[Overbyte]

Automatic successes are calculated after AP is subtracted; so in this case, 4. This is part of the rules on Hardened Armor on p. 397.

Ah.. looked back at this and saw that little parenthetical.. Thanks Top.

[Max Mustermann]

Hi to all,

it seems, that evereybody plays that way, that AP effects "Immunity" (CRB, p. 397). I thought, that AP does not effect "Immunity", it effects "Hardened Armor", right?

best regards Max

[Jack_Spade]

Immunity is a defined term that causes the hardened armor rules to be applied. Hardened armor interacts with the armor piercing rules.
So Immunity is indirectly affected by AP.

[Max Mustermann]

Immunity is a defined term that causes the hardened armor rules to be applied. Hardened armor interacts with the armor piercing rules.
So Immunity is indirectly affected by AP.

in the german Forum we had and have some discussion about this ... :-), due to that after the "linking" to Hardened Armor, some special "immunity-rules" follows...

best regards Max

[Top Dog]

Why wouldn't AP apply to Immunity? AP works against Hardened Armor because the rules for Hardened Armor says they do. And the rules for Immunity say you have an effective Hardened Armor rating (against relevant attacks only). That Hardened Armor rating follows the same rules as other Hardened Armor - including those regarding AP.

The lines following the link to Hardened Armor are a simplified version of Hardened Armor. If those were the full rules, there would be no link to Hardened Armor needed.

[Max Mustermann]

Why wouldn't AP apply to Immunity? AP works against Hardened Armor because the rules for Hardened Armor says they do. And the rules for Immunity say you have an effective Hardened Armor rating (against relevant attacks only). That Hardened Armor rating follows the same rules as other Hardened Armor - including those regarding AP.

The lines following the link to Hardened Armor are a simplified version of Hardened Armor. If those were the full rules, there would be no link to Hardened Armor needed.

the rules following the link, seems a little bit contradictory.

Hardened Armor is described as:

"[...] If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less the the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the Attack does not damage.[...] If the modified Damage Value is greater than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), then perform a Damage Resistance test for the critter as normal. [...]"

Immunity ist described as:

"[...] This means that if the modified Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the Immunity's rating, then the attack automatically does no damage. If the modified DV exceeds the Immunity rating, perform a Damage Resistance test as normal, adding the Immunity rating to the dice pool for this test.[...]"

I read some different wording, for HA, modified by AP, for Immunity there ist no AP modification, quite the contrary, the last sentence assign that you have to adding the Immunity rating (Essence x2) to the Damage Resistence test (without AP).

I don't understand this... :-(

best regards Max

[Top Dog]

The rules for Immunity are "Effectively, the critter has a Hardened Armor rating equal to twice its essence agaisnt that particular kind of damage (see Hardened Armor)". The next bit is a clarification what that means.

The clarification doesn't supersede the link to Hardened Armor, it's just a (short and incomplete) description of what Hardened Armor does. If the bit after the link was the whole rule, the link to hardened armor would be meaningless, since it adds nothing to the description (the only difference between the Hardened Armor rules and the short explanation in Immunity is the part about AP, after all).

Sure, it's not a stellar example of editing - it'd be clearer without the "clarification". But that it follows the Hardened Armor rules seems clear.

[Max Mustermann]

The rules for Immunity are "Effectively, the critter has a Hardened Armor rating equal to twice its essence agaisnt that particular kind of damage (see Hardened Armor)". The next bit is a clarification what that means.

The clarification doesn't supersede the link to Hardened Armor, it's just a (short and incomplete) description of what Hardened Armor does. If the bit after the link was the whole rule, the link to hardened armor would be meaningless, since it adds nothing to the description (the only difference between the Hardened Armor rules and the short explanation in Immunity is the part about AP, after all).

Sure, it's not a stellar example of editing - it'd be clearer without the "clarification". But that it follows the Hardened Armor rules seems clear.

i understand you, but i think the "link" to Hardened Armor is just "Fluff" because the wording "Effektively...". The clarification after the "link" aren't a description of what Hardened Armor does, it is a description of what Immunity does. I think we won't agree on this 

Thanks, best regards Max

[Facemage]

>Can you guys comment on what spirits you prefer (and why).

I think that the best basic spirit is Spirit of man. He has the Innate Spell optional power (Improved invisibility, stun bolt, increase [attribute], increase reflexes are good spells for the spirit). If you can take a possession tradition you can also get a task spirit with Skill Optional power ( useful skills: demolitions, locksmith, first aid, armorer etc). So, one of the best tradition is Vodou, they get both before mentioned spirits. Drain is will+ cha, so an elf with Vodou tradition is a strong mage indeed.

If you face e.g. F10 spirit, it have typically 1-2 services and it's unbound. If you want to bind F10 spirit, you need 5000 money and >20 dice in your binding pool (magic+binding+focus+situational bonuses (specialization)) to success more than 50% surely.  It is quite much. Bound F10 spirits are summoned by high elite mages and that's why they are rare enemies.

It is quite easy to banish unbound F10 spirit. In basic setup it's 12 v. 10 dices, and if you success to remove one service, the spirit is probably gone.