[JoeNapalm]

So, while messing around with my sub-optimal hobo UA Master build, I came across the odd concept that Knucks/Hardliner gloves won't work with basically any other damage-enhancing Power or Aug.

Now, is that canon? Cause I can't find anywhere that says it. Or even implies that it should be that way.

I've seen some arguments that "Knucks are MELEE weapons because they're on the Melee Weapons table!" but that's easily countered by the fact that they use the Unarmed skill, so they're clearly an Unarmed weapon. Or at least equally arguable.

Has there ever been any clarification on this? Or am I missing something in Core? Cause I see nothing. (Let me be clear, I know there's long debates on these very forums, I'm just wondering if it actually says it in any rules?)

-Jn-

[Herr Brackhaus]

Knucks are weapons and can be made into weapon foci, and they use the unarmed skill for determining dice pool. They also have a fixed (STR+1)P damage (if memory serves), and thus cannot stack with other ware or damage enhancements like bone density.

The Bone Spike from Hard Targets is one of few weapons that specifically state that it's damage code is variable, and even in this one unique case it's only with one other piece of ware.

RAW is pretty straightforward here, though plenty of GMs house rule this one.

[Tecumseh]

Herr, which rule are you thinking of that would disallow knucks stacking with bone density or bone lacing? While I agree that brass knuckles are somwhat redundant if your knuckles are already made of metal, I don't know of any rule that says they don't stack. (Plus part of the logic of things like brass knuckles is that they concentrate force of a strike onto a smaller surface area. That still seems worthy of the increased damage value, even if you are already getting punched with a cyberfist.)

[Herr Brackhaus]

Technically there is no that explicitly disallows stacking. But, and this is important, Knucks have their own distinct damage code; instead of saying that they "Add +1 DV to Unarmed attacks" the DV is listed as (STR+1)P. On the other hand, Bone Density/Lacing have their own damage codes ranging from base STR (Rating 1 Bone Density) to (STR+3)P (Rating 4 Bone Density and Titanium Bone Lacing).

In effect, Knucks do not stack because once you have Rating 2 Bone Density or any kind of Bone Lacing you're already getting the STR+1 damage code, and if you've got anything better the damage code is similarly improved.

As I said, a lot of GMs house rule this but by RAW there is no rule that allows for stacking of Damage Codes from two "different" weapons, in this case Bone Density/Lacing and Knucks.

[Tecumseh]

This is a unique interpretation. Treating Bone Density R1 (knucks work!) differently from Bone Density R2 (knucks no longer work) doesn't seem internally consistent. I'm not sure that the absence of an explicit damage stacking rule is enough to say "RAW doesn't support this." RAW does not seem to say either way, neither supporting nor disallowing it.

Perhaps some others will chime in with their interpretations.

[JoeNapalm]

This is a unique interpretation. Treating Bone Density R1 (knucks work!) differently from Bone Density R2 (knucks no longer work) doesn't seem internally consistent. I'm not sure that the absence of an explicit damage stacking rule is enough to say "RAW doesn't support this." RAW does not seem to say either way, neither supporting nor disallowing it.

Perhaps some others will chime in with their interpretations.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked, but I am, that between SR4A and SR5 this wasn't made explicit in the rules.

Personally, it seems obvious to me that they would stack -- those on the other side feel pretty much the same. I can even grok their position, I just happen to look at it another way.

Not my intent to start yet another debate on the topic, I really was just amazed I couldn't find a clarification after all this time and a new edition.

-Jn-

[Sendaz]

The whole different damage from different lacings because you used different materials to lace the bone with never made much sense to start with, smacking of Marvel-esque physics, but I imagine it had to be put in to justify the greater cost of better materials.

I would allow knucks to still increase damage because at their most basic brass knuckles are designed to preserve and concentrate a punch's force by directing it toward a harder and smaller contact area, they result in increased tissue damage, and being more likely of breaking bones.
As a bonus most have an extended and rounded palm grip that also spreads across the attacker's palm the counter-force that would otherwise be absorbed primarily by the attacker's fingers, reducing the likelihood of damage to the attacker's fingers.

So even if you have bone lacing your punch should still benefit from using knucks because it would further focus the force because of its smaller surface area, which is typically one half to one third the area compared to the whole fist surface area.

[Herr Brackhaus]

This is a unique interpretation. Treating Bone Density R1 (knucks work!) differently from Bone Density R2 (knucks no longer work) doesn't seem internally consistent. I'm not sure that the absence of an explicit damage stacking rule is enough to say "RAW doesn't support this." RAW does not seem to say either way, neither supporting nor disallowing it.

Perhaps some others will chime in with their interpretations.

That's actually not my interpretation at all, for what it's worth. None of them stack, you just use the best damage code available; a character with Rating 1 Bone Density still gets the +1 to damage resistance and still gets STR Physical damage when punching instead of Stun, but if he wears Knucks he can choose to inflict (STR+1)P instead of his normal unarmed damage of (STR)P.

A character with Titanium Bone Lacing still gets all the benefits of those and can still wear knucks, but since his unarmed damage code is already (STR+3)P wearing knucks won't do him any good because his bones are already more efficient than a simple pair of knucks.

At this point I'd like to stress the fact that this is my interpretation of RAW; nothing in the rules state that knucks should stack, unlike the Bone Spike from Hard Targets which explicitly does, and there is no precedent that I know of that supports this interpretation. The fact that knucks have a stated Damage Value means it's treated just like shock gloves or a monowhip combined with the lack of common rules for stacking damage codes leads me to believe that RAW precludes this possibility.

Again, though, not all GMs will agree with this interpretation, and I myself am in fact one of them; at my table knucks stack just fine with things like bone density or lacing, but I still think that's not what RAW says. Of course. I disregard RAW on a daily basis, so...