[Bulshock]

Yes, but that is GOD and demi-GOD's.  How would anyone else do that?  Because I can tell you that if you use that reasoning a PC will want to know how they can do that too.

[Xenon]

This is going off topic.........


It is not clear what you can ask for and what you cannot ask for. The book basically only say that the matrix is very good in finding things for you.

I mostly use the matrix perception list as a reference on examples of matrix properties that you can set your filter on (so at our table type of device or model of the device etc would be valid). I also reason that you can use the negative value as well (all that does not match type of device or model etc). DT also mentions playing "20 questions" to narrow down your search results.

This might or might not be the right way of doing it. The book is very vague. All it really say is that if you know what device you are looking for ("his cybereyes" or whatever) then you resolve it with an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] Logic + Sleaze Test.

....And that if you don't even have an idea that there might be a silent running icon out there you can for example still start looking for random silent running icons in the vicinity.

Now, icons in the matrix are very obvious. If the signal is strong (the physical device is within 100 meters or you) then you don't even need to take a test. Icons out on the grid that belong to a device that is physically more than 100 metres away just require one single hit on a matrix perception test (which according to the normal perception threshold table is as obvious as a neon sign, running crowd, yelling or gun fire) - no matter of the device is physically on the other side of the world and the icon is running on another grid (!)

And no matter where in the world a physical device is you still only need a single net hit on an opposed Matrix Perception test to spot the icon of a silent running device (most icons don't even have a sleaze attribute).

[Kincaid]

I get this question a lot (one might say frequently).  How I run it: Matrix Perception basically becomes a game of 20 Questions.  "Are there silently running icons in my vicinity?" is often question one.  You can then ask follow up questions based on the answer.  These questions can confirm the presence of a certain type of icon (are any of them weapons?) as well as absence (are any of them not stealth tags?).  When you get around to picking a specific silently-running icon for the Opposed Test, you can narrow it down somewhat.

[Whiskeyjack]

Ah, I see. So its pretty much a must have Item, if you can fit its massive essence cost.

Eh. Your decker should be earning his keep in protecting you as well. 

It's nice. But must have? Nah. Maybe if it was cheaper in Essence. Which is a great balance point actually - helps prevent One True Builds.

I see it as more useful on NPCs.

[Xenon]

All wireless devices have a device icon. You can reduce the traffic between the matrix and the device, but you cannot stop it entirely. The wireless device still have a device icon. It just no longer shine so bright that it is obvious to spot. To Spot the icon of a device that run silent is resolved by an Opposed Matrix Perception Test.

The whole "looking for all silent running icons in the vicinity" is just to get an idea that there is a device out there you previous didn't know about. There is no need for this step if you already know what you are looking for.

[Whiskeyjack]

The question there is then how you know what you're seeing. I doubt a smartgun is going to be totally obvious as such at a glance in a crowd (less of an issue if your team and your enemies are the only icons within 6 blocks in the barrens).

Also situations like...if you're in a mall and don't have the commcode of your mark you're going to need to look around til something is recognizable and you know you're looking at the right device. That kind of thing shouldn't be instant.

It's really infuriating when this part of the rules is so vague but other parts are needlessly/valuelessly granular

[Kincaid]

If you're in a mall and you're looking for, "a persona" then you're going to be there for a long long time before you find the right one.

[Xenon]

The question there is then how you know what you're seeing. I doubt a smartgun is going to be totally obvious as such at a glance in a crowd (less of an issue if your team and your enemies are the only icons within 6 blocks in the barrens).

I like to think of it from the other way....

If you see someone wielding a smartgun then you automatically also see its device icon.

Unless if he is wielding a smartgun over 100 meters away... in that case the device icon is as obvious to spot as a neon sign but you still need to concentrate for a second or so to spot it in the sea of all other devices.

If his smartgun is running silent then you still need to concentrate to spot it in the sea of all other devices, how obvious it is to spot depend on how good the owner roll in the opposing test, but on average you need about two hits (one net hit) on your opposed test to spot it (so it would be as obvious as a street sign, pedestrian, conversation or silenced gunfire).

Also situations like...if you're in a mall and don't have the commcode of your mark you're going to need to look around til something is recognizable and you know you're looking at the right device. That kind of thing shouldn't be instant.

It's really infuriating when this part of the rules is so vague but other parts are needlessly/valuelessly granular

Well - What do you know about your mark?

You have to know something or else you will never know that you got the right persona.....(!)

If you know how he physically look then you can take a Normal Perception + Intuition test with a positive dice pool modifier of 3 dice because you are specifically looking for your mark that you know what he looks like but you also probably get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice because there are so much people (you can also substitute your Perception for Sneaking).

If you successfully spot your target then you automatically also spot his persona.

Unless you spot your mark over 100 meters away... in that case the persona icon is as obvious to spot as a neon sign but you still need to concentrate for a second or so to spot it in the sea of all other persona icons.

If his commlink that he based his persona on is running silent then you still need to concentrate to spot it in the sea of all other persona icons, how obvious it is to spot depend on how good the owner roll in the opposing test, but on average you need about two hits (one net hit) on your opposed test to spot it (so it would be as obvious as a street sign, pedestrian, conversation or silenced gunfire).

[Bulshock]

Kincaid, main thing I'm asking about is this line 'Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test. ' from the core book.  What has been said with regards to silent running icons seems to say that you can narrow that down from 'All the silent icons in a given area' i.e. on a person, to 'all the silent running icons that are eyes' without doing that Opposed Test to find them.  Which seems to negate almost all reason to run silent if you aren't actively a Hacker's Persona, Sprite, or similar thing.

[Kincaid]

Kincaid, main thing I'm asking about is this line 'Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test. ' from the core book.  What has been said with regards to silent running icons seems to say that you can narrow that down from 'All the silent icons in a given area' i.e. on a person, to 'all the silent running icons that are eyes' without doing that Opposed Test to find them.  Which seems to negate almost all reason to run silent if you aren't actively a Hacker's Persona, Sprite, or similar thing.

I can't speak to how things were when the core book was published, but I imagine the "pocketful of stealth tags" thing was unintended.  Picking amongst 3 or 4 silent icons sounds like it would be exciting and thrilling (in practice it's probably slightly less so because of the action economy issues that deckers have).  Picking randomly from 500 icons essentially means that your silently-running icons are never at risk, which goes against the entire design carrot/stick design philosophy of the wireless Matrix in 5e.  You end up with a gamist loophole in the rules.  That's not the characters coming up with a cool idea or the decker doing tricky decker stuff, that's a player recognizing a gap in how separate rules interact with one another.  There's no reason for sec guards not to do that same thing, making the team's decker essentially useless.  It's just generally unfun all around.

Now, if the people are your table are reasonable and don't stuff their pockets with stealth tags and the guessing game works to increase tension at your table, that's great.  Go with it.  I'm simply explaining how I circumvented it at my table, so it's very much in the realm of house rules.  I wouldn't allow for something as granular as "cybereyes."  Generally, I try to stick to inversions of the qualities listed on the sidebar on page 235 with a few things tacked on.  Weapon icons are discussed as behaving differently (when used legally), so "weapons" as a broad category works, but you couldn't differentiate between pistols and assault rifles.

[Bulshock]

The problem with ruling that way then limits the use of Wrapper.  Why couldn't you, instead of using Stealth tags, use handheld sensor housings with a single sensor in them?  200 nuyen a pop, and sensors are useful so you can't discard it as a 'but that's all it's used for' being the situation.  Then toss in Wrapper with a cheap deck (cheapest Deck I know of is in Data Trails at 21k) as Wrapper doesn't require the icons to be slaved to the Deck (otherwise it wouldn't work for Technomancers that take it as an Echo because they can slave nothing).  The problem comes with the lack of a rule on how you differentiate between things, because unless you make an action or hard rule for how you do that there will always be a way to do it.

Edit: Actually if you know they won't go after your RFID tags you could use your real sensors as Sensor Tags as those are RFID.

[jim1701]

This really is not the place for a discussion how matrix perception works.  Just sayin'

[Kincaid]

Wrapper actually gets a lot of use in my game.  If someone wants to invest 5 figures in making his gear harder (but not impossible) to spot in the Matrix, then I'm all for it.  Wrapper can be overcome through MP, so it encourages the players to do some legwork to pick the best iconography possible for wherever it is they're headed.  It's a much more interactive (from a rules and setting point of view) approach.  There's a world of difference between that and spending 500 nuyen to be immune to spiders.  I want players to creatively problem solve things that come up during a run as well as things that are just inherent to the setting; that's one of the strongest draws Shadowrun has for me.  If the game was reduced to endless take aim/six-round bursts of APDS Action Phases, I'd get bored pretty quick.

I spend a lot (A LOT A LOT) of time coming up with security SOPs for my characters.  That's the kind of stuff I want to encourage.

[and jim1701 is correct, let's get back to our regularly scheduled program]

[jim1701]

Created a thread for matrix perception discussion here.