[Mirikon]

All things considered, since it seems that extra IPs is the bulk of your problems, perhaps you'd be happier, and better off, translating the Shadowrun setting into another ruleset, like d20 Modern or Mutants and Masterminds, that doesn't use extra initiative passes. That would save the trouble of making houserules of exponential complexity until you get what you want.

[Reaver]

Or, translate the setting into Nwod, a game system you seem to be very familiar with. When you have to start changing core concepts and established setting rules/procedures/lore, it's a good sign that the mechanics don't work with 'your' perceptions/expectations.

[Shamie]

Walking around naked (no armor) gets you killed fast; walking around in the heaviest 'normal looking armor' (Armor Jacket), still gets you killed fast as I'd say at least half the incoming damage will be higher than 8, and wearing as much armor as you can cram on just makes you go KO instead.

well that is indeed weird, i think only three times that happen and it was with high caliber weapons. Remember that they have to surpass the defender roll + all their modifiers like cover, vision, cover fire etc etc and even then an assault rifle hit 6 by itself so 8 would mean 2 net hits on a roll.

Smart players will get their IPs elsewhere, like I mentioned earlier.

im curious about the how? We remove the extra IP spell so that only leave drugs and a junkie character could be interesting.

Have you talked to your players yet about your house rules?
Have they read the rules themselves so they know the difference between what you are proposing and the core?
What types of characters are they playing or will be playing?

actually yeah those are their complains. The technomancer complain that if he wanted to hack in AR (so he dont have to go another plane of existance just to hack pistols) he only had one pass so by the time he manage to do something the combat already finished. Thats why we came out with the second houserule so he has the same pass than the rest of the spastics.
The soaking removal as i said was an accident and we found out after by playing by the rules that the soaking made the combat ecxesively long, tedious (as for every attack was checking both atts, both skills both modifiers, rolling and then again to check weapons damage and the check body, the armor value and roll again and finally someone got hit a little) and not very menacing with the weapons they had (pistols, assault rifles and a shotgun).
And the third came not from the mechanical side per say more that they feel they cant take SR seriously something because everyone moves like spats. All the party is a bunch of spastics. One of the players wanted to make a heavy hitter troll and he told me that he didnt want to have reflexes but he had to add it because otherwise even the face would steal the combat position.

[RHat]

Yes, people who specialize in combat in Shadowrun are wired.  That's how it's supposed to be.  Adepts use the Improved Reflexes power.

Technomancers have options for extra passes - they can take cover and shift into VR or use combat drugs, and once they've got some Karma there are echoes that provide extra passes.

Wired people don't move like spastics - they are not affected by random muscle spasms, rather they are able to take specific and directed action at a much higher pace.  They move far faster.

If you want to speed things up, the "eyeballing modifiers" optional rule might offer more of what you're looking for without making such sweeping changes to the system - the basic problem here is that you're making these houserules without taking the time to understand how they'll impact that game overall.  Everything is connected, so these changes would have consequences far, far, far beyond what you intend.

[Shamie]

Yes, people who specialize in combat in Shadowrun are wired.  That's how it's supposed to be.  Adepts use the Improved Reflexes power.

Technomancers have options for extra passes - they can take cover and shift into VR or use combat drugs, and once they've got some Karma there are echoes that provide extra passes.

Wired people don't move like spastics - they are not affected by random muscle spasms, rather they are able to take specific and directed action at a much higher pace.  They move far faster.

If you want to speed things up, the "eyeballing modifiers" optional rule might offer more of what you're looking for without making such sweeping changes to the system - the basic problem here is that you're making these houserules without taking the time to understand how they'll impact that game overall.  Everything is connected, so these changes would have consequences far, far, far beyond what you intend.

well thats why i made this post so far house rule 1 and 2 (technomancers ips and soakingless) are doing fine for now but i post this just to see if there is factor im not seeing aside from the suppouse ultra-lethal thing that we dont experience.

There is something aside from that im not seeing? some angle im missing?

[Carz]

well that is indeed weird, i think only three times that happen and it was with high caliber weapons. Remember that they have to surpass the defender roll + all their modifiers like cover, vision, cover fire etc etc and even then an assault rifle hit 6 by itself so 8 would mean 2 net hits on a roll.

I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what your ruleset involves.

For example, *defenders* don't get vision modifiers that *help* get out of the way of gunfire. I don't recognize 'cover fire' as a defensive modifier either. Cover or good cover, certainly.

So the attacker rolls Agility+Automatics+2 for smartlink - vision and range modifiers.
Defender gets Reaction + cover mods (2 or maybe 4 points)

Your house rules say no armor and no soak, so whatever occurs from the above is the damage outcome.

Given that setup IO think that yes, its very easy to get 2+ successes to hit your target, getting at over an 8 armor (Assault Rifle -1 AP makes 2 successes enough to cause lethal in this scenario).


Am I missing some other house rule or modifier you commonly use in the above scenario?

im curious about the how? We remove the extra IP spell so that only leave drugs and a junkie character could be interesting.

Ok, well if you expressly remove other method of getting IPs then sure, but what I was replying to was your ONLY increasing the cost of Wired Reflexes without you mentioning doing anything to any other form of extra IP.

Since you indicate that you HAVE a TM in your game, then that player directly has access to Echos that can give extra IPs in the flesh.

You have not mentioned Adepts, so Adepts can still get extra IPs.

You have not mentioned Free Spirits, and Free Spirit PCs come with extra IPs. Same with AI's.


So like I said, if you don't want extra IPs just ban them outright instead of 'adjusting' one more more types. The types you fail to adjust will be the method chosen to get extra IPs. Its fairest overall if you just get rid of them rather than try to spot-fix each type as you notice them.

actually yeah those are their complains. The technomancer complain that if he wanted to hack in AR (so he dont have to go another plane of existance just to hack pistols) he only had one pass so by the time he manage to do something the combat already finished. Thats why we came out with the second houserule so he has the same pass than the rest of the spastics.

Since your calling your own players spastics (as an insult? or am I not understanding?), I'm going to make the assumption that they are new to SR, and have not availed themselves of all the wondrous advice on this board.

I don't blame them for being overwhelmed to begin with, SR is a big complex game, and frankly (using my own, ongoing SR game experience) it takes everyone at the table knowing at least 'their part' to have a good and swiftly resolved combat.

The soaking removal as i said was an accident and we found out after by playing by the rules that the soaking made the combat ecxesively long, tedious (as for every attack was checking both atts, both skills both modifiers, rolling and then again to check weapons damage and the check body, the armor value and roll again and finally someone got hit a little) and not very menacing with the weapons they had (pistols, assault rifles and a shotgun).

From the above, it sounds like when you tried to do combat 'the right way' that you *may* have made some mistakes. For example, what skill do you think applies to the defender? Dodge? It could, but only if that PC then forfeits their next action: Dodge isn't free.

You can generalize firearm combat to the attacker getting about twice the die pool size as the defender (Agi+Gun vs Reaction), indicating that the attacker nearly always wins and hits the target (YMMV depending on specific character builds - this is a *broad* generalization). And when they hit they get the amount they hit by, plus the weapon damage to go up against the target's armor.

That 'good' armor Jacket with 8 dice, plus their body score on average is maybe going to be around 12 dice - enough to counter, on average, a light pistol's base 4 points of damage, so whatever the person made in initial successes to hit gets thru and does damage.

Maybe figure 2 to 4 damage per time you are shot, assuming the above averages. And you can be shot twice in a single action. That's with a Light Pistol; you had assault rifles and Shotguns too which do more damage.


As others have said, combat should not take that long. I recognize it will take longer with new players, but it seems more like there may be a misunderstanding of the core rules that may be stretching things out farther than they really should be.

And the third came not from the mechanical side per say more that they feel they cant take SR seriously something because everyone moves like spats. All the party is a bunch of spastics.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean by spastic.
Is that just short hand for moving fast due to extra IPs?
If so, others have already addresses this; PCs move quickly and smoothly when using extra IPs.

[RHat]

Yes, people who specialize in combat in Shadowrun are wired.  That's how it's supposed to be.  Adepts use the Improved Reflexes power.

Technomancers have options for extra passes - they can take cover and shift into VR or use combat drugs, and once they've got some Karma there are echoes that provide extra passes.

Wired people don't move like spastics - they are not affected by random muscle spasms, rather they are able to take specific and directed action at a much higher pace.  They move far faster.

If you want to speed things up, the "eyeballing modifiers" optional rule might offer more of what you're looking for without making such sweeping changes to the system - the basic problem here is that you're making these houserules without taking the time to understand how they'll impact that game overall.  Everything is connected, so these changes would have consequences far, far, far beyond what you intend.

well thats why i made this post so far house rule 1 and 2 (technomancers ips and soakingless) are doing fine for now but i post this just to see if there is factor im not seeing aside from the suppouse ultra-lethal thing that we dont experience.

There is something aside from that im not seeing? some angle im missing?

In a word, yes.  But to keep it to the relevant information, might I ask what sort of characters you have?