[emsquared]

Hey everybody,

I need some help. I haven't played SR since 2nd Ed., like 12+ years ago, and now I want to get in on some 4E action. My group is more experienced than I am with 4E, so I want to be sure I have a runner that can contribute in a meaningful way (read: a fairly optimal build). I'm trying to build a face(1st)/infiltrator(2nd) runner (with of course passable gun skills), and I want to go the physical adept route. I have no clue if this is optimal for a face, but I like the idea of just looking like a business man (or every-man) i.e. not all chromed-out - although I understand it is most optimal to get some bioware, in lieu of analogous adept abilities(?).

I have checked out Umaro's Spook archetype and Aria's "Escapade" Adept for some insight into what should go into a good face/infiltrator, but I'm running into some roadblocks early (i.e. not enough BP after Attributes and Skills ). I imagine it means I just need to slim down on my stats or skills somewhere, but I'd like some help doing that - here's what I have so far:

BP
-30 Elf

-05 Adept

+10 SINner (Criminal)
+05 Incompetent: Animal Training
+05 Incompetent: Animal Handling (he really doesn't like animals)

-20 BOD 3
-30 AGI 5
-30 REA 4
-10 STR 2
-20 CHR 5
-30 INT 4
-20 LOG 3
-20 WIL 3
-10 EDG 2

-75 MAG 6

-40 Influence Skill Group 4
-04 Disguise 1
-04 Escape Artist 1
-16 Gymnastics 4
-12 Hardware 3
-12 Infiltration 3
-04 Intimidate 1
-04 Locksmith 1
-08 Perception 2
-20 Pistols 5
-04 Shadowing 1

Which would leave me with just 2 BP left... And while I understand that it's not optimal to purchase 1 skill level in your skills, I more just listed them above to show (some of) where I'd like to go with the character. So, take out the 5, lvl 1 skills and I have 22 BP, which even then is only 110K nuyen to play with for goodies, and that's with no contacts and a rather anemic skill-set...

What can I do?

Should I drop that 6th point on Magic?

I'm not attached to being an elf, but I feel like I'd just be spending those points on the same stats anyway, and I wouldn't get free low-light vision.

I know I could pick up some more BP in Negative Qualities, but I don't like having the ones I do have already   What supplement book has more to choose from?

Other thoughts?

[Scarecrow71]

For starters, drop the 6th point in Magic.  It's costing you 25 BP to get that one point, which at character creation isn't worth it if you aren't casting spells.

Secondly, I recommend taking the entire Stealth skill group at 4.  40 BP, yes, but gives you Disguise, Infiltration, Palming and Shadowing all at 4.

Not really sure if you need Pistols at 5 and Gymnastics at 4.  Heck, I'm not sure you need Gymnastics at all.  Remember that you get Adept powers, some of which can compensate for having low skill ratings at character creation.  And you start with a number of power points equal to your MAG rating (which, if you take my advice, would be 5 power points).  For example:

• Combat Sense (.5 power points per level) gives you 1 extra die per level for Reaction on surprise tests, as well as 1 extra die per level when defending against ranged and melee attacks
• Enhanced Perception (.25 power points per level) gives you 1 extra die per level for Perception tests.
• Improved Ability (.5 per level combat; .25 per level non-combat) gives you 1 extra die per level for a specific active skill

These are just examples, and I highly recommend you read through the powers in SR4A and SM to figure out which ones you really need.  And I'm going to suggest that, at the very least, you get Improved Reflexes and Kinesics based on your concept.

Finally, you are sitting at -20 BP taken for negative qualities, and you can go up to -35.  If you are really worried about cash, take In Debt (15,000).  That gives you 15,000 Y to start with AND gives you 15 more BP to play around with.

To answer your questions:

1.  As stated, drop the 6th point in MAG.
2.  Actually, being an Elf is perfect for your being a Face as you are start with a higher CHA than humans.  The BP for being an Elf vs. a human and jacking the CHA isn't even close, with the elf spending far less BP to get to 5 (20) than an human (40), but when you factor in the BP cost of being an elf, now you're talking 55 BP (15 more than a human).  It's a matter of if you really want low-light vision or not (in my opinion).
3.  Books with negative qualities:  Augmentation, Runner's Companion, Running Wild, SR4A, Street Magic, The Way of the Adept, Unwired.

[Glyph]

Elves are 10 BP more expensive than humans (30 cost to be an elf, 30 points of Attribute bonuses, but no Edge bonus).  If you are not taking advantage of their higher maximums in Agility and Charisma, you might as well play a human.

I agree with Scare_Crow that you don't need to start out with a Magic of 6.  A Magic of 5 saves you 25 build points, and you can take another 15 points in negative qualities.  An example of combining Magic with augmentation would be: 2.00 points of bioware (lowers Magic to 3) - cerebral booster: 2, muscle toner: 2,  synaptic boosters: 1, tailored pheromones: 3, and vocal range enhancer; 3 points of adept powers - commanding voice, facial sculpt: 3, kinesics: 3, melanin control.  If you stay with pure magic (no augmentations, but Magic is 5), then add increased reflexes: 1 and either 1 point of combat sense or 2 points of enhanced perception to your adept powers.

[Henzington]

I would consider going ork although it will limit your charisma to 4(7) but it will give you 3 points in body and 2 in strength.  Since your logic is only at 3 this wont be affected also.

[UmaroVI]

That's not a bad start.

Re: Elf, it's not necessary to be an elf to be an effective face/infiltrator, but it's a perfectly reasonable choice. However, you should have a 7 charisma if you plan to go elf.

Definitely drop the 6th point of magic. You're trying to cover 3 roles; you just can't afford it.

Can you use Ways?

You do want a little 'ware. You can stick with non-obvious bioware and be fine, though, and you don't need a lot. Tailored Pheremones 3 and Muscle Toner 2 will cost you 1 magic and thus 1 PP, and is +3 to social skills and +2 agility, which is much better than what you can buy with 1 PP.

Spirit Bane: Beast Spirits seems to fit well with your current negative qualities. There are various options for the last 5 points; maybe if you want to stick with the "doesn't like animals" theme, a 5-point allergy to some common animal (cats, for example)?

I'd lose a point of Logic. You only have one Logic-linked skill (Hardware) and you are thus better off boosting it directly.

I'd estimate you at needing about 100k in gear. The ware I am recommending is 61k,; 39k should cover the other necessities. If you're running over that, you probably have a case of widgetitis. Keep in mind that as an adept there's only so much gear you will ever need in your life, so you don't want to buy too much at chargen. If you can't get everything you want, gear is what you should axe.

I can give you more specific advice, but I want to know if you can use Ways or not first because that does change things.

[emsquared]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

RE: Elf vs. Human, I did forget about the human Edge bump, but Edge is a special attribute, so even though it's a cheaper Meta-type, I can't quite hit the same attribute build with a human that I can with an elf...

I do want Pistols (at least) 5 and respectable Gymnastics (as it can be specialized into a "Dodge-like" skill, correct?), because, I do want to be a passable combatant - knowing the GM(s) in my group, there is going to be at least some combat every session. I simply just can't skimp here any more than I already am. I'll have to look into the stealth group after the meta-type/attribute/qualities are situated, could lose most of the ground I gain though ...

Some good suggestions on the Neg Qualities, I'll find some to make it work...

I haven't had access to Ways of the Adept, until tonight (!! ), my group is meeting for our weekly Pathfinder game and one of the guys is also in the SR4E group, he's loaning me a bunch of supplements for the build process.

I could do a human build if I drop that logic point, however it seems like Logic (and Hardware) is the pinnacle of my 2ndry focus. I suppose I could just pick up an extra point of Hardware with my saved attribute BP though, huh?

I will come back with a revised build in the next couple days (after I have a chance to go through the supplements my buddy is bringing).

Thanks again!

[emsquared]

Okay, revised build.

BP
-00 Human

-05 Adept

+10 SINner (Criminal)
+10 Spirit Bane: Beasts
+05 Mild, Uncommon Allergy: Cats
+05 Incompetent: Animal Training
+05 Incompetent: Animal Handling (will probably play with the Neg Qualities a bit, there's a lot to go through...)

-20 BOD 3
-40 AGI 5
-30 REA 4
-10 STR 2
-40 CHR 5
-30 INT 4
-10 LOG 2
-20 WIL 3
-00 EDG 2

-40 MAG 5

-40 Influence Skill Group 4
       Con 4
       Ettiquette 4
       Leadership 4
       Negotiation 4
-30 Stealth Skill Group 3
       Disguise 3
       Infiltration 3
       Palming 3
       Shadowing 3
-16 Gymnastics 4
-20 Hardware 5
-12 Intimidate 3
-12 Perception 3
-20 Pistols 5

Leaves me with 40 BP for Nuyen, Contacts (I could see spending up to 15 BP, on my peepz), possibly a Way of the Adept or more skillz (!?).  Feels much better, already. I feel like my skills are much more robust and functional as a package. Not completely sold on the Stealth Group, as I could probably default on Palming in most circumstances and fare alright, and disguise is more just icing on the cake, but I'll go with it for now - as like I said, I feel like it does make a very complete package. Thoughts on the skill-set?
 
My attraction to Perception comes from playing D&D, where it is of course the most used skill in the game. It seems like it should be the same deal in SR4, but I dunno, is it a good buy? It seems like noticing the little things is very important for a Face/Infiltrator.

Regarding Adept Ways, it seems like there's two approaches to take: select a Way to make an expensive Power that I really want - or two -  cheaper (like Combat Reflexes) even though it's other Powers aren't that central to my roles, or select a Way that entirely benefits Powers that I want now or will someday want. The math is a little shaky though isn't it, especially if you're mixing bioware in? If I sink 2 Essence into chrome, I'll have 3 MAG and wouldn't be able to even apply my Way discount to a second Power until I get some good Karma flowing my way, and furthermore would likely have to Initiate at least once (and probably 2 or 4 times!) to finally recoup my 10 BP, no? That seems like quite the long-term investment.

There's so many options for combos of chrome and powers, I can definitely use some help here. There's already been some good suggestions, keep 'em coming! I do know(/think) I would like to have 2 Initiative Passes... because as much as being a Face is my primary role, let's be honest, Wayne Brady is always gonna have to choke a b!#@%.

Thanks again.
M²

Oh, and here are the supplements I have access to: Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Street Magic, Way of the Adept and Runner's Companion (and I think he has others, but this is what I got last week).

[UmaroVI]

Perception is definitely useful.

You could drop Stealth and just keep Infiltration; it's not a bad skill group but I can see just wanting Infiltration.

I'd swap Gymnastics for Dodge.

Try to get Perception and Intimidate to 4.

5/5 on skills is bad because of karma costs. Go 6/4 or 4/6.

Adept ways are always worth it. You can actually make your investment back very quickly, but the different ways aren't very balanced and it's often hard to figure out which one works best. The idea is that you want around as many PP of expensive powers you can take as possible, NOT as many powers as possible. A lot of ways look nice because they have really long lists, but a list full of .25 PP powers is not very good compared to a shorter list that has a few expensive ones.

If you care somewhat about combat, even if it's not your primary focus, you should probably use Way of the Warrior. Improved Reflexes 3 is 1 PP of savings right there, although probably I wouldn't start with that. A good setup would be (with 4 PP, which you'll have with 20 karma even after 2 essence of 'ware) would be Kinesics 3 (1.5), Commanding Voice (.25), Improved Reflexes 2 discounted (1.875), Combat Sense 1 discounted (.325).

[ArkangelWinter]

I'd drop Gymnastics for Dodge

Unless you plan to pick up a melee skill for close defense.

[Rartemass]

You can also use specialisations to improve a skill for cheaper.
A specialisation costs 2 BP and gives you a +2 dice pool in that specific situation.
So for Infiltration you could specialise in Urban. As long as you aren't going into the wilderness you should be fine. So you can drop your Infiltration by 1 (saving 4 BP) and specialise in Urban (costing 2BP) and still get good usage out of it but save a net total of 2BP.
Do that for a few skills and your points add up.

With your list I would consider the following skill ratings and specialisations:
Perception 2 (Visual)
Pistols 4 (specific pistol)
Gymnastics 3 (Parkour)
Intimidate 2 (Mental)

The reasons can be as follows:
Perception on visual can be watching people for tells like in poker
Pistol is simply you have a preferred weapon and can make it a signature weapon and modify it so people know it is uniquely yours
Parkour will help with the infiltrator things by getting over roof tops easier and when having to flee.
Mental intimidation plays into the face character perfectly. They don't really use physical threats but mess with your mind. Having a knowledge skill in Psychology would also help here.

That gives you 8 extra points and gives a bit more flavour.

I agree in dropping the Stealth group. Keep Infiltration and specialise in Urban. I'd also suggest to keep Shadowing and specialise in tail evasion.
Even keeping these two skills at rating 3 and specialised it will cost 28 BP, saving you 12.

With all that you have 20 BP. I'd consider dumping 12 BP into Dodge for rating 3. For standard melee defence you use reaction + dodge. If you use full defence then you can add your dodge again or add you gymnastics. On full defence you then have a choice of using reaction (4) + dodge (3), then either dodge (3) again, or if you can avoid the damage using parkour (GM decision) you can add gymnastics (5).

That leaves 8 BP for other things. I'd definitely consider 5 BP for the First Impression positive quality.

[emsquared]

Wanted to let you all know what I ended up with.

BP
-00 Human

-05 Adept

+05 SINner
+30 In Debt 30,000Y

-20 BOD 3
-40 AGI 5
-30 REA 4
-10 STR 2
-40 CHR 5
-30 INT 4
-10 LOG 2
-20 WIL 3
-00 EDG 2

-40 MAG 5

-40 Influence Skill Group 4
       Con 4
       Ettiquette 4
       Leadership 4
       Negotiation 4
-16 Dodge 4
-14 Infiltration 3 (Urban Specialization)
-14 Intimidation 3 (Mental Specialization)
-10 Palming 2 (Legerdemain Specialization)
-14 Perception 3 (Visual Specialization)
-24 Pistols 6

-00 Business 3
-00 Religion 3
-00 Underworld 3
-00 Security Design 3
-00 English N
-00 Arabic 1
-00 Japanese 1
-00 Mandarin 1
-00 Sioux 1
-00 Spanish 1
-00 Sperethiel 1

-48 240,000Y (!)

CHROME
Muscle Toner - II
Tailored Pheromones - III
Synaptic Booster - II ... o'.'o

ADEPT POWERS
Kinesics - III
Combat Sense - II
Motion Sense

Which left me with 2, 3/3 Contacts and 39,000Y for my Lifestyle, guns, armor and toys (I spent pretty much every last penny). Them Synaptic Boosters ain't cheap!

As you can see I ended up dropping Hardware completely. I just couldn't get it to a viable dice pool. I did pick up Palming, so I'll just have to rely on my party Hacker, manipulating people and possibly stealing to get me through doors, locks, etc. As you can also see, I went nuts and bought synaptic boosters (how are you supposed to resist 3 initiative passes for 1 essence?!?) >.<  Couldn't resist. So now I'm pretty much the Face/Inside Man/Up-Close-and-Personal-Shoot-You-In-the-Dome, guy.

Unfortunately couldn't do an Adept Way AND get my synaptic boosters. I figure 32 BP bought me the Boosters, and it would have taken a Way (10BP) and 2.25 PP/Magic (~22.5 BP) to get Improved Reflexes 2, which is roughly 32.5 BP, so I consider myself the winner by a hair   Ultimately what drove the choice was that combat is very central to our GMs style (and our group, and probably Shadowrun in general) and I'm still a fantastic face and really, a quite capable infiltrator, I just have to manipulate people instead of hardware to do it.

I'm super happy with my end PC, mechanically, and he is super fun to play! Thanks for all your help everyone!

[emsquared]

Well, in light of discovering Chummer and subsequently the optional Adepts and Geasa rule, I have redesigned my Face - hopefully my GM will allow a swap out since we've only had one session yet, and he can do everything my old PC could, but now he is just even more fun and Adept-like.

Gone are the synaptic boosters, replaced by basically a bunch of cool and flavor. Feels more like an Adept now for sure. I just printed out the Chummer file and attached low quality jpgs of it...

Final thoughts?

[Ethan]

Looks interesting. Just a quick glance at the Adept Powers, I think Motion Sense is 0.5 points and I'd rather have Commanding Voice and Sustenance.

CV lets you use your Face-ness to give simple commands to people. Yelling "Stand up!" to people that are hiding in cover in a shootout is just too awesome.

Sustenance means a nap is as good as a night's rest for you.

[emsquared]

I absolutely intend on getting both of those eventually (CV probably my next grab), but I really like Motion Sense as an infiltrator, especially as an infiltrator who I envision hiding in plain sight while infiltrating. Going places I'm not supposed to be, while looking like I'm supposed to be there. Knowing whether there's a guard on the other side of that door or around the corner or whatever, and being able to avoid them without looking like I'm avoiding them, without physically snooping about, is invaluable to me.