One which I don't know that we have the data to be able to answer - especially because this raises the question as to whether there could be other manifestations of mana.
And does this effectively mean that propaganda is a WMD that works on the Astral and the Matrix?
See, this is where the resonant or dissonant nature of a new data point comes in - which corresponds to the truth value of it. Something either fits with the grand body of knowledge, or contradicts it somehow. In the first case, that piece of data is probably resonant, aka true. In the second, some element of the contradiction is almost certainly dissonant, aka false - like cognitive dissonance on a whole new scale (and I somehow managed to miss that parallel until just now). Propaganda might add to the power of Dissonance, but it could not on the whole impact the Resonance. However, especially successful propaganda, that is, propaganda that gets a great many people to actually, truly, deeply, and honestly believe it could be quite powerful - which makes Horizon's brainwashing techniques very powerful.
This also provides a motivation for Paragons in the guidance they give their technomancers, and for streams at large - to rediscover lost knowledge and truths, and to create or discover new knowledge and truths.
It's all a pretty fresh theory, so it could likely use some refinement. But I love the interplay it creates, and it goes a long way to explain why the two have such little impact on each other.
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Talking about Progaganda, I meant that it affects both the flow of data, and belief. Manipulating data, not just adding in Dissonance, but, over time, and creating a lot of correlated data, actually guiding the flow of Resonance! And, by shaping belief, it's possible to create and deconstruct limiters on Mages.
Horizon could institutionally control the shape of Magic and Resonance, and in fact may be trying to actively.
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Talking about Progaganda, I meant that it affects both the flow of data, and belief. Manipulating data, not just adding in Dissonance, but, over time, and creating a lot of correlated data, actually guiding the flow of Resonance! And, by shaping belief, it's possible to create and deconstruct limiters on Mages.
Horizon could institutionally control the shape of Magic and Resonance, and in fact may be trying to actively.
Here's the thing: All of that correlated data would, as data contrary to it came into consideration, be filtered out. It's not just about creating data, the data has to "resonate" according to this theory. For it to work even temporarily, the person putting the false information together would have to factor in the entire body of knowledge going back at least as far as computing itself, and, well, I'm pretty sure that's beyond the reach of even Horizon.
As far as mages, go, though - yes, according to this theory you could change the behaviour of magic if you could change the honest and complete beliefs of a large enough number of people. However, a lot of Horizon's PR mojo doesn't so much do that - they don't aim to change people at that level but rather use a more effective method of building off of the ideas people already have.
That, and the mana level would still impose restrictions, due to there just not being enough mana to force something into existence.
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Not sure you quite understand what I mean.
Propaganda works off existing data. The sky is blue, because of water particles and refracting light, is a fact of science. Adding in a few sprinkles of extraneous data - the water in x area is contaminated. Expand on this, over time, until there is a 'contaminant' that is non-harmful to anyone who isn't Awakened, follow through with some science, and, if Power of Belief guides, some Mages will soon develop acute photo sensitivity. This data isn't disputed - you're talking about new data being entered in. New occurences. Data doesn't know lies from truth, and so if the internet says that Mel GIbson is immortal, in every single file that refers to him, then Resonance believes he can't die of old age, and so there's probably a Paragon based on him somewhere on the 'Trix.
Propaganda doesn't work through outright lies, but adjustment of reality through subtle stages. If Horizon is aware of the relation between agreeing data, and Resonance, it would be simple for such a powerful PR machine to begin testing, and eventually alter the abilities of Technos - Now they can override brains, because the already thin line between an electronic computer and the Metahuman brain, which runs like a computer, is blurred.
Yes, there are limitations. Individual power just doesn't eclipse certain power boundaries. That doesn't mean that a well-oiled PR machine can't control the world with an army of brainwashed Mages and a bunch of Technomancers slaved to a Resonance they alter to outfit their army with new abilities.
So, if data merely has to 'resonate', that just means a consensus is required. Tell me a Megacorp can't create an online consensus trend of data for an obscure, poorly understood topic, to test its effect on Technomancers. Tell me that Lowfyr can't give an order, and have a landslide of 'new studies' explain that some of the rules of physics that cause physical restrictions for Technomancers, in such a light, as to remove said restrictions, or enhance them?
Just because 50 percent or greater of a given sample set says 'yes' doesn't mean it really is the truth.
Thus, Resonance can, according to your theory, be eventually used to slave all Technomancers. A new Religion can be used to shepard Corp Mages past many imposed limitations, while ensuring further obedience and efficiency.
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To begin with, just consider the question of how you determine the truth or falsity of any new piece of information. One method of many is to compare it to what you already know - if it contradicts information you already have, something in the set has to be false. Between other methods of determining truth from falsity (which would be elements of the knowledge base, and in fact how most of it would be built) and a massive amount of information to compare it to, it would be very difficult to create false data that wouldn't be rejected.
Propaganda isn't outright lies, no, but it's either false implications by selecting what true information you provide (in which case there's probably not any new information going into the knowledge base), or uses primarily true information and fills in certain things with false information. The problem is, the false information would have to be perfectly in sync to avoid being "challenged" - and not contradicted by any information going in later. So, for example, if your propaganda is saying that the water from a particular source is contaminated by substance X (and you've caused the symptoms of the substance in people to lend it verisimilitude), but 10 people on separate occasions test the water and find no trace, and of course publish the data. The PR machine might be able to suppress that information, but its too late - the information's out there now. If you claim the contaminant is harmful only to the Awakened, those 10 people test that instead and find it isn't.
The data needs more than an internal consensus to resonate, it needs to fit with everything else - and information determined to be false is pruned out.
As far as the "Power of Belief" thing goes, though, other than people's traditions and such, we're talking about the deeply held beliefs and convictions of the whole world - getting a small group of people isn't enough to change the rules that everyone is bound by. That would require world-wide reach.
It might be possible to nudge the Resonance, but the nature of it as presented in this theory would be self-correcting as more information is created. And the plan would fall apart if the plan itself became part of the knowledge base. And all of those studies would have to not contradict anything else - after all, it's an element of the body of knowledge that more people believing something doesn't make it true, thus its method of pruning couldn't be "more things make this claim than this claim" - a consensus is not truth, and the Resonance would "know" this. To have a long-lasting impact on the Resonance, your new information would need to be true - but if you were, for example, to discover enough information about how the brain works...
As far as magic goes, a strong localized effect is possible (see: Hermetics being changed by the Unified Magic Theory), but a universal effect would be beyond the reach of anyone, really.
In essence, this theory accounts for the fact that these forces are beyond the control of even the megas, which is actually important for keeping things dangerous - they can't arrange for the bugs to be disbelieved out of existence, for example.
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You're working off the assumption that Resonance fact-checks like a human. It's a repository of data - see the Great Library. It takes it all in. Really, considering all the lies that Megas front already, you're assuming too much of 'independent' studies - how many have to be corp-funded?
Realistically, Megas all have the power, but not the knowledge, to influence Resonance. They may even do it without knowing that they're causing this reaction.
There are limits to all things, but even finding those limits provides a power of its own - Mages can't actually 'vanish' an entire country, because they can't use that much Mana at once. Or, Mages can't work together past a certain threshold, unless they're all part of the same Tradition. Then, we can create our own Mana Storms. Or, we can cause our own Awakenings. Or, no, that isn't possible, but we now understand the moving forces behind those things better, so we can be on the lookout for any new emerging Metatypes.
By the way, I just realized that we're probably scaring off anyone who would care to comment, with our long-winded posts and the exclusive back-and-forth. Shoulda done PMs, I think. Ooops.
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Can't respond in full from my phone, but one point to consider: Data and knowledge are to different things. Data can be false, but knowledge per definition is not.
Additionally: As a body of knowledge, the Resonance far predates any of the megas, and controlling it would have required a concerted effort from the very beginning with a certain minimum amount of time wherein noone was working against them. Megas are powerful, yes, but certain things in Shadowrun are beyond anyone's control, and the misguided attempts of the megas to control such things is part of where the danger comes in - see: Ares and bugs.
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I'd actually reverse that - data cannot, by definition, be false; it is either factual or else it is not data. Knowledge, on the other hand, is subjective.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
'Knowledge' is part data/fact, but also part imagination - what theory fits the data/fact. We 'know' how gravity works, because it's the theory that best fits our current data - but unless you are literally omniscient, the data you possess is incomplete, even at the best of times.
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Regardless of definition, part of the point is that the truth value is a big part of the difference between Resonance and Dissonance.
However, I'd argue there's a difference between actually knowing something and believing you know something. And per this definition, would Resonance not be the most complete set of valid data that exists?
Still phone posting, so apologies for lack of detail.
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Regardless of definition, part of the point is that the truth value is a big part of the difference between Resonance and Dissonance.
However, I'd argue there's a difference between actually knowing something and believing you know something. And per this definition, would Resonance not be the most complete set of valid data that exists?
Still phone posting, so apologies for lack of detail.
You keep on insisting that Resonance actually can differentiate right from wrong. Data is data. It just is. If a few thousand, or million, pages, insist that a groundbreaking new theory hammers away gravity as a theory only Awakened have the power to disbelieve, then according to the Matrix, Mages should float. This, innately, would mean that Technomancers would be 'lighter' in the matrix, and unbound by coding specifications towards gravity.
If Resonance is 'alive', it's likely Xenosapient, and incomprehensible to humans. I doubt that, given the immense and conflicting data it has on the world, it would have an accurate view of anything, really. It's safer if it isn't alive. If it isn't alive, then it can be influenced and used. And we all know that Horizon would be all over that shit in a heartbeat.
Ouroboros, you seem to be on the same page as I am. But, following your train of thought with a stray idea...If the Matrix operated on Knowledge, that'd imply that A.I.s were...Children, of the Matrix? In a literal sense. Deus being one of the oldest, and most influenced by its daddy. That there are so many differing AI indicates either a constantly shifting nature within the Matrix, or an enormous personality that is simply beyond mortal comprehension entirely - truly xenosapient.
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Magic isn't shaped by belief. It is shaped by thoughts. This is a small, but crucial, difference.
Beliefs are passive. They are just there. Once taken in, the conscious mind doesn't work with them too much. Very little mental energy is expended unless the believer actively examines her/his beliefs. But then, this isn't believing, this is thinking.
Thoughts are active. They are mental energy shaped and directed by the conscious mind. Thinking is actually very, very energy intensive and draining to the thinker (it's not much, but go ahead and do some higher math, physics, and philosophy/logic problems for a few hours and tell me it ISN'T draining).
It is this moving around and manipulating of mental energies that shapes the magical energies that exist just adjacent to the physical plane within the astral plane. In my previous example, shaping magical energy is like doing all those math, physics, and philosophy/logic problems for a few hours within the span of a second or two. THAT is what drain is.
As for fading, I would equate the effort required within the time required to something similar to magic working. I think there are similarities beyond just using a similar system to register and record drain/fading at work here. I think the devs did this intentionally.
EDIT: Also, magic doesn't pick right and wrong in Shadowrun. It doesn't work that way. It's just astral energy moving from the astral plane to the physical plane. It doesn't think, choose, or believe. Any more than rain falling from the sky thinks, chooses, or believes where it will fall.
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Okay, time for detail.
You're working off the assumption that Resonance fact-checks like a human. It's a repository of data - see the Great Library. It takes it all in. Really, considering all the lies that Megas front already, you're assuming too much of 'independent' studies - how many have to be corp-funded?
Realistically, Megas all have the power, but not the knowledge, to influence Resonance. They may even do it without knowing that they're causing this reaction.
There are limits to all things, but even finding those limits provides a power of its own - Mages can't actually 'vanish' an entire country, because they can't use that much Mana at once. Or, Mages can't work together past a certain threshold, unless they're all part of the same Tradition. Then, we can create our own Mana Storms. Or, we can cause our own Awakenings. Or, no, that isn't possible, but we now understand the moving forces behind those things better, so we can be on the lookout for any new emerging Metatypes.
By the way, I just realized that we're probably scaring off anyone who would care to comment, with our long-winded posts and the exclusive back-and-forth. Shoulda done PMs, I think. Ooops.
That assumption is a core element of the theory - if Resonance is a force of knowledge, it is per definition about more than simply data points that might be false. The discursive process (the creation or discovery of knowledge) isn't about simply creating data, it's about trying to get truth out of that data. Separating noise from signal, coding responses to determine and correlate actual meaning, and a number of other things are vital parts of this process that has built most of the body of human knowledge. And the Resonance has knowledge of these processes. This theory holds that the Resonance is not simply a database; it may not be sapient, but it is certainly active. The Archive is, in essence, a massive database, but the Archive is only an element of the Resonance and not remotely the entirety. And it's certainly worth noting that all computer technology, at its core, boils down to a series of true-false values, aka binary; I should think it no coincidence that the Resonance could latch itself onto something of that nature and yet not other forms of the representation of information (after all, the Archive goes back to the beginning of computing and not, say, the printing of the Gutenburg Bible).
As for the megas, as I said, they could potentially nudge the Resonance; the self-correcting nature of something like this prevents them from truly steering it. Actual control is certainly beyond them - one would have to utterly control all creation or discovery of knowledge. Horizon would probably understand this best, because the Consensus shares some similar properties - short of full on mind control of pretty much the whole company, you can't control the Consensus. Steering the Consensus isn't a real possibility as you'd have to be the sole influence upon all of Horizon. But nudging it is not only possible, but canon - see Twilight Horizon.
Knowing in full the limits of Magic and Resonance would be a powerful thing indeed, though, for so long as those limits remain the same.
I'd actually reverse that - data cannot, by definition, be false; it is either factual or else it is not data. Knowledge, on the other hand, is subjective.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
'Knowledge' is part data/fact, but also part imagination - what theory fits the data/fact. We 'know' how gravity works, because it's the theory that best fits our current data - but unless you are literally omniscient, the data you possess is incomplete, even at the best of times.
I disagree with your definitions. Data can be false, and in fact falsified. If someone entered false inventory values into a system, for example, those false values would still be data. I've certainly never met anyone or read any work in the field of computer science claiming data must be true, nor in science more generally - and that is in large part my lens here. In fact, ensuring the validity (aka, truth) of your data is an incredibly important part of the scientific method.
Knowledge, on the other hand, is not subjective. If it is false, it is not knowledge - no matter how many people think it is, and no matter how certain they are. And go ask a physicist if we "know" how gravity works. We don't. We know it does, but we only have ideas as to how (there's actually a comic floating around out there where a physicist hears a science advocate say that we understand evolution as well as we understand gravity, which prompts the physicist to say something along the lines of "Wait, is she saying we don't understand evolution?!"). It is possible to falsely believe we know something, but that means we do not have actual knowledge.
Regardless of definition, part of the point is that the truth value is a big part of the difference between Resonance and Dissonance.
However, I'd argue there's a difference between actually knowing something and believing you know something. And per this definition, would Resonance not be the most complete set of valid data that exists?
Still phone posting, so apologies for lack of detail.
You keep on insisting that Resonance actually can differentiate right from wrong. Data is data. It just is. If a few thousand, or million, pages, insist that a groundbreaking new theory hammers away gravity as a theory only Awakened have the power to disbelieve, then according to the Matrix, Mages should float. This, innately, would mean that Technomancers would be 'lighter' in the matrix, and unbound by coding specifications towards gravity.
If Resonance is 'alive', it's likely Xenosapient, and incomprehensible to humans. I doubt that, given the immense and conflicting data it has on the world, it would have an accurate view of anything, really. It's safer if it isn't alive. If it isn't alive, then it can be influenced and used. And we all know that Horizon would be all over that shit in a heartbeat.
Ouroboros, you seem to be on the same page as I am. But, following your train of thought with a stray idea...If the Matrix operated on Knowledge, that'd imply that A.I.s were...Children, of the Matrix? In a literal sense. Deus being one of the oldest, and most influenced by its daddy. That there are so many differing AI indicates either a constantly shifting nature within the Matrix, or an enormous personality that is simply beyond mortal comprehension entirely - truly xenosapient.
Not right and wrong, true and false. And as I said before, the fallacy inherent to the Appeal to Popularity (that is, the ludicrous notion that more people believing something makes it more true) would not influence a force of knowledge - a force of belief, certainly, but not a force of knowledge. Thus, a whole bunch of people saying proposition X is true wouldn't move it, but actual evidence suggesting the truth of the same proposition could.
And the Matrix isn't the Resonance - the Resonance influences the Matrix, but is a distinct separate thing. One not "alive", per se, but at the same time not inert/inactive/etc. I'm at a loss to find a word that encapsulates such a thing, really. But it wouldn't have a "view". It would have knowledge. A view is subjective, and being subjective seems like it would be outside such a thing - both beyond it yet beneath it.
And as for Deus... How is he more influenced by the Matrix than Mirage/Maegara, exactly?
Magic isn't shaped by belief. It is shaped by thoughts. This is a small, but crucial, difference.
Beliefs are passive. They are just there. Once taken in, the conscious mind doesn't work with them too much. Very little mental energy is expended unless the believer actively examines her/his beliefs. But then, this isn't believing, this is thinking.
Thoughts are active. They are mental energy shaped and directed by the conscious mind. Thinking is actually very, very energy intensive and draining to the thinker (it's not much, but go ahead and do some higher math, physics, and philosophy/logic problems for a few hours and tell me it ISN'T draining).
It is this moving around and manipulating of mental energies that shapes the magical energies that exist just adjacent to the physical plane within the astral plane. In my previous example, shaping magical energy is like doing all those math, physics, and philosophy/logic problems for a few hours within the span of a second or two. THAT is what drain is.
As for fading, I would equate the effort required within the time required to something similar to magic working. I think there are similarities beyond just using a similar system to register and record drain/fading at work here. I think the devs did this intentionally.
EDIT: Also, magic doesn't pick right and wrong in Shadowrun. It doesn't work that way. It's just astral energy moving from the astral plane to the physical plane. It doesn't think, choose, or believe. Any more than rain falling from the sky thinks, chooses, or believes where it will fall.
I should begin by pointing out that you have wonderfully articulated the viewpoint of a hermetic mage; however, I must note that your theory has limited explanatory merit - specifically, it explains Logic Drain Traditions only (well, maybe Intuition, but certainly not Charisma).
And beliefs are not passive. Quite the opposite. Beliefs have an extremely powerful active influence upon thought (look up motivated cognition some time, it's a good example of this; so is cognitive dissonance in its own way). The conscious mind doesn't work very much on beliefs, but beliefs work a great deal upon the conscious mind. Though believe me, anyone who's done any serious marathon coding sessions is well aware that mental effort can be tiring (and there's a good deal of psychology to back that point up).
The similarities of Drain and Fading have to be intentional, but so too do their differences - most notably, you can magically Heal Fading. They are certainly similar, but they are clearly not the same thing.
And I never ascribed to magic the ability to select right and wrong, nor the ability to choose, think, or believe. In fact, that lack seems to me to be part of what explains the differences between the natures of the Toxic/Twisted and the Dissonant (note, for example, the effect of dead zones upon the Dissonant).
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Look, I have my personal opinions on how the Matrix and Magic work, and to be straight up, this ain't it. This is entertaining as an exercise, though, so ...
Regardless of definition, part of the point is that the truth value is a big part of the difference between Resonance and Dissonance.
However, I'd argue there's a difference between actually knowing something and believing you know something. And per this definition, would Resonance not be the most complete set of valid data that exists?
Still phone posting, so apologies for lack of detail.
You keep on insisting that Resonance actually can differentiate right from wrong. Data is data. It just is. If a few thousand, or million, pages, insist that a groundbreaking new theory hammers away gravity as a theory only Awakened have the power to disbelieve, then according to the Matrix, Mages should float. This, innately, would mean that Technomancers would be 'lighter' in the matrix, and unbound by coding specifications towards gravity.
What makes you think that the Resonance cannot? It has an opposite. Resonance would be 'all the data that fact-checks correct with the universe'. Dissonance would be 'all the data that fact-checks incorrect with the universe'. Resonance is fact; Dissonance is false. Or, if you will, Resonance is Data; Dissonance is False Data. If a few billion pages insist, and lead people to believe strongly, that people with magic should by default float, then people with magic still will not float by default - but the Dissonance gets stronger, and possibly the ability of people to think clearly and firmly would be affected, because it's everyone trying to believe a lie. (Well, since it already has, eh?)
If Resonance is 'alive', it's likely Xenosapient, and incomprehensible to humans. I doubt that, given the immense and conflicting data it has on the world, it would have an accurate view of anything, really. It's safer if it isn't alive. If it isn't alive, then it can be influenced and used. And we all know that Horizon would be all over that shit in a heartbeat.
Ouroboros, you seem to be on the same page as I am. But, following your train of thought with a stray idea...If the Matrix operated on Knowledge, that'd imply that A.I.s were...Children, of the Matrix? In a literal sense. Deus being one of the oldest, and most influenced by its daddy. That there are so many differing AI indicates either a constantly shifting nature within the Matrix, or an enormous personality that is simply beyond mortal comprehension entirely - truly xenosapient.
Don't buy into the idea that Deus is the biggest, best, baddest, etc. Yes, he was working on that, and yes, he was the most aggressive, but no, despite all his actions and how significant he made himself to be, he did not have all the information. He, too, was working on incomplete data - and was neither Resonance nor Dissonance. You want my opinion, the one you need to watch out for is Mirage - an AI that went literally decades without being noticed, who actually altered the way a mind worked without ever being in obvious contact with it. That's my opinion, though, so .... take it with some NaCl.
As for the rest of the argument, an attempt is being made to make absolute things that are not. Belief can be very, very active without being thought; thought is the analyzer, and one can believe incredibly strongly and, yes, actively without analyzing one's beliefs. At the same time, though thought can change belief, it often takes months and years to do so, for people will hold beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary, even to the point of the extreme - which is what we call madness. (To make matters worse, sometimes madness is highly functional.)
In any case. It's an interesting theory, but like most ready theories it falls down somewhat during the specifics.
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Look, I have my personal opinions on how the Matrix and Magic work, and to be straight up, this ain't it. This is entertaining as an exercise, though, so ...
See, that's the thing. I'm trying to get at the connection between Magic and Resonance (and whether or not Resonance is distinct from the Matrix), how they're similar, how they're different, and why. What I've presented here is my particular theory on the subject, and I think it is or at least has the potential to be a strong theory; all the same I'd love to see other people posting their theories in here. Might be an even more fun to argue their relative merits, and we might even e able to find a synthesis that creates a better one.
Regardless of definition, part of the point is that the truth value is a big part of the difference between Resonance and Dissonance.
However, I'd argue there's a difference between actually knowing something and believing you know something. And per this definition, would Resonance not be the most complete set of valid data that exists?
Still phone posting, so apologies for lack of detail.
You keep on insisting that Resonance actually can differentiate right from wrong. Data is data. It just is. If a few thousand, or million, pages, insist that a groundbreaking new theory hammers away gravity as a theory only Awakened have the power to disbelieve, then according to the Matrix, Mages should float. This, innately, would mean that Technomancers would be 'lighter' in the matrix, and unbound by coding specifications towards gravity.
What makes you think that the Resonance cannot? It has an opposite. Resonance would be 'all the data that fact-checks correct with the universe'. Dissonance would be 'all the data that fact-checks incorrect with the universe'. Resonance is fact; Dissonance is false. Or, if you will, Resonance is Data; Dissonance is False Data. If a few billion pages insist, and lead people to believe strongly, that people with magic should by default float, then people with magic still will not float by default - but the Dissonance gets stronger, and possibly the ability of people to think clearly and firmly would be affected, because it's everyone trying to believe a lie. (Well, since it already has, eh?)
This is pretty much entirely what I'm getting at.
If Resonance is 'alive', it's likely Xenosapient, and incomprehensible to humans. I doubt that, given the immense and conflicting data it has on the world, it would have an accurate view of anything, really. It's safer if it isn't alive. If it isn't alive, then it can be influenced and used. And we all know that Horizon would be all over that shit in a heartbeat.
Ouroboros, you seem to be on the same page as I am. But, following your train of thought with a stray idea...If the Matrix operated on Knowledge, that'd imply that A.I.s were...Children, of the Matrix? In a literal sense. Deus being one of the oldest, and most influenced by its daddy. That there are so many differing AI indicates either a constantly shifting nature within the Matrix, or an enormous personality that is simply beyond mortal comprehension entirely - truly xenosapient.
Don't buy into the idea that Deus is the biggest, best, baddest, etc. Yes, he was working on that, and yes, he was the most aggressive, but no, despite all his actions and how significant he made himself to be, he did not have all the information. He, too, was working on incomplete data - and was neither Resonance nor Dissonance. You want my opinion, the one you need to watch out for is Mirage - an AI that went literally decades without being noticed, who actually altered the way a mind worked without ever being in obvious contact with it. That's my opinion, though, so .... take it with some NaCl.
As for the rest of the argument, an attempt is being made to make absolute things that are not. Belief can be very, very active without being thought; thought is the analyzer, and one can believe incredibly strongly and, yes, actively without analyzing one's beliefs. At the same time, though thought can change belief, it often takes months and years to do so, for people will hold beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary, even to the point of the extreme - which is what we call madness. (To make matters worse, sometimes madness is highly functional.)
In any case. It's an interesting theory, but like most ready theories it falls down somewhat during the specifics.
I'd be curious to see specifically what you consider to be the weaknesses. As I said, it's likely the theory has a lot of room for further refinement, especially given that until this thread it sort of lived in my own head only - and for most of my posts here, I've been endeavouring to explain the theory.
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Perhaps, rather than trying to explain bits of your theory into my own view, (Stupid idea, really, but interesting debate) I should explain how I consider it to work.
A friend of mine, back in DnD, came up with a view of how Arcane Magic worked. It makes a whole lot of sense.
'The Weave'. If the infinite reaches of the multiverse are a single tapestry, then Arcane Magic is the thread that holds it together.
I go a bit further with that. If you're twisting this thread this way and that, it's going to get bent out of its place. (Mana Storms, UGE, anyone?) It can be, eventually, shifted back into order, but that takes interference, time, and effort beyond what it took to open things up in the first place. While that thread is out of place, there's a 'hole'. If, say, that tapestry was packed in a heap with a few thousand others in a warehouse, and an adjacent tapestry had some thread out of place...
Hey, look. Shedim.
Resonance, then, would be technology so advanced as to be able to perfectly (Or nearly) mimic the way the universe itself works. Perhaps because Mana is affecting the unseen ebb and flow of data, but, in a way, humans have created a 'tapestry' within their own. Technomancers are in tune with this. Perhaps they can be considered 'moderators' or 'administrators' fixing bugs in the system.
If Magicians and Adepts are unconsciously 'aware' of the 'hole', of the loose thread, and able to take advantage of it, they are essentially granted the ability to eventually fix the hole. They are the Tapestry's self-repair system.
Resonance is a newer force. It's brand new, and buggy. It doesn't need to be 'repaired', it needs to be 'upgraded' and 'improved'. Functionally, many things that Technos and Mages can do are similar, in their respective worlds, but for different purposes.
Much like your theory, RHat, quite unpolished. Some parallels exist, here and there. Your take?
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Long time ago, in the thread far far away:)
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1142.0
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Perhaps, rather than trying to explain bits of your theory into my own view, (Stupid idea, really, but interesting debate) I should explain how I consider it to work.
A friend of mine, back in DnD, came up with a view of how Arcane Magic worked. It makes a whole lot of sense.
'The Weave'. If the infinite reaches of the multiverse are a single tapestry, then Arcane Magic is the thread that holds it together.
I go a bit further with that. If you're twisting this thread this way and that, it's going to get bent out of its place. (Mana Storms, UGE, anyone?) It can be, eventually, shifted back into order, but that takes interference, time, and effort beyond what it took to open things up in the first place. While that thread is out of place, there's a 'hole'. If, say, that tapestry was packed in a heap with a few thousand others in a warehouse, and an adjacent tapestry had some thread out of place...
Hey, look. Shedim.
Resonance, then, would be technology so advanced as to be able to perfectly (Or nearly) mimic the way the universe itself works. Perhaps because Mana is affecting the unseen ebb and flow of data, but, in a way, humans have created a 'tapestry' within their own. Technomancers are in tune with this. Perhaps they can be considered 'moderators' or 'administrators' fixing bugs in the system.
If Magicians and Adepts are unconsciously 'aware' of the 'hole', of the loose thread, and able to take advantage of it, they are essentially granted the ability to eventually fix the hole. They are the Tapestry's self-repair system.
Resonance is a newer force. It's brand new, and buggy. It doesn't need to be 'repaired', it needs to be 'upgraded' and 'improved'. Functionally, many things that Technos and Mages can do are similar, in their respective worlds, but for different purposes.
Much like your theory, RHat, quite unpolished. Some parallels exist, here and there. Your take?
A few things.
First, The Weave is actually the canon explanation of Arcane Magic in the Forgotten Realms setting. Complete with having a "second tapestry", specifically the Shadow Weave.
Secondly, stuff like UGE isn't things being out of place. Elves and Dwarves are part of how things are supposed to be, not some "error" of magic. The same is true of Goblinization.
Further, advanced technology isn't really (to me) a satisfactory explanation for the Resonance for a fairly specific reason: No one made it. The Resonance isn't, by any evidence, designed and built - which is precisely what an "advanced technology" explanation suggests. That said, the tapestry metaphor strikes me as a pretty good demonstration of a number of phenomena. It may well be that as the mana level rises and the physical world draws closer to others, perhaps the membrane is made more porous in this place or that - corresponding not to locations in the world, but to its borders with certain others - and that this is caused by various things in the physical world. It could well be that the Matrix, and computing more generally, created that hole through which Resonance could enter the world, but its ability to do so is somehow limited... That might work a good deal better than Resonance simply being passively present until it has something to latch onto.
Overall, you've got some good ideas in there - I don't think, however, that it has quite the explanatory power to stand on its own as is.
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Quick bit: I didn't describe hermetic traditions. My explanation was completely tradition neutral (assuming that feelings and emotions are a more primal form of thought energy, of course YMMV). This is, IMO, the basic explanation of the interaction of mental energy and mental states with the energy of the astral.
Beliefs are not active, they are passive. They are a checkpoint, an assumption, a branch on a decision tree within the mind/brain. When a thought hits this branch, the brain makes a comparison between the thought and the belief and determines whether or not the thought is compatible with the belief (REALLY oversimplifying this, but hey). Thus the belief is just there. It directs thoughts, but unless and until the person actively examines the belief, it will remain in the mind as a branch in the decision tree.
Does it shape what the person does, how they act, and how they think? Sure it does. Just like the banks of a river determine the course of a river. However, rivers tend to be more malleable than beliefs in humans (oooo, BURN). Seriously, though, beliefs can be altered by experience, but are rarely truly changed until the thinker examines the belief itself. Thus, the belief is fairly fixed and, therefore, passive within the thinkers mind.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
See, you say you agree with Gun Nut, but your explanation reads as being more in line with the idea of magic as a force of belief - you may think about it to use it, but you seem to be suggesting that belief is defining what you can do; that you have to believe in it to do it with magic a la The Dresden Files.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
See, you say you agree with Gun Nut, but your explanation reads as being more in line with the idea of magic as a force of belief - you may think about it to use it, but you seem to be suggesting that belief is defining what you can do; that you have to believe in it to do it with magic a la The Dresden Files.
Yes, you must believe in something for it to be possible with magic, that is why Willpower is used with all mages. However, no amount of raw belief causes magic to happen on its own. You must channel the energies actively, envisioning your outcome and then causing it to happen. The only time magic occurs by belief alone is spontaneous magic.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
See, you say you agree with Gun Nut, but your explanation reads as being more in line with the idea of magic as a force of belief - you may think about it to use it, but you seem to be suggesting that belief is defining what you can do; that you have to believe in it to do it with magic a la The Dresden Files.
Yes, you must believe in something for it to be possible with magic, that is why Willpower is used with all mages. However, no amount of raw belief causes magic to happen on its own. You must channel the energies actively, envisioning your outcome and then causing it to happen. The only time magic occurs by belief alone is spontaneous magic.
Saying its worked through thought does not, to my mind, make it a force of thought. And casting spells/summoning spirits isn't the extent of metahumanity's influence upon the manasphere.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
See, you say you agree with Gun Nut, but your explanation reads as being more in line with the idea of magic as a force of belief - you may think about it to use it, but you seem to be suggesting that belief is defining what you can do; that you have to believe in it to do it with magic a la The Dresden Files.
Yes, you must believe in something for it to be possible with magic, that is why Willpower is used with all mages. However, no amount of raw belief causes magic to happen on its own. You must channel the energies actively, envisioning your outcome and then causing it to happen. The only time magic occurs by belief alone is spontaneous magic.
Saying its worked through thought does not, to my mind, make it a force of thought. And casting spells/summoning spirits isn't the extent of metahumanity's influence upon the manasphere.
I think I need more detail to illustrate your view, or we won't get anywhere. I am not fully understanding how it is that thought has no place in magic. Can you be more detailed about your view on what belief is or something? Maybe quote some of that psychology? I think that your belief shapes thought, and thought shapes magic. Are you saying that you think magic is shaped BEFORE the magician ever actually decides to act? It is an instinctive reaction based on the beliefs of the magician?
Alternately, we can agree to disagree and let it go.
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So, how do you fit your "fatigue of thought" drain notion into a Charisma tradition?
And beliefs are not truly passive. There is quite a bit of psychology to demonstrate this. Hence why I suggested looking motivated cognition - an effect by which beliefs actively control your perception and interpretation of information before and after you actually think about any of it.
My personal explanation follows.
A shaman envisions the natural forces of the spirit world questing outward to contact the specific spirit or form the pattern of mana, then pull it back to you. The energy flows out of you as you envision what you believe can and should happen - your raw will and belief in what you do shaped by your thought and the training you received from your mentor and the power instilled in you by your totem.
In other words, I agree with the Gun Nut on this one.
See, you say you agree with Gun Nut, but your explanation reads as being more in line with the idea of magic as a force of belief - you may think about it to use it, but you seem to be suggesting that belief is defining what you can do; that you have to believe in it to do it with magic a la The Dresden Files.
Yes, you must believe in something for it to be possible with magic, that is why Willpower is used with all mages. However, no amount of raw belief causes magic to happen on its own. You must channel the energies actively, envisioning your outcome and then causing it to happen. The only time magic occurs by belief alone is spontaneous magic.
Saying its worked through thought does not, to my mind, make it a force of thought. And casting spells/summoning spirits isn't the extent of metahumanity's influence upon the manasphere.
I think I need more detail to illustrate your view, or we won't get anywhere. I am not fully understanding how it is that thought has no place in magic. Can you be more detailed about your view on what belief is or something? Maybe quote some of that psychology? I think that your belief shapes thought, and thought shapes magic. Are you saying that you think magic is shaped BEFORE the magician ever actually decides to act? It is an instinctive reaction based on the beliefs of the magician?
Alternately, we can agree to disagree and let it go.
Ah, I think I see the misunderstanding. I'm trying to get at the fundamental nature of the thing - I don't disagree that though is a core component of how the force is manipulated (that would be ludicrous), rather, I'm saying that the force that is being manipulated is itself a force of belief; belief defines the nature of and shape of magic long before though becomes involved. Thus does the tradition start to create limits for how a given Magician can manipulate magic.
Basically, there's a difference between the method by which something is manipulated and the very nature of the thing.
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Thought is shaped by belief, but it's passive. Like the shape of a fluid is defined by the container it is placed within or travels through. The fluid is doing the work, the container is defining its limits and direction. But it is not actively doing anything.
Is that a bit more clear?
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So we can say that belief predetermines the shapes that your magic CAN take, but thought is the spark that takes your belief and lets it affect the world? Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.
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So we can say that belief predetermines the shapes that your magic CAN take, but thought is the spark that takes your belief and lets it affect the world? Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.
That's not a bad way of putting it. Magic exists before thought moves it, so it cannot be a force of thought. It exists outside of a magician doing anything with it. Belief individually shapes what your magic can or cannot do (you move it through thought, but it is not a force of thought), and collectively shapes the wider world of magic and the metaplanes.
Gun Nut: You're going to need to provide some argument for your notion that belief is passive, because it cannot be taken as a given.
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Not "passive" as in "does nothing," more passive as in "doesn't jump around doing stuff by itself." Belief is the touchstone of thought, it shapes and is shaped by it, but it is more a list of criteria within the mind that is used to determine choices as opposed to a thing that wanders about rearranging the furniture.
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Belief has a profound impact on unconscious processes. Just because you're not distinctly aware of the effect doesn't mean its not there - conscious thought is just the tip of the mental iceberg.
In any case, though, I'm talking about something well beyond the bounds of how spells are cast - what magic is, rather than simply how it is manipulated. Are you suggesting that thought influences the shape of the metaplanes? It seems to me that, especially with the impact of symbolism within magic, thought is an insufficient explanation.
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It's not just metahuman thought that floats out there.
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It's not just metahuman thought that floats out there.
Which doesn't change the basic facts of the question - in fact, I did not at any point limit my criticism in that manner.
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It's limited in that it only applies thought that you understand (human thought).
While this is a bit artsy and dodgy, there are countless entities in the astral that often only barely notice metahumanity, if at all. They impress their thoughts upon the space around them. And they do not conform to any pattern metahumanity is(currently) familiar with. They do so in ways humans do not understand.
And, yes, thought does have an impact upon the metaplanes. Again, it isn't just metahuman thought, although that is the kind we are most familiar with. That symbolism that works in 2074 is not the same symbolism that existed in the 4th world. Some of it is similar, yes, but most of it is not. Metahuman thoughts, habits, and patterns (or expectations, that might be more accurate) are impressed upon astral space. Repeated actions wear the energy into a pattern that can be discerned by those with the appropriate abilities. What happened previously is different that what happens now (in the 6th world). It is similar, but not quite the same, because metahumanity's thoughts or patterns of behavior are different. (One could say beliefs, but as I have stated earlier, that is indirect.)
I could go on some more, but I have to get up at 430 am. We can discuss more later, if you like.
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I'd be quite happy to continue this later. Though, I'm at this point trying to find a differentiating aspect to look at to make it a little easier to contrast the theories we're forwarding - I'm not sure, off hand, what sort of observable differences there would be between magic as a force of thought and magic as a force of belief (where does Resonance fit into your line of thinking, by the way?).