[RowanTheFox]

Also a thread item is not naming, not necessarily, many items in ED require that you weave threads to them but they have no specific names necesarrily. A pattern item is closer to naming, since it has become integral to your pattern and have often acquired a name in the process, also not only items but also for example Places can acquire true patterns and you can weave threads to those as well. But for those it isn't so much a conscious effort on your behalf that leads to the creation of a pattern item but more circumstances. Alachia however can do it on purpose, at least with her spells if i remember correctly.

Pattern item, that's the term I was looking for, thank you. I stand corrected, it's a pattern item, not a thread item. The story I gave it is that it was crafted by a powerful Lightbearer, and bound to her pattern during the Fourth World. That Lightbearer was killed by a certain golden dragon who added the item to his hoard. The fact Maisie now has it and can actually use it probably has fate giggling like a little schoolgirl.

[lokii]

Not really, in the Blood Wood even before the ritual of thorns she would coerce her former lovers into committing suicide,

Hm, I don't remember that. Maybe you have quote?

her arrogance with her superiority led directly to the mess that required the thorns. She wouldn't even entertain the idea of another way of surviving even though her advisers tried telling her that a wooden kaer wouldn't work, it was the "elven" way.

I don't think Alachia's believe in the superiority of elvenkind was the point. She did not want to accept Theran rule, probably out of some combination of rivalry with the Theran immortal elves and wanting to keep her personal power. And the solution they found did work for 200 years, so I don't think its eventual failure even though suspected by some was a forgone conclusion that Alachia chose to ignore.

Anyway national socialist ideology can be hardly called innovative. A believe in the superiority of your tribe, nation or race is almost the oldest thing there is. So I don't feel the time of Alachia's rule is particularly close to it. Now some of the stuff in Worlds without End could be a different matter. See below.

The reason i went with Eva Braun is because..1) Alachia would not be happy just being the girlfriend of some mid level Nazi, she goes for the top everytime and 2) her physical description could easily fit with Eva Braun and yes she isn't named as Eva Braun, but Aina strongly implies that she is very very close to the power in Nazi germany. Anyway the various scenes are of course supposed to show that Alachia is drawn to temporal power if not addicted to it and that she has very Little in the way of a moral Compass or at least a moral Compass very unlike anything we would recognize as normal, contrasted to Aina WHO has no interest in temporal power and a very strong moral Compass.

I agree in so far, as the scene works on guilt by association. Look who she pals around with! And it's unlikely there is a mitigating factor. Caroline Spector probably didn't think to herself, this looks really bad, but what Aina doesn't know Alachia is actually an allied spy! Still we don't really know what Alachia wanted out of the Nazis. For the purpose of the book it should probably be seen in light of what she told Aina before:

We can control what happens over the next thousand years. Make the world over in our image. Think of it—the power will come back again. Not this trickle, but a deluge of energy to rip loose the moorings of the world—unless we make certain of the proper order of things. Humans are sheep. We will always rule them.
The legends and tales you strew about aren't enough. We must have more. We must control them. This is our destiny.

But what does that mean for her plans at the time? So I don't know it served her ambitions to hang out at Obersalzberg half of the time.

On the physical appearance: red hair and legendary beauty? Don't quite see the fit with Eva Braun.

And just wanted to add:

Braun would not have been publicly affectionate in this way with someone besides Hitler

Even that would have been frowned upon, as the relationship wasn't officially acknowledged. But I'm pretty sure that didn't give her leeway to pursue another public relationship on the side.

We've been able to retcon and play with a few things. but there's no way in Hell that anyone involved with Shadowrun would deny the people truly responsible for the Third Reich agency for being some of history's greatest villains. Just like whatever else happened in WWE, there's no way Alachia was actually Queen Elizabeth I.

I don't mind it in the latter case. Aina's reaction in Worlds without End implies that the move was either frowned upon or thought to be foolish. So I see it more as an exception to the rule. As for appearance in this case, I just want to point out Cate Blanchett played both Elizabeth and an elven noblewoman. Coincidence?

In general, posing as a famous person probably becomes tedious if you have to set it up again and again. It could also expose you to your rivals.

Another reason why I'm surprised no one has offed her yet. Alachia actually killed all of those advisers and banished their children from the Blood Wood. One of those children was none other than Aina, who then fell in with a Nethermancer, and then accidentally caught Yrsgrathe's eye. I think we all know what happened after that.

So, in effect, every bad thing that happened to Aina is Alachia's fault.

There are various versions of the story of how Alachia rejected the Theran offer in the Earthdawn sources. There are certainly several inconsistencies with Scars. As I said before Alachia isn't portrayed as really evil in the other sources. The Blood Wood mentions banishing of advisors but I think even the history on the "Iron Queen" Liara does not mention summary executions for disagreement. So yes, the single-minded villainy and pettiness Alachia displays in the Immortals (Aina) trilogy doesn't quite work with her successful manipulation of other people and continued good standing among the immortals which even the trilogy acknowledges in a number of instances and through the ages.

[RowanTheFox]

Not really, in the Blood Wood even before the ritual of thorns she would coerce her former lovers into committing suicide,

Hm, I don't remember that. Maybe you have quote?

her arrogance with her superiority led directly to the mess that required the thorns. She wouldn't even entertain the idea of another way of surviving even though her advisers tried telling her that a wooden kaer wouldn't work, it was the "elven" way.

I don't think Alachia's believe in the superiority of elvenkind was the point. She did not want to accept Theran rule, probably out of some combination of rivalry with the Theran immortal elves and wanting to keep her personal power. And the solution they found did work for 200 years, so I don't think its eventual failure even though suspected by some was a forgone conclusion that Alachia chose to ignore.

Anyway national socialist ideology can be hardly called innovative. A believe in the superiority of your tribe, nation or race is almost the oldest thing there is. So I don't feel the time of Alachia's rule is particularly close to it. Now some of the stuff in Worlds without End could be a different matter. See below.

The reason i went with Eva Braun is because..1) Alachia would not be happy just being the girlfriend of some mid level Nazi, she goes for the top everytime and 2) her physical description could easily fit with Eva Braun and yes she isn't named as Eva Braun, but Aina strongly implies that she is very very close to the power in Nazi germany. Anyway the various scenes are of course supposed to show that Alachia is drawn to temporal power if not addicted to it and that she has very Little in the way of a moral Compass or at least a moral Compass very unlike anything we would recognize as normal, contrasted to Aina WHO has no interest in temporal power and a very strong moral Compass.

I agree in so far, as the scene works on guilt by association. Look who she pals around with! And it's unlikely there is a mitigating factor. Caroline Spector probably didn't think to herself, this looks really bad, but what Aina doesn't know Alachia is actually an allied spy! Still we don't really know what Alachia wanted out of the Nazis. For the purpose of the book it should probably be seen in light of what she told Aina before:

We can control what happens over the next thousand years. Make the world over in our image. Think of it—the power will come back again. Not this trickle, but a deluge of energy to rip loose the moorings of the world—unless we make certain of the proper order of things. Humans are sheep. We will always rule them.
The legends and tales you strew about aren't enough. We must have more. We must control them. This is our destiny.

But what does that mean for her plans at the time? So I don't know it served her ambitions to hang out at Obersalzberg half of the time.

On the physical appearance: red hair and legendary beauty? Don't quite see the fit with Eva Braun.

And just wanted to add:

Braun would not have been publicly affectionate in this way with someone besides Hitler

Even that would have been frowned upon, as the relationship wasn't officially acknowledged. But I'm pretty sure that didn't give her leeway to pursue another public relationship on the side.

We've been able to retcon and play with a few things. but there's no way in Hell that anyone involved with Shadowrun would deny the people truly responsible for the Third Reich agency for being some of history's greatest villains. Just like whatever else happened in WWE, there's no way Alachia was actually Queen Elizabeth I.

I don't mind it in the latter case. Aina's reaction in Worlds without End implies that the move was either frowned upon or thought to be foolish. So I see it more as an exception to the rule. As for appearance in this case, I just want to point out Cate Blanchett played both Elizabeth and an elven noblewoman. Coincidence?

In general, posing as a famous person probably becomes tedious if you have to set it up again and again. It could also expose you to your rivals.

Another reason why I'm surprised no one has offed her yet. Alachia actually killed all of those advisers and banished their children from the Blood Wood. One of those children was none other than Aina, who then fell in with a Nethermancer, and then accidentally caught Yrsgrathe's eye. I think we all know what happened after that.

So, in effect, every bad thing that happened to Aina is Alachia's fault.

There are various versions of the story of how Alachia rejected the Theran offer in the Earthdawn sources. There are certainly several inconsistencies with Scars. As I said before Alachia isn't portrayed as really evil in the other sources. The Blood Wood mentions banishing of advisors but I think even the history on the "Iron Queen" Liara does not mention summary executions for disagreement. So yes, the single-minded villainy and pettiness Alachia displays in the Immortals (Aina) trilogy doesn't quite work with her successful manipulation of other people and continued good standing among the immortals which even the trilogy acknowledges in a number of instances and through the ages.

Still, someone at some point had to have tried to put a bullet in her brain pan. Pretty much anyone in Tir Tairngire who isn't an elf would have a bone to pick with her or Jenna.

[Rosa]

Still, someone at some point had to have tried to put a bullet in her brain pan. Pretty much anyone in Tir Tairngire who isn't an elf would have a bone to pick with her or Jenna.

Well if they tried, they both possess sufficient power to turn any would be assassin into a slight smear of ash on the ground.

Also Alachia was never really that known in Tir Tairngire, she is referred to as the secret member of the council of Princes under the name Sosain Nerain i think it was and it is mentioned that she only attends the meetings that are exclusive to the upper tier of the council ( i.e. the meetings which are only for the immortals ). I don't know why there are some people, that have this idea that Jenna is a dilletante. Yes in Ainas eyes Jenna is much less important than, but thats Ainas perspective, which cannot be said to be very objective. She has been alluded to also having been a queen of Bloodwood ( Jenna that is ), so clearly she is old and powerful just like the rest of them.

Also i agree with the sentiment that Alachia is not portrayed as villainous in other sources, however neither is she portrayed in a very positive light, rather for example in Bloodwood i would say that she comes off as manipulative, overly proud, petty and incapable of admitting to both herself and anyone else that she has made a mistake oh and vindictive.

[RowanTheFox]

Still, someone at some point had to have tried to put a bullet in her brain pan. Pretty much anyone in Tir Tairngire who isn't an elf would have a bone to pick with her or Jenna.

Well if they tried, they both possess sufficient power to turn any would be assassin into a slight smear of ash on the ground.

Also Alachia was never really that known in Tir Tairngire, she is referred to as the secret member of the council of Princes under the name Sosain Nerain i think it was and it is mentioned that she only attends the meetings that are exclusive to the upper tier of the council ( i.e. the meetings which are only for the immortals ). I don't know why there are some people, that have this idea that Jenna is a dilletante. Yes in Ainas eyes Jenna is much less important than, but thats Ainas perspective, which cannot be said to be very objective. She has been alluded to also having been a queen of Bloodwood ( Jenna that is ), so clearly she is old and powerful just like the rest of them.

Also i agree with the sentiment that Alachia is not portrayed as villainous in other sources, however neither is she portrayed in a very positive light, rather for example in Bloodwood i would say that she comes off as manipulative, overly proud, petty and incapable of admitting to both herself and anyone else that she has made a mistake oh and vindictive.

To be fair, villainy is subjective, and there are few places where this is more true than in the SR universe. From Aina's perspective, Alachia may have been quite villainous indeed.

[lokii]

She has been alluded to also having been a queen of Bloodwood ( Jenna that is ), so clearly she is old and powerful just like the rest of them.

That's based on a speculative reading of Tir Tairngire, so I wouldn't see it as a fact. A painting showing Jenna with thorns prompts the Laughing Man to mention the Blood Queen. But actually the person describing the painting seems doubtful, that it really is Jenna: "a woman, so similar in feature to Jenna Ni'Fairra that I initially took it as a painting of her, or a close relative".

Also i agree with the sentiment that Alachia is not portrayed as villainous in other sources, however neither is she portrayed in a very positive light, rather for example in Bloodwood i would say that she comes off as manipulative, overly proud, petty and incapable of admitting to both herself and anyone else that she has made a mistake oh and vindictive.

Largely true, though this description of Alachia's vanity from The Blood Wood is an example of how this is moderated:

Alachia is vain to a fault, but her vanity is not a weakness. [..] she never allows her vanity to overcome her common sense.

On her choices:

Though she would never admit it, Alachia sometimes secretly wishes that the elves had found a method of surviving the Scourge other than the Ritual of Thorns. [..] Most of the time, however, the queen is content with the choice she made.

Also the pain induced by the thorns has a psychological effect on the elves: a muting of affect. I wonder whether some of the qualities of Alachia have been shaped or maybe just sharpened by the thorns. Obviously this would be something that the Immortals trilogy does not take into account. So I'm inclined to adjust for some of the evil queen act from the books.

And she's not the only character that needs adjustment. I remember that in Little Treasures (which I read as Kleine Schätze) Harleqin actually acts like a court jester at one point.

[Rosa]

She has been alluded to also having been a queen of Bloodwood ( Jenna that is ), so clearly she is old and powerful just like the rest of them.

That's based on a speculative reading of Tir Tairngire, so I wouldn't see it as a fact. A painting showing Jenna with thorns prompts the Laughing Man to mention the Blood Queen. But actually the person describing the painting seems doubtful, that it really is Jenna: "a woman, so similar in feature to Jenna Ni'Fairra that I initially took it as a painting of her, or a close relative".

Yes, you gotta admit, that thats a pretty strong indication that she was indeed Queen of Bloodwood at one point in time.

The very fact that Harlequin Refers to her as such is a very strong indication i would say, he would be one of those that would know.

The person, WHO has seen the painting and WHO is doubtful that it is really Jenna is not a point against that interpretation quite the contrary. The person is not in the know about immortals and Bloodwood...etc., so of course he is doubtful, how could it possibly be Jenna Ni Fairra? But look at his initial response to seeing the painting, he is sure he is looking at a painting of her or a close relative.

[Critias]

Man, not for nothing, but "Alachia is vain to a fault, but her vanity is not a weakness," is a terrible line.  A fault is a weakness.  Like, that's what the word means.  There were way better ways to phrase it, if you want to say someone's vain but doesn't go super ninja tactical-disadvantage crazy with it.

[RowanTheFox]

Man, not for nothing, but "Alachia is vain to a fault, but her vanity is not a weakness," is a terrible line.  A fault is a weakness.  Like, that's what the word means.  There were way better ways to phrase it, if you want to say someone's vain but doesn't go super ninja tactical-disadvantage crazy with it.

Agreed, I always translated it as "Alachia is vain to a fault, but she rarely permits it to overrule her better judgement. She has plenty of other weaknesses that do that just fine."

[lokii]

That's based on a speculative reading of Tir Tairngire, so I wouldn't see it as a fact. A painting showing Jenna with thorns prompts the Laughing Man to mention the Blood Queen. But actually the person describing the painting seems doubtful, that it really is Jenna: "a woman, so similar in feature to Jenna Ni'Fairra that I initially took it as a painting of her, or a close relative".

Yes, you gotta admit, that thats a pretty strong indication that she was indeed Queen of Bloodwood at one point in time.

The very fact that Harlequin Refers to her as such is a very strong indication i would say, he would be one of those that would know.

The person, WHO has seen the painting and WHO is doubtful that it is really Jenna is not a point against that interpretation quite the contrary. The person is not in the know about immortals and Bloodwood...etc., so of course he is doubtful, how could it possibly be Jenna Ni Fairra? But look at his initial response to seeing the painting, he is sure he is looking at a painting of her or a close relative.

What I take from Harlequin's comment is that the painting likely shows the Blood Queen, because of course it could show just some blood elf woman and maybe that shouldn't be completely ruled out.

True, the anonymous observer might be doubtful because as the person says the painting "felt old". On the other hand this is all in the context of discussing these Tír leaders who have shown up from nowhere and seemed to have secretly built their country up at a time when elves were in their teens or early twenties at the most. So the person might entertain the idea that it could be her despite Jenna being outwardly too young to be in it or even had not thought about that at all in the moment and so just might have doubts about who the painting shows.

Also it's a painting. Depending on the skill of the artist being recognizable at all might already be an accomplishment. Seriously though, we know that it very well could show a close relative, as in Jenna's mother, who we know really was the Blood Queen. I think that's actually the more likely interpretation at least in hindsight.

Shadows of North America has this bit of info:

She [Sósan Naerain] does seem to have a close relationship to Ni’Fairra, as they unite forces on a regular basis, berate each other like siblings and even have similar features.

Now it's possible that it was meant differently when Tir Tairngire was written. But I feel even at that point the "close relative" could have been deliberately planted.

[Rosa]

Also it's a painting. Depending on the skill of the artist being recognizable at all might already be an accomplishment. Seriously though, we know that it very well could show a close relative, as in Jenna's mother, who we know really was the Blood Queen. I think that's actually the more likely interpretation at least in hindsight.

Shadows of North America has this bit of info:
 

She [Sósan Naerain] does seem to have a close relationship to Ni’Fairra, as they unite forces on a regular basis, berate each other like siblings and even have similar features.

Now it's possible that it was meant differently when Tir Tairngire was written. But I feel even at that point the "close relative" could have been deliberately planted.

Well Alachia has very lush red hair, Jenna is platinium blonde. The viewer does not mention anything like...."Well it sort of looks like Jenna, but she has red hair...sooo maybe a relative?" No he is initially certain, he is looking at a painting of Jenna, but then his common sense tells him that that cannot be the case because 1) Jenna does not have Thorns coming out of her body and 2 ) As you mentioned the painting clearly looks much older than any elf could possibly be in the 6th World.

Now we can of course agree to disagree, but i view this as strong anecdotal evidence that Jenna were in fact Blood queen at some point ( and btw also elf queen before bloodwood, compare Failla and Liara to Alachia and Jenna. Note that this idea is unrelated to the painting, but is based on the descriptions of the various Queens in "BloodWood" primarily. If i recall correctly there's actually also a cmment in the bloodwood book about how much these Queens look like each other physically ), taking turns with Alachia in order to keep the power in the Family so to speak.

[lokii]

Well, I'm not discounting the possibility, but I also don't find it compelling. It sounds as if the anonymous person was first drawn to the features coming to a conclusion based on that ("so similar in feature")  and then observed things that might not fit with this first impression. The "or a close relative" could be an immediate reaction to something, noticed after the features, that doesn't fit Jenna, for example a different hair colour (though the hair colour could be easily changed). It is just is not mentioned.

I think this depends a lot on whether at that point it is clear that Jenna is not Alachia. If the writers thought she was Alachia then yes there is no misdirection and the portrait shows her. But that would also mean, the scene doesn't want to convey Jenna, as Alachia's daughter, became Blood Queen.

If they thought she is Alachia's daughter, I see both options: straightforward reading and misdirection. I lean towards the latter. They came up with the Tir Tairngire stuff as Earthdawn was developed. Had they at that point for a setting they'd just started really already fixed that Alachia would eventually abdicate and her daughter follow her as Blood Queen? Also for a hint it seems just that bit too complicated, if the "Blood Queen" is not the same Queen of Blood Wood that appears in Earthdawn (don't think she is called Blood Queen in the Earthdawn corebook). Of course that also works as an argument that Jenna was considered to be Alachia at one point.

Taking one more step back, as I suggested before, if Harlequin is just reminded of the Blood Queen as the cause of the thorns, the portrait could show Jenna though not the Blood Queen. Working against this is the same notion of making the hint too complicated.

To Liara: The description fits well enough: "Tall and strongly built, with white-gold hair and cold gray eyes". But I wonder why they got the eye colour wrong. As a side note: Liara is not mentioned in the corebook, a year later only briefly in the first Denizens volume and finally four years after the corebook and Tir Tairngire gets the expanded role including the Orichalcum Wars in The Blood Wood.

[Rosa]

And thats the beauty of SR, what holds true for my game, doesn't hold true for your game. Any "evidence" that we have talked about so far is very much a matter of interpretation of scattered tidbits. In my version of the Whole interconnected ED-SR World, it is a fact ( though not known by many ) that Jenna and Alachia have taken turns being queen both before and after Bloodwood, using magic and time to "disguise" the fact that they have been the same persons. Though they have not been Queens consistently all the time, they have both had more than one run at it ( in fact in my version of the World Liara was Jenna's first try, which she bungled up pretty badly ). But as i said thats in my game, which isn't inherently better or worse than any other version, it's just the version that fits me and my players. So, Peace! And as i said let's agree to disagree 

[lokii]

I took that as a given.