[Krindi]

So can a Decker slave his cyberdeck to his commlink and just use the link for his firewall start? In chargen you can buy a dr6 link and then do the hardware customization from data trails shortly thereafter and you'll have a 7 firewall score.  I must be missing something, what's the down side here?

[firebug]

Warning:  The only RAW way that this doesn't work is kind of a pain.

You can't use the cyberdeck to form a persona while it's part of a PAN.  It states in the book that when a device is a persona, it's no longer a device in the matrix (SR5 page 234, "Devices and Persona).  It also states that if you're not a device, you can't be part of a PAN (SR5 page 250-251, "Living Persona").  So once the decker starts taking matrix actions, he's no longer in the PAN or slaved to the commlink.  I'm pretty sure this is the most "official" response that's been given as well, though it's only be done unofficially in the FAQ thread if I recall.

The good news of this, though?  It means people can't use Format Device on your cyberdeck, since it's not a device when in use.

This is all kind of wonky and maybe it feels like a stretch--  But clearly there should be a reason why what you suggested isn't possible, because it's dumb and cheesy.

[Novocrane]

You can't use the cyberdeck to form a persona while it's part of a PAN.

You have to question that one a bit, as that interpretation relegates PANs to something you do with a spare device.

Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN.

[Darzil]

I've seen two reasonable approaches, as the "not part of a PAN when a Persona" stuff isn't wonderfully clear.

1. You can set up a PAN with a Deck slaved to a Commlink. You can use the Firewall stat of the commlink when defending against matrix attack, but not when soaking damage, jacking out, or disarming databombs, as these actions are not covered by the PAN rules as they only cover defense tests. When you run the numbers, using a low firewall on the deck no longer looks that advantageous.

2. You can set up a PAN with a Deck slaved to a Commlink. This works, but when you base your Persona on the deck it is no longer considered part of the PAN, so you use the deck's firewall.

I don't like the "base a persona on the device, suddenly the PAN is broken" hard interpretation, personally.

[Rooks]

But isnt the whole point of deckers is that you slave your teams devices to the cyber deck for protection from other deckers? and if the decker is using his deck then it becomes apart of his persona in the matrix there by breaking the PAN of all devices slaved to the deck for protection making the whole point of this SR5 devices wireless bonuses that can be hacked POINTLESS since you can use wireless bonuses but cannot slave the devices to said cyberdeck for protection because then when the hacker uses the cyberdeck it becomes apart of his persona in the matrix.... ya this was well thought out

[firebug]

Slaving your team's gear to the decker's deck isn't worthwhile.  For one, it can only slave so many things.  A commlink will be better for that (hence the point of this thread, too!).

A decker doesn't just passively boost everyone's matrix defense.  He's the matrix equivalent of the street samurai.  Stay alert for threats, neutralize them in your field of expertise before they can affect your other team members.

Everyone should have their own commlink at a decent rating for protection--  You don't go into a run without armor just because you have a street samurai to protect you, nor should you go into a run with paper-thin matrix defenses just because you have a decker on your side.

[Darzil]

I believe you can now only slave your own devices. Now you could give your Decker ownership of your Cyberware, but you may not want to.

Even considering that, it mainly matters when running silent, as commlink firewalls will often be better.

If you did allow other people to slave to the deck, consider also that it means if someone uses a direct link to any of that slaved cyberware they get a quick and easy mark on the decker's deck.

That is potentially quite a risky situation.

[Krindi]

I've seen two reasonable approaches, as the "not part of a PAN when a Persona" stuff isn't wonderfully clear.

1. You can set up a PAN with a Deck slaved to a Commlink. You can use the Firewall stat of the commlink when defending against matrix attack, but not when soaking damage, jacking out, or disarming databombs, as these actions are not covered by the PAN rules as they only cover defense tests. When you run the numbers, using a low firewall on the deck no longer looks that advantageous.

2. You can set up a PAN with a Deck slaved to a Commlink. This works, but when you base your Persona on the deck it is no longer considered part of the PAN, so you use the deck's firewall.

I don't like the "base a persona on the device, suddenly the PAN is broken" hard interpretation, personally.

Thank you for #1 there, I agree that makes the most sense and solves the cheese problem.   

But isnt the whole point of deckers is that you slave your teams devices to the cyber deck for protection from other deckers? [snip]

Slaving your team's gear to the decker's deck isn't worthwhile.  For one, it can only slave so many things.  A commlink will be better for that (hence the point of this thread, too!).

A decker doesn't just passively boost everyone's matrix defense.  He's the matrix equivalent of the street samurai.  Stay alert for threats, neutralize them in your field of expertise before they can affect your other team members.

Everyone should have their own commlink at a decent rating for protection--  You don't go into a run without armor just because you have a street samurai to protect you, nor should you go into a run with paper-thin matrix defenses just because you have a decker on your side.

Yeah, the limit of slaved devices is device rating x 3.  So a ¥200k cyberdeck can slave 9 devices, but a ¥6k commlink can slave 18.

One advantage of slaving to the Decker's commlink is that his Willpower and Intuition are likely both high, whereas other team members may only have 1 of them high (or none). If s/he handles all the incoming attacks then a single Full Matrix Defense action will add Willpower to all of the defenses, rather than different team mates having to sacrifice initiative to defend against the attack less well.

I believe you can now only slave your own devices. Now you could give your Decker ownership of your Cyberware, but you may not want to.

Even considering that, it mainly matters when running silent, as commlink firewalls will often be better.

If you did allow other people to slave to the deck, consider also that it means if someone uses a direct link to any of that slaved cyberware they get a quick and easy mark on the decker's deck.

That is potentially quite a risky situation.

Yeah it's risky, especially if a team member gets separated.  You'd probably want to drop devices from the PAN when you're not certain of their status in order to prevent the direct connection issue.

Regarding slaving only your own devices, that's an interesting take.  P233 does say "if you want extra protection for some of your devices", but the reading of "your" there is potentially vague.  It doesn't call out anywhere that you can only add owned devices to the PAN, which would add more clarity to the matter.  It would make the most sense to me if it required 3 marks or owned status to add a device to the PAN.  Team member can use the Invite Mark action to give you the 3 marks and you can add to the PAN.  That also would allow a snooping Matrix warrior to inspect the devices they were planning on attacking through matrix perception and make a good guess as to who's defending the devices.

[Darzil]

One advantage of slaving to the Decker's commlink is that his Willpower and Intuition are likely both high, whereas other team members may only have 1 of them high (or none). If s/he handles all the incoming attacks then a single Full Matrix Defense action will add Willpower to all of the defenses, rather than different team mates having to sacrifice initiative to defend against the attack less well.

It actually talks about being able to use the master's rating instead of your willpower, rather than the master's owner's willpower in place of your own.

Another plus for commlinks for defending your cyber, they usually have higher device ratings.

[Krindi]

One advantage of slaving to the Decker's commlink is that his Willpower and Intuition are likely both high, whereas other team members may only have 1 of them high (or none). If s/he handles all the incoming attacks then a single Full Matrix Defense action will add Willpower to all of the defenses, rather than different team mates having to sacrifice initiative to defend against the attack less well.

It actually talks about being able to use the master's rating instead of your willpower, rather than the master's owner's willpower in place of your own.

Another plus for commlinks for defending your cyber, they usually have higher device ratings.

Oh good point.  So the second part still applies, but yeah, another point in favor of the commlink.  Wonder if you're better off just adding 1 to the firewall of the commlink, or attaching something like a biofeedback program instead.

[Hobbes]

Deckers will typically have a much higher Sleaze than your Commlink so if you're running silent (and why wouldn't you) being slaved to a Cyberdeck makes your Icons much more difficult to spot.

MATRIX PERCEPTION
(COMPLEX ACTION)
Marks Required: none
Test: Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] (v. Logic+ Sleaze)

I'm hoping your Decker's Logic+Sleaze is better than, well, anyone else in the group. 

And FYI, a Decker should have a Firewall stat of 8 or so by the time its all said and done.  Overclocker PQ, the Encryption Program, and Cyberdeck modifications should get you there.  See also Perfect Timing to keep your highest stat in Firewall.

The main issue is that your Cyberdeck is fairly limited in how many devices you can stuff into your PAN.

[Darzil]

I'm hoping your Decker's Logic+Sleaze is better than, well, anyone else in the group. 

From the PAN rules though it is (oddly), the better of your Logic and the PAN Master's device rating and the better of your device's Sleaze and the PAN Master's sleaze. The decker's logic doesn't seem to come into it. Hiding when running silent is definitely the test that you are better off slaved to a deck than a commlink, though.

[Jack_Spade]

Unless of course the commlink has a sleaze dongle and a modded program module with smoke and mirrors running. Have a high rated jammer running wireless and you are pretty well protected from faraway traces

[antaskidayo]

It also states that if you're not a device, you can't be part of a PAN (SR5 page 250-251, "Living Persona").

Really? I thought this part is only limited to Technomancers because they have resonance, and that is why that rule is on the technomancer section. Awww poor cyberdeck =/

[wmkertz]

I've seen this question asked a lot and the conversation seems to go the same way every time.  There's conflicting information in game crunch, with a bunch of weird implications, and no official ruling on the correct interpretation.

As a GM this is how I interpret the intent, not the wording, of the rules.
1)  Persona as Icons, when jacking into a device, merge with the device's Icon but don't replace them.  So if a device is part of a PAN and a persona jumps into it, the device is still part of the PAN.  A Living Persona cannot be part of a PAN on it's own because it isn't being generated by a device, but if that Persona jumps into a device that is part of a PAN, now that Persona is as well.  Similarly if a rigger jumps into a drone slaved to his RCC, that drone is still slaved to the RCC.
2)  The importance of merging the Persona's Icon and the device's Icon is that some Matrix actions don't work against Persona specifically.
3)  It wasn't intended for players to be able to arrange their ASDF array to favor attack, sleaze and data processing, then hide behind the superior firewall of a cheap commlink.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the confusing language about Persona's and their place in a PAN was meant to close the door on this idea.  You know, that whole "can't have your cake and eat it too" schtick.
4)  That said, let players slave their decks to comms if they want, just don't let them use their attack or sleaze while the deck is slaved.

As a player I wouldn't try it, Matrix rules can get convoluted if your try to enforce or abuse their exact descriptions.  And they will.  And suddenly playing a hacker will be much more of a headache for everybody.