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Ally spirits at chargen

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Snipethetiny42

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« on: <06-22-16/2127:46> »
So im new as a gm and one of my players asked if they could karma dump most of their karma into a ally spirt (spirit F40 ish), pick a possesion tradition and gain tons of attribute points when said uber spirit is in their character. This seems wrong, am i missing something
« Last Edit: <06-22-16/2133:22> by Snipethetiny42 »

FancyDerek

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« Reply #1 on: <06-22-16/2231:17> »
Considering that summoning a F40 spirit on average nets 13 successes for the spirit, which translate to Drain 26, and the Force being higher than the characters MR makes it physical..

Of course the spirit probably doesn't want to be shackled to such a lowly mage and will use edge to resist. That's about 9 more successes with post edging the result driving up the Drain o 42 physical.

Sure, let him summon it... everyone is going to wonder what the ashes are doing inside his lodge and where he went to...but hey.....


Of course there's the little rule in character creation section that says you, the GM, have final approval or lack there of. So a polite no would do. Me, I'd hit him with the hard cover version of the CRB.

Medicineman

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« Reply #2 on: <06-23-16/0236:45> »
sure, the Player could spent all his 50 Karma on an Ally Spirit but this would give him a Rating 3 or 4 Spirit
Because You, the GM have a final say/approval on the Ally Spirit and I would insist on a fully funcional Spirit with Powers, Skills etc, not just  a Spirit with a high Force and nothing else !
(and I would insist on a Spirit with a Force BELOW or at maximum the SAME Force as the MAG of the Char !!)
 PLUS
As Soon as the Spirit posesses a Body , YOU as GM ,take over !
 the PC turns into an NPC and you have final control what the Char does from that point on.
And if the Player wants to be in control he needs an Initiation (again approved by You) and this costs at least 13 Karma
which he can't "pump" into his Ally Spirit.
And you can insist on the PC making the Initiation ingame  finding a Mentor Mage, a location and the needed Time for the Initiation, not merely paying in Karma ! 
PLUS
 if he misuses the Spirit multiple times, he'll sure want to break free (and it is also your " job" as GM to keep track and provide Ingame Situations for the spirit to break free and the Char to prevent it)
and as soon as the Spirit breaks free the Char has lost all the invested Karma and may get an Enemy for Free ;)
so for Me it looks like a lot of Ingame Roleplay possibilities , but You as a GM have to keep a firm reign on both the creation and the use of said Ally Spirit !
You don't need to be a ...Naysayer , but don't lose control of your being the GM (like in Game MASTER  ;) )

with a firm Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <06-23-16/0246:34> by Medicineman »
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #3 on: <06-23-16/0523:01> »
Assuming you are talking about a normal campaign using Standard Priority character generation methods, there are a few caveats to being allowed to start with an Ally. First, is the fact that it is commonly disputed whether Initiation is allowable during character creation. On the one hand, it isn't on the chart during the character creation chapter, but on the other hand it is never stated that the chart there is everything you are allowed to do. So, that right there, means it is GM permission just to initiate at chargen. This costs 13 karma

Second, creating an ally spirit is normally a prolonged process requiring several things to be able to accomplish. You must have the spirits formula, which either requires an astral quest (which non-initiates cannot do), or decent training in Arcana to be able to write one yourself (or extreme trust in someone else to do it). It also requires you to successfully summon and bind the spirit normally (see FancyDerek's post about what happens if you try to create to large of an Ally, or try to summon/bind too large a spirit in general). This whole process is also not usually considered to be "handwave-able" it is difficult and a character should work for it. So it is also pretty high up on the list of things you should be wary as a GM just "allowing" him to do. An Ally costs a minimum of 8*Force in karma to create.

Lastly is those karma costs. Under normal creation rules, utilizing the Priority method, the absolute maximum karma a character can have is 50 (25 to start + 25 from negative qualities). The maximum Force you could possibly create at chargen, assuming a GM allows you to do so would a Force 4, which would cost 32 karma base plus the 13 for the initiation. This would leave you with 5 karma to round out the character, maybe get one of the smaller positive qualities. Not much, considering you had to take the full allotment of negatives for this.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily wave it away out of hand, but I would only allow such a thing if the character being made had some great story behind it about why an only moderately experienced Shadowrunner Magician would have that circumstance right out of the box. From the sound of things, based on the way you asked the question, I don't think your player has something amazing in mind. It seems like they are just trying to game the system and get a leg up on things by taking advantage of those spirit mechanics. Immediate territory for GM veto.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <06-23-16/0922:53> »
OK...


I want to give you some perspective here as well. I am a long term player that has the same character running since 1e and have amassed 4387 karma. When I went to transfer this character to 5e my (VERY GENEROUS) GM gave me some rules:
1: Sumto12 (this makes an exceptionally strong character right to start)
2: then apply my 4387 karma and buy up my existing skills and stats from my old character before investing in anything introduced in 5e. (meaning if I had skills @6 in 4e, before I could raise any skill to 7, all my existing 4e skills had to be brought up to 6 first)

After all that, I could only get my Ally Spirit to Force 18.


So, a Force 40 ally spirit done in such a way that does NOT kill the summoner is well beyond even that level of Karma......


In other words, either he is trying to pull a fast one on you and end up with an insanely strong, almost unstoppable character VS the rest of the group. Or he has no real understanding of how the magic system in SR works. I would STRONGLY suggest you read, then re-read magic sections in both the SG and CRB again. Magic in SR is powerful, deadly, and very confusing for the first time player. (and even for Pros!)

If you have any of the questions, ask away! There is a lot of very knowledgible people here who can help you out and help you have an enjoyable SR experience. 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

The Bald Man

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« Reply #5 on: <07-02-16/0820:00> »
...if they could karma dump most of their karma into a ally spirt (spirit F40 ish), pick a possesion tradition and gain tons of attribute points when said uber spirit is in their character.

In addition to the problems mentioned above.  The augmented limit is still +4.  So...the player will get +4 to each physical attribute. 

To get the most out of a Force 40 spirit you are WAY better off having it take action independant of you - which you can't really do as a possession tradition. 

Snipethetiny42

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« Reply #6 on: <07-03-16/2035:13> »
ok well thank you every one for the responses, i just wasn't sure how to respond to that request. thank you for the great advice as well