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Tir Tairngire Population

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aono

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« Reply #15 on: <08-07-16/1847:33> »
I'm not sure (I'm kinda new here), but I believe Rusty is Rusty Childers, author and proofreader for Sixth World Almanac.
Also I'm not sure how he did his research (at least SWA doesn't include it, nor it should), which questions did he asked college proffesors, and which answers did he got, so I can't really attack his research, I've never seen it. But he named OLD TIR as a land with "liberal immigration policies", so I believe he just ignored some facts didn't fit into some pattern.

Just because if we're speaking about Zimmeman here, who wrote "Land of Promise"... well. Maybe he have done good research, but he deliberatly removed from that 24-page supplement ANY information about some factors really mattered for demographics. First 10 or so pages are about geography and "how to get there", history ("what really happened there") and economics ("how it's impacted") are not skipped, but demonstratively skipped, then it's kind of some shadowtalk about 13 persons, and little shadowtalk about "hey, nothing really changed here". Then it's 4 pages about game info.
Why doing a lot of research about demography if you don't use it then?
« Last Edit: <08-08-16/0019:29> by aono »

Critias

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« Reply #16 on: <08-08-16/2328:43> »
Hi all,

First off, forgive Wak for being casual.  I go by "Russell" when I'm writing, but "Rusty" in day-to-day stuff.  I'm Russell/Rusty Zimmerman, not Rusty Childers.  I promise. 

Second, as has already been pointed out, Land of Promise -- the only one in the Tir Tairngire series of demographics that I worked on -- actually shows a population increase, not decrease. 

Third, I talked to some poli-sci and history folks about it, yeah.  But, to clarify, that's because my office was right down the hall from theirs, and we ate lunch together about once a week anyways.  ;)  I'm not sure how it turned into me doing extensive research and multiple interviews, but I want to nip that in the bud.  All I did was talk to some buddies on campus.  I wanted to get a few ideas about how quickly I could get populations back up, because I, frankly, agree with you that their "low point" was a bit too low.  I wanted to restore stability (in-game) and playability (out-of-game) to the setting, and getting the population to level off seemed like a handy way to do that;  to show a dramatic increase from that low point, to still not be a nation fully recovered (and back to original TT levels) but rather one still scarred by years of harsh internal policing, but to clearly be a nation on the rise.  So, yeah, I explained a few things to a few buddies from elsewhere within the department, had them crib me up some ideas about how quickly populations might recover from that sort of thing, averaged out their two answers, and went with what ended up being almost a nice, round, five million.

Fourth?  As for what was "demonstratively skipped," and what went into the book?  Frankly, you're the first person in all the time since release -- which is what, three or four years, now?  I'm a little brain-fried from the GenCon drive, sorry -- that's even mentioned the demographics, much less that's said "Man, I sure do wish someone had given me more back-tracking story info, and less about the now to work with, play with, and run a game with."

My job, and my goal, was to make the Tir playable again.  I wanted to let folks get thrown back into it, and to introduce them to a new generation of Tir Princes (except ones that aren't immortal and thousands of years old, this time, but, rather, ones that actual players might actually interact with and work for and maybe even challenge without it being an auto-death, which was the "some kind of shadowtalk about 13 persons").  Land of Promise didn't have the budget or the roominess of a 165 or 175 page sourcebook.  It was initially supposed to be the supplementary text to a series of adventures (basically just an expanded GM packet to the Elven Blood Missions arc), but I lobbied to extend it into a purchasable e-book format, and basically just added to it and added to it until The Powers That Be made it available as an update to the prior books.  An update, not a replacement. 

I'm sorry if you don't like the final result, but I can assure you, the last thing I did was "remove" anything. 

Lastly, I think that if you take too hard a look at any of the demographics info -- in basically any Shadowrun product, from any edition -- you'll find you're running into some problems.  We used to call this sort of thing "FASAnomics" and laugh about how silly the Shadowrun and Battletech universes were, and the plain reality is that it's all still pretty silly.  At the end of the day, you write up numbers that make sense for the story you're trying to tell and the setting you're trying to describe, and that's that. 

aono

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« Reply #17 on: <08-09-16/1000:03> »
Thanks for that answer, and I believe I shoud clarify myself.

Thing is, I'm really kinda new here, and when I saw "Rusty" name, who made an extensive research I don't belive it's about you (or about Land of Promise). Land of Promise don't looks like as a product of an extensive research about demographics.
Not it must be! 6WA looks like demography almanac, so it's kinda understandable to expect a people who wrote it to do some extensive research; I have issues, but I hadn't such issues about Land of Promise. I am not trying to accuse you for Land of Promise isn't really demography paper, it's normal, it definitly wasn't an idea.
But I'm kinda gullible in such topics. If somebody tells me that author of some work worked around some topic (said demography) I believe him. But I saw Land of Promise! It's easy to notice that economics and politics (with exclusion for princes persons) are deliberatly skipped, and it's pointed they are skipped. Then I say it's not seems like a result of very thorough demographical work and it's good to know it's really isn't a result of very thorough demographical work.
 
Quote
"> Skipping around a lot, aren’t we?
> Slamm-0!
> What, like you’re really interested in history and economics all of a sudden?
> /dev/grrl"

It's not mean that researches wasn't done, it's just means there are not any of them in this book. Personally I believe it's not good decision, not because demographics are important. They, well, are, but you need a skill to throw such data into game; I'm sociologist (by education), player who is trying to create Tir character is IR college professor, it's kinda of professional for me and him (yeah, we ARE really intrested in history and economics). But it could be good - for gameplay, not to please mine or my player curiousity - not to drop history section, and put an explanation WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED in Tir Revolution, I mean, this stuff stayed behind the scene, and it's not very good. Same for, I don't know, economics - it's good to have a couple of words about how it's work now, after Revolution, did it changed or not. But it's personal tastes, not more. You can't put anything into 24-pages pamphlet, I know it, and I don't demand it. It can be good to have such info, for me, for players I played with, for some players who whined about "waaaa, how little we know about modern Tir" (I met such whining when I tried to find such info in Net), but it's personal tastes, and if there was a 24-page pamphlet about economics and demography there should be players who will whine about lack of personal descriptions for princes.
My replic about "shadowtalk about 13 persons" wasn't degratory, and sorry if it looks that way. It was an effort to show what IS in this book (shadowtalk about 13 persons) and what ISN'T (info about demography and economics), and it's raised up because someone - not me! - pointed that there was a deep research about demographics just for demographics. I believed, to be honest, it's not so deep (and thanks for saying this), and I believed it's not something you can find in this book.

But it's my point here. I can't find an answer in the books so I sum my problems and came to forum. I believe if I wanted to say "hey Rusty wrote bad bad book!!!", I could do it on book page in drivethrurpg.com or find your contacts and drop it on you directly. I saw something I believe is strange in info about Tir in a sources from 2nd ed book to modern supplements, I couldn't find an answer myself, so I came to forums with a question about Tir demography, not about quality of "Land of Promise" book. I really believed it's why forums existed at all.
As a part of answers (and yeah, it's forums for me, I know) I had comparissing to modern Syria (ahm), to modern Detroit (ahm), and an offer not to argue your extensive research in a faith. Extensive research you didn't made.
And once again - I don't blame you! My English isn't so good I want it to be, so I want to reassure here - really, no any sarcasm here or "yeah, we know it's hard job only chosen can do, so who can expect". I really believe you could to do such research (you have history major after all, right?), if it was your point; I just believed it wasn't, until Wak said so.

So yeah. I believe it's... yeah, let's take "FASAnomics" term (I should notice though I LOVE '93 Tir book). It's normal, I can change it if I want. Believe me I will or I'll try to find an explanation that will not feels bad for me or my players - it's my DM job after all.
But it was exactly as I asked - is it "FASAnomics" or do you believe there is a sensible explanation.
« Last Edit: <08-09-16/1203:37> by aono »