[Halinn]

Logic is two only from spending ten karma.  Clearly a bad investment, but barring odd character concepts I'm just not comfortable with stats of 1 on my characters.  The idea that your default on any logic skill is 0 is just more than I'm willing to handle, role-playing wise.  Not being too good at thinking things through is one thing, being essentially incapable of it is another.  Nothing against people who are happy with '1', but I'll accept the power hit.

An argument for consideration: rolling 1 die means that 1/6th of the time, you're getting a critical glitch. 0 dice just means you fail, 1 die introduces the chance of failing horribly.

[FST_Gemstar]

Fair enough not wanting stats at 1, though now that you say that, you also don't need strength for much either, so you can drop strength to 2, move an attribute point to logic for 2, and spend that 10 karma on boosting Edge to 2. That may keep the character living longer from some bad dice rolls than auto-failing or critical glitching logic skill tests. Or, to optimize: Strength: 2, Logic: 1, Willpower: 5, Edge: 2 (w/10 karma).

[Hobbes]

Yeah, mechanically there isn't much difference between defaulting from a stat of 1 or a stat of 2.  If you're not spending edge you're either going to fail, or fail so badly you need to spend edge. 

Perfectly fine to not want a stat of 1, but defaulting from a stat of 2 is going to end badly. 

[Facemage]

I think that defaulting with attribute 3 or 4 is also almost useless and often dangerous. So, you should never do it. And because this is a team game, you should have no need to do it.

I often see here comments that the str 1 will kill you because you cannot e.g. climb safely (without skill neither). So, you have to had 2-3 in your str. I think that it is still very dangerous to climb and using only 2 dices. And if you are a mage you can use levitate (the build in this thread cannot but I'm speaking in general level)?

That's why I think that 1 in str and log are doable, if you want to get more points to e.g. willpower, int or rea. The difference between str 1 and 2 is almost nothing, both are really bad values in general.

What are those logic skills that you have to throw often? Even with low attributes? Chemistry (Decker or hermetic mages are better to do it), first aid (use medkit), medicine (if you have 3 in body and quick healer, you don't need medicine), computer (decker can throw it), demolitions (Decker and hermetic mages...)

[Beta]

Sorry I didn't put it clearly enough earlier -- the stat of one thing is a personal role playing thing, not a practical thing.  No I never want to default off a low stat, but unless it is part of the character concept in my head, I'm not interested in role playing a character so feeble that they are incapable of even trying to sprint, so logically impaired that presented with a flat tire, a spare, and tools would never manage to replace it, etc.

I'm not arguing the math-- it is personal play style thing.  So:
- to anyone looking at the discussion for guides on how to make a similar character:  str and logic both 1, will at 5, body at four, use karma to take edge to 2. 
- For my character I'm good with the stats as listed previously.

I tried monkeying with skills and PP last night, but was way too tired to do anything coherent.  Definitely thinking that alchemy could get useful at a lower skill level than ritual .... Barring having someone to work with in rituals, which changes things.  (Still not going to take spellcasting, and only have at most a few skill points for this, so thinking it makes sense to focus, although one in each would not be impossible, and could justify spreading the five spells usefully)

[falar]

If you're going to take Alchemy, I recommend you take some of the unresisted defensive spells for it. Combat Sense, Increase Reflexes, Increase Strength are all solid options. Prepare them at something like Force 4 and you'd get 7 dice versus 4 dice. You'd usually end up with something with potency 1 or 2, so it would last an hour or two. At such a low level, Combat Sense and Increase Strength are probably your better bet, but you'll still end up whiffing a good portion of the time.

[Hobbes]

Deflection, Combat Sense, Increase Willpower (for this character to resist summoning drain), Increase Intuition (at force 5 to hand out to the team), Analyze Device possibly.  Plenty of options for adding one or two dice here or there, but no Astral Perception for clean up so you'll want to be careful with where you use Preparations. 

[Beta]

To wrap up this thread, and hopefully never have to seen the totally screwed up thread title again, here is the build I went with in the end. 
- Deliberately not optimized in some areas.
- Meant to be able to team-work some social tests,
- have enough stealth to hopefully get by with spirit help,
- enough alchemy to buy a hit on a force 4 preparation,
- enough speed to be able to wrangle spirits, keep up good defenses, and occasionally take a shot. 
- Unarmed should be enough to land touch attacks on goons most of the time, but she surely doesn't want to go toe-to-toe with a real brawler.
- Absolutely needs a bucket of karma thrown into skills physical skills to make the jumping/climbing more useful and reliable, but need to invest in PP at creation--that theme is to be fleshed out as karma comes in (granted also need karma for edge, and social skills, and increasing alchemy, and ..... )



== Priorities ==
Metatype: C(2) -  Elf
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: C(2) - MysAd
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E(0) - 6,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 3
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 4
EDG: 1
MAG: 6

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                10 (12) + 3d6


== Limits ==
Physical:                  6
Mental:                    5
Social:                    9
Astral:                    9

== Active Skills ==
Alchemy                    : 2                      Pool: 8
Automatics                 : 6                      Pool: 12
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 9
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 7
Intimidation               : 6                      Pool: 16
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 9
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 9
Palming                    : 1                      Pool: 8
Perception                 : 3                      Pool: 8
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 4
Sneaking                   : 1                      Pool: 7
Summoning                  : 6 [Spirits of Air]     Pool: 12 (14)
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 5
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat             : 4                      Pool: 10

== Knowledge Skills ==
Birds of the Pacific North-West : 3                      Pool: 5
Japanese                   : 3                      Pool: 8
Seattle criminal underworld : 5                      Pool: 10
Shinto Ritual              : 3                      Pool: 5

== Contacts ==
Fiona Craig; Seattle; Archeologist (2, 1)
Heather; Pullayup; Gang Leader (4, 4)
June Mayfield; Tacoma; Grassroots Politician (3, 3)
Radiant Shadow; Renton; BTL&drug dealer/connaisseur (3, 4)

== Qualities ==
Dependent (Inconvenience)
Incompetent (Sorcery)
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
Mystic Adept
Prejudiced (Common, Biased) (Humans)
SINner (Criminal) (Cop killer)
Too Pretty To Hit

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (12))
Gecko Crawl (Alchemical)   DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (Alchemical) (LOG) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (Alchemical) (WIL) DV: F-3
Magic Fingers (Alchemical) DV: F-2
Mindlink (Alchemical)      DV: F-1

== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Freefall Rating: 2
Hang Time Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2
Improved Sense (Smell)
Light Body Rating: 2
Nimble Fingers

== Lifestyles ==
Craptastic apt. w/ chiphead sister  1 months

== Armor ==
Armor Vest                          9

== Weapons ==
Shock Gloves
   Pool: 10   Accuracy: 6   DV: 8S(e)   AP: -5   RC: 2
Steyr TMP
   +Laser Sight
   Pool: 12   Accuracy: 5   DV: 7P   AP: -   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 10   Accuracy: 6   DV: 3S   AP: -   RC: 2

== Commlink ==
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)

== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Machine Pistols) x30
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Machine Pistols) x30
Certified Credstick, Silver
Earbuds Rating 1
Fake SIN (Gabriela Martinez) Rating 3
Spare Clip (Steyr TMP)
Subvocal Mic
Trodes

== Description ==
Short and stocky by elven standards, hair is buzz-cut, nose has been broken a couple of times, knuckles are scarred, but she has the sort of presence that holds the eye. Usually wearing t-shirt and cargo pants, she's quick to scowl but willing to laugh.

For visual inspiration, think Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2.

== Concept ==
Summoning adept with an attitude, and enough combat abilty to get herself into trouble. If she survives maybe she'll round out her abilities and mellow her attitude. Even Thunderbird can't teach her to fly, but she jumps, perches, and falls well.

== Notes ==
Mystic adept, but incompetent in Sorcery. Very weak alchemy. Magic effects on her have an avian theme. Her charisma is more the charisma of a predator than 'sexy,' although some people may confuse the two.