Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: MadBear on <02-13-13/2051:42>
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I've come across a reference or two about 're-chambering pistols to take a different caliber', but cannot seem to find the actual rules for making that modification.
The clearest reference is in Augmentation, P 128, but only in passing, there is no mention of re-chambering for larger caliber ammo.
Because, yeah, a Ruger Superwarhawk doesn't do enough damage...
So, can anyone point me in the direction of a real live RAW? Or even a house rule?
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There's High Power Chambering, which is in War.
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Awesome! Thank you.
Looking at the stats, high powered rounds have a 20F availability. Not exactly something you want to be caught with(because a Ruger with Increased Cylindar, Ammo Select, and Firing Selection SA won't attract notice...).
So, what about simply re-chambering for a higher caliber? As a GM could figure out how to work that, but it's nice to have a RAW to fall back on. All those wonderful weapon mods, and not one listing of upping the caliber?
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There are no caliber rules. At all. Zip, zilch, nada. All SMG's use the same type of rounds, all Assault Rifles use a different round from that but still all the same, etc.
If you want your weapon to do more damage, you need high-power chambering. End of story. Part of this is a balance perspective.
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Awesome! Thank you.
Looking at the stats, high powered rounds have a 20F availability. Not exactly something you want to be caught with(because a Ruger with Increased Cylindar, Ammo Select, and Firing Selection SA won't attract notice...).
So, what about simply re-chambering for a higher caliber? As a GM could figure out how to work that, but it's nice to have a RAW to fall back on. All those wonderful weapon mods, and not one listing of upping the caliber?
High Power Chambering is all there is. Period.
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Petitioning GM for house rules it is.
Thank you.
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Petitioning GM for house rules it is.
Thank you.
I know if I were your GM, I would deny that petition. It's unnecessary added complication for zero real benefit.
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Petitioning GM for house rules it is.
Thank you.
Do what you want, but my advice: Don't. You don't want to be the guy who petitions the GM for non-balanced house-rules - especially because when you want one that isn't a balance issue, or that actually corrects an issue, it would be that much more difficult to get.
And were I your GM, you'd be getting an answer along the lines of "hell no". And, well, any time you get me and Guns to agree on something...
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And, well, any time you get me and Guns to agree on something...
Definitely...I'm starting to think that the End Times are drawing near...
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And, well, any time you get me and Guns to agree on something...
Definitely...I'm starting to think that the End Times are drawing near...
Especially since I'm in firm agreement with you two.
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You could reason it out that the ammunition for the most part is as optimized as it can be for those weapons, I would expect that by 2050 most weapons would already be using high performance high velocity ammunition like the .357 SIG, 10mm Auto, and 5.7x28mm. So any caliber change isn't going to mean a measurable improvement (in the abstracted game terms) over just using better suited ammunition for the job, or having a better designed gun in the first place.
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I miss .45 ACP. :'(
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was dispensed by people with weak wrists.
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Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.
Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
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So basically you want the advantage of explosive rounds without the restrictions those impose. While there is a sort of precedent for this with heavy pistols what do you do with assault rifles or SMGs where there is no such precedent? Start adding it? Then you get SMGs that do assault rifle damage as standard and assault rifles that do battle rifle damage as standard. And balance goes out the window as everything scales up. (Cuz if you do it then everyone else will too). It sounds like an upscale in complexity without really adding anything to the game.
'Oh your gun takes special ammo? Well I'm not sure where to find that stuff.' says your fixer. I don't see how non-standard ammo would be easier to get than some of the other options already available. The military try to avoid this very thing by standardizing their ammo as much as possible because it is a pain in the ass to manage a bunch of different calibres that all do basically the same thing.
Lets flip this a bit and ask if you are willing to take the disadvantages that go with a bigger calibre. Smaller magazine capacity (bigger rounds equals less space in the mag) and fewer rounds carried (increased weight) along with increased recoil (cuz your pistol was never designed for that round) are all things that go along with higher calibre. So would you impose the negative aspects along with the good?
If you want it for your game, go ahead but most here will not agree that any 'uniqueness' it adds is worth the hassle.
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Those are excellent points Mantis.
Continuing on at this point for the sake of argument, not because I have not been convinced or am trying to convince others.
Yes, as a GM I would impose those limits, and as a player I would accept them. Those are reasonable restrictions, decreased ammo capacity and additional recoil.
As for the ad infimum up-scaling, we already have that. SMGs are pretty much just big machine pistols(with the advantage of more accessories/mods); Assault Rifles are pretty much just bigger SMGs(with even more accessories and mods), or rather carbines are just smaller assault riffles that fit into the SMG class; and Battle Rifles are just scaled up Assault Rifles. Not everybody is going to mod their weapon in such a way, for the same reason not everybody carries APDS ammo or mods their heavy pistol for Burst Fire; some can't be bothered, some don't care, some don't think it's worth the hassle or expense. But some of us do, and we like to have the option. Now, I've already done some pretty serious mods in my current campaign, and am not looking to actually do this. If was, and my GM told me 'no', I would accept that and move on without complaint.
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Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.
Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?
Nope, because every weapon is different, even today.
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Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.
Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?
Nope, because every weapon is different, even today.
Well, not EVERY weapon. NATO and the Warsaw Pact standardized magazines (which are called "Clips" in Shadowrun) for each side to ease logistics.
Those groups, however, are very, very dead by the 2050s, and every company has their own methods again, just like the bad old days. Why each firearms company doesn't have a unique caliber (again, like the bad old days) is likely momentum from the Cold War when standardization of ammunition was a key point.
That's, of course, talking about purely military small arms. Civilian ones are a hodge-podge of a dogs dinner.
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Remember, MadBear, that whatever you convince your GM to allow for you can be used against you.
While I would love more options and realism in the weapon system, I've actually tried to encourage my GM to avoid WAR!, because I don't want the Bad Guys using that stuff.
There's usually more mooks and villians than PCs. Whatever tips the balance of power away from defense hurts the players more than the NPCs.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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As for the ad infimum up-scaling, we already have that. SMGs are pretty much just big machine pistols(with the advantage of more accessories/mods); Assault Rifles are pretty much just bigger SMGs(with even more accessories and mods), or rather carbines are just smaller assault riffles that fit into the SMG class; and Battle Rifles are just scaled up Assault Rifles. Not everybody is going to mod their weapon in such a way, for the same reason not everybody carries APDS ammo or mods their heavy pistol for Burst Fire; some can't be bothered, some don't care, some don't think it's worth the hassle or expense. But some of us do, and we like to have the option. Now, I've already done some pretty serious mods in my current campaign, and am not looking to actually do this. If was, and my GM told me 'no', I would accept that and move on without complaint.
For the sake of argument then, the difference comes in that SMGs are more easily hidden, acquired and in some areas less frowned upon than an assault rifle. So putting the rifle's firepower in an SMG frame makes for some balance issues. At the moment you can't really hide your assault rifle but you can an SMG with the right clothing. Assault rifles have full auto which most battle rifles do not. So scaling your assault rifle to do battle rifle damage and full auto while still being able to get all the recoil comp adds balance issues as well.
The problem with most game mods like this is that they don't always get a full look at all the balance issues. Often someone will just look at, for example, damage, and say 'hey it's not that bad. X is already like this anyway.' What they often fail to do is look at how that weapon's damage is balanced against the many other factors involved (ammo cap, inherent recoil comp, mods, availability, range, concealability, etc) and how that can throw things off.
If I can get all the firepower of an assault rifle in an SMG frame, why bother with assault rifles? They cost more generally, are much harder to hide and if firepower is equal, the only advantage they offer is range and maybe ammo cap. Yes you can do something like this already with specialized ammo but that ammo is expensive and hard to come by, as a balancing factor. Maybe you got a licence for your Ingram Smartgun X but do you have one for the APDS or EX-Explosive you have loaded in it? Not likely. So you need to decide when to load that and if the risk is worth it. Adding a calibre mod that removes that from the equation throws off the balance.
As has been pointed out, realistically there should be different calibres for firearms but to keep the game simple enough and balanced enough there aren't. Some elements of reality get removed to make the game a game rather than a reality simulator. :)
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You can make an AR pretty concealable, with the right modifications.
My Merc has one with the Conceal rating of a holdout pistol.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it. Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback. Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it. Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback. Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.
Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it. Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback. Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.
Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.
Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it. Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback. Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.
Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.
Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.
True, and some (I dare think many) do, but some times having it from creation isn't a bad thing (representing being able to get it with the quality). I don't mind any of the rest of the stuff on the mod or the ammo, I just don't think "F" is quite appropriate and think "R" is more so.
Now with the availability on the Suprathyroid Gland...oi...I just think 20F is ridiculous. 10R or 12R would be better, IMO.
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I don't think what I was looking for is unbalanced at all.
High Powered Rounds have a +2 DV and a -1 Ap, which is pretty big, though they are highly illegal-20F availability. Re-chambering relatively accepted with an availability of 8R. I was looking for something more along the lines of +1DV with a more acceptable attainability, something you could carry around with you on the streets.
Look at the Taurus Multi-6 in Arsenal, it's a Light Pistol that can take either Light Pistol rounds OR Heavy Pistol rounds, for either a 4p or 5p DV. So why can't you re-chamber a Heavy Pistol to take 6p rounds instead of 5p? The Ruger already does 6p, so there is precedence for 6p pistols. How is that possible unbalanced? My suggestion is a lot more reasonable than forcing High Powered Rounds. Yes, yes, I know, I could just use explosive rounds. That's not the point.
What you all are suggesting is that if one of your players came to you with this suggestion, that you would turn it down and insist they modify their Ruger Superwarhawk to take High Powered Rounds instead? DV 8 with -3AP? And you call THAT balanced?
As a player, I enjoy having something small like that unique to my character, like a signature gun. As a GM, if it makes my player happy and will not unbalance the game, I would allow it. If he wanted the High Powered Rounds, he would have to deal with having Forbidden/illegal rounds; and if he wanted just a higher caliber, he would have to deal with a Restricted mod, and had better have a fake permit.
Another thing I do as a GM, is if my players use tech like High Powered Rounds or Combat Rifles, I let my NPCs use them too. If my players never bother with such things, I don't either. Keeps the game balanced. But if they want a small advantage like I am suggesting, yeah, I'll allow it., and while I won't have Loan Star start modding their weapons the same way, you can bet your tusks I'll have them notice that BFG you're packing.
The balancing element is the drawback of it - the fact that you can't just carry it around and that you're screwed if you should get caught with it. Same reason explosive rounds, which offer the exact boost you seek, have a similar drawback. Getting the damage boost without the drawbacks is a serious balance issue, full stop.
Considering that in character generation it requires one of the possible three uses of Restricted Gear to get the ammo, it probably wouldn't hurt matters that much for the "F" to be dropped or changed to "R". And after creation, if you don't have a Face that is close to that "Pornomancer" crap, it won't be that easy to find the ammo then.
Which should probably be taken as an indicator that you should be considering High Powered Chambering as something to get later on, rather than a chargen thing.
True, and some (I dare think many) do, but some times having it from creation isn't a bad thing (representing being able to get it with the quality). I don't mind any of the rest of the stuff on the mod or the ammo, I just don't think "F" is quite appropriate and think "R" is more so.
Depending on character background, I could see having some for a sniper rifle, though the character would be treating them as a pretty precious resource.
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Spare Clips: Extra ammunition clips come unloaded; they can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon and are not interchangeable from weapon to weapon even within the same class.
Ever find it weird that ammunition is standardised, but spare clips aren't?
Not really. I think of the "clip" as being part of the gun, even if you have spares. It has to fit smoothly into a gun that might be a wildly different size and shape from another of the same class. I would be willing to house-rule compatibility between certain weapons from the same manufacturer on a case-by-case basis, but otherwise I think it makes sense.
Ammo on the other hand is not typically designed specifically along side the gun that will be firing it (except in the case of rare prototypes or hand-made art/weapon pieces). A gun (and its "clip") are almost always designed around an existing caliber of ammunition, to fire bullets made by a wide range of different manufacturers according to a industry standards.
It is weird that the AK-97 Carbine and the AK-97 apparently fire very different ammo and have different sized "clips" that are not compatible.
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that's where GM fiat comes into play. Either that or there are intermediate carbine rounds made for SMG and carbine type weapons that are comparable in length to assault rifle rounds but still of different case diameters. After all the first sub machine guns were called Machine Carbines, if I remember right.
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As a former military weapon smith I can tell you that re-chambering a weapon is a real PITA.
Now, there are kits available IRL to reduce the caliber of a weapon, mostly these include a new magazine, barrel and some other parts along with instructions. They take a few hours to install and don't much make for a better weapon. The U.S. Navy used M1911s re-chambered from .45ACP to .22 to give new recruits a general feel for firearms.
However, increasing the caliber is more problematic than buying a new firearm that already uses the desired caliber. I personally wouldn't trust a shadowsmith to handle the engineering necessary to handle the stresses involved with a larger round.
And IIRC, the Light pistol which can fire a Heavy pistol round is a revolver that can hold either a single Heavy Pistol round OR its capacity in Light Pistol ammunition. So using it as an example to allow re-chambering to increase the damage of any weapon is ludicrous in the least.
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I can see the point of making different calibers matter in certain genres that emphasize isolation and low resources, but Shadowrun doesn't make either of those a high point.
Personally in Shadowrun, I've actually cut down the number of ammo types to make things even simpler. I use the following list
Ammo Types -- Weapon Types that use it
Light Pistol -- Hold Out Pistols, Light Pistols, Machine Pistols
Heavy Pistol -- Heavy Pistol, SMG
Assault Rifle -- Assault Rifle, LMG
Sport Rifle -- Sport Rifle, Battle Rifle, MMG
Sniper Rifle -- Sniper Rifle, HMG
Unless the weapon specifies a different ammo type (such as the SMGs that fire AR rounds) I let ammo shift around like that. Specialty weapons use the same ammunition as normal like shotguns or assault cannons.
And IIRC, the Light pistol which can fire a Heavy pistol round is a revolver that can hold either a single Heavy Pistol round OR its capacity in Light Pistol ammunition. So using it as an example to allow re-chambering to increase the damage of any weapon is ludicrous in the least.
The Multi-6 holds the same number of rounds either way, it just fires slower with heavy pistol ammunition (SS instead of SA). It's works essentially the same way as .38/.357 would.
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Only, have you seen that cylinder assembly? It's like something out of a spanish museum.
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On the .38/.357? No, but I do think This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver) has a pretty interesting cylinder assembly.
I don't think there is much reason to increase the DV on an SMG to match that of an Assault Rifle. Assault riffles just have so much more room for accessories. Yes, they do have greater concealabity, which is about the only advantage an SMG has over ARs. If you really wanted to be nasty, you could re-chamber one up for High Powered rounds. There is nothing to stop you from doing that, it's in the rules, and if you wanted to go through the expense and trouble, go ahead. And risk getting caught. A good GM will use that to regulate offensively powerful weapons. Yes, even for my hand cannon.
What I was suggesting was a bit more moderate. +1 DV with reduced ammo capacity and increased recoil. And yes, it would allow you then load higher caliber Ex rounds too... just don't get caught with that gun. At that point it's not much different than HP rounds.
To me, at least, it's not always about min/maxing the best DV for a gun. It's about what your character wants, likes, has wet dreams about. So while re-chambering my BFG Ruger to take HP rounds would give me some serious stats(8P DV with -3 AP), the idea of just carrying around a Ruger that's holds higher caliber rounds(5 cy instead of 6 cy) has a lot more appeal.
So the next question is, if a gun IS re-chambered to take HP rounds, is that ALL it can take? Or could you load Flechette or SnS rounds too? The gun in question has the Ammo Select mod, and usually carries two or three types of rounds.
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Which one, the Mateba or the Webley? Either way, you stumbled upon my favourite revolvers, so I do have to kill you now.
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MadBear, as far as I know rechambering for high power rounds means you can no longer use any of the other types of special ammo. Rules are on pg 156 of WAR!.
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Oh, yup, there it is. Missed that part. Damn. I think I prefer the flexibility of APDS, Flechette, and SnS in the cylinder.
I do then have to ask about this: 'High-power rounds in fict a –2 dice pool penalty when red due to excess recoil.' So, does that mean recoil is doubled? At first it appears that the -2 is applied to EVERY shot, including the first, which makes no sense. But then, if it was meant to be applied to each round after the first, then why not simply double uncompensated recoil like with Heavy Weapons? Or does HP recoil increase at a rate of -2 dice per shot instead of -1, and recoil still functions normally(ie Custom Grip removes 1 pt of penalty, Gasvent II removes 2 pt of penalty, etc)? In the latter case, a Heavy Pistol with a Custom Grip would suffer no penalty on the first shot, but would suffer a net -1 on the second(-2 for second HP round, Custom Grip removes 1 pt of penalty)?
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High-powered rounds inflict a flat -2 every time you pull the trigger. In SS, that's a -2. In SA, that's -2 on the first, -3 on the second. In BF, that's -4 on the first, -7 on the second (recoil being cumulative, afterall), and so on. Oh, and because it is a gray area, it is GM's call whether recoil compensation helps to eliminate that -2 penalty or not.
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Basically from a bigger boom than the weapon's frame was designed to handle. Basically, how a .44 Magnum has a bigger kick than a .45ACP.
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As a former military weapon smith I can tell you that re-chambering a weapon is a real PITA.
Now, there are kits available IRL to reduce the caliber of a weapon, mostly these include a new magazine, barrel and some other parts along with instructions. They take a few hours to install and don't much make for a better weapon. The U.S. Navy used M1911s re-chambered from .45ACP to .22 to give new recruits a general feel for firearms.
However, increasing the caliber is more problematic than buying a new firearm that already uses the desired caliber. I personally wouldn't trust a shadowsmith to handle the engineering necessary to handle the stresses involved with a larger round.
You can get AR-15 uppers in wide range of calibers and swapping one in doesn't take much work at all as far as i know.
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I understand and completely agree with the reasoning for the -2 recoil, but not for the first shot. That makes no sense at all. If you've not even pulled the trigger yet, how could the gun move, buck, kick-back, etc? Once you've fired the first shot, THEN there should be a recoil penalty. Unless the reasoning is that the extra force of the high powered charge shifts the barrel as the bullet is still traveling down it...
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The reason for the extra penalty is because the round has more kick than a weapon that size normally has, which makes it harder to keep on target.
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The reason for the extra penalty is because the round has more kick than a weapon that size normally has, which makes it harder to keep on target.
Marlboro: "You know, that gun costs about two dollars every time you fire it. That's two bucks a bullet."
Harley Davidson: "Well how many'd I hit?"
Marlboro: "You spent twelve dollars and didn't hit a goddamn thing. I nailed one and it cost about four and a quarter."
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MadBear, don't apply the recoil to the first shot, just as you would for any gun. Recoil before you have shot at all makes zero sense. Apply the penalty for all subsequent shots fired as normal. In a pistol or other SA weapon this means your second shot suffers a -2 uncompensated penalty (comp should work as normal and nothing in the description leads me to think otherwise).
How you want to interpret that recoil for BF and FA is up to you though. The wording could be essentially that it doubles recoil or it could be the way Mirikon says it does. You can always play test it and see which way you like better.
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The rule is that it applies to the first shot. It is unclear whether or not RAW is that the penalty is recoil or not. If you judge that applying on the first shot is inconsistent with being recoil, then you need to rule that the penalty is not recoil.
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I was always under the conception that the -2 was not recoil but just a -2 period. So a smartlink would override it, but a muzzle break wouldn't. I don't think it'd be too broken either way, but that's just the impression I got from the text. I have no idea how you would get the idea that it DOUBLEs recoil though.
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High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fi red due to excess recoil. pg 156 WAR!
How you can interpret it as anything other than recoil? And since it is recoil it should follow the rules for such. Recoil comp works on it and it only comes into effect after the first shot. Nothing about it applying any other way. Where does the confusion come in?
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I suppose the text for suffers extra recoil doesn't come up much on gear. So it's just a straight up cumulative recoil penalty then?
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The -2 is not a recoil modifier like with the number of bullets fired, but a "this round kicks too hard" thing. You get the penalty regardless, no matter how many rounds are fired in a pass. Whether Recoil Compensation affects the penalty or not is a gray area under the rules, however under even a relatively moderate reading of the rules, I would say that recoil compensation would not help with the penalty.
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'Recoil is the backward momentum of a gun when it is discharged. In technical terms, the recoil caused by the gun exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile and exhaust gasses, according to Newton's third law.'
By definition, this -2 penalty is recoil. It's more than usual because there is more force than the gun is designed to handle. I get that. But it should in no way apply to the first round fired. Again, the additional force of the projectile and gasses exiting the barrel would have to push the gun out of position as the bullet is still in the barrel, and considering the high velocity of such a projectile, I find that hard to believe. Recoil works by adding a cumulative penalty because each shot moves the barrel slightly out of position. If the gun 'kicks to hard', then would not a shoulder pad and stock counter that? That would be recoil comp in action.
Now, as a GM I would look at this as a limiting/balance factor, not a realism one. I would not want people walking around with HP pistols or SMGs, so I would very much play up the Forbidden factor, and make them very, very hard to get. Expensive, too. Not something you want to toss away like those cheap and easy to get APDS rounds(which for my money, are more effective than HP rounds on a cost v return basis). HP rounds would be something the sniper would use. And because of that, I would not apply the -2 to the first shot, but to each addition one. I would pretty much end up doubling the recoil BEFORE comp is applied. -2 per additional shot each initiative pass. This is a take aim and geek that mother fragger kind of shot, not empty the magazine kind of shot.
This might be RAW v RAI debate, but I for one just do not see how the extra kick could possibly affect the first shot.
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Nor do I. It is called recoil and therefore should fall under the rules that affect such. Simple.
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The way it's written, though, it applies to EVERY shot, even the first.
Which makes no sense.
-k
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Unless I see a post from Mr. Hardy saying that RC applies to the penalty, I'll probably rule that it doesn't, mainly because it doesn't bother me that RC doesn't apply, but if it's supposed to, then with official word I will shift to the other ruling--being rather conservative on this one.
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According to the basic physics of firearms, without a complete redesign of the barrel, chamber and firing mechanism, increasing the powder charge will make the bullet go faster, but will make it less accurate. It isn't exactly "recoil" in the same sense as the recoil that throws off subsequent shots, but it is a form of recoil that causes the bullet to wobble in flight and not spin properly. Because it is caused by the barrel vibrating and the rate of spin being too low, standard forms of recoil compensation designed to correct for barrel rise between shots would have no effect on this.
To keep the same accuracy, the barrel needs to be lengthened and thickened and the rifling needs to be tighter, and the chamber and frame need to be reinforced. At that point, you may as well just buy a more powerful gun.
What this says to me is that the -2 should be on every shot including the first, and should not be able to be compensated with RC modifications.
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Ok, now THAT is a well reasoned and articulate explanation for the penalty as written. (Not that I won't accept 'unless told otherwise, we play as written'.)
I would then ask, is that not the purpose of the Re-chambering Mod as found in WAR? I forget what the Threshold is, but I remember the cost is listed as 'Weapon Cost'. So, yeah, you are basically paying double the weapons cost to shoot these Troll-Fragging rounds.
With EX or Flechette rounds you have an increase in DV, with a corresponding penalty. But those are buy and load rounds. If you have to completely rebuild the weapon, should you not have an increase in DV or AP without a corresponding penalty? I think that is why I like the idea of re-chambering for higher caliber rounds; +1 DV with reduced ammo capacity and cost, and double uncompensated recoil.
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Thank you.
On the flip side, it is also a question of game balance. There has to be a significant trade-off for the increased power, and decreasing accuracy to balance it is an RPG staple.
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I always thought the trade off on this mod was losing the ability to use any other type of ammo as well as loading the second most difficult to acquire ammo. They aren't exactly cheap either. But I'll second MadBear, good explanation.
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Not being able to use other ammo actually irritates me. I think that cylinder weapons should still be able to use both. It's classic and realistic (.357 Mag. and .38 or .44 Mag and .44 for example). That said, I don't really by the -2 penalty due to recoil. If you've done the high power chambering mod, the weapon is designed to take the increased pressure. My .357 is more accurate than my .38 has ever hoped to be.
It is quite simply just a balance issue. There is no realistic reasoning for it.
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The firearms rules are intentionally abstract, and eschew the use of specific calibers...
...so the whole HP round thing kinda bugs me.
Ambiguous +P rounds.
*sigh*
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Still not as irritating as F rated hollow points, to me anyway, it just comes up more. But that was some damn good reasoning Anarkitty.
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Still not as irritating as F rated hollow points, to me anyway, it just comes up more. But that was some damn good reasoning Anarkitty.
Eh, probably the only hollow points they've heard of were Black Talons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Because doctors dig around with their bare fingers to get the bullet...
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Because doctors dig around with their bare fingers to get the bullet...
Depends on the doctor you're able to get to.
"Now lie down on that pool table while I have a few shots of Jack to steady my nerves."
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Guess so, but the complaints were from uninformed people who were worried about doctors getting diseases by being cut by the projectile, I don't think anyone will notice if Johnny the Bar Surgeon commits surgerytm and gets another disease.
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Guess so, but the complaints were from uninformed people who were worried about doctors getting diseases by being cut by the projectile, I don't think anyone will notice if Johnny the Bar Surgeon commits surgerytm and gets another disease.
I have no idea if my surgeon was using his hands on my bone or not. I think my Mother poked at the bit that was outside of my skin while I was still fighting off shock.
Johnny the Bar Surgeon, another contact for my group! ;D
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Don't forget the line Commit SurgeryTM, though that can only rightly be done with a M500.