[Shinobi Killfist]

So from what I understand they all now have thresholds to beat to function and net hits determine the effect. The lowest threshold is 3 but most are around 6.

What is the intent here?  Are they supposed to be removed form the players hands, to force massive edge use every time you cast a ritual though even then I’m not sure that will make this work for the players.

The dice pool last necessary to pull these off are just outside the range of players unless they literally go magic run and everyone is a mage. I get rituals should work better in groups but they used to be functional for the solo mage. We warded, created watchers, homonculus, cursed people, created super range detection spells etc. now that seems impossible.

[markelphoenix]

So from what I understand they all now have thresholds to beat to function and net hits determine the effect. The lowest threshold is 3 but most are around 6.

What is the intent here?  Are they supposed to be removed form the players hands, to force massive edge use every time you cast a ritual though even then I’m not sure that will make this work for the players.

The dice pool last necessary to pull these off are just outside the range of players unless they literally go magic run and everyone is a mage. I get rituals should work better in groups but they used to be functional for the solo mage. We warded, created watchers, homonculus, cursed people, created super range detection spells etc. now that seems impossible.

Can you explain how these thresholds are unrealistic? What would be required to say, statistically, consistently hit a threshold of 6, and what kind of benefit would a threshold 6 Ritual get you? Specificity rather than generality tends to help understanding.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So from what I understand they all now have thresholds to beat to function and net hits determine the effect. The lowest threshold is 3 but most are around 6.

What is the intent here?  Are they supposed to be removed form the players hands, to force massive edge use every time you cast a ritual though even then I’m not sure that will make this work for the players.

The dice pool last necessary to pull these off are just outside the range of players unless they literally go magic run and everyone is a mage. I get rituals should work better in groups but they used to be functional for the solo mage. We warded, created watchers, homonculus, cursed people, created super range detection spells etc. now that seems impossible.

Can you explain how these thresholds are unrealistic? What would be required to say, statistically, consistently hit a threshold of 6, and what kind of benefit would a threshold 6 Ritual get you? Specificity rather than generality tends to help understanding.

To just hit and not get net hits a threshold of 6 would on average need a 18 die pool, 21 die pool would be a single net hit. Magic 6 is max starting, skill 6 is max starting though I guess you could have expertise in rituals for 7 dice or 12-13 max starting before bonus dice.  So you would need to come up with 5-6 bonus dice from your totem or focuses just to get the ritual off. That is a lot of optimizing to just barely succeed.  Lets say wards are the lowest threshold at 3, a relatively standard mage tossing their 12 dice would on average get 1 net hit, a 1 force ward isn't really something that will stop any astral objects, and will be easily bypassed by those with the skills to do so.

Theoretically for NPCs they are done as team work tests, so for example Aztechnology in a blood magic ritual had 6 shamans working together to do this and 4 of those shamans toss bonus dice to the ritual leader 1 would act as a spotter, or if they trusted a spirit to do the spotting, 5 mages toss bonus dice.  I don't know how teamwork tests work in 6e, so if there is a max benefit from this I don't know. Players usually don't have a team of mages to get into rituals with, its usually one mage on your shadowrun team.

In previous editions a solo caster could do rituals fairly successfully, but they wouldn't be crazy powerful.  They would be good enough to ward your apartment or temporary base of operations, to summon watchers, maybe toss a curse at unprotected targets etc. Now I just don't see how that happens mathematically.

Now maybe things have changed and 20+ die mages are the norm, but my group in previous editions generally didn't optimize quite that far, or at least the mage player didn't. But it seems odd to try to get rid of massive soak pool then push for massive magic pools, so I'm guessing that still isn't the norm in 6e.

It comes down to in 5e they were useful to players but far more potent in the hands of those who could pull together ritual teams(usually corps of enemy groups), now they don't seem to mathematically work for players and are probably still powerful for corporations. I'm not sure if that is a design goal, they didn't carry the one when doing the math, or there is some hidden math in edge or reagents for rituals, like 2 edge reduces the threshold to 0 or something.

[markelphoenix]

So from what I understand they all now have thresholds to beat to function and net hits determine the effect. The lowest threshold is 3 but most are around 6.

What is the intent here?  Are they supposed to be removed form the players hands, to force massive edge use every time you cast a ritual though even then I’m not sure that will make this work for the players.

The dice pool last necessary to pull these off are just outside the range of players unless they literally go magic run and everyone is a mage. I get rituals should work better in groups but they used to be functional for the solo mage. We warded, created watchers, homonculus, cursed people, created super range detection spells etc. now that seems impossible.

Can you explain how these thresholds are unrealistic? What would be required to say, statistically, consistently hit a threshold of 6, and what kind of benefit would a threshold 6 Ritual get you? Specificity rather than generality tends to help understanding.

To just hit and not get net hits a threshold of 6 would on average need a 18 die pool, 21 die pool would be a single net hit. Magic 6 is max starting, skill 6 is max starting though I guess you could have expertise in rituals for 7 dice or 12-13 max starting before bonus dice.  So you would need to come up with 5-6 bonus dice from your totem or focuses just to get the ritual off. That is a lot of optimizing to just barely succeed.  Lets say wards are the lowest threshold at 3, a relatively standard mage tossing their 12 dice would on average get 1 net hit, a 1 force ward isn't really something that will stop any astral objects, and will be easily bypassed by those with the skills to do so.

Theoretically for NPCs they are done as team work tests, so for example Aztechnology in a blood magic ritual had 6 shamans working together to do this and 4 of those shamans toss bonus dice to the ritual leader 1 would act as a spotter, or if they trusted a spirit to do the spotting, 5 mages toss bonus dice.  I don't know how teamwork tests work in 6e, so if there is a max benefit from this I don't know. Players usually don't have a team of mages to get into rituals with, its usually one mage on your shadowrun team.

In previous editions a solo caster could do rituals fairly successfully, but they wouldn't be crazy powerful.  They would be good enough to ward your apartment or temporary base of operations, to summon watchers, maybe toss a curse at unprotected targets etc. Now I just don't see how that happens mathematically.

Now maybe things have changed and 20+ die mages are the norm, but my group in previous editions generally didn't optimize quite that far, or at least the mage player didn't. But it seems odd to try to get rid of massive soak pool then push for massive magic pools, so I'm guessing that still isn't the norm in 6e.

It comes down to in 5e they were useful to players but far more potent in the hands of those who could pull together ritual teams(usually corps of enemy groups), now they don't seem to mathematically work for players and are probably still powerful for corporations. I'm not sure if that is a design goal, they didn't carry the one when doing the math, or there is some hidden math in edge or reagents for rituals, like 2 edge reduces the threshold to 0 or something.

Well, from what we know from past editions and their splat books, Magic Groups that help with Initiation as well as ritual casting is a thing. They even had rules for starting your own. Doesn't seem unreasonable that for specific things, getting a group involved would make sense.....now, where it gets risky, is if you're trying to frag somebody with a ritual spell. Is the ritual group down for that? What kind of group are they? Runner friendly coalition of slingers who formed up to keep the mojo flowing the shadows? A group of academic friends from an academic background? (must be nice coming from a privileged background....how is that SIN treating you?) etc. etc. etc.

You also already mentioned Foci? It's not unreasonable goal for a `slinger to go for a Power Foci either as fast as possible, or grabbing it through chargen. If you go for a Power Foci +4, that is an additional +4 Dice. Add in initiation and Magic increases, adds extra dice as well. This seems like for the threshold 3-4 almost trivial, and the 5 to 6 a challenge. Once you involve a Ritaul Group, seems like it becomes even easier.

Without seeing a list of what Ritual options SR6e gives you, can't really make a judgement call on threshold being worth it or not.

I do agree there should be certain rituals that would be solo no brainers.

[Michael Chandra]

If we assume a skill rank of 6, plus 6 teamwork hits, 12 base dice pre-teamwork means ~3/5 chance, 14 base dice mean ~7/10 chance, when it comes to 6 hits.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well even with 6 team work, 6 from the skill, 6 magic, lets say 2 from your totem and 4 from a focus that's 24 dice and would only get 2 net hits.  I hope those net hits are super potent. But again, generally the players don't have teams of mages. So I guess the question is, was that the design intent. To effectively remove ritual magic from the players?

[markelphoenix]

Well even with 6 team work, 6 from the skill, 6 magic, lets say 2 from your totem and 4 from a focus that's 24 dice and would only get 2 net hits.  I hope those net hits are super potent. But again, generally the players don't have teams of mages. So I guess the question is, was that the design intent. To effectively remove ritual magic from the players?

Again....what kind of Rituals are at threshold 6? If there is one useless Ritual at bottom threshold and all the rest are 6, I would agree that is concerning. If there is a series of interesting options across rituals at different thresholds, with threshold 6 rituals being sufficiently powerful, I would say it is fine as is.

[Michael Chandra]

Let's see, we got a 4+, two 5s, four 6s, one 7. Five of the rituals are based on net hits for duration, two others involve a secondary test instead, the third uses hits.

If you have Sorcery 6, Magic 6, a Focus Force 3, a Specialization in Ritual Spellcasting, then the odds on 5/6/7 solo are approx 72%, 52%, 33%. If we assume you get +4 dice from teamwork with a single other mage, those odds become 88%, 75%, 58%.

Rituals appear tough straight out of chargen, even if you focus on them, but then again rituals can be incredibly useful and you still have some wicked options even if you don't have a killer ritual team. However, the really badass stuff should be left to NPCs.

[markelphoenix]

Let's see, we got a 4+, two 5s, four 6s, one 7. Five of the rituals are based on net hits for duration, two others involve a secondary test instead, the third uses hits.

If you have Sorcery 6, Magic 6, a Focus Force 3, a Specialization in Ritual Spellcasting, then the odds on 5/6/7 solo are approx 72%, 52%, 33%. If we assume you get +4 dice from teamwork with a single other mage, those odds become 88%, 75%, 58%.

Rituals appear tough straight out of chargen, even if you focus on them, but then again rituals can be incredibly useful and you still have some wicked options even if you don't have a killer ritual team. However, the really badass stuff should be left to NPCs.

If the threshold 7 one was along the lines of, "Ritual Target is cursed, until a ritual of equal power is performed on target, target takes -6 Dice Penalty on all rolls, must make threshold test of Body (6), if fails takes 2P damage a day.", I would agree that the odds are a little insane. For me, it is all about Payoff for succeeding. If there is a big Payoff, I am fine with it being more difficult. If it's the equivalent of, "Target has trouble sleeping, can resist effect with Willpower (1) and have undistrubed rest"....yeah, not worth attempting a threshold 7.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Okay I’d need 7 hits to make a rating 1 ward which a highschool kid who wants to peep on his neighbor can get through, drains pretty mild though. Not sure why anyone would spend reagents to reduce the drain given how mild it will be.

It really just does not work math wise for PCs.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Okay. I read up on teamwork tests and even ritual teams won’t pull this off without serious min maxing. 6 magic 6 sorcery dude with a team can get 6 bonus dice for teamwork max. So 18 dice. Still can’t make a ward. Would need totem, specialization focusses, edge etc to pull off a freaking rating 1 ward. Did opposed dice become threshold somewhere along the way by accident. The math just does not work.