[hayek]

Wait, what Xenon? And hayek, for that matter.

Mechanically speaking, the two are similar enough to be the same device except with different costs. You get the same benefit from a mechanics standpoint regardless of how you think the fluff works, and I could just as easily counter your "it's a display on your limb) argument with two words: Augmented. Reality. To my mind, it's really not a stretch to think that in a world of wireless interconnectedness a sensor (ultrasound in this case) can communicate wirelessly with your commlink, which in turn can communicate with your AR glasses to show you sensor readouts overlaid over your normal vision.

But, the above is just fluff; again, mechanically the two are identical except for the fact that the implant actually replaces your normal vision when on, and a sensor does not. So, to my mind, not only is the sensor less expensive, it's also, in fact, better. Which is interesting from a game balance perspective.

Yes, I agree there's easily an argument to be made that the hand-held sensor should be able to overlay your vision based on the 'physics' fo the game world. I'm arguing that you shouldn't accept this argument, not because of anything about the 'physics' of the game world, but because of 'gamist' reasons - so there's an interesting decision to be made between the two types of ultrasound sensors, and there's a reason to actually spend more on the fancy headware sensor. And because it's just plain cooler to put a sensor in your head (or cyberlimb) than walking around with a 'tricorder' and you should get a benefit for that cool factor.

[RHat]

Wait, what Xenon? And hayek, for that matter.

Mechanically speaking, the two are similar enough to be the same device except with different costs. You get the same benefit from a mechanics standpoint regardless of how you think the fluff works, and I could just as easily counter your "it's a display on your limb) argument with two words: Augmented. Reality. To my mind, it's really not a stretch to think that in a world of wireless interconnectedness a sensor (ultrasound in this case) can communicate wirelessly with your commlink, which in turn can communicate with your AR glasses to show you sensor readouts overlaid over your normal vision.

But, the above is just fluff; again, mechanically the two are identical except for the fact that the implant actually replaces your normal vision when on, and a sensor does not. So, to my mind, not only is the sensor less expensive, it's also, in fact, better. Which is interesting from a game balance perspective.

Yes, I agree there's easily an argument to be made that the hand-held sensor should be able to overlay your vision based on the 'physics' fo the game world. I'm arguing that you shouldn't accept this argument, not because of anything about the 'physics' of the game world, but because of 'gamist' reasons - so there's an interesting decision to be made between the two types of ultrasound sensors, and there's a reason to actually spend more on the fancy headware sensor. And because it's just plain cooler to put a sensor in your head (or cyberlimb) than walking around with a 'tricorder' and you should get a benefit for that cool factor.

You mean other than the "I always have it with me, and you need an ultrasound sensor to know I'm using it" factor?  The ability toget an actual decent rating, where a handheld sensor is limited to Rating 3?

[JackVII]

You mean other than the "I always have it with me, and you need an ultrasound sensor to know I'm using it" factor?  The ability toget an actual decent rating, where a handheld sensor is limited to Rating 3?

You can get an R5 sensor array with an ultrasound sensor (and 7 other sensors) installed in a cyberarm for 6 capacity and 5K per the Sensor section on p. 446. I think what many of us are questioning is what the distinction is between the two as it isn't readily clear.

[RHat]

You mean other than the "I always have it with me, and you need an ultrasound sensor to know I'm using it" factor?  The ability toget an actual decent rating, where a handheld sensor is limited to Rating 3?

You can get an R5 sensor array with an ultrasound sensor (and 7 other sensors) installed in a cyberarm for 6 capacity and 5K per the Sensor section on p. 446. I think what many of us are questioning is what the distinction is between the two as it isn't readily clear.

Which, quite specifically, that is NOT a handheld sensor.

[JackVII]

You mean other than the "I always have it with me, and you need an ultrasound sensor to know I'm using it" factor?  The ability toget an actual decent rating, where a handheld sensor is limited to Rating 3?

You can get an R5 sensor array with an ultrasound sensor (and 7 other sensors) installed in a cyberarm for 6 capacity and 5K per the Sensor section on p. 446. I think what many of us are questioning is what the distinction is between the two as it isn't readily clear.

Which, quite specifically, that is NOT a handheld sensor.

Earlier in the thread, and where this sidebar started from, an argument was made that a sensor installed in a cyberlimb was essentially a hand-held sensor, or at least functioned in a similar manner.

[RHat]

You mean other than the "I always have it with me, and you need an ultrasound sensor to know I'm using it" factor?  The ability toget an actual decent rating, where a handheld sensor is limited to Rating 3?

You can get an R5 sensor array with an ultrasound sensor (and 7 other sensors) installed in a cyberarm for 6 capacity and 5K per the Sensor section on p. 446. I think what many of us are questioning is what the distinction is between the two as it isn't readily clear.

Which, quite specifically, that is NOT a handheld sensor.

Earlier in the thread, and where this sidebar started from, an argument was made that a sensor installed in a cyberlimb was essentially a hand-held sensor, or at least functioned in a similar manner.

Which is not true - a handheld sensor and a sensor array installed in a cyberlimb are two very, very different things; radically different under the rules, too.

[martinchaen]

How so, RHat? And besides sensor rating, there's no mechani al difference between a single sensor installed in a cyberlimb and one in a handheld device. The same goes for cyberware ultrasound and sensor ultrasound, they function the same from a rules perspective.