[Retrokinesis]

I was reading the optional rules for karma-based character creation and was wondering about some things...

How exactly do alternate metatypes and Infected and such work under this system? The chart says they have no cost at all but the text says twice the BP cost. Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

[All4BigGuns]

I was reading the optional rules for karma-based character creation and was wondering about some things...

How exactly do alternate metatypes and Infected and such work under this system? The chart says they have no cost at all but the text says twice the BP cost. Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

Metatypes and metavariants cost karma equal to their BP cost. Infected are qualities that don't count toward the maximum positive quality limit.

[emsquared]

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

The system doesn't favor specialization/optimization like BP-Chargen does, so it tends to create more balanced characters (pretty certain you won't end up with any 9 BOD, 9 STR Trolls) - though the choices are still your players. It also counts special attributes towards the Karma limit to Attributes so it can end up gimping Awakened/Technomancers compared to BP.

[All4BigGuns]

Special Attributes being limited in the 'half points into Attributes' does tend to be a common thing to be house ruled away. As does the lack of free Knowledge skill ranks that karma generation has. I highly suggest you use both house rules should you make use of that generation system.

[Retrokinesis]

I was reading the optional rules for karma-based character creation and was wondering about some things...

How exactly do alternate metatypes and Infected and such work under this system? The chart says they have no cost at all but the text says twice the BP cost. Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

Metatypes and metavariants cost karma equal to their BP cost. Infected are qualities that don't count toward the maximum positive quality limit.

Qualities that cost twice their BP rating like metatypes, right? So vampire would be 200 karma?

Special Attributes being limited in the 'half points into Attributes' does tend to be a common thing to be house ruled away. As does the lack of free Knowledge skill ranks that karma generation has. I highly suggest you use both house rules should you make use of that generation system.

I didn't notice either of those, but they seem like pretty obvious rule patches I'm surprised weren't fixed. Thanks!

[RHat]

I was reading the optional rules for karma-based character creation and was wondering about some things...

How exactly do alternate metatypes and Infected and such work under this system? The chart says they have no cost at all but the text says twice the BP cost. Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

Metatypes and metavariants cost karma equal to their BP cost. Infected are qualities that don't count toward the maximum positive quality limit.

Qualities that cost twice their BP rating like metatypes, right? So vampire would be 200 karma?

Special Attributes being limited in the 'half points into Attributes' does tend to be a common thing to be house ruled away. As does the lack of free Knowledge skill ranks that karma generation has. I highly suggest you use both house rules should you make use of that generation system.

I didn't notice either of those, but they seem like pretty obvious rule patches I'm surprised weren't fixed. Thanks!

They're that way because the guy who wrote karmagen thought that's the way it should be.  He happens to have been wrong, but all the same it was intentional.

[All4BigGuns]

I was reading the optional rules for karma-based character creation and was wondering about some things...

How exactly do alternate metatypes and Infected and such work under this system? The chart says they have no cost at all but the text says twice the BP cost. Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Also, does anyone have any play experience with the system? Does it create more balanced characters or does it just have its own crazy advancement math to worry about? Thanks!

Metatypes and metavariants cost karma equal to their BP cost. Infected are qualities that don't count toward the maximum positive quality limit.

Qualities that cost twice their BP rating like metatypes, right? So vampire would be 200 karma?

Special Attributes being limited in the 'half points into Attributes' does tend to be a common thing to be house ruled away. As does the lack of free Knowledge skill ranks that karma generation has. I highly suggest you use both house rules should you make use of that generation system.

I didn't notice either of those, but they seem like pretty obvious rule patches I'm surprised weren't fixed. Thanks!

The Infected would cost double yes (since they're qualities), however, the metatypes and metavariants cost the exact same amount as they do under build point.

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
First you must choose metatype or other alternative character
concept (i.e. shapeshi er, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for
metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option
(i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the
BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3.  e Metatype
Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p. 81, SR4A) or the relevant table in
the section describing the new character races in this book provide
your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.

Step 2: Select Qualities
Positive qualities have a Karma cost equal to twice their BP
cost (so BP Cost x 2). Negative qualities return bonus Karma
equal to twice their BP bonus. Normally, characters cannot spend
more than 70 Karma in Positive qualities nor gain more than 70
Karma in Negative qualities. Note that the Infected qualities and
similar racial qualities are an exception to this rule and do not
count against the amount of Karma you may spend on or earn
back through taking qualities.
If the character wishes to be Awakened or a technomancer,
the qualities that grant Magic or Resonance may be taken at this
point as well as any complementary qualities such as Mentor
Spirits and Paragons.

Keep in mind that the two house rules I mentioned are just that, house rules--that just happen to be commonly implemented. They are not published optional rules in any shape or form.

[Glyph]

Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Metatypes get their same bonuses.  The main difference is that Attributes have an exponentially increasing cost in karmagen.  In other words, in build points, an ork starts out with a 4 in Body and you spend 10 BP for each point that you want to increase it.  In karmagen, an ork starts out with a 4 in body, and then you have to pay 25 karma to increase it to 5, 30 more karma to increase it to 6, and so on.  So things like an ork with a Body of 8 or an elf with a Charisma of 7 are more expensive.  It's not like build points, where increasing an Attribute from 1 to 2 costs the same as increasing a troll's Strength from 8 to 9.

While I disagree with how karmagen was originally set up, with metatypes for free, this is the reason it was that way - because metatypes such as trolls had to pay so much more for higher Body and Strength.

[All4BigGuns]

Do you pay for the attribute increases on top of that? It seems like that would make sense if they have no cost but it's not entirely clear.

Metatypes get their same bonuses.  The main difference is that Attributes have an exponentially increasing cost in karmagen.  In other words, in build points, an ork starts out with a 4 in Body and you spend 10 BP for each point that you want to increase it.  In karmagen, an ork starts out with a 4 in body, and then you have to pay 25 karma to increase it to 5, 30 more karma to increase it to 6, and so on.  So things like an ork with a Body of 8 or an elf with a Charisma of 7 are more expensive.  It's not like build points, where increasing an Attribute from 1 to 2 costs the same as increasing a troll's Strength from 8 to 9.

While I disagree with how karmagen was originally set up, with metatypes for free, this is the reason it was that way - because metatypes such as trolls had to pay so much more for higher Body and Strength.

Yeah, that is very true, and it's probably a reason for a third house rule to karma generation where one would basically raise the attributes as though the character were human and apply the bonuses afterward.

[Retrokinesis]

Ah, I guess that explains why my copy says they have 0 cost in the chart. I assume that's an old version they errata'd at some point.

Houseruling it so metatype attributes are added last also makes sense, from a cost-effectiveness standpoint. I'd extend that to Infected and such as well, which would put them on equal footing with characters who were infected during play.

So far we've got:

1. Free Knowledge skill points as standard creation.
2. Magic and Resonance don't count towards attribute-buying limits.
3. Stat modifiers from metatype, etc. are applied after purchasing attributes.

Anything else we need?

[All4BigGuns]

Ah, I guess that explains why my copy says they have 0 cost in the chart. I assume that's an old version they errata'd at some point.

Houseruling it so metatype attributes are added last also makes sense, from a cost-effectiveness standpoint. I'd extend that to Infected and such as well, which would put them on equal footing with characters who were infected during play.

So far we've got:

1. Free Knowledge skill points as standard creation.
2. Magic and Resonance don't count towards attribute-buying limits.
3. Stat modifiers from metatype, etc. are applied after purchasing attributes.

Anything else we need?

It doesn't have to do with any particular generation system, but there is another common house rule. That would be giving characters free Contact points equal to Charisma x 2. I have seen (Charisma + Etiquette) x 2 as well, and I wouldn't doubt if some use either one with a higher multiplier.

[Retrokinesis]

Ah, I guess that explains why my copy says they have 0 cost in the chart. I assume that's an old version they errata'd at some point.

Houseruling it so metatype attributes are added last also makes sense, from a cost-effectiveness standpoint. I'd extend that to Infected and such as well, which would put them on equal footing with characters who were infected during play.

So far we've got:

1. Free Knowledge skill points as standard creation.
2. Magic and Resonance don't count towards attribute-buying limits.
3. Stat modifiers from metatype, etc. are applied after purchasing attributes.

Anything else we need?

It doesn't have to do with any particular generation system, but there is another common house rule. That would be giving characters free Contact points equal to Charisma x 2. I have seen (Charisma + Etiquette) x 2 as well, and I wouldn't doubt if some use either one with a higher multiplier.

Oh, I do Charisma + Intuition. And add Ostracized as a 10-point negative quality removing it. With how vital contacts are I just assumed that was a thing everybody did! Based that off of the old RPG adage "If something is so necessary everyone is going to take it, you may as well give it out for free!"

[All4BigGuns]

Ah, I guess that explains why my copy says they have 0 cost in the chart. I assume that's an old version they errata'd at some point.

Houseruling it so metatype attributes are added last also makes sense, from a cost-effectiveness standpoint. I'd extend that to Infected and such as well, which would put them on equal footing with characters who were infected during play.

So far we've got:

1. Free Knowledge skill points as standard creation.
2. Magic and Resonance don't count towards attribute-buying limits.
3. Stat modifiers from metatype, etc. are applied after purchasing attributes.

Anything else we need?

It doesn't have to do with any particular generation system, but there is another common house rule. That would be giving characters free Contact points equal to Charisma x 2. I have seen (Charisma + Etiquette) x 2 as well, and I wouldn't doubt if some use either one with a higher multiplier.

Oh, I do Charisma + Intuition. And add Ostracized as a 10-point negative quality removing it. With how vital contacts are I just assumed that was a thing everybody did! Based that off of the old RPG adage "If something is so necessary everyone is going to take it, you may as well give it out for free!"

With how expensive contacts are compared to their necessity, you might consider adding at least the x2 multiplier. Also, there's no real need for a new quality for that removal, as you can just add such a removal to Hung Out to Dry negative quality.

[Mithlas]

Hung out to Dry means that the character has contacts, but they aren't talking to you. The points you save by not taking contacts (which is considerable, but have costs all their own) seem plenty to me for a player who chooses not to have contacts on generation. I always recommending having at least one solid 4+ loyalty contact on generation. That level is hard to get in-game (depending on your table), and if you're going to pay for loyalty then pay for something solid.

Bonus karma to contacts = 2 * (Charisma + Etiquette) is an extremely common house-rule. I would actually think less of 5E if they don't at least note it as an optional rule in the core book. Sometimes that multiplier varies if the GM is running a game with contacts being extremely important. Sometimes I've also seen "free fixer" if that fixer is a story-tool to bring the characters together and get things started.

Also: Edge is a special attribute that I've often seen house-ruled to not count to the Half limit on attributes (just like Magic/Resonance), probably because BP does just as well doing that very same thing.

[All4BigGuns]

With the free points for contacts, I personally think it's best if they're spent just like BP spent on contacts would be. The same with house ruling the free Knowledge skills into karma generation, I think it's best if they're free 'rating points' spent on a 1-for-1 basis.