[Senko]

I do see where you're coming from it just seems to go against some of the fluff (not that there's much of an argument given some of the 5th ed editing  ). Things like this from healthy glow . . .

"Healthy glow is a popular spell with the well-to-do, or those who want to appear well-to-do"

or Detox . . .

"Detox is the hangover cure of choice among those who can afford it."

Translate . . .

"This spell is often used for international, corporate and government conversations."

good old trid entertainment/phantasm . . .

"These spells are used for amusement as well as art. The entertainment industry uses illusionists as literal special effects wizards."'

Of course it goes on to say

"Only the wealthy can afford the unique experiences offered by such magicians first hand."

Still given that the average day job pays 50k after tax and the middle lifestyle is 50k to support that works well enough. So there is definately a market for mages with people buying their services and I think what we have here would work well enough for that. Bear in mind we aren't talking about a PC mage going I'll cast X for 150 nuyen (GM's have plenty of tools to stop that) but about companies charging people to hire the mages they have on staff for a job/period of time e.g. clearing earth in an area with lots of cables or to have said mages casting a specific spell/set of spells for them e.g. healthy glow as part of a spa treatment. Sure it sounds "Spells R Us"ish but there's just to big a market for magical services whether commercial, vanity, service providing or other and too many mages (even at 1% that's a lot) for me not to think that you would have way's to hire/retain the services of a magician or at least pay for a spell to be cast on you (detox, healthy glow, stabilize).

Now of course there are the legal aspects probably huge restrictions on which spells can be sold to private citizens or at least without a background check like buying a gun in American today. But unless we want to work out a whole system of "magical law" (I am willing to work on that) we'll just have to work with what we have. However there are enough mages and enough demand that there has to be options to hire a mage's services or pay for certain spells in hospitals, spas, museums and the like.

As for a high rate don't think of it in terms of hiring a mage for 8 hours by a company instead think of it like this. I'm a mage, you're not, you were out drinking and partying so you have a horrible hangover. Do you (a) pay me $150 to cast detox on you (more if I need reagents or recovery time) or (b) make a cup of coffee and bury yourself back in bed till you feel better? There are plenty of wealthy people who I'm sure would pay that much especially if they had a major meeting or work the next day but for most people there is no way you will pay that much for a hangover cure. On the other hand saving up and spending $450 to hire a mage for 3 hours to entertain your kids party is something that may be worth considering.

[markc]

Senko,
I guess what I was trying to say was a couple of things, first that there are a lot of things that go into retail/end user pricing vs salary of individuals or retail pricing vs overhead. Second the company will need/try to get as many possible spells out of there employee as they can per time period (ie maximize provide vs overhead) and some spell caster will be better at this then others. Third business is a tricky things and ensuring a steady flow of customers is key as well as planning for the times in which there are no customers.
  For example: I used to work in a paint store and we based out price's on the market as well as what we needed to make to stay in business during the slow months (winter) vs the very busy months (summer). I often joked we were 3-5 times as busy as we wanted during the summer and 1/4-1/2 as busy as we wanted to be during the winter.

Reaper,
Your contract info is very common in that management often takes a bite out of every person contract to spread the fees around,  so while it looks as if they are making less than you if it evolves more than one person they often are making more than you. But that is also very industry dependent and I have started to see manager salaries become more fixed vs the assets they manage. Where as in the past managers often just made more than they people they managed.  But maybe a better way to look at it would be office managers/business managers vs  task managers/people managers.

MDC 

[Overbyte]

I definitely think in the SR universe, since mages are rare and magic is tightly controlled (licensed) and the corps don't want "rogue" mages running around you will find most mages working for corps. They will have mages on staff for all sorts of things (like have been mentioned).
What is mentioned in the books but not really part of the actually play of the game is that mages come in a wide range of skill and capability. So the weak mages are "Wage Mages" that sit around throwing inventory spells all day (as has been written about). They probably  make the same as a mediocre decker that does inventory. Middle lifestyle.
Some powerful ones work at the top levels doing research and working on high level combat teams and get paid lots more. High - Luxury lifestyle.
And then the the non-conformists that become Shadowrunners and make a living that way.
There may be a (very) few mages that have a small business that use a bit of magic as part of their craft, like a Private Detective.

But I definitely don't see much in the way of random mages casting one-off spells for random people for a fee.
I think what Kiirnodel mention is very important. Casting a spell opens you up to all sorts of feedback and not the good kind. So being a lone mage casting spells willy nilly for a few nuyen is probably fraught with danger. However being a Wage Mage on staff at a posh hotel casting Health Glow all day for rich patrons as part of the spa treatment. Absolutely. After a few years of that though, you probably just wanna blow your brains out or become a shadowrunner.    Hey.. I see a background story forming.

[Senko]

Well I like the 150 yen an hour or spell rate and am going to stick with that. Hopefully for those who prefer a different style of game this thread will help them work out their own ideas.

[markc]

Well I like the 150 yen an hour or spell rate and am going to stick with that. Hopefully for those who prefer a different style of game this thread will help them work out their own ideas.

IMHO, you should play the game like you want to play it (but it is always nice to have some outside feedback that back you up also).
I do applaud you on your effort to nail down to cost in some way or at least a base cost that would then be modified by other factors such as spell Force, number of successes, etc and I look forward to reading any more ideas you present.

I am also just happy that I can get to see this topic again as the last 4 times I tried yesterday I kept getting a server unavailable/cannot be reached error message for this topic.

MDC

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, let me see.

Magic rating is important; so is the caster's skill in spellcasting.  A low-power/high-skill experienced mage can get away with charging the same (or more!) as a powerful but relatively unskilled newbie.  So let's call that [Magic + Spellcasting] / 3.

Too, the mage is going to charge a higher amount for a riskier spell, as reflected in a) the spell's Drain code, and b) the actual rating at which the spell is cast.  If that rating is higher than the mage's Magic attribute, the mage would probably charge an increase.  Hmmm.

Also, if the mage has to sustain the spell, he'd charge another increase.

The Essence of the target has an impact as well; fewer implants, easier cast.  Hmm.

[ Magic + Spellcasting ] * [Drain DV] * [1 + 0.25 for every point spell Force is above Magic ] * 100.  If the spell is an Essence-based spell, * [ 4 - (half Essence, rounded down to 1 decimal point) ].  For every quarter-hour the spell has to be sustained, [1 + (Hrs / 4).]

Example time?  Example time.

Harmon the Wage Mage has a Magic of 6, a Spellcasting of 6, and is casting Healthy Glow (F-2) at Force 6.  Healthy Glow is a straight Physical spell, so his target's Essence doesn't matter, and it's a one-time cast, so sustaining doesn't matter.  He'll charge

( 6 + 6) * (6 - 2) * 1 * 100 = (12) * (4) * 100 = (48 ) * 100 = 4800¥.

But what if he's casting Increase Reflexes (F-0) at the same force on a decker with an Essence of 3.6?  And the decker wants it kept up for 2 hours?

( 6 + 6) * (6 - 0) * 1 * 100 * (4 - (3.6/2) ) * (1 + 2) = (12) * (6) * 100 * (4 - 1.8 ) * 3 = (48) * 300 * (2.2) = 47,520¥.

Better be getting a lot of cash out of that run.

Or better, just a sim-star (E 4.8 ) who is going to do a shoot for 12 hours in a disease- and chem-ridden area for a charity, but definitely wants a boost to their disease and toxin resistance (Prophylaxis, DV F-4):

( 6 + 6) * (6 - 4) * 1 * 100 * (4 - (4.8/2) ) * (1 + 12) = (12) * (2) * 100 * (4 - 2.4) * 13 = (24) * 1300 * (1.6) = 11,520¥.

For a heavy (3-4 hit) reinforcement to their resistances ... they'd pay it.  Or rather, their studio would pay it.  And for the mage, it's one casting, plus mentally hold on to it.  Might even be able to negotiate an increase because it's over 12 hours - 'mystic overtime'.

If the studio wanted him to overcast it, though - call it F8:

( 6 + 6) * (8 - 4) * (1 + ((8-6)/2)) * 100 * (4 - (4.8/2) ) * (1 + 12) = (12) * (4) * (1 + (2/2)) * 100 * (4 - 2.4) * 13 =
(24) * (1.5) * 1300 * (1.6) = 34,560¥.

[Sendaz]

Great, now I have images of Corp HRT squads carrying a stable of mages in the carrier who do nothing but load up the mojo on the team before they disembark and stay in the heavily armored vehicle just sustaining spells.  Maximum flexibility/Minimum risk- they can adapt the cast load to the details incoming while they are enroute and if the corp is smart they already have their internal wards set up so the teams are cleared for passage through (maybe a pin or similar) so they don't have to worry about the wards scrubbing anything off and the caster doesn't have to worry about doing anything but sustaining while relaxing on the padded couch sipping mai-tais while the main team deals with the runner threat.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Make it a vision of hell for your PCs. 

One revision - I'd call the 'spell-sustaining increase' to be for 'over 1 hour', meaning you get the first hour as part of the spell, but get charged for it over that.  And my math is wrong in there somewhere, because both of the 'Simstar' sustained spellcastings are much higher than I first wrote.

[ Magic + Spellcasting ] * [Drain DV] * [1 + 0.25 for every point spell Force is above Magic ] * 100.  If the spell is an Essence-based spell, * [ 4 - (half Essence, rounded down to 1 decimal point) ].  For every quarter-hour the spell has to be sustained past the first hour, [1 + (Hrs / 4)] (first hour is part of the casting).

Standard Casting: (6 + 6) * (6 - 4) * 1 * 100 * [4 - (4.8/2)] * (12) = 12 * 2 * 100 * [4 - 2.4] * 12 = 2400 * 1.6 * 12 = 46,080¥.
Overcasting: (6 + 6) * (8 - 4) * [1 + ((8 - 6) / 4)] * 100 * [4 - (4.8/2)] * (12) = 12 * 4 * [1 + (2/4)] * 100 * [4 - 2.4] * 12 = 4800 * 1.5 * 1.6 * 12 = 138,240¥.

(If the first hour's 'free', the combat decker's cost drops to 31,680¥.)  Note that an actual wage-mage probably wouldn't see all of this money, but the sim-star would be charged it; much of it would get taken by the corp, one way or the other, and after all, wage-mage gets paid the same amount no matter what he does.  But it might give you an idea of how much a mage COULD make if he really wanted to put the screws to his clients.

Also, if the Force of the spell lowers the DV to less than 1, make that multiplier (2 ^ DV).  A Force one greater than or equal to the reduction (4 or 5, above) would get you a '1'; one below would make it 1/2 (0.5), 2 below makes it 1/4, 3 below makes it 1/8, etc.  The above cast at F1 and sustained for 12 hours would still be a 2880¥ charge.

You might also increase the cost for a sustained spell to x1.25 for that first hour, adding 0.25 to the multiplier for each quarter-hour after that.  That'd make the prices:

Decker w/ Increased Reflexes: 35,640¥
Simstarlet w/ Prophylaxis: 47,040¥
Simstarlet w/ Overcast: 141,120¥

[Senko]

Interesting formula there rather more . . . expensive than my 150 nuyen an hour but offers a lot more flexability for one off spells rather than mages on a contract. One part of me likes your formula more but honestly the prices seem a bit high for any kind of "common" casting.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

100¥/hr is a good automobile mechanic.  300¥/hr is an average lawyer without specialized knowledge.  While a physician may earn 80¥/hr, he isn't charging that; he's charging 200¥ per office visit (25¥ of which the patient pays, the rest of which the insurance pays), and seeing four or more patients an hour; he's thus charging at least 800¥/hr, maybe more.

We've gone through it before, but just as a repeat :

Mages are rare - 0.1%, 1:1000, of the population have the Talent.  Of that number, 10% (1 in 10) are full mages; say 60% are spellcasters or can prepare 'spelled' alchemical preparations, so 0.06% of the population.  Of those, highly-skilled, strong mages like the fellow above are equally rare - another 1 in 10 at best.  So 0.006% of Seattle's population - 6 in 100,000, or 60 per million, or 180 in the 3 million of Seattle.  Of those, most (90+%) are in the corporations, because that's where the money is.  They may see only a quarter - or less - of the above money, but it doesn't lessen how much you get charged for their services.

Those who aren't in the corporation (which will still be at least 75%, and perhaps 90+%, of the magically active) - and 'corporation' in this case can mean 'organized crime' - are more likely to be shadowrunners, weaker spellcasters, the newbies, the can't-cut-it-any-mores, that sort of thing.  Going by the same computations, a maxed-out Heal spell (F-4) by a street healer, both Magic and Spellcasting at 4, on our E 3.6 decker friend ('cause he got himself shot up) runs 1760¥; Force 2 actually cuts that down to 880¥.

So sure, spellcasting is more expensive than buying a grenade; it SHOULD be, because it's a hell of a lot more rare than grenades are.  'Common' spellcasting isn't.

[Sendaz]

Can we get a price check on one of these?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Buy one, get two free.  In fact, we'll pay you a copper a barrel to take them away ...

[RowanTheFox]

Oh, Oglaf. (If you have even the tiniest scrap of innocence left, do not read that webcomic!)

[Senko]

The one posted remains me of a novel called "the case of the toxic spelldump" about a world where magic is common (to the point they use it instead of technology e.g. flying carpets with seatbelts are the common mode of transport) and an agent for the environmental perfection (not a spelling error its perfection not protection) is assigned to investigate potential problems resulting from apparent leakage from a toxic spell dump. Place where all the dangerous magical by products are stored.

[Senko]

@The Wyrm Oroubourous

Been playing around with your formula and I'd like to porpoise a few changes.

1) Change magic + spellcasting. I'm honestly not sure what for but I can see the best/most powerful mages pricing themselves out of the market if they had to multiply by those each time e.g. a "common mage" with 3 magic and 3 spellcasting is multiplying by 6 (half the average PC) while the most powerful mage alive is potentially an 18 not counting initiations (12 skill + 6 magic) and with those could be using a 20/30/40 multplier (cough immortal elves cough) Take the healthy glow spell the max mage is 18 * 4 * 1 * 100 = 7,200 vs a 'common' mage is 6 * 1 * 1 * 100 = 600 nuyen. Sure you'll get a lot more for the max mage spell but the max mage would see more business if they could vary that initial multiplier. Of course in your calculations you seem to have dropped the divide by 3 you originally had and that could make a difference in levelling out the price. I can see how you can work with divide by 3 to get a lower curve i.e. [Magic + Spellcasting] /3.

2) Drop drain DV. Sure the mage will charge more for a riskier spell but I think that's represented by your 1 +0.25 for each point above magic. If the drain DV is below their magic anyway they'll generally be able to handle it. So I'd put that as a sort of magical floor if the drain is less than magic there's no real risk to the mage and thus no extra cost if they're overcasting you pay more.

3) I'm not sure how I feel about the hours/4 part of the spell sustaining. As it stands you could potentially make the same profit casting the spell twice in the first hour for 2 different clients as you would casting and sustaining it for 5 hours. I'm personally more inclined to just add the cost again for each hour or part thereof e.g. 1 hour = 2000, 2 hours = 4000, 3 hours = 6000 and so on. Otherwise you have one mage casting a spell for 2,000 yen 8 times in a work day (1 an hour) and making 16,000 yen vs a mage casting a spell once and sustaining it for 8 hours making 5,500. Whether its the mage making that profit or the company they work for I can't really see any business wanting a cost difference that big (11,500 yen a day). You still have a potential difference between the mage casting multiple spells vs one sustaining one but the difference isn't as big since the sustainer is now effectively charging for 1 spell an hour rather than 1 spell every 4 hours.

4) Purely personal taste this one I get where your coming from with the no common spellcasters but consdering the fluff (detox is the preferred hangover cure, healthy glow is a common appearance improver) I feel the * 100 base cost should be lower so your not paying nearly enough to feed and house someone in a middle lifestyle for 1 spell. Take your Harmon the wage mage charging 4,800 for healthy glow that is a HUGE amount of money for one spell its only 200 yen less than month's middle lifestyle expenses. Consdiering he could probably cast 8 a day and would almost certainly cast several over a month he'd easily make the money for a high lifestyle much less a medium one. Laying aside expenses/corporate management you can't be paying a wage mage 60-120 thousand a year (middle/high lifestyle) while making that much in a month without them trying to leave. I'd be more inclined to put it at 10 to 20 times as a base multiplier. That would mean for a single casting of healthy glow Harmon's employers would charge 12 * (Drain removed for this one) * 10 = 120¥ or 12 * 20 = 240 yen. Now yes for a "rare magic" game 120 to 240 yen is probably very low but this is just a one off casting of a simple spell and the profit by the corporation after Harmon's wages of 120 is while appreciable not enough to leave Harmon doing everything he can to break his contract. Meanwhile the more dangerous decker casitng is 12 (Magic + Spellcasting) * 10 (Base cost) * (4 - 1.8 ) (Essence) * 2 = 528 almost 10% of a medium lifestyles monthly expenses for 2 hours work. Of course the advantage here is you can vary that amount to taste for a game where magic is rarer and harder to get hold of you use a higher base multiplier for games where its more common you use a lower one.

5) I'd also propose a danger value be included in there as well. Perhaps a danger cost of 1.5 and a hazard cost of 3. So casting healthy glow in a nice safe encvironment no change casting prophylaxis on the simstar and having to venture out into a filthy, disease ridden location your spell cost is increased by 1.5 because of the danger to the mage. Casting on the combat decker where there's a chance the mage could be shot its a hazard multiplier of 3. To use healthy glow as an example normal casting cost is (lets use your base multiplier of 100 here) 6 (3 magic + 3 spellcasting) * 1 (normal conditions) 100 = 600 yen (I do feel this is too much for one spell given the normal costs still), casting in a dangerous environment is  6 * 1.5 (dangerous conditions) * 100 = 900 yen, casting in hazardrous environments is 6 * 3 * 100 = 1,800 yen.

So my revised formula is looking more like . . .

[(Magic + Spellcasting Base 6)/3] * [1 + 0.25 for every point spell Force is above Magic ] * If the spell is an Essence-based spell, * [ 4 - (half Essence, rounded down to 1 decimal point) 1 if non essence based] * [Condition Modifier] * 15. For every hour or part thereof the spell is sustained you add the spell cost to the price.

Hmmm If I lower that initial value and drop the force multpiler the 100 spell cost could work, lets see your examples on my fomula. . .

Harmon the Wage Mage has a Magic of 6, a Spellcasting of 6, and is casting Healthy Glow (F-2) at Force 6.  Healthy Glow is a straight Physical spell, so his target's Essence doesn't matter, and it's a one-time cast, so sustaining doesn't matter.  He'll charge

((6 + 6)/3) * 1 * 1 * 1 * 100 = 400¥.

Next he's casting Increase Reflexes (F-0) at the same force on a decker with an Essence of 3.6?  And the decker wants it kept up for 2 hours?

(( 6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(3.6/2)) * 1 * 100 * 2= 1,760¥.

Of course if he's doing this in a dangerous environment (such as a live power room) that condition modifier changes to 1.5 . . .

(( 6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(3.6/2)) * 1.5 * 100 * 2 = 2,460¥

And if he's doing it in a hazardrous (such as a combat zone) situation it changes to 3.

(( 6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(3.6/2)) * 3 * 100 * 2 = 5,280¥

Next the sim-star (E 4.8 ) who is going to do a shoot for 12 hours in a disease- and chem-ridden area for a charity, but definitely wants a boost to their disease and toxin resistance (Prophylaxis).

((6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(4.8/2) * 1.5 * 100 * 12 = 11,520¥.

Weirdly the same value you had, of course as this is sustained for 12 hours its effectively 1,000 yen an hour so not unreasonable to me given the  mage is sustaining the spell in a disease and toxin ridden environement. If they were shot at they'd charge the hazard multiplier . . .

((6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(4.8/2) * 3 * 100 * 12 = 23,040¥.

While if they were doing it in a safe place it'd only use the normal 1 times multipiler of . . .

((6 + 6)/3) * 1 * (4-(4.8/2) * 1 * 100 * 12 = 7,680¥.

If the studio wanted him to overcast it, though - call it F8:

((6+6)/3) * (1+((8-6)/2)) * (4-(4.8/2)) * 1.5 * 100 * 12 = 23,040¥.

Giving an "hourly cost" of 1,920 nuyen.

This to me seems like a reasonable comromise the simple spells only cost a few hundred nuyen (3 magic + 3 spellcasting casting that first spell would only cost 200 nuyen not that much more than my original 150 hourly rate) while the more long term or dangerous ones cost potentially tens of thousand of nuyen a day and you can vary it by changing the base multiplier from 100 up or down to suit your taste.