[Hobbes]

Mirage and 7 dice means almost 3/4 chance, and that's without using Edge. And you have approx 3/7 without Edge with the Scorpion, the Jackrabbit and the Shin-hyung. I'd consider that a chance at doing something.

Edit: As for a simple stunt at high speed: 7 dice, Mirage, 100 m/ct = 120 km/h = -3, stunt not at level of a hairpin turn but still tricky so say -1 threshold, 2-1 = 1 with 4 dice, 80% chance.

I guess, if you're driving the best handling vehicle in the game at less than half it's max speed and doing an easier than average stunt you'll be successful most of the time. 

But any other vehicle at highway speeds you're going to need a crash test doing a sharp turn or sudden stop most of the time.  Even at cruising through town speeds you'll crash frequently.  And trucks/Vans, fergitaboutit. 

[Jimmy_Pvish]

Imagine chase scene between Go-Ganger and Lone Star Patrolman !!

P.204, 206
Go-Ganger (Reaction 2, Piloting 2)
Lone Star Patrolman (Reaction 3, Piloting 2)

Go-Ganger maybe can get away with it if they're riding on Suzuki Mirage and never go above school area's speed limit.
 - 4 dice with threshold 2, they're ONLY crash 60% of the time as long as they never go above 36 kmph.

But Patrolman is dead on arrival, no way they're patrolling in 115k supercar like Westwind (only car with handling 2).
From 5e stolen soul, Lone Star use Chrysler-Nissan Journey as a patrol car,
which is similar to Ford Americar in price tag and performance, let's said it's the same then.
 - 5 dice with threshold 4 ?, yup 95% crash even when driving at below school area's speed limit.

Chasing Scene in shadowrun is super cute.
Both sides never go above 40 kmph and still crash left and right, kinda like toddler's playing tag in a tricycle.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Just throwing a bit of cold water on the simmering fire here...

Remember that thresholds don't factor in to opposed tests.  If you're doing some chase or race, where it's your hits against the other drivers', handling doesn't matter.  Since thresholds don't matter.

[Michael Chandra]

Mirage and 7 dice means almost 3/4 chance, and that's without using Edge. And you have approx 3/7 without Edge with the Scorpion, the Jackrabbit and the Shin-hyung. I'd consider that a chance at doing something. Edit: As for a simple stunt at high speed: 7 dice, Mirage, 100 m/ct = 120 km/h = -3, stunt not at level of a hairpin turn but still tricky so say -1 threshold, 2-1 = 1 with 4 dice, 80% chance.

I guess, if you're driving the best handling vehicle in the game at less than half it's max speed and doing an easier than average stunt you'll be successful most of the time. But any other vehicle at highway speeds you're going to need a crash test doing a sharp turn or sudden stop most of the time. Even at cruising through town speeds you'll crash frequently. And trucks/Vans, fergitaboutit.

I do believe that the high Handling and low Speed Intervals of some vehicles punish the drivers too much, even if the Speed Intervals are also meant to reduce firing dicepools. So I'll write a houserule about that later. But the examples used to complain about this rule, I can't agree with.

So, let's look at the situation as y'all are basically describing it:

- You're a mediocre driver
- You insist on driving yourself, rather than letting GridGuide take the wheel
- You decided on a hard-to-handle vehicle, despite cheap easier options being available
- You drive fast enough that your mediocre dicepool is reduced to near-zero, which in the case of normal cars tends to mean you're already above the speed limit of Highways (a -5 with SI 20 means driving 101~120 m/CT = >120 km/h)
- You're in a tricky enough situation that your GM feels a Pilot test is warranted, even if it's incomparable to the baseline of 'a hairpin turn at high speed', meaning that combined with your speed even the heavily reduced threshold still gives you trouble

At this point, I feel the only ones to blame are:
- You, for making all the choices that put you into that situation to begin with
- Your GM, for facepalming too hard to talk some sense into you

As for trucks/vans not being able to handle sudden stops well at high speeds: Sounds perfectly logical and reasonable.

Again, I do think the Speed Intervals go too low for the high-Handling vehicles. But I don't see much of a problem with the scenario as described above.

Anyway, to prevent going round and round in circles, I'm leaving it at that. Have fun, I'm out.

[Hobbes]

"Let Grid Guide do it!" is fine for commuting.  If there is some kind of action scene in a vehicle it's safe to assume the players will be making rolls.  Also Grid Guide is just the Autopilot, it's got about 6 dice for most tests, less the speed modifier.  With these rules Grid Guide turns into bumper cars whenever anything unexpected happens.

From Memory there are 2 vehicles with handling 2?  The Mirage and the Westwind.  These are not the cheap options, they're the expensive ones.  Likely PCs will be driving something with a handling 3 or 4, with a moderate speed interval. 

For an average stunt like a sharp turn, or a sudden stop, a PC will need 3 or 4 hits on a dice pool of 5ish if they're driving at normal in town speeds. 

I personally don't drive sports cars or racing bikes, Minivans and Sedans are more my speed.  I've made plenty of sudden stops over the years and a few sharp turns at speed.  I'm not some pro-race car driver. 

The driving rules fall apart on the low end.  Happens a lot in Shadowrun, but these rules come with Crash Tests.  While less fatal then 5e, they're still kinda rough. 

Shadowrunners shouldn't hop in a vehicle and drive away fast, they should run on foot and watch the security forces do some kind of Keystone cop revival and cause a multi-car pile up. 

[Typhus]

So, I have a couple issues to mention regarding this debate on the vehicle RAW, and maybe it will extinguish any embers of here.  I'm sorry it's long, but maybe it will help when these rules get their turn in the Errata process.

Fact is, per the RAW, there's no right or wrong way to rule this.  No one can "win" this discussion, and all interpretations are equally valid and invalid at the same time.  Here's why:

Looking at the RAW, there is no guidance whatsoever on when or by how much to adjust the Handling Threshold to account for the maneuver the pilot declares.  Nor is "something tricky" defined in any terms that would lead one to believe that "hairpin turn at high speed" is intended to use the baseline number for such a maneuver because the GM can arbitrarily and with no guidance provided in the RAW change this threshold at a whim "based on the difficulty".  For example, if I as the GM think a hairpin turn is harder than vehicular stealth, then I am probably cranking that Threshold up, not down.

There's also no guidance on when or by how much to adjust Thresholds up or down.  So, there's no written basis for arguing that the GM should adjust downward for anything less than a hairpin turn at high speeds, nor upwards either.  That interpretation is a personal one not supported (nor denied) by the text.  The text is simply not clear enough for those assumptions to be made in either direction.  It’s a complete guess by the GM, but one with devastating consequences if their best guess results in the inability to avoid a crash.

There was also a notion posed here that there is no Threshold involved when using Opposed tests, which is not a complete statement.  Per the RAW, the GM (again at their whim via the use of the word "can") is also free to call for a secondary test after the Opposed Test. 

Side note: This second test is called a Simple test in the text, not a Handling test, even though it uses the same dice as a Handling test, so it's unclear to me if they should be considered as different in some way--ie, does failing it not result in a crash?  The Crash rules state you crash when you fail a Handling test, which this is not labeled as.  I assume this is a typo and should be a Handling test.

There are also no examples given of what circumstances would call for using two driver's skills against each other for the Opposed tests.  For example, if I am weaving in and out of traffic to evade pursuit, is that a Handling test or an Opposed test?  Technically, I'm just trying to avoid hitting other vehicles at high speed, like an obstacle course.  So is my pursuer.  What's the intent here?  No way to know this either.  It's just a different way to roll the dice if it makes more sense to the GM.

The sum total assessment here amounts to giving the GM the advice "do whatever you want, just use this one dice roll, and make sure to penalize the dice pool for the speed".

Was the intent to be this vague, and leave the table hanging in the GMs whims?  As written, we can't even have a meaningful discussion about it, because no one can be right or wrong.  There’s no guidance, and thus no real “system” to follow.

But maybe that's uncharitable of me.  I get that way sometimes. 

Let's assume I am.  What other tools are there?  Perhaps the Thresholds table on p.36 is supposed to be the guidance for the GM here, and I'm wrong that there's "no guidance".

Threshold Chart states:

(3) Normal starting point for Simple tests. Complicated enough to require skill. Shadowrunners are expected to be more competent than normal people, which is why game thresholds are based here. Shooting a window out of a nearby buiding.

(4) More dificult, impressive enough to accomplish. Shooting an enemy in the window of a nearby building.

So, even here, I am still left to interpret the wording.  However, with this standard as the only guidepost, is any GM ever going to look at this chart and adjudicate "tricky" maneuvers downwards from the baseline Threshold in the Rigging section?  Based on this chart, I would personally put "hairpin at high speeds" around a 5 from the chart guidance.  It's certainly not a 3 on this scale.  However, given that this is the case, it also follows that driving has a different scale in the RAW than does the rest of the game.  A 3 is "normal" tasks in the table, and Ford Americar  Handling is a 3 to do "tricky" things.  Unless the Americar is really supposed to be a 3 because it makes “tricky” (4) into “normal” (3) instead, the scales don't seem align, even if we use these vague terms to guess around. 

Just to clarify, again, I'm not saying that the downward adjustment theory is wrong/bad/incorrect.  I'm still saying there is no "right", because the RAW doesn't establish what "right" is, except As Thine GM Dictateth (so long as the modifiers are used). 

I’m also saying that the only possible guidance that exists is suggestive that upwards is the correct direction, but I can only hope to draw a GM like Michael when playing, as his take is much more player-friendly. 

IMO, it would be clearer if Handling rating was expressed as a modifier to Threshold tests to control the vehicle.  The Threshold table shows what the thresholds should be for different types of tasks.  This would align the Rigging scale with the game scale. 

The idea being aimed at is the traditional one that different vehicles should affect Handling tests. That’s a solid goal, always has been.  Personally, the easy fix is to subtract 3 from the Handling listed and make this a modifier to the normal Threshold guidance.  That hairpin maneuver may be a 5, but in a truck it's a 7.  Then the system is unified to a core guideline, not making it's own separate one.  Then make vehicle rig implants reduce the Threshold by their rating, and then I feel like a kick butt rigger in the 6E system, even driving a brick on wheels. 

Regardless, as it stands, the debate is currently pointless, and we all should leave it behind until and unless it's addressed.  Further questions should be answered as "that's up to your GM". 

I can't expect the team to rewrite the Handling mechanic on my analysis though.  There may be other factors I am unaware of too.  So instead, to better approach this issue and enhance playability, if the Handling numbers/scale are to stand as written, then I would suggest that a maneuver threshold modifier chart would be in order for the Errata.  There are also no other dice pool modifiers suggested for things driving on gravel, slick surfaces etc, which presumably would be their own adjustments to dice pools?  A table for that would be helpful, unless the RAI are not to fuss with those things, and simply let Speed be the only factor the game cares about measuring.  If that's the case, it would be good to have stated explicitly as well, so GMs don't start stacking on the penalties past the system tolerance limits.

Thanks for reading.  I hope it helps somehow.

[Ghost Rigger]

I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I will say that in defense of these mechanics that Shadowrun is a setting where it makes sense that the average Joe and Jill absolutely suck at driving, on account of Gridguide doing all the driving for them. However, this isn't a good implementation of that because even experts struggle in this system. Part of the problem is that dicepools have generally gotten smaller, but most of it lies within the mechanics themselves.

Right off the bat, this system actively punishes the player for driving anything other than the most nimble vehicle available to them. Why should I drive anything other than a Suzuki Mirage if it means I'll need more hits on my test to perform any sort of stunt? Ah, but there are reasons: I might want to drive my fellow Shadowrunners around, haul gear and be protected from bullets and the elements. Too bad that driving any vehicle offering that would mean I have to hit a higher target number whenever I do any stunt, barring opposed checks for some reason, and there's no way of mitigating that until the rigger book comes out and tells us how much it'll cost to improve a vehicle's Handling. Compare this to 5e, where Handling is a ceiling on what you're capable of in a vehicle. Any given stunt has the same TN no matter if you're driving a Suzuki Mirage or an Ares Roadmaster, but if you're in the Roadmaster you can't do a stunt with a TN higher than 3 (unless you're a rigger, but I'll get to that later). As long as your vehicle is nimble enough to pull off a stunt, your ability to do a stunt depends entirely on how many dice you're rolling. The difference between editions is night and day: in 5e you want a more nimble vehicle because it will let you use your large dicepool to its full potential while in 6e you want a more nimble vehicle because it doesn't require a large dicepool to be used effectively.

The choice to have speed-based penalties is an odd one, as I thought the point of 6e was to streamline the game and remove modifiers. Perhaps this speed penalty, as well as how Handling is used, is more reflective of how vehicles worked in older editions (I've only skimmed through the older Rigger Blackbooks, but it seems to check out) but it flies in the face of the core mission of 6e. You can't really argue that it's more realistic either because not all stunts are inherently more difficult at higher speeds; merging into 90 km/h traffic isn't any more difficult than merging into 60 km/h traffic. Is it a mechanical issue? Yes, but mostly because dicepools were already shrunken. Then there is the issue of speed intervals; I haven't looked, but I suspect that the vehicles with high Handling will also have smaller speed intervals, meaning you're doubly punished for choosing to drive them.

Then there's the brutal nerfing of control rigs. In 5e, they granted extra dice, reduced TN and increased limits; this sweet trifecta of bonuses simultaneously lowered the bar and raised the ceiling for riggers, making them far better than other drivers of the same dice pool, as they needed less hits to achieve the same stunts and could keep more hits than they would otherwise be allowed to. It also meant that riggers had greater freedom of choice in their selection of vehicles and modifications, because their control rig bonuses made a vehicle's handling a lower priority. Control rig bonuses also applied to Sensor checks and Gunnery, so it also boosted a rigger's reconnaissance and combat abilities. To be on par with 5e control rigs, 6e control rigs would need to grant bonus dice, reduced TN and since limits are no longer a thing some other fitting bonus such as reduced speed penalties. What do 6e control rigs actually grant? Bonus dice and.......free edge generation. Someone stop the ride, I want to get off.

Disclaimer: I'm playing a Roadmaster-driving rigger right now, so I might be biased on account of just how hard my character would eat shit if I made him in 6e.

[KatoHearts]

I have no horse in this race, rigging is beyond me, but since Grid Guide came up here's a fact. GridGuide does not have 100% coverage. In Seattle specifically it has 100% coverage for only downtown.