[Beta]

Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.

It seems like they'd have a lot less impact that in 1st/2nd where they lowered the target number, which didn't take much to lower enemy successes by a factor of three.  That was enough to keep the caster in my game from trying them, but what I'm reading is that they are still potent -- is this on a more generic 12 or so dice pool, or is this for specialized builds?

[falar]

Generic 12 on Euphoria gets 4 hits, resisted by Logic + Willpower. On a normal mook, let's assume 2 WIllpower, 2 Logic, so about 1 hit. If you get more hits than the mook has Willpower, he's just out of the fight.

[halflingmage]

  I don't like guns that bite me with no real benefit over and above a gun.
 

So you have a gun that has no range penalty within line of sight, debuffs initiative, can have a bigger AP than APDS, and imposes a small dice pool penalty on basically all checks?  That is a pretty cool gun.  Again with a fetish Force 8 is 8P AP-8 plus extra effects stated, for only 3 drain, and this build I am looking at has 13 dice, average 4 and 1/3 hits to resist that.  Yes, once in a while you will get a little stun or a point of physcal, but its not like you are going to be laying yourself out all the time.  Even if you go down to force 7 with the -7AP and the debuffs its still better than a heavy pistol in my view once you factor in the debuffs, and its only 2 drain. 

[halflingmage]

Generic 12 on Euphoria gets 4 hits, resisted by Logic + Willpower. On a normal mook, let's assume 2 WIllpower, 2 Logic, so about 1 hit. If you get more hits than the mook has Willpower, he's just out of the fight.

I am not knocking debuffs at the tactically right time

but

Those are some really really mooky mooks.  Even a pro rating 0 non-lieutenant has a bigger pool than that.

Debuffs are great if you are ganging up on a tough target.  But I find that in many cases you impose a penalty on the target and take about the same penalty yourself from sustaining the spell.  Thats ok if you are setting someone up for a team mate, but on some targets the cost in terms of action economy and spell sustaining doesn't really justify the two or three dice you are going to penalize them. 

And yes, I know some people are big advocates of AOE debuffs, but how often do you get a group of bad guys to bunch up and stay put?  If you are having a fight in a bar you are likely to get friendly fire, and you also just basically told the blade adept to hang back use his pistol because you have a chaotic world spell going. 

As I said, not knocking debuffs in general, I like to have one on the list myself, but they are one option among many, not necessarily the first best option always.

[Whiskeyjack]

Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.

It seems like they'd have a lot less impact that in 1st/2nd where they lowered the target number, which didn't take much to lower enemy successes by a factor of three.  That was enough to keep the caster in my game from trying them, but what I'm reading is that they are still potent -- is this on a more generic 12 or so dice pool, or is this for specialized builds?

Well, it's a big opposed test, versus 2 attributes (unlike the 1 for direct combat spells) so the bigger the pool, the better the changes. That said, a lot of enemies aren't mental juggernauts.

A dice pool of 12 translates into roughly 4 successes on average, without consideration of dice spikes and Edge use. That's risky number of successes when opposed. But with low enemy pools that could translate to a -3 to enemy dice pools with Chaotic World, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[Facemage]

I think that the biggest problem with area illusion spells is the need to sustain them. Which means investments on sustaining tools. Moreover, their drain is high. Or otherwise their radius is so small that if the enemy moves one step away, you loose the benefits.

So, you have to select between low force illusion spell or area combat spell. We can assume that both strategies have sustaining power (e.g. F5 focused concentration). I selected area combat spells. I can safely cast F7/F6 ball lightning/blast which almost kills/stuns everyone who stays on the area, they are difficult to evade (huge area) and no need to sustain. Drain is 4, but my drain pool is 17 (increase willpower sustained). Moreover, I can select combat spell specialization and mentor with combat spell bonus. And use also powerful clouts and stun bolts if needed. I think that the synergy is better than use of illusion spells and e.g. raven as a mentor spirit. In that case your stun bolt is weaker. Moreover, the willpower bonus is otherwise useful (higher full defense, better stun condition monitor, etc).

Yes, the best strategy is to have wide spell arsenal and use of many spell schools depending on the situation. But I still selected combat spell specialization and dragonslayer.

[Tecumseh]

So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?

The premise of the thread isn't whether single target indirect spells are worthwhile, but rather that if you had to pick one which would it be. At the risk of re-railing this discussion, I'm going to vote for Lightning Bolt. The -1 debuff and hit to Initiative are both great, but what I really like about it is its suitability against vehicles and drones. Since they can't take Stun damage, they are immune to Clout. Powerbolt is certainly more subtle than Lightning Bolt, which is a valid consideration if you're trying not draw attention to yourself by going all Sith Lord on some goon, but I would still take the flashy spell with the nice secondary effects.

[Facemage]

The premise of the thread isn't whether single target indirect spells are worthwhile, but rather that if you had to pick one which would it be. At the risk of re-railing this discussion, I'm going to vote for Lightning Bolt. The -1 debuff and hit to Initiative are both great, but what I really like about it is its suitability against vehicles and drones. Since they can't take Stun damage, they are immune to Clout. Powerbolt is certainly more subtle than Lightning Bolt, which is a valid consideration if you're trying not draw attention to yourself by going all Sith Lord on some goon, but I would still take the flashy spell with the nice secondary effects.

I agree with you. I solved this problem by buying also a weapon skill (automatics) with specialization. My weapon pool is 13 and I shoot burst fire (-2 to dodge pool). I think that it is also a powerful option against drones. A clout/stun bolt is useful, because if I need to stun (killing is not an option), I cannot use lightning bolt. But this depends on your table, in our table killing is not often an option.

[Whiskeyjack]

I keep wondering whether a well--placed Firewater or Napalm would outright brick a car or drone but that seems to be somewhat ambiguous as to what constitutes an "exposed or unsealed electronic." I mean, sure, cars are designed to not stall when rained on, but force enough magic water through the front grill or up under the engine and it'll die. Likewise, I imagine most drones are designed to operate in inclement weather, but when you just sear open a plate then the water would fry their insides.

[Jack_Spade]

@Whiskeyjack
The napalm spell is not very well thought out. But as a GM I'd say: Yes absolutely, frying is what this spell was meant to do.