[JoeNapalm]

Okay, say I want to make a Weapon Foci during the creation of a Mage.

It will cost me the Force Rating in BP to bind it - but is the associated Gear cost just the cost of the weapon (the way the CharGen rules seem to imply) or is it 10,000¥ x Force, as the table in the Gear section seems to imply (despite being pointedly NOT referenced in the CharGen rules, where all the other Gear lists are enumerated)?

And before someone insists that this is a silly question, because the costs on the table wouldn't be there if they weren't the costs - I can learn spells for 3BP, but a table on the same page as the Foci clearly state that those spells should cost nuyen...which they don't during character creation.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Glyph]

The costs in the gear section are for spell formulas or instruction costs - mages don't need either to get a spell at char-gen, any more than characters need to use the rules for instruction costs for the other skills they start out with.  It can be a bit confusing.  Note that if you plan on picking up some spells later, it can be a good idea to get the formulas for them at char-gen, so you are ready as soon as you have some karma.

For foci, I am afraid you do need to also pay the nuyen cost.  To quote the relevant section (under Foci, pg. 85):

"A starting awakened character can begin the game with one or more foci already bonded.  First, the character must purchase the focus with Gear nuyen."

[Charybdis]

I can see where the confusion comes from (the text is a bit ambiguous), but I concur with Glyph.

To make a character that starts with a Weapon Focus, you must follow two steps:
A) Buy the weapon focus with money (¥10,000 x Force)
B) Bond the weapon focus with Karma ( 3 karma x Force)

[JoeNapalm]

Cool, thanks!

Hmm.  6BP seems like a lot (cost and binding) for a Force 2 Foci. Power Foci are obviously more, even.

Seems more cost effective to maybe craft my own, in-game?

My Mage is a Fomori - those 45BP extra are making me frugal.

-Jn-

[FastJack]

I can see where the confusion comes from (the text is a bit ambiguous), but I concur with Glyph.

To make a character that starts with a Weapon Focus, you must follow two steps:
A) Buy the weapon focus with money (¥10,000 x Force)
B) Bond the weapon focus with Karma ( 3 karma x Force)

Actually, B isn't correct. At Character Creation, the BP to bond the Weapon Foci is only the Force cost. so a Force 2 Weapon Focus would cost you a total of 6 BP (20,000¥ = 4 BP + 2 BP to bond). That's a lot cheaper than purchasing it after Character Generation, since then you'd have to spend the 20,000¥ and spend 6 Karma to bond it.

This, of course, means that if you take the Restricted Gear quality (5 BP), you can then get a Force 4 Weapon Focus for only 17 BP total (5 BP [quality] + 8 BP [40,000¥ gear] + 4 BP [bond])

[Rockopolis]

Oh, I didn't notice that.  Sweet, I've got 4 more points for my Mentat.

[Charybdis]

B) Bond the weapon focus with Karma ( 3 karma x Force)

Actually, B isn't correct. At Character Creation, the BP to bond the Weapon Foci is only the Force cost. so a Force 2 Weapon Focus would cost you a total of 6 BP (20,000¥ = 4 BP + 2 BP to bond). That's a lot cheaper than purchasing it after Character Generation, since then you'd have to spend the 20,000¥ and spend 6 Karma to bond it.

This, of course, means that if you take the Restricted Gear quality (5 BP), you can then get a Force 4 Weapon Focus for only 17 BP total (5 BP [quality] + 8 BP [40,000¥ gear] + 4 BP [bond])

Wow...I didn't realise that at all! Then again, haven't bought a CharGen foci since SR3

I went digging to find the exact source though (I trust you, FastJack, but still needed to verify )

A starting Awakened character can begin the game with one or more foci already bonded. First, the character must purchase the focus with Gear nuyen. To bond a focus to the character, the player must then spend a number of BP equal to the focus’s Force

No more ambiguity in the mix....

[JoeNapalm]

So, having never played a Mage before, how important is it to start with Foci?

Currently, I have a Force 2 weapon focus (probably a bit excessive, but it's a style thing, so I'm willing to pay for it),  a Force 2 Power Focus, and a Force 3 Sustaining Focus (Health) - the intent is to maintain Increase Reflexes.

Now, I could tweak some stats down to get enough BP to get another Sustaining Focus for Armor...or I could just nix the Sustaining Focus I DO have an increase my Enchanting skill to make better foci down the road...

Decisions decisions. I just don't know how much I'm going to want those Foci right out of the gate.

None of the Archetypes start with ANY Foci - so maybe I'm just wasting BP that would be better assigned to Stats and Skills??

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[FastJack]

Not that important at all, IMHO. You can easily make due without it, but the bang for your buck is pretty good at creation.

[baronspam]

So, having never played a Mage before, how important is it to start with Foci?

Currently, I have a Force 2 weapon focus (probably a bit excessive, but it's a style thing, so I'm willing to pay for it),  a Force 2 Power Focus, and a Force 3 Sustaining Focus (Health) - the intent is to maintain Increase Reflexes.

Now, I could tweak some stats down to get enough BP to get another Sustaining Focus for Armor...or I could just nix the Sustaining Focus I DO have an increase my Enchanting skill to make better foci down the road...

Decisions decisions. I just don't know how much I'm going to want those Foci right out of the gate.

None of the Archetypes start with ANY Foci - so maybe I'm just wasting BP that would be better assigned to Stats and Skills??

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

I would keep the sustaining focus for health, as it is really nice to have those extra passes without taking the -2 penalty to your dice pools.  The others seem a bit excessive for a starting character to me.  Keep in mind that new characters are just that, new.  They certainly have some experience, and compaired to Joe wageslave they are freaking incredible, but there is still alot of room to grow as the campaign progresses.  If you have points to spare, that would be one thing, but I as I have started to work with 4th ed I find that I am always super tight on build points when building mages. 

P.S.  Question:  What book is the restricted gear quality in?  I assume that lets you start with gear with a availability higher than 12?

[Rockopolis]

Runner's Companion

[JoeNapalm]

The weapon focus is definitely excessive...but it's a style-over-substance thing...if I start disregarding that, I'd start by dropping the Troll aspects. Heh.

The Power Focus is pretty expensive, but I figure it gives me a +2 on all spellcasting/conjuring for 12BP. Getting that through skills would cost me like 40BP.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[Operator]

Runner's Companion

Page 101, RC. (5 BP)

It will allow you to get one item with Availability up to 20 either during chargen or at a later date. It can be taken up to 3 times.

[Makki]

Foci is usually the only thing mages can really spend money on. after chargen, money AND karma will flow. At chargen you can save the money in BP and use it for skills or so.

[Charybdis]

Foci is usually the only thing mages can really spend money on. after chargen, money AND karma will flow. At chargen you can save the money in BP and use it for skills or so.

I generally concur, but it depends on the campaign.

Rarely do my PC's ever earn enough money to buy a good focus outright. Normally it involves ripping it from the body of a previous combatant....

Karma also is a tight resource for any awakened character *sough* initiation *cough*

However, if you're in a high-budget, solid Karma camping, I would certainly leave the purchase/bonding of foci until after Character generation. It's definitely not a mandatory requirement for any magic PC.

Note: Current PC CAN'T bond foci but is still very effective mage. Foci in general are useful, but not mandatory.